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[Slayven]

Isn't Germany the don of EU's economy? Of course they want to know what they are doing.

 

[Tamanon]

I'm curious to see if this is going to threaten trade agreements between the US and the EU.

Nah, the spying was already approved by the governments involved. Might force a few concessions since it's out in the public to save face though. No biggie.

 

[Jenga]

I love these leaks. Fuck my government for taking part in this shit.

why so soft?

pax americana baby

 

[Deleted member 17706]

This isn't going to end well, I think.

 

[Carnby]

I have a hunch that Obama first learned about it the same time we did. Perhaps in this very thread!

 

[Cow Mengde]

You never know when the Nazi terrorists would come attack America.

 

[mavs]

Nah, it was already approved by the governments involved. Might force a few concessions since it's out in the public to save face though. No biggie.

What? They haven't even begun the negotiations yet.

 

[Tamanon]

What? They haven't even begun the negotiations yet.

I meant the spying.

 

[FoxSpirit]

They're called the 5 eyes for a reason.

And boohooo big bad U.S.A spying on countries. Only if we lived in a world where no country has a spy agency.

It's not about the that, it's about the how and the scale.

I promise to you if the EU had wiretapped the US in this way, America would be all up in arms.

But I wanna thank the US for this, it's so blatantly wrong any European politician suddenly feels his heart beating and his guts alive to stand up against this kind of foreign intrusion. Which is nice because there will be regulations that prevent this from happening inside of the EU in the future, which may or may not have happened. Better work out good privacy laws now than fight for them later.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Imagine how deep corporate espionage might go, especially outside of official operations: meaning you might have official corporate espionage, and people who use their position to steal information obtained through corporate espionage (either through the official channels or their own), in order to sell that information.

Is Apple indirectly spying on Samsung?

 

[NinjaFridge]

Imagine how deep corporate espionage might go, especially outside of official operations: meaning you might have official corporate espionage, and people who use their position to steal information obtained through corporate espionage (either through the official channels or their own), in order to sell that information.

Is Apple indirectly spying on Samsung?

I heard Apple have a patent on corporate espionage.

 

[Timedog]

I'm getting really tired of the "This is what governments do" bullshit. Repeating it 800 times in every thread isn't adding anything to discussion.

 

[DarkFlow]

You guys don't think other countries are doing the same shit to us?

The NSA is Supposed to do these things

While I think other country's TRY, I doubt they are as successful as we are. You don't think we just let people tap into our phones without running defense.

 

[Liha]

Stasi 2.0

"Nobody intends to put up a wall!"
(Walter Ulbricht, Leader of the GDR, June 15th 1961 - 2 months before the Berlin Wall was built)

 

[jimi_dini]

Stasi 2.0

actually literally Stasi's Dream

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/26/195045/memories-of-stasi-color-germans.html

Wolfgang Schmidt was seated in Berlin’s 1,200-foot-high TV tower, one of the few remaining landmarks left from the former East Germany.

...

“You know, for us, this would have been a dream come true,” he said, recalling the days when he was a lieutenant colonel in the defunct communist country’s secret police, the Stasi.

In those days, his department was limited to tapping 40 phones at a time, he recalled. Decide to spy on a new victim and an old one had to be dropped, because of a lack of equipment. He finds breathtaking the idea that the U.S. government receives daily reports on the cellphone usage of millions of Americans and can monitor the Internet traffic of millions more.

East Germany’s Stasi has long been considered the standard of police state surveillance during the Cold War years, a monitoring regime so vile and so intrusive that agents even noted when their subjects were overheard engaging in sexual intercourse. Against that backdrop, Germans have greeted with disappointment, verging on anger, the news that somewhere in a U.S. government databank are the records of where millions of people were when they made phone calls or what video content they streamed on their computers in the privacy of their homes.

Even Schmidt, 73, who headed one of the more infamous departments in the infamous Stasi, called himself appalled. The dark side to gathering such a broad, seemingly untargeted, amount of information is obvious, he said.

“It is the height of naivete to think that once collected this information won’t be used,” he said. “This is the nature of secret government organizations. The only way to protect the people’s privacy is not to allow the government to collect their information in the first place.”

When an ex-Stasi employee is appalled by this, you should probably stop doing what you are doing.

 

[Jenga]

I'm getting really tired of the "This is what governments do" bullshit. Repeating it 800 times in every thread isn't adding anything to discussion.

so is whining about the morals of international espionage

 

[videogamer]

so is whining about the morals of international espionage

Who is whining?

 

[Funky Papa]

Nah, the spying was already approved by the governments involved. Might force a few concessions since it's out in the public to save face though. No biggie.

Governments have a number of treaties that allow to share data with allied nations such as the US, but we don't know the extent of such collaboration. In any case, it seems extremely unlikely they ever agreed to something this big, specially considering that the EU is already skittish of America's eavesdropping due to Echelon and its alledged use for industrial espionage. You just cannot expect any European nation to give America (or any other country, really) the keys to their communications networks.

 

[Nesotenso]

The exempt countries list is easy to come up with because they are members of ECHELON. Where did Der Spigel journalists get this paper ?

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Governments have a number of treaties that allow to share data with allied nations such as the US, but we don't know the extent of such collaboration. In any case, it seems extremely unlikely they ever agreed to something this big, specially considering that the EU is already skittish of America's eavesdropping due to Echelon and its alledged use for industrial espionage. You just cannot expect any European nation to give America (or any other country, really) the keys to their communications networks.

Some unelected (not posturing) people in the EU seem to think its not really that big of a deal

Within senior circles in Brussels, however, it has long been assumed that the Americans were listening to or seeking to monitor EU electronic traffic.

"There's a certain schadenfreude here that we're important enough to be spied on," said one of the officials. "This was bound to come out one day. And I wouldn't be surprised if some of our member states were not doing the same to the Americans."

The documents suggesting the clandestine bugging operations were from September 2010, Der Spiegel said.

A former senior official in Brussels maintained that EU phone and computer systems were almost totally secure but that no system could be immune to persistent high-quality penetration operations.

"I have always assumed that anyone with a decent agency was listening, hacking if they could be bothered," he said. "It doesn't bother me much. Sometimes it's a form of communication."

I agree that they are not making it easy for the US or desiring them to do it. Though the UK might considering how much they hate the EU.

 

[lednerg]

Fuck Snowden. All the blowback his self-righteous horseshit is causing will never be worth it. Similarly, fuck Assange and those in Anonymous trying to force us into some utopian fantasy world where governments have no secrets. Get real. These people are doing way more harm than good. If you want to actually help, then work towards getting the USA PATRIOT Act repealed or toned down, maybe via a grassroots movement focused on that one goal. But quit it with these self-appointed messiahs of truth already; they're not helping.

 

[davepoobond]

While I think other country's TRY, I doubt they are as successful as we are. You don't think we just let people tap into our phones without running defense.

or let people leak the "revelation" that we are spying on everyone, either

 

[Mr Swine]

Fuck Snowden. All the blowback his self-righteous horseshit is causing will never be worth it. Similarly, fuck Assange and those in Anonymous trying to force us into some utopian fantasy world where governments have no secrets. Get real. These people are doing way more harm than good. If you want to actually help, then work towards getting the USA PATRIOT Act repealed or toned down, maybe via a grassroots movement focused on that one goal. But quit it with these self-appointed messiahs of truth already; they're not helping.

I don't think that people want the USA Patriot Act repealed or toned down. If that was the case then stuff like Assange and Snowden revealed would never happen

 

[StopMakingSense]

Let us not forget the ever present threat of German terrorism

 

[lednerg]

I don't think that people want the USA Patriot Act repealed or toned down. If that was the case then stuff like Assange and Snowden revealed would never happen

What I'm talking about is an actual solution, or at least a means to an end. What Assange and company are 'revealing' might be shocking, but it also comes as no surprise since the gov't has given itself the authority to do all this and more in USA PATRIOT Act. Unless and until that policy is addressed (and it'll come up again for renewal in May of 2015) nothing will change and all these revelations will have had no point. We already get that shit's bad, let's move on already with an actual goal in mind. Also, come out of hiding, Snowden, you little queef. Go read up on the Pentagon Papers and see how a man handles being a whistle-blower.

 

[magenta]

If they are spying on industrial centers in Germany then I wonder if they are doing the same in Japan and South Korea.

 

[m3k]

That's fucked... But interesting. I haven't been reading the specifics but is this the sort of thing where phone calls are recorded? Well specific phone calls. It would be interesting to find out how they process that information and how many people are hired to monitor that quantity.

and Germany? I guess for economics/euro/industrial reasons... I want a new book by John le carre to explain it all.

 

[zoku88]

What I'm talking about is an actual solution, or at least a means to an end. What Assange and company are 'revealing' might be shocking, but it also comes as no surprise since the gov't has given itself the authority to do all this and more in USA PATRIOT Act. Unless and until that policy is addressed (and it'll come up again for renewal in May of 2015) nothing will change and all these revelations will have had no point. We already get that shit's bad, let's move on already with an actual goal in mind. Also, come out of hiding, Snowden, you little queef. Go read up on the Pentagon Papers and see how a man handles being a whistle-blower.

This post is absurd.

• "Coming as no surpise" is different from "having evidence" that something is happening. As laws can have multiple valid interpretations, the leaks help us with knowing what interpretation the government is using and the extent of their actions.
• More awareness leads to more action. The EFF recently launched a lawsuit against the gov't, for example. I would wager that the donations that the EFF and ACLU have received have also probably risen
• Another side effect is companies actually petitioning to be able to release statistics on those FISA requests
• Petitions to Congress have also most likely increased, as senators have responded to inquiries about the programs in question
• Since when does "like a man" equal "like an idiot"? There is no obligation to face punishment for breaking unjust laws. Especially when the punishment can be so absurdly high.

Funny you mention the Pentagon Papers, because Ellsberg praised Snowden for his actions...

(he also didn't have to face legal consequences, even if he did give himself up, since he had a mistrial...)

 

[Tamanon]

That's fucked... But interesting. I haven't been reading the specifics but is this the sort of thing where phone calls are recorded? Well specific phone calls. It would be interesting to find out how they process that information and how many people are hired to monitor that quantity.

and Germany? I guess for economics/euro/industrial reasons... I want a new book by John le carre to explain it all.

Seems it's not recording of phone calls, it's the metadata itself.

 

[lednerg]

This post is absurd.

• "Coming as no surpise" is different from "having evidence" that something is happening. As laws can have multiple valid interpretations, the leaks help us with knowing what interpretation the government is using and the extent of their actions.
• More awareness leads to more action. The EFF recently launched a lawsuit against the gov't, for example. I would wager that the donations that the EFF and ACLU have received have also probably risen
• Another side effect is companies actually petitioning to be able to release statistics on those FISA requests
• Petitions to Congress have also most likely increased, as senators have responded to inquiries about the programs in question
• Since when does "like a man" equal "like an idiot"? There is no obligation to face punishment for breaking unjust laws. Especially when the punishment can be so absurdly high.

Funny you mention the Pentagon Papers, because Ellsberg praised Snowden for his actions...

(he also didn't have to face legal consequences, even if he did give himself up, since he had a mistrial...)

There's raising awareness, which is all well and good, and then there's leaking a shitload of information, most of which has nothing to do with one's stated purpose, effectively wasting millions of man hours, billions of dollars, and risking lives just for the sake of doing it. I'm obviously complaining about the latter. There is no reason, for instance, to show the EU exactly how we are spying on their officials here and abroad - it's absolutely pointless and it puts everyone in a shitty position, including the EU. This whole notion that government secrets are always evil is what's absurd. When Ellsberg praised Snowden a few weeks back, it was for exposing the 4th Amendment breaches, which obviously don't pertain to non-US citizens. That's also why I included Assange in my little rant; these people are hurting the cause just to get their little anti-US gov't digs in and it's childish.

 

[numble]

Seems it's not recording of phone calls, it's the metadata itself.

Metadata is for US persons. Foreign persons can have their calls recorded.

 

[Jibbajabbawockky]

Fuck Snowden. All the blowback his self-righteous horseshit is causing will never be worth it. Similarly, fuck Assange and those in Anonymous trying to force us into some utopian fantasy world where governments have no secrets. Get real. These people are doing way more harm than good.

Yeah, people like Snowden maybe at first came across as somewhat sympathetic figures but now that Snowden has clearly blown his load and is just trying to trickle out these other secrets, it just looks like a self centered cry for attention and self preservation in making a name for himself than it is any kind of perceived noble attempt at informing the public.

That guy is finished and he's just trying to wring out his last 15 minutes of fame.

 

[Tamanon]

Metadata is for US persons. Foreign persons can have their calls recorded.

Right, but the article references metadata for this project.

 

[Chichikov]

Seems it's not recording of phone calls, it's the metadata itself.

First of all, we don't know, because the don't tell us, and we also don't know what metadata means in that context.

 

[fritolay]

I think one major concern not many people have talked about, is what happens when the govt doing this and the people involved use the information for economical gain.

Wouldn't people love this information for businesses?

Put it another way. If a govt was monitoring US communications, and then companies from other countries were benefiting from this spying, wouldn't the US be upset? Yes they would, yes it probably happens.

 

[Roche]

I never really realized the degree to which I hate politics until recently.

 

[Tamanon]

First of all, we don't know, because the don't tell us, and we also don't know what metadata means in that context.

Ergo the word "seems". It just doesn't seem feasable to record and use that many calls.

 

[zugzug]

WoW! As an American, I say that America is a bad villainous country. If I were Germany I would just sit down at the table and look at us with cold steely eyes.

What nonsense is it that America doesn't spy on Canada ,Australia, New Zealand, and Great Britian. Yet Germany is to be viewed as such a bad guy. Just wow.

I mean I hate to say it but stuff like this....well anything else said will scare people of past history. I wish the EU would gather up and put out a stronger face and opnion.

How much longer are the leases on all these American bases in Germany?

 

[woo and indeed hoo]

Yeah, people like Snowden maybe at first came across as somewhat sympathetic figures but now that Snowden has clearly blown his load and is just trying to trickle out these other secrets, it just looks like a self centered cry for attention and self preservation in making a name for himself than it is any kind of perceived noble attempt at informing the public.

That guy is finished and he's just trying to wring out his last 15 minutes of fame.

Do you seriously believe that?

Do you really think anyone would make themselves such a target for some sort of fucked up internet infamy?

Really?

From what he has already said, I think he is quite aware of the personal repercussions he will face from what he has done.

He understands that he has already signed his own death sentence, whether literally or figuratively.

 

[Chichikov]

Ergo the word "seems". It just doesn't seem feasable to record and use that many calls.

It will be quite easy to record text messages, emails and location information of phone calls, and if they have a good speech recognition software (which I'm fairly certain they do) so do conversations.

p.s.
It wouldn't shock me if they actually have the ability to store the actual voice conversations, but I wouldn't know for sure, as far as I know there is no off the shelf solutions that is capable of doing that, but I'm almost certain it will be possible in the not so distant future.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

I have a hunch that Obama first learned about it the same time we did. Perhaps in this very thread!

Obama is a GAFer?! Awesome.

actually literally Stasi's Dream

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/26/195045/memories-of-stasi-color-germans.html
When an ex-Stasi employee is appalled by this, you should probably stop doing what you are doing.

Yeah, it's just mind boggling that we're supporting a government that is taking liberties in doing this to us and people from other countries. It's fucking scary. And this just confirms it.

 

[zoku88]

There's raising awareness, which is all well and good, and then there's leaking a shitload of information, most of which has nothing to do with one's stated purpose, effectively wasting millions of man hours, billions of dollars, and risking lives just for the sake of doing it. I'm obviously complaining about the latter. There is no reason, for instance, to show the EU exactly how we are spying on their officials here and abroad - it's absolutely pointless and it puts everyone in a shitty position, including the EU. This whole notion that government secrets are always evil is what's absurd. When Ellsberg praised Snowden a few weeks back, it was for exposing the 4th Amendment breaches, which obviously don't pertain to non-US citizens. That's also why I included Assange in my little rant; these people are hurting the cause just to get their little anti-US gov't digs in and it's childish.

You have no evidence for saying "it wastes money" by making that information public. It also conflicts with an earlier point you made, as you contended that everyone should have known this was going on.

for the eu specifically, who says it's pointless? I don't think it is. I don't believe our government should be doing these things.


The main problem is that the government keeps to many things secret some of them have no need to be secret other than to cover its own ass.

 

[iidesuyo]

I thought it was an open secret that the US spy on the German industry. "Friendship ends when it comes to money."

 

[lednerg]

You have no evidence for saying "it wastes money" by making that information public. It also conflicts with an earlier point you made, as you contended that everyone should have known this was going on.

for the eu specifically, who says it's pointless? I don't think it is. I don't believe our government should be doing these things.


The main problem is that the government keeps to many things secret some of them have no need to be secret other than to cover its own ass.

Why shouldn't our our intelligence community be spying on other countries? Because it's not a 'nice' thing to do or something? So what? The US should not be spying on its own citizens without a court order, that part I obviously agree with, but why should I care about monitoring non-citizens? What's the point of being deaf dumb and blind to the world? That would be a stupidly unnecessary disadvantage to have for no good reason.

I want our intelligence community to know shit that other countries - even our allies - don't want us to know. It's a dangerous world, so fuck being nice. Snowden spilling the beans on our international intel gathering programs is ridiculously naive and reckless and it serves no purpose other than attempting to embarrass the government and screwing up international relations. It's a dick move. He should've stopped when he was ahead.

 

[Acorn]

Some unelected (not posturing) people in the EU seem to think its not really that big of a deal




I agree that they are not making it easy for the US or desiring them to do it. Though the UK might considering how much they hate the EU.

Our main political parties have a hard on for America so I doubt it.

 

[Randolph Freelander]

I saw the Bourne movies.

 

[numble]

Why shouldn't our our intelligence community be spying on other countries? Because it's not a 'nice' thing to do or something? So what? The US should not be spying on its own citizens without a court order, that part I obviously agree with, but why should I care about monitoring non-citizens? What's the point of being deaf dumb and blind to the world? That would be a stupidly unnecessary disadvantage to have for no good reason.

I want our intelligence community to know shit that other countries - even our allies - don't want us to know. It's a dangerous world, so fuck being nice. Snowden spilling the beans on our international intel gathering programs is ridiculously naive and reckless and it serves no purpose other than attempting to embarrass the government and screwing up international relations. It's a dick move. He should've stopped when he was ahead.

I don't understand why the logical conclusion of requiring a court order to monitor non-citizens means that intelligence agencies are "deaf dumb and blind to the world." If the U.S. claims to advocate for and spread human rights around the world, does it not consider unreasonable search and seizure without a warrant to be a human right? Wasn't one of the main reasons for the U.S. Revolutionary War the unreasonable search and seizure of citizens by a foreign power whose Parliament acted for other citizens? If a fundamental tenet of U.S. governance is that there is a judicial check on executive action for all government police and surveillance activity, why do you think that check is unnecessary when it involves foreign citizens? If we don't believe we should "just trust" executive agencies when they operate domestically, why should we "just trust" them when working abroad, especially if even a high school dropout has nearly unfettered access? The history of U.S. executive agency activity in the international arena does not lead one to think that anyone should "just trust" executive agency activity. Even with things like the Patriot Act, you don't need Congressional overhaul to prevent overreach--the agencies need to prove to a judge that what they're doing is proper and doesn't overreach in the interpretations of the law. Once it involves foreign persons, that need for justification and prevention of overreach is thrown out the window, for some reason.

 

[zoku88]

Why shouldn't our our intelligence community be spying on other countries? Because it's not a 'nice' thing to do or something? So what? The US should not be spying on its own citizens without a court order, that part I obviously agree with, but why should I care about monitoring non-citizens? What's the point of being deaf dumb and blind to the world? That would be a stupidly unnecessary disadvantage to have for no good reason.

I want our intelligence community to know shit that other countries - even our allies - don't want us to know. It's a dangerous world, so fuck being nice. Snowden spilling the beans on our international intel gathering programs is ridiculously naive and reckless and it serves no purpose other than attempting to embarrass the government and screwing up international relations. It's a dick move. He should've stopped when he was ahead.

It's cool that you think that, but not everyone agrees with you and the government. I see it as mostly a waste of effort and money.

I don't feel like we should by spying on people who have no realistic chances of endangering our lives.

You say it's a dangerous world, but in reality, the world is pretty non-dangerous, when it comes to American lives. We're far more dangerous to eachother than foreign diplomats are.

And you're right, it probably doesn't help foreign relations. But, guess who that mainly effects? The government. We, the people, will feel exactly zilch of that degradation of the relationships.

 

[Oersted]

I'm curious to see if this is going to threaten trade agreements between the US and the EU.

The deal already has been put between question marks.

 

[Lkr]

I don't think the German government cares nor will they do anything