Still plenty of sjw soy boys here. This thread is proof.
You forgot "cuck" and "beta".
Still plenty of sjw soy boys here. This thread is proof.
Cheap advertising is the holy grail for businesses. The nature of the internet means that yes, even a single line of text becomes news story nowadays. They are fully aware of this fact.
All the arguing from both sides does nothing but increase the veracity of the potential fans that do become interesting, increasing their loyalty of the brand due to a perceived belief that they have to "defend" it from the "haters". You just have to look at Overwatch for the perfect example of this.
I never said it was "aggressive" advertising. I said it was free advertising. They added the word, not me.While I agree with this, that still doesn't make it "aggressive" marketing.
Huh?Stay mad.
What do you mean certain people? You can take that racist dog whistle somewhere else.Makes you realize how much "certain" people actually do care.
I made a comment earlier in the thread asking people why they care so much. Nobody seems to have provided an answer.
None of the posts are criticizing the character’s sexuality itself - nobody is arguing that Gibraltar shouldn’t be gay, we don’t care about that - but are criticizing how hamfisted and ideological the weaponized identity politics is.
You are intentionally conflating two separate issues in a straw man attempt to dismiss the actual problem by pretending it is instead a different, more easily dismissed problem. Either this is intentional, which makes you disingenuous and kind of a dick, or it is your mistake, which means you have the reading comprehension of a third grader and should probably stay out of the big boy conversations.
Lol, this drivel reads like some shit from Sargon of Applebee’s.
„Weaponized Identity politics“ rofl
Can you actually counter his point?
I don’t care to. If he wanted to have a genuine discussion, he would have not proceeded to insult me, so he can just type his copypasta from KiA into the void. Similar „points“ have been adressed ad nauseam in most of the other „someone is gay in a videogame“ threads that seem to pop up on a weekly basis.
Cool, so you literally can't and are instead running away. Gotcha.
Yeah i guess i exaggerated a bit there, sorry not my intention
Just used it as an example in general though
Virtue signalling isn't marketing. Marketing is about reaching a particular audience and making them excited about your product. How is making the only white male character unaccessible to a primarily white male audience marketing? It is entirely about saying "ooh, look at us and how progressive and deep we are". That's about them, not about their audience.Putting gay people in video games is not in any way different than putting any other demographic in videogames because of marketing reasons.
First of all, do you think that the demographic that the developers or their marketing division of Apex Legends think are most likely to buy their games the LGBT community?Nearly all video game protagonists are only representations of the demographic that the developers or their marketing division think will or should most likely buy their games. That’s why you see young boys saving the world with a bunch of friends in JRPGs, that’s why you have mostly power fantasies in US made games, that’s why you’re generally a young girl in games about horses.
Again, what is the specific demographic of an entirely minority cast with two gay characters and a non-binary character in a military online shooter, and do they buy a lot of games?Nearly ALL videogame protagonists are pure pandering and meant to interest a specific demographic.
I have no problems with gay characters. I have a problem with ideologues who put righteous ahead of right. There is absolutely a way for Apex Legends to have gay and even non-binary characters in an appropriate way that enforces the themes of the work and delivers a stronger game. They, however, did not do it that way.HOWEVER there’s only ever a big outrage about this type of marketing ploy when it’s about someone being gay on this board or KiA or similar places where people need to signal about the „evul Ess Jay Dubyas“. It’s the equivalent of Reseteras „Oh noes, AGAIN the protagonists is an evul white man“.
Again, what people don't care about and what this thread is about is two entirely separate things. The fact that you continually attempt to conflate the two is doing little to give you the high ground you seem to think you deserve.It’s dumb shit and sperging about how you all „don’t care“ and then spent 8 pages on this forum not caring at all, like, really, is just a big fucking joke.
It wouldn't happen so often if the god damned game developers took a fucking second and learned how to do their jobs effectively. I could think of a thousand ways to do exactly what Apex Legends thought it was doing in a respectful, honest way that would not have yielded a thread like this. People should not walk away from representation - actual representation - wondering how it is going to fuck up the game's future.It’s even more of a joke if you look at how often THIS EXACT SAME THREAD pops up here.
I love talking craft, so I'll answer these questions for you.
Basically, Chekhov's Gun. If there's a gun in the first act, then it has to go off in the third act. Don't put anything in that is irrelevant because it bogs down the story and it creates expectations for its use by the viewer. So if being gay has no relevance to the plot, motivation, action, or whatever, just hold on to that information until such time that it becomes relevant. Having a gay boyfriend doesn't mean anything if this boyfriend isn't a character or familiar to the viewer. It's okay for them to be gay and it not be drawn attention to - you just don't write anything that would indicate otherwise. Then, when it becomes important (because being gay is an obstacle, a motivation, or a solution), you can draw attention to it without it feeling like a surprising reveal or an unnecessary bullet point on a list of character attributes.
It's the thing where you have to describe a character without mentioning their job or what they are wearing. If you can only describe a character as 'gay' but can't describe anything else about why that matters, then you've created a stereotype, not a character (much less a gay one).
I've been watching Xabungle, an early 80s giant robot anime made for children, and it's got a surprising amount of nudity in it. There's toplessness is every other episode. Apparently, this was not a problem for children 40 years ago, but we can't even handle that as adults today. If you really want to be blown away, check out Ms. Machiko. Also an anime for children with tons of nudity.
So I think it is a pretty weird idea that there is a wrong way to sexualize a female character because it's obvious that there are societies out there that do not have the same hang ups that we do about it. This means that it is not the act itself which is wrong, but the viewpoints of those judging the act.
However, as a writer, you never want to make something gratuitous (unless gratuitous is your goal - a valid decision). Basically, every work you create has a purpose. Some idea or story that you are trying to convey, and something that is gratuitous draws attention away from the purpose of the work (in the same way as described above with Chekhov's Gun). You have to know when and where to use things so that they enhance a work rather than drown it, and I think Xabungle has been rather illuminating to me in that it absolutely doesn't do this, even though you would think that topless nudity doesn't really have a place in children's giant robot anime. It ultimately doesn't come across as excessive because it is appropriately used - Xabungle is a comedy (and a parody) and it turns out that nudity can be very funny, dramatic, or satirical.
If I were going into a work with the intention of creating a gay character, I would first try to figure out how being gay informs his motivations and personality. Is it an obstacle for advancement? Does he love a character who can't love him back? Is he doing something for the purposes of showing off to another character? In all honesty, I'd probably make his main motivation being his sexuality, but I wouldn't draw attention directly to it (similar to Renly in Game of Thrones) so that the people who are paying attention would be rewarded with a deeper understanding of the character.
Within the world of Apex Legends, there's not much I can think of where it would matter. That's not to say that it couldn't matter. Perhaps there will be some element of plot in the season passes that could make use of this character trait. But since it isn't there yet, I would keep it in my back pocket for the time being. As the writer, I would be aware of him being gay, but I'd also have inside knowledge of a whole host of things that make up his character that the audience just wouldn't care about or would draw the wrong conclusions from. It's my job to put those things into the work where applicable in a way that enhances the work.
Basically, Chekhov's Gun. If there's a gun in the first act, then it has to go off in the third act. Don't put anything in that is irrelevant because it bogs down the story and it creates expectations for its use by the viewer. So if being gay has no relevance to the plot, motivation, action, or whatever, just hold on to that information until such time that it becomes relevant. Having a gay boyfriend doesn't mean anything if this boyfriend isn't a character or familiar to the viewer. It's okay for them to be gay and it not be drawn attention to - you just don't write anything that would indicate otherwise. Then, when it becomes important (because being gay is an obstacle, a motivation, or a solution), you can draw attention to it without it feeling like a surprising reveal or an unnecessary bullet point on a list of character attributes.
It's the thing where you have to describe a character without mentioning their job or what they are wearing. If you can only describe a character as 'gay' but can't describe anything else about why that matters, then you've created a stereotype, not a character (much less a gay one).
If I were going into a work with the intention of creating a gay character, I would first try to figure out how being gay informs his motivations and personality. Is it an obstacle for advancement? Does he love a character who can't love him back? Is he doing something for the purposes of showing off to another character? In all honesty, I'd probably make his main motivation being his sexuality, but I wouldn't draw attention directly to it (similar to Renly in Game of Thrones) so that the people who are paying attention would be rewarded with a deeper understanding of the character.
Okay
I think most people consider gay characters to be unremarkable at this point. There's been literally hundreds of them across pretty much every genre, so it, in itself, is not an accomplishment or a particularly noteworthy addition to a game.While I do understand how you might feel making a character gay can feel like a bullet point on a list of character attributes, I would argue that to really move forward in making gay characters feel as unremarkable as they should, most of the time being gay shouldn't be an obstacle, motivation, or solution, it should just be.
If it doesn't matter, it shouldn't be brought up because it brings with it expectations that it will be of use. For instance, have you ever watched a movie where there is a male and female lead and then ended up surprised when they don't get together? It feels weird, doesn't it? Like, there's nothing weird about a platonic relationship between two coworkers, and yet, we are conditioned to think that if two attractive members of the opposite sex get together on screen, there will be a love story there. And for good reason. The love story appears so frequently because it gives the characters a reason to be together, a goal to strive for, a reason for the main storyline to be an obstacle in their life, and it gives an emotionally resonant conclusion that causes a permanent, positive change to their lives as a result of claiming victory over whatever challenge.It's odd for this game, because sexuality doesn't matter AT ALL to the in-game content, but characters shouldn't need a reason to be gay, anymore than they should need a reason to have green eyes or brown hair.
Specifically, in the case with Apex Legends, it feels like a death from a thousand paper cuts. That is, if it was just one gay character, sure, fine. If it was just one black woman, great. If one character was gender unspecified. Whatever. But it's all of these things, along with a lack of other things, which makes it feel really pushy. It's like trying to get into something with a big flashing sign that says "DIVERSITY, BITCH! DEAL WITH IT!" And you are like, what the fuck did I do?See, and I would disagree with this. If you can't explain why being gay matters to the story you're telling, that means you don't consider their sexuality to be a character defining aspect, which ultimately is the goal of every person who is for diversity and against identity politics, wouldn't you agree?
For me, it's just a relevance thing. If people are drawing attention to things that are irrelevant than I can't help but wonder why they failed so spectacularly at making it relevant when they easily could have.Why should being gay always be presented as an obstacle or character motivation in 2019, let alone in a fictional future world where people in all likelihood care even less about this than we would? Not that I'm saying that you can't write gay characters where their sexuality is a motivation or an obstacle, but it would be nice to see it much more often essentially not matter in video games, and movies, and novels, just like it shouldn't matter in real life.
Why are you here when you think this site is beyond repair and your only recent contributions are about blanket insulting entire groups?Still plenty of sjw soy boys here. This thread is proof.
Vast majority of your posts read like:Vast majority of those posts read like:
“Man I don’t care, let me now explain why I care.”
Do you really need to highlight gender differences as a form of PR?Indeed.
This is exactly why they do it. It's free advertising, whilst also breeding fanaticism for a brand, which is exactly how you convince people to spend more money on your product.
I gave an answer, albeit not directly to you. Look it up. People care because that's what these highlights want you to do. To care and think about it, to think about the inclusion of LGBTQ characters like its a worthwhile thing.I made a comment earlier in the thread asking people why they care so much. Nobody seems to have provided an answer.
No. Which is why it's so baffling that they keep doing so.Do you really need to highlight gender differences as a form of PR?
Mate. I am "one of these groups".When really, why should it be worthwhile? Because they are a minority they need extra attention drawn to them? How about we accept these groups more as the people they are instead of directing attention, no matter how small, to them?
So its mostly related to society's importance on these issues, which is why gaming enterprises jump into it.No. Which is why it's so baffling that they keep doing so.
The moment it stops being "trendy" to do this, they're start inserting something else. They're not doing it because they care. They're a businesses. Businesses only care about the money you give them, and they will stop doing this if it ever stops making them money.
No need to turn hostile.Mate. I am "one of these groups".
Then the answer is simple: Because businesses promote this because there is good money involved. As a byproduct, people will criticize it. But as you say, businesses don't care, because of the money.And I completely agree. Which is why "Apex has LGBTQ+ characters" is insulting PR. Which is exactly what I was asking in the beginning. Why do people care so much that they're there? I never said those characters shouldn't be there. I'm all for it. Their inclusions shouldn't be a news story though. It's insulting to us.
It seems more like you actually care more than we do.Looks like alot of people that say they don't care, actually do care.
And the obsession with people hating people that identify with what they actually are is an utter blight!
It seems more like you actually care more than we do.
Uh how so?
The people who “don’t care,” and “don’t see why it’s needed” are posting more than anyone else.
Lol at the troll who liked your post.
Amazing this shit is still ongoing, and amazing that it’s gonna happen every single time a Dev makes this choice, no matter how subtle.
Outrage Cycle Forever
JareBear, I just checked your post history and I see you have posted over 30 times today, and over 90 times yesterday. I'm starting to think you might have a problem. You seem to becoming increasingly unhinged and your posts are almost entirely low quality these days. You know, maybe a hobby or something away from the computer would do you a little good?Uh how so?
The people who “don’t care,” and “don’t see why it’s needed” are posting more than anyone else.
Lol at the troll who liked your post.
Amazing this shit is still ongoing, and amazing that it’s gonna happen every single time a Dev makes this choice, no matter how subtle.
Outrage Cycle Forever
Who cares if the characters are LGBTQ?
Who cares if the characters are LGBTQ? As far as I can tell it has no effect on the game and the game seems to be wildly popular. If the Devs wanna put some diversity in their game then thats fine with me. Its their game.
Also I would rather not comb through 9 pages of this thread given how Gaf usually responds to this kind of thing. Is anyone saying they aren't gonna play the game due to this?
Who cares if the characters are LGBTQ? As far as I can tell it has no effect on the game and the game seems to be wildly popular. If the Devs wanna put some diversity in their game then thats fine with me. Its their game.
Also I would rather not comb through 9 pages of this thread given how Gaf usually responds to this kind of thing. Is anyone saying they aren't gonna play the game due to this?
Is this really necessary, seems like a cheap appeal to everyone tactic. What's next?
The post before yours was 5 hours earlier and the thread was off the front page. You resurrected the thread to complain that the thread wasn't dead yet?We still talking about this? Just go play Apex and have fun.
This is good. Representation is good even if it's just for the sole reason that it challenges assumptions of every character just being a typical straight. It's pretty funny; you don't really see Reddit bois saying "Okay... who cares?!" when a developer reveals that a character has a wife and kids. They just kind shrug their shoulders and say "Yeah, this matches what I assumed to be true in the first place! Go forth mighty developer with your cleverly crafted storyline!"
So by that standard it does not need to be specifically mentioned anywhere outside of the game. Yet that is exactly what is happening. Therefore these minorities get special recognition. Do you think that really helps their cause? That they are seen as special people that need recognition?If the sexual orientation of a video game character doesn't matter to you, that's fine. But for the minorities that have never been able to play as a Polynesian character, or a gay character, or a non-binary character in a video game, it can make a world of difference for them to feel like they are represented and included in mainstream media.
Ironic how so many people are posting "What does it matter?"
It actually does matter to you, since you now know to use they/them pronouns when referring to Bloodhound.
Also, Respawn didn't "announce" that two characters are LGBT. That information was already in the respective character bios for Gibraltar and Bloodhound as soon as the game was available. They simply confirmed the questions that players had.
If the sexual orientation of a video game character doesn't matter to you, that's fine. But for the minorities that have never been able to play as a Polynesian character, or a gay character, or a non-binary character in a video game, it can make a world of difference for them to feel like they are represented and included in mainstream media.
I'm not going to play this game because of this pandering horseshit. The fuck relevance does sexual orientation have in a FIRST PERSON GOD-DAMN SHOOTER BATTLE ROYALE?
This is where the NPC meme comes from. A dozen different people all posting the exact same thing as if it were some revelation from on high, when it has been addressed a dozen different times. People do not care about the gender or sexuality of the characters themselves, but about the agenda that has chosen to focus on and promote their gender and sexuality.Ironic how so many people are posting "What does it matter?"
Again, if representation is that important, the fact that the character that represents their primary audience is behind a paywall is intentionally insulting. They want to force white men to play as black women. It is basically representation rape. Revenge for what they see as decades of representation rape where minorities were forced to play as white men. That’s a fucked up world view.If the sexual orientation of a video game character doesn't matter to you, that's fine. But for the minorities that have never been able to play as a Polynesian character, or a gay character, or a non-binary character in a video game, it can make a world of difference for them to feel like they are represented and included in mainstream media.
I'm not going to play this game because of this pandering horseshit. The fuck relevance does sexual orientation have in a FIRST PERSON GOD-DAMN SHOOTER BATTLE ROYALE?
This is where the NPC meme comes from. A dozen different people all posting the exact same thing as if it were some revelation from on high, when it has been addressed a dozen different times. People do not care about the gender or sexuality of the characters themselves, but about the agenda that has chosen to focus on and promote their gender and sexuality.
If you don’t want people to think you are reading canned responses, you should probably read the thread and see if what you are planning to post hasn’t already been said, and addressed, a dozen times.
Again, if representation is that important, the fact that the character that represents their primary audience is behind a paywall is intentionally insulting. They want to force white men to play as black women. It is basically representation rape. Revenge for what they see as decades of representation rape where minorities were forced to play as white men. That’s a fucked up world view.