Two Apex Legends characters are LGBTQ, say EA and Respawn

ArchaeEnkidu

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Jan 30, 2018
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I love talking craft, so I'll answer these questions for you.

Basically, Chekhov's Gun. If there's a gun in the first act, then it has to go off in the third act. Don't put anything in that is irrelevant because it bogs down the story and it creates expectations for its use by the viewer. So if being gay has no relevance to the plot, motivation, action, or whatever, just hold on to that information until such time that it becomes relevant. Having a gay boyfriend doesn't mean anything if this boyfriend isn't a character or familiar to the viewer. It's okay for them to be gay and it not be drawn attention to - you just don't write anything that would indicate otherwise. Then, when it becomes important (because being gay is an obstacle, a motivation, or a solution), you can draw attention to it without it feeling like a surprising reveal or an unnecessary bullet point on a list of character attributes.

It's the thing where you have to describe a character without mentioning their job or what they are wearing. If you can only describe a character as 'gay' but can't describe anything else about why that matters, then you've created a stereotype, not a character (much less a gay one).


I've been watching Xabungle, an early 80s giant robot anime made for children, and it's got a surprising amount of nudity in it. There's toplessness is every other episode. Apparently, this was not a problem for children 40 years ago, but we can't even handle that as adults today. If you really want to be blown away, check out Ms. Machiko. Also an anime for children with tons of nudity.

So I think it is a pretty weird idea that there is a wrong way to sexualize a female character because it's obvious that there are societies out there that do not have the same hang ups that we do about it. This means that it is not the act itself which is wrong, but the viewpoints of those judging the act.

However, as a writer, you never want to make something gratuitous (unless gratuitous is your goal - a valid decision). Basically, every work you create has a purpose. Some idea or story that you are trying to convey, and something that is gratuitous draws attention away from the purpose of the work (in the same way as described above with Chekhov's Gun). You have to know when and where to use things so that they enhance a work rather than drown it, and I think Xabungle has been rather illuminating to me in that it absolutely doesn't do this, even though you would think that topless nudity doesn't really have a place in children's giant robot anime. It ultimately doesn't come across as excessive because it is appropriately used - Xabungle is a comedy (and a parody) and it turns out that nudity can be very funny, dramatic, or satirical.


If I were going into a work with the intention of creating a gay character, I would first try to figure out how being gay informs his motivations and personality. Is it an obstacle for advancement? Does he love a character who can't love him back? Is he doing something for the purposes of showing off to another character? In all honesty, I'd probably make his main motivation being his sexuality, but I wouldn't draw attention directly to it (similar to Renly in Game of Thrones) so that the people who are paying attention would be rewarded with a deeper understanding of the character.

Within the world of Apex Legends, there's not much I can think of where it would matter. That's not to say that it couldn't matter. Perhaps there will be some element of plot in the season passes that could make use of this character trait. But since it isn't there yet, I would keep it in my back pocket for the time being. As the writer, I would be aware of him being gay, but I'd also have inside knowledge of a whole host of things that make up his character that the audience just wouldn't care about or would draw the wrong conclusions from. It's my job to put those things into the work where applicable in a way that enhances the work.
You said it better than I could. Excellent post, Sqorin.
 
Feb 6, 2018
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Preposterous ideology? Having a gay character in a game is a preposterous ideology?
An ideology that can be used as a moral weapon to dictate and enforce the traits of fictional characters is pathetic.

It´s implied if you are telling people that they are not being represented unless certain fictional character has certain color, or small tits, or whatever. Guess what, the same way I can identify myself with black characters because of athleticism or rationality (I´m a fan of Neil Degrasse btw) or the tenacity of some caucasic woman like Sgt Ripley, black people or gays can identify themselves with whatever traits they want... but nevertheless, changes are needed because of "our own good".
 
Aug 25, 2018
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Gay people are more fashion oriented. Makes sense to sell outfits. Now where are my ass-less chaps for $18.

Nah seriously, love all people. Gay, trans, black or white. It’s the authoritarian left that is the problem and it’s difficult to divorce even the smallest things from the bigger agenda by those evil fuckers.
 
Likes: Tahj
Jun 22, 2014
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Some of you are missing the point so fucking hard it could circle the earth and come around to hit you in the back of your head. People enjoy playing as characters they share any common trend with. Not because we can only play as characters we're similar to, but it's a nice bonus when it happens and any game that features a fuckton of avatars theoretically should have no issue including a very diverse cast. Is this a marketing strategy? Fuck yes it is, but it's a harmless one that might actually provide some enjoyment to people. Stop chasing ghosts and fighting an irrational war.
 

Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Jun 25, 2018
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Some of you are missing the point so fucking hard it could circle the earth and come around to hit you in the back of your head. People enjoy playing as characters they share any common trend with. Not because we can only play as characters we're similar to, but it's a nice bonus when it happens and any game that features a fuckton of avatars theoretically should have no issue including a very diverse cast. Is this a marketing strategy? Fuck yes it is, but it's a harmless one that might actually provide some enjoyment to people. Stop chasing ghosts and fighting an irrational war.
What part of this brings enjoyment in your eyes?
 
Likes: Tahj
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I really don't care. They can make them all gay or whatever, as long as the game is fun I don't care. I don't play these types of shooters in a way such that I am roleplaying.
 
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Literally every representation of diversity gets called forced by someone on here.

Literally every single time.

I think that’s bullshit, and unfair. It’s a cop-out.
There is a vast difference between including diversity right and forced diversity down people throats.

Just one example of a minority character done right on a game is an adventure called Technobabylon: There is a trans character in this game that you only discover in a casual dialogue that actually makes sense that she is a trans person and it was a nice addition to the story. There are more exemples but this is the first game that came to my mind.

When i mention forced diversity its addind character for sole purpose of filling a "diversity checkbox" that results in poorly written characters or BFV 5 situations where they promised historical fidelity and then for the sake of diversity they done the opposite.

Now in Apex they are just using diversity as a market tool. Redneck explained far better than me on one of his posts the issue with this game.

Some of you are missing the point so fucking hard it could circle the earth and come around to hit you in the back of your head. People enjoy playing as characters they share any common trend with. Not because we can only play as characters we're similar to, but it's a nice bonus when it happens and any game that features a fuckton of avatars theoretically should have no issue including a very diverse cast. Is this a marketing strategy? Fuck yes it is, but it's a harmless one that might actually provide some enjoyment to people. Stop chasing ghosts and fighting an irrational war.
I think you are the one who is missing the point, no one is fighting an irrational war here (aside from people who want the game to bomb maybe). We are just talking about how weird is the situation that devs are marketing things like "look at my game, we have minority people and plenty of diversity here!".
 
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Likes: Tahj
Dec 3, 2018
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Some of you are missing the point so fucking hard it could circle the earth and come around to hit you in the back of your head. People enjoy playing as characters they share any common trend with. Not because we can only play as characters we're similar to, but it's a nice bonus when it happens and any game that features a fuckton of avatars theoretically should have no issue including a very diverse cast. Is this a marketing strategy? Fuck yes it is, but it's a harmless one that might actually provide some enjoyment to people. Stop chasing ghosts and fighting an irrational war.
So, given that the majority of their audience is not non-binary, gay, or black women, this means that in the desire to provide characters that are like their players, they've made white male hetrosexual characters (representing the vast, vast, so vast it is not even funny majority of their players, customers, and influencers) easily accessible so that they may too enjoy the pleasure of such a bonus, right?

The fact that they made the only white male character literally toxic and behind a paywall basically removes all rational defense of the representation argument. Either they were trying to be representative and failed spectacularly to represent their ACTUAL audience, or they are being purposefully antagonistic against their audience using representation as a weapon against them.
 
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Incorrect, Neogaf is way more enjoyable now all the SJWs fled to the dreadful little island they are currently residing, attacking their own if anyone dares slip up and say something like Caitlyn Jenner isn't a beautiful hero.

You might need to join them, people arent interested callout posts and playing the victim.
Still plenty of sjw soy boys here. This thread is proof.
 
Likes: angelic
Feb 6, 2018
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Some of you are missing the point so fucking hard it could circle the earth and come around to hit you in the back of your head. People enjoy playing as characters they share any common trend with. Not because we can only play as characters we're similar to, but it's a nice bonus when it happens and any game that features a fuckton of avatars theoretically should have no issue including a very diverse cast. Is this a marketing strategy? Fuck yes it is, but it's a harmless one that might actually provide some enjoyment to people. Stop chasing ghosts and fighting an irrational war.
But there is damage done here, there is not an extremely sexy woman, nor an alpha male. It´s dumb that you can find them in any street, but not in a game that claims to be inclusive. If there was no artificial interference, you bet they would be here, in whatever color the artist conceived them.
 
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Jun 13, 2018
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LBGTW representation in gaming is going to happen, plan accordingly
Why are you saying this like it's some revolutionary thing? This has happened before in gaming and was done way better and no-one called them out. Two weeks ago I played a game that had a trans character in the game and the character was not only really well written overall but the reveal was also relevant to the story.
Also is the W in LGBTW a mispelling or the new term now? It' legitimately hard to keep up with this.
 
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The game is going to come across incredibly anti-Semitic to me until they let me know explicitly that there is Jewish representation. Fuck Apex Legends for directly supporting nazis.
 
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Likes: lukilladog
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Why are you saying this like it's some revolutionary thing? This has happened before in gaming and was done way better and no-one called them out. Two weeks ago I played a game that had a trans character in the game and the character was not only really well written overall but the reveal was also relevant to the story.
Also is the W in LGBTW a mispelling or the new term now? It' legitimately hard to keep up with this.
Not only that, but LGBT has always had a presence in game development. One of the absolute most famous early video game designers is Dan/Danielle Bunten (of M.U.L.E. fame) and literally nobody had a problem with this. And there are literally hundreds of LGBT characters throughout video gaming. Nobody is arguing that Ultima 7 was a terrible game because the Avatar could bang prostitutes of either gender. There was no uproar with the explicitly homosexual undertones in Phantasmagoria. These things happened and nobody really cared, because there wasn't some new wave of political correctness forcing people to obsess over these things (or the lack thereof).

Gaming has ALWAYS been inclusive because it was made up of social outcasts who were joined together by a shared love of something most people just didn't get. But somewhere along the line, a bunch of mean girls came in and decided that we are all -isms and need to be schooled in true acceptance... by not accepting any of us, our hobby, and certainly not our history together.
 

Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Jun 25, 2018
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Unknown Body, Proxima Centauri, 4th O.B.
"People enjoy playing as characters they share any common trend with."

Fucking read
First post, 4 year old account and i need to fucking read? Mind your tone plz.

So the enjoyment part is purely because the discussion is a common trend. Now why is it a trend? Surely its not because of marketing devices like these...
 

Makariel

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Jan 14, 2018
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Seems like the marketing works, 10 million players is quite impressive in the already crowded BR genre.

I don't give a rats ass what gender, sexual orientation or political motivation an avatar in my shooty-shooty game has, I'm just here for the violence.

 

Mista

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Nov 21, 2014
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I never understood this. Out of nowhere “Hey, he’s gay and she’s gay okay?” Umm does it serve anything in the story or just trying to get the love and attention of the LGBT and SJW communities? Cheap.
What about the Robot 🤖
He might be a transgender let’s wait and see mate
 
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forced diversity down people throats.
A single line in a bio and one mention about the "non-binary" character in another interview article is diversity forced down peoples throats? Come on, that's reaching. If there was a huge EA press release with this at the forefront, then maybe I'd agree but there isn't. A large percentage of players aren't gonna read the bio or interview and, as far as I know, there isn't anything when you boot up the game that goes "Btw this character is gay and this character is non-binary" is there?
 
Likes: Pavaloo
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A single line in a bio and one mention about the "non-binary" character in another interview article is diversity forced down peoples throats? Come on, that's reaching. If there was a huge EA press release with this at the forefront, then maybe I'd agree but there isn't. A large percentage of players aren't gonna read the bio or interview and, as far as I know, there isn't anything when you boot up the game that goes "Btw this character is gay and this character is non-binary" is there?
Yeah i guess i exaggerated a bit there, sorry not my intention

Just used it as an example in general though
 

Hudo

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A thought occurred to me: Does this robot character identify as something? It would be hilarious if the only LGBTQ character would be that robot.
 
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cormack12

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I love talking craft, so I'll answer these questions for you.
This is an excellent post. Glad to see it getting likes. However, @Lionel Richie does make a good point (not just abut Endless Love) but also about players wanting to play as something they can identify with. I think the balance and marketing is completely wrong around these two clashing issues. and it's ultimately causing friction. However, I identify as much with Marcus Fenix as some random Asian guy, despite being white. And that;s the fallacy of the argument. I don't identify with Marcus, Geralt, Nate etc. They don't 'represent' me just because they are white. That's a racist assumption in itself. Are you telling me I can't identify with Max in LiS as a coming of age story and high school drama? Don't be stupid.

I want to go back to two characters in Tomb Raider first. In the reboot, Jonah and Reyes:



Both these characters are at first glance in that 'diversity' demographic. They were not highly touted, they were released as part of the game without fanfare or anyone trying to score points for including a black female and New Zealander-cum-Hawaiian islander. The backlash was immense on both these 'stereotypical' characters. They were as fleshed out as any other character and also had collectibles explaining the back story. But they were reduced down to what people saw. Because they didn't have a blurb and didn't pass the purity test. They were just called out as being poorly written, cardboard characters - the de facto statements when no real arguments can be made.


Next, I want to move onto the Apex characters. So now we know one is gay and one is non binary. However, what is coming out the woodwork - that the names are racist, that it's a good start, there's debate about oriental asian and oriental black. The purity council has convened. The reason why characters above from TR are dismissed is because there wasn't a fanfare about them, so the community sneer at the effort because they don't feel like they have influence. All the while those who do release stuff and make the effort are greeted with:



Meanwhile the marketing arms of these companies in order to stifle the online purity council release promotional material to satiate the thirst of these people. The problem is that it's starting to piss off the core audiences who care more about the game is good and actual gameplay elements and dynamics are improved and evidenced. It used to be a zero cost strategy for companies but now 'go woke, get broke' is being used more for a reason. It's just turning people away, because passively aggressively it's saying this is our target audience first and foremost, not the folks that have been playing and supporting for years who don't really care.
 
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zcaa0g

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Sep 3, 2018
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So where are the Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, tree hugger and scientologist characters? I mean if they are going to do the disingenuous inclusion for inclusion's sake, might as well go all out.
 
Likes: Tahj
Dec 1, 2018
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I simply don't play most modern games because of this LGBT stuff n I don't watch any series only anime don't watch most new films I sometimes just google old 90s n 80s films n don't even know when or how people wanted this LGBT trend and as a black man I never asked to be represented if you don't want to represent me then don't art shouldn't beg for representations n I've never asked to be James Bond even if Tarzan is a white dude talking to animals in the Congo, what's happening here isn't about black rights or gay rights since ever it's always been about European n American culture, basically it's the whole freedom democracy Freemasons founding fathers ideology of a utopia where everybody can be what he wants an ideology of a common pop culture villain ironic, now they're having dogs getting sexual rearrangement surgeries, humans, while combating female genital mutilation, or calling prostitution illegal and following pornstars on Twitter n call those young teenagers getting abused on set actors, it's always the same thing Europeans have always thought themselves as superior and right it goes way back before hitler and nazi eugenics and they won't stop would use everything in their power whether it's games films or anything and I'm afraid there's no way to fix Europeans and there's no way to fix Africans we'll always be black savages to which I know people think of me that way but it is what it is there's nothing to do its out of control now they got kids playing propaganda already
 
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From the comments, I’m seeing a clear pattern that people are against the concept of the weaponisation of identiy politics, e.g. the well intentioned #meetoo gone sour, the constant virtue signalling like some kind of mea culpa prair, on and on, and the absolute hate mobbing, cause for firing or deplatforming by the extreme progressives.

Yes it’s rightfully deplorable to any level headed individual

There is no Ill will to sexual identities, or genders, or other.
 
Jun 22, 2014
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So, given that the majority of their audience is not non-binary, gay, or black women, this means that in the desire to provide characters that are like their players, they've made white male hetrosexual characters (representing the vast, vast, so vast it is not even funny majority of their players, customers, and influencers) easily accessible so that they may too enjoy the pleasure of such a bonus, right?

The fact that they made the only white male character literally toxic and behind a paywall basically removes all rational defense of the representation argument. Either they were trying to be representative and failed spectacularly to represent their ACTUAL audience, or they are being purposefully antagonistic against their audience using representation as a weapon against them.
You clearly know more about this game than I do lol but yeah, if the only white man is like you described I could see how that wouldn't be ideal and needlessly antagonistic. I was mainly referring to the non-issue of having LGBT characters.

But there is damage done here, there is not an extremely sexy woman, nor an alpha male. It´s dumb that you can find them in any street, but not in a game that claims to be inclusive. If there was no artificial interference, you bet they would be here, in whatever color the artist conceived them.
You're asking for the cast diversity to be set accordingly to your preferences while criticizing the game for having the cast diversity set accordingly to someone else's preference.
 
Likes: JareBear
Dec 1, 2018
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From the comments, I’m seeing a clear pattern that people are against the concept of the weaponisation of identiy politics, e.g. the well intentioned #meetoo gone sour, the constant virtue signalling like some kind of mea culpa prair, on and on, and the absolute hate mobbing, cause for firing or deplatforming by the extreme progressives.

Yes it’s rightfully deplorable to any level headed individual

There is no Ill will to sexual identities, or genders, or other.
It's the same old story, we've always been told about Europeans growing up and as kids we never believed what we heard but soon as we got older we started understanding what our parents told us n it's not a false stereotype Europeans are simply weird people n as for me I've seen enough nothing surprises me anymore, it's always the same they just can't leave shit and they think they know it all all the while putting the world in danger every fucking century.
 

Tesseract

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i'll say this tho, apex is probably the best competitive shooter i've ever played

it's probably even better than natural selection, which is something i thought i'd never say
 
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ITT: eight fucking pages of people who „do not care“.
Indeed.

This is exactly why they do it. It's free advertising, whilst also breeding fanaticism for a brand, which is exactly how you convince people to spend more money on your product.

Vast majority of those posts read like:

“Man I don’t care, let me now explain why I care.”
I made a comment earlier in the thread asking people why they care so much. Nobody seems to have provided an answer.
 
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From the comments, I’m seeing a clear pattern that people are against the concept of the weaponisation of identiy politics, e.g. the well intentioned #meetoo gone sour, the constant virtue signalling like some kind of mea culpa prair, on and on, and the absolute hate mobbing, cause for firing or deplatforming by the extreme progressives.

Yes it’s rightfully deplorable to any level headed individual

There is no Ill will to sexual identities, or genders, or other.
N what were generally against is politics we just want to take a controller and play a game same as a movie If I go to watch face off its face off if I'm ordering chips it's chips don't give me rainbow chips I don't need your politics if u feel like choping ur dick off go do it if u feel like sitting on a dildo go do it but no you won't Europeans don't like being crazy alone they want everybody else to do it from America to Somalia just for the sake of saying I'm right n they do this time n time again whether it's liberals or conservatives
 
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Indeed.

This is exactly why they do it. It's free advertising, whilst also breeding fanaticism for a brand, which is exactly how you convince people to spend more money on your product.


I made a comment earlier in the thread asking people why they care so much. Nobody seems to have provided an answer.
A line on a bio page sure is aggressive marketing
 
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N what were generally against is politics we just want to take a controller and play a game same as a movie If I go to watch face off its face off if I'm ordering chips it's chips don't give me rainbow chips I don't need your politics if u feel like choping ur dick off go do it if u feel like sitting on a dildo go do it but no you won't Europeans don't like being crazy alone they want everybody else to do it from America to Somalia just for the sake of saying I'm right n they do this time n time again whether it's liberals or conservatives
...wut?

A line on a bio page sure is aggressive marketing
They're a multi billion dollar business. Every single move they make is marketing.

If it suddenly became fashionable to wear black and walk around graveyards and cut your wrists tomorrow, 90% of characters would be designed that way. I know. I lived through that fad.

Cheap advertising is the holy grail for businesses. The nature of the internet means that yes, even a single line of text becomes news story nowadays. They are fully aware of this fact.

All the arguing from both sides does nothing but increase the veracity of the potential fans that do become interesting, increasing their loyalty of the brand due to a perceived belief that they have to "defend" it from the "haters". You just have to look at Overwatch for the perfect example of this.
 
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ITT: eight fucking pages of people who „do not care“.
None of the posts are criticizing the character’s sexuality itself - nobody is arguing that Gibraltar shouldn’t be gay, we don’t care about that - but are criticizing how hamfisted and ideological the weaponized identity politics is.

You are intentionally conflating two separate issues in a straw man attempt to dismiss the actual problem by pretending it is instead a different, more easily dismissed problem. Either this is intentional, which makes you disingenuous and kind of a dick, or it is your mistake, which means you have the reading comprehension of a third grader and should probably stay out of the big boy conversations.