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U.S. taps half-billion German phone calls, internet links in month: report
- Thread starter Espresso
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Not really. Europeans demonstrate all the time, with success. We get people fired and sometimes even elect different people into power, crazy right?
Very relevant. Shows what you can do with "only metadata".
pigeon interrupted
Member
How far does anybody's concern really reach beyond their front door? Honestly: to the next county/state where hundreds are homeless? To the next country where there are thousands dying from starvation every day?
Personal quality of life, mate. Reality in the developed world - or you could say the world that we have developed. The majority of people are too busy trying to get by; the rest are out enjoying life. How heavy a price would the west be willing to pay for some transient moment of global equilibrium? Not very heavy at all, I would wager. Threaten to take away our cars, guns, mansions, drugs, streaming porno and we would crack. Please god, not xhamster :'( You simply don't rock the boat if you've got your possessions and family in it. And to be honest, none of us has really got it that bad.
There will always be a not so public face to every power base; that's where real power resides innit. Games will be played and there will be room for corruption to grow and flourish. We'll get to a critical point but my guess is it will be superweeds, superbugs, water table pollution, DNA damage, or some other environmental factor that money can't gloss over. The fallout of our corporate/consumer present is accelerating the curve that it is also trying to keep us ahead of, lol.
People need something tangible to adapt to. In the absence of some miracle technology appearing, I hope we return to the oceans from which we crawled, once the sea levels rise and the triffids claim the high lands.
edit:
The problem in a nutshell.
Substitute firearms with immigration and you have the rest of us. So much easier on the neck to look sideways instead of up.
Mammoth Jones
Member
This. This. Jesus fuck, this.
I'm sure Americans would be demonstrating too if we faced anything close to the situations of Greece and Spain. It's not like Europe is doing all that well right now to be held up as some shining beacon of success for America to emulate. For all the, often deserved, crap America gets for social issues, it's not like some european countries don't have their own major immigration issues either.
Bottom line, we all have issues.
If I see one more post saying "Every country spies. Get over it" I am going to burst.
Give evidence or proof of any country doing this and their own citizens will be just as outraged.
How quickly the tune of some nationalists has changed as soon as the focus switched from the U.S. spying on their own citizens to spying on the world. Suddenly republicans are mute about small government and cry for Snowden's head.
Give evidence or proof of any country doing this and their own citizens will be just as outraged.
How quickly the tune of some nationalists has changed as soon as the focus switched from the U.S. spying on their own citizens to spying on the world. Suddenly republicans are mute about small government and cry for Snowden's head.
I assume that if Snowden had information of Russian or Chinese agencies he would have shared those as well. Should he just keep his mouth shut because there are other bad guys as well? Also is it arguable if China and Russia have the capabilities to spy in such a magnitude.
And we simply do not know what will come off all of this, so already crying "this is all for nothing" seems pretty premature.
And the NSA is more than just a "meanie" here. Like already mentioned in this thread it is likely that they are stealing industry secrets from German companies.
This isn't about country vs country, this is about government vs it's people.
We all, regardless of where we come from, have more in common with each other than we do with our governments, and they have more in common with each other than they do with us.
Saying that "other countries do the same" is completely missing the point.
Vaguely suspecting that this has been going on for ages and finally finding some proof of the extent of it are very important differences.
We all, regardless of where we come from, have more in common with each other than we do with our governments, and they have more in common with each other than they do with us.
Saying that "other countries do the same" is completely missing the point.
Vaguely suspecting that this has been going on for ages and finally finding some proof of the extent of it are very important differences.
Are you really suggesting that every other (major) country does not spy? What is it that you think their intelligence services do?
In the US this is a huge distinction. We are always taught that the spy agencies are prohibited from domestic spying. Of course they are doing international spying -- that is why they exist in the first place
I think there is a distinction between spying on governments and spying on private citizens and businesses. This was the very distinction commonly brought up by people distinguishing Chinese spying from American spying.
Vaguely suspecting and having proof are two very different things. Saying other countries do the same thing also completely misses the point. This is not about country vs country but about people vs government. If your government spies on other countries to this extent they WILL also spy on their own people. You can't have it both ways.
Spelling this out for you guys since it keeps getting glossed over:
US government spying on it's own citizens = very bad
US government spying on non-US citizens = so what
There's a difference between the first set of revelations a few weeks back and what this thread is about. Please quit treating the two like they're the same; it makes no sense.
US government spying on it's own citizens = very bad
US government spying on non-US citizens = so what
There's a difference between the first set of revelations a few weeks back and what this thread is about. Please quit treating the two like they're the same; it makes no sense.
Let me spell this out to all you nationalists. This is not ok to whoever you do it to. The U.S. as it is cannot live without trade, just as Germany can't live without trade.
I agree with this. Governments spies on eachother wether they are allies or enemies thats the harsh reality. When a country is starting to spy on everybody wether they are civillian or government, foreign or domestic they are going to far. Pretty soon they will be spying on everyone in the entire world.
I'm not excusing the behavior based on what other countries are doing*, I'm responding to your claim that accusing other countries of the same is baseless. So I'm asking what do you think the intelligence services of those countries do? Why do they exist? The Direction Générale de la Sécurité Extérieure for example
My point is that spying on foreigners is why these agencies exist, so there is nothing to excuse in the first place (unlike Domestic spying). You can take the position that it is bad and uncessary in these times, or it is good and necessary, but everyone knows what these agencies are there for, worldwdie
Air Zombie Meat
Member
No need to spell it out, that much is obvious. Still find it an unpleasant attitude.
Pretty sure you don't know me.
The adult world is an evil place; the best we can do is keep our ears open - even if that means spying on allies. Countless lives have been saved because of our intelligence community doing things we probably wouldn't like knowing about. But the line that our government can never cross is the 4th Amendment - and the PRISM program is skating that line way too much. (EDIT: as far as I know)
perfect haha
That's great that you are not excusing. It's hard to tell when so many others seem to be.
The answer to your question should be pretty obvious though. It's fucking terrible, no matter in what country. The difference is when accusing without evidence or proof, you will just be dismissed as a conspiracy theorist. All of a sudden we have proof but it doesn't matter?
I think they exist to spy on foreign governments, possible terrorist threats and political figures, not to collect volumes of metadata on large swaths of private citizens and private businesses, with no additional check on how deep they can collect if the individual or business happens to be foreign. Even if you required judicial process, I'm sure something like a FISA court would rubber stamp and approve spying on the former, but I doubt they would approve the latter.
It has been happening since medieval courts. And probably before that.
No it doesn't make it 'moral', but there is seriously nothing you can do about it. The only thing that will happen is it will go beyond the veil for another decade or two until the next whistleblower.
The adult world is a place where you realize you can't have big government to spy on other countries while having small government to protect your own. The one comes packaged with the other.
Countless lives have been saved? How many exactly? Which lives? I guess this is still in the name of the "war on terror" then? Good point, two year ago I saw Osama Bin Laden frolicking around in the Black Forest eating sauerkraut.
In the case of 500 million tap ins a month in one of the U.S. biggest allies, there certainly IS something people can do it about it. Whether something WILL be done is another matter.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Gotcha. I'm not really expecting americans to flip out over this compared to other stories but I think they should be able to understand why this bothers people from other countries. The scale of it alone is disturbing.
Brian Fellows
Pete Carroll Owns Me
I bet the porn you enjoy is awesome.
I lol'd
If people can understand the concern over the suspicion that Huawei and ZTE give backdoors to Chinese hackers, and the government/business responses to those concerns, I don't know why people don't understand the concerns over the revelation that American companies are collaborating with American intelligence agencies in handing over data regarding foreigners, with no requirement for a court order.
I completely understand the concerns other have.
I also understand that it's not "American companies" only collaborating with American Intelligence agencies, it's also "German companies" and "German government" doing so. It's kinda the nature of sharing resources. Anger is a perfectly valid response to these allegations, just not the only one someone can have.
The article talks about how these attacks are necessary because it classifies Germany as a "third-class" partner, and how Canada, Australia, Britain and New Zealand were explicitly exempted from spy attacks. And the EU government has said that American intelligence agencies have used spying to help American companies.
Apparently, you're only paying attention to the successful plots against us. I'm not here to be your personal Google, so if you have questions, look 'em up. Also, the only 'big government' I give a shit about is the one that is jerking off multinational corporations - the real kings of the world.
Yes, governments spy on other governments, that's not really surprising. But I guess you can understand the anger in Berlin, for example why is Germany listed as an ally of third degree and is considered a target? Why is it being targeted at the same level as China or Saudi-Arabia? What has Germany exactly done to deserve that? Why are only anglosphere countries listed as allys that are not being spied upon?
My main concern is economic espionage. The USA has a history of stealing data from companies in Europe (Echelon) and gain competitive advantage. It's known that companies in the US and the intelligence services there have a close working realtionship. As I said before, they are going for our source of prosperity and I think that is a very legitimate reason to be angry.
And then there is the issue of PRISM and Tempora. Targeting governments is one thing, but those programs target everyone, private citizens, governments, everyone. And Germany has a bad history with citizens being spied upon. Again, a legitimate reason to be angered about. What do our intelligence services know and why didn't they protect us?
My main concern is economic espionage. The USA has a history of stealing data from companies in Europe (Echelon) and gain competitive advantage. It's known that companies in the US and the intelligence services there have a close working realtionship. As I said before, they are going for our source of prosperity and I think that is a very legitimate reason to be angry.
And then there is the issue of PRISM and Tempora. Targeting governments is one thing, but those programs target everyone, private citizens, governments, everyone. And Germany has a bad history with citizens being spied upon. Again, a legitimate reason to be angered about. What do our intelligence services know and why didn't they protect us?
People keep making this jump to economic espionage. I haven't seen any examples of this happening yet. Do you have some?
Also, it's a little funny to hear people talking about "Why are you spying on us? You should only be spying on the other guys!", as opposed to "Don't spy on anybody" if it's a moral thing. I understand the sentiment, but it's pretty funny.
Economic Rival and the defacto leader of the Euro.
Again not excusing it.
We(Britian) aren't a economic rival. Well, maybe the City I guess, but we freely give away our information no need for clandestine shit.
Edit To use a lame game anaology. You know how you spy on your Allies in civilisation? Same reason.
I can pay attention to unsuccessful plots against the U.S. that make the light of day, but I can't bloody well pay attention to the ones that are as good as made up or there is no information on can I?
Believing that terrorism is the number one threat to the world is the most naive thing I have ever heard. Believing that those terrorist threats are coming from southern Germany is even more ridiculous.
You are not my personal Google, and you are also not my personal psychic. You have to prove to me how dangerous terrorism is, how many terrorist training camps there are in Frankfurt, and then we can have a conversation.
Let me spell this out for you:
Not everyone thinks this.
I don't think this is being done with the best interests of the American public in mind. I think this is being done with the government's interests.
EDIT: I think all of this is the result of the government being unable to graduate from cold war sensibilities.
Exactly! Thank you!
Enercon, Lernout & Hauspie, and Airbus come to mind.
But also look at Section 10.7 of the EU Parliament report, which lists a bunch of cases:
http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep-fin.htm#10
You also need to understand that the context of the privatization of the US military industrial system, where former analysts and officials often end up at defense corporations (this whole thing came about involving an individual who moved between the public and private intelligence spheres) gives people an incentive for abusing their power, especially when they can look at things deeply without any judicial checks.
Spying on EU diplomats/ corporations= saved lives
Ignored clear evidence about 911 and Boston = saved lives
Ah, we're still dealing with the 90's. OK, I can understand why you would automatically assume that's what this is for. I disagree with the belief this is rooted in economic espionage. Was hoping for something more modern, but I won't try to change your mind.
What is it rooted in, then? I'm open to being convinced. What is special about Germany that puts it on the level of China and Saudi Arabia, with intelligence concentrated in industrial centers?
Can you show me where German companies are cooperating with the NSA, like you claimed?
I couldn't tell you, my guess would be that most of the people we work with in Germany are concentrated there, and that's who you keep an eye on. Otherwise, don't you think American companies would be doing much better than they are?
Yeah that would be kind of dumb... why did you just put those words in my mouth?
Again, huh? How about you join the conversation I'm having with you instead of that strawman.
That's right, I'm none of those things. Likewise, you're not paying me enough to write a report for you on why having a robust intelligence gathering community is a good thing.
Not my problem
Still doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the bath water.
Strawman
Cheney and Rumsfeld's hatred of the CIA (stemming from the Cold War) is what led to that administration ignoring the warnings about Bin Laden. The Boston bomber evidence wasn't ignored, there was a clerical error - a misspelling - which fucked that one up.
American corporations are doing great. You might mistake the nature of the US economy and employment with how corporations are doing. The Dow Jones Industrial Average is higher than its been this whole past 10 years, doing better than the DotCom era. NASDAQ Composite index is doing similarly well (10 year high, etc.).
If it's not your problem, you're wasting your time "spelling it out".
Or maybe you haven't realized that the people disagreeing with you actually understand what you're saying, but just don't agree?
Your weak attemp of defending of shitting on freedom rights was it saves lives. Tell me about it, how did spying on diplomats and companies save lives?
You were saying that this is done in the interest of the American public. You attributed this all to the war on terror. So how is spying on Germany helping you with that?
The amount of terrorist plot attempts we actually have any information on is next to none, so the only thing you could of been arguing for were the secret ones that, if I read you correctly, happen everywhere and at all times and means it is absolutely necessary for the NSA to tap in to 500 million German conversations. As long as you think it's good for the U.S. and bad for the rest of the world you don't give a shit though do you? I don't need to know you to call you a nationalist with that sort of sentiment you are presenting us with.
Clutching at straws.
I would advise against making the mistake of substituting stock prices for the health of a company.
Shitting on freedom? Rights? For whom, non-US citizens? You've spun a web of platitudes around yourself so thick that you're implying everybody in the world is an American.
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