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UC4 Director Says They Had To Ask One 'Sexist Focus Tester' To Leave [Spoilers]

The Artisan

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Jul 13, 2014
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I know someone who reacted similarly about the ending and the possible implications of that for the franchise moving forward.
He said, "We already have fucking Tomb Raider, we don't need a female lead in the future."

they actually said that?
 

Plum

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Aug 26, 2015
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holy shit. I haven't laughed this hard in a while. ��

It's even funnier since Uncharted 4 is (hopefully) the last game in the series.

"I'm done with this video game franchise because of something at the very end of the final game! I won't even replay it to get the platinum I'm so enraged!"
 

Alex_Mexico

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Mar 13, 2014
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OK, Maybe I worded it poorly...this is maybe better

Nadine just does not work, neither does the male baddie...Its a damn Indie Jones type story, Baddies are supposed to be menacing and neither of the characters worked for me.

Half the time I wanted to go up to them and say hey guys, lets team up...

Supporting characters that worked for me is Sully, Elena was a star, Sam was OK, and that was it. Still enjoyed it, but game had better potential,
You want a cliche run of the mill done to death bad guy type then? Don't say you aren't. That's what you're asking for. Is there no room for subversion and surprise?

The second I saw her taking off her shoes in the first fight I knew shit was going to go down but I was determined. The instant I took control of Nate on the second fight I clearly remember thinking to myself "oh shit, I'm not going to beat her am I?" And if Nadine made me think that that's when you know said character is menacing.
 

Earthpainting

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May 7, 2006
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You can throw around paranoia over them fighting for that cover, sure, but then that ignores the countless anecdotes from developers over the years losing the fight for just that. Literally two weeks ago we had a new story about that from ex-Lionhead developers over Fable 3, FFS.

I'll go a step further and ask you what there is to gain from a marketing perspective. The safe reaction is, every time, to go more vanilla with decisions like this. Go for whatever is perceived as the default. The logic of your statement depends on the idea that using minorities is pandering, when the common response in film and games is without a doubt to go with white characters, preferably males.
The logic of my statement doesn't necessitate pandering, as that wasn't the direction I was taking it in. The two female characters the article mentions for instance are not prominent enough that people who didn't play Uncharted 4 would know about. Gender representation has been a lively subject in video games for a while now, so it would make sense to still capitalise on your efforts. Hence why I said it came off as thirst for acknowledgement. Like I mentioned though, I don't mind this too much, as the end result remains the same. They put in the effort to actually include these characters, and are providing successful examples for other developers.

I do not feel the need to contest that they had to fight over the cover with The Last Of Us. I fully believe that happened, as this is an issue that still props up in various forms of entertainment. I brought it up in reference to how they went in this direction before with their previous game, to establish the pattern that set off my cynical paranoia.

To answer your question, I'd guess the gain from a marketing perspective is to reach audiences who otherwise would not be interested in action games, or folks who need a small push to support a positive developer. Core gamers who had a passing interest in Uncharted most likely have already bought the game, so even if they would have been upset over these tiny elements, their money is already spent. In the past Uncharted had also been dealing with the rather unfair reputation of being a tone-deaf series about a globe-trotting white guy shooting people of colour over treasure-hunts. It would make sense to take better control over your online presence in such a way with a more positive story too.

I feel like posts like these come from a cynical point of view.

Like how would this be viral marketing? You still have to fight for a woman or god forbid another ethnicity to have any sort of big role in a game and only recently, very recently might I add has it been met not with critiscim but open arms. And even then you still have to "justify" why you aren't using "default" white male.

Its not really that cartoonish, I mean you have a gator post right here in this very thread to show that its far from cartoonish.
I admitted I was probably being cynical right off the bat, so I can't fault you for reading it like that. You are right though that we've been exposed to some pretty ugly things in the past few years that easy can be described as cartoonish. I guess it's even naive to assume that all of this is a recent development. It's probably always been around, but these feelings and actions had been festering from the bubble we/I were in.
 

R_thanatos

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Apr 20, 2010
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Frankly, I was disappointed with Nadine - especially after Naughty Dog was talking about the character during the casting controversy. Seemed like they were sticking with that casting primarily because the character was too unique to be done by another actress. Instead, she's
Generic Villain #4
- who could have been played by just about anyone.

Compare this to Uncharted 2, who cast an interesting counter to Nate in Chloe - and even used a fairly cliche protagonist to call out all of the chaos that you cause during the game.

If she was a generic vilain , she would have died and pitifull end , like all the previous vilain in the franchise ( lazarevich anyone ? ). First she was a strong leader of men, second she got away with the money, third she was able to say: "we need to stop , this is too much loses !" , and she kicked ass in hand to hand combat even against multiple opponents.
I don't even think she can be considered generic, considering how all the other vilains of the franchise ended
 

Late Flag

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Jul 28, 2014
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That's bizarre and frankly a little hard to believe. The fact that the character in question is female didn't register with me at all as being noteworthy. It's disturbing that somebody would be bothered by this.

Edit: Then again, I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the whole GamerGate thing, and I know those people actually exist.
 

Alex Stroud

Banned
Apr 5, 2015
1,283
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Druckmann should've told the guy, "Seems like YOU are the real naughty dog in this room," after which he would hold out his rings for everyone to kiss.
 

geordiemp

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You want a cliche run of the mill done to death bad guy type then? Don't say you aren't. That's what you're asking for. Is there no room for subversion and surprise? .

Stop putting words into posters mouths...Did I say that ? No.

Read up a bit

The KGB Dr Spalko the Physchic was well cast imo....she gave me the creeps in India Jones...That was a baddie cast well imo.

The 2 main baddies (Plural) in UC4 made me feel nothing....at all. They were not threatening, scary, intimidating or anything which makes a good baddie (male or female).

Oh and that 2nd fight, I was drinking a cuppa, I knew it was scripted and pointless and just waited for the transition.

Now back to teh OP, I loved the ending Epilogue, enjoyed the casting and the location and acting...
 

Dirtyshubb

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Aug 20, 2008
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Stop putting words into posters mouths...Did I say that ? No.

Read up a bit

The KGB Dr Spalko the Physchic was well cast imo....she gave me the creeps in India Jones...That was a baddie cast well imo.

The 2 main baddies (Plural) in UC4 made me feel nothing....at all.
No offence but it seems like your argument was first not believing that nadine could beat nate but after you lost that argument you changed it to you just didn't like both characters.
 

Dice//

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Jan 24, 2013
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The 2 main baddies (Plural) in UC4 made me feel nothing....at all. They were not threatening, scary, intimidating or anything which makes a good baddie (male or female)

Maybe more like this instead?


he looks pretty evil.
 

geordiemp

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Maybe more like this instead

he looks pretty evil.

I dont play Manga / JRPGs and the like, but very funny.

That's what I thought as well. He's moving the goalposts.

You just want to pick a fight, yeah I know its that type of thread, gotta find someone to go at....Have a good night anyway...

Its not easy to articulate I did not like the baddies, I did not feel the usual feelings to well portrayed baddies in films...if you go to the UC4 thread you will find allot of posters did not resonate with the baddies.

In fact, you can get a better appreciation of what players thought of the characters in the UC4 thread than in here.
 

R_thanatos

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Apr 20, 2010
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It was ridiculous that 2 large men could not land a hit on a woman in a fist fight - I mean the believability was just laughable for that fight scene.

Having a female baddie is fine, but having her beat up 2 guys and overpower them is a bit much...especially as she had a medium frame and slender build...

Taking it too far...

PS the other castings worked great

Well with the right martial art and training i don't even see how it's impossible or unrealistic.
She wouldn't even leading shoreline if she didn't have the skills to do it in a world ( mercenaries ) where men are superiors in numbers. She probably had to raise her skills very high to survive in that line of work.

If anything , the fact that even on 2 vs 1 she still kick ass do show how nate didn't have any chance of victory in a 1 vs 1 earlier.
 

Zackat

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Nov 18, 2015
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I didn't like that they gave me the controls to fight Nadine and I couldn't do anything to win. If it was a cut scene I wouldn't have cared at all. Whether that was the point or not I need some options when I have control of the character, not just a straight auto loss. I just put my controller down and watched once I realized I couldn't do anything to change the outcome. One of my pet peeves in games is this. Nadine beating up Nate is fine, she had some fighting skills. But man I don't like not being able to change outcomes at all when I am in control of my character.
 

SomTervo

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It was ridiculous that 2 large men could not land a hit on a woman in a fist fight - I mean the believability was just laughable for that fight scene.

Having a female baddie is fine, but having her beat up 2 guys and overpower them is a bit much...especially as she had a medium frame and slender build...

Taking it too far...

PS the other castings worked great

Not at all. It's set up throughout the series that Nate is a scrapper, as is Sam. Neither of them have any training, they just have brains and brawn. If you know anything about fighting this is totally clear from the fight with Nadine. Nadine is a trained fighter and Sam and Nate are just brawlers, just bruisers. It made perfect sense they'd get fucked up.

There's a woman at a local session I sometimes attend who could easily take on two of us at once. Perhaps three. She's a machine.

OK, Maybe I worded it poorly...this is maybe better

Nadine just does not work, neither does the male baddie...Its a damn Indie Jones type story, Baddies are supposed to be menacing and neither of the characters worked for me.

Half the time I wanted to go up to them and say hey guys, lets team up...

Supporting characters that worked for me is Sully, Elena was a star, Sam was OK, and that was it. Still enjoyed it, but game had better potential,

Aha, completely U-turning on your argument? Cool.
 

Paracelsus

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One thing about Nadine did leave me baffled, it looked like something I wouldn't have expected out of Lazarevic, when he
punches her jumping down from the upper floor, at least fifteen feet in the air at full blunt force in the face smashing her through the floor
and she raises up like nothing happened. All training in the world, that's still neck-breaking material. Given the past of the series I was actually expecting a sort of supernatural plot twist at that point.
 

Anarky

Banned
Feb 4, 2016
1,188
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Wow, that is sad. Anyone who cites an unscrupulous person like Sarkeesian as an influence is clearly vacuous. I want more diverse characters in games too, but let's not have dishonest framing this argument. It will only cause more problems.

Yeah don't they know she's actually two hitlers in a skin suit?/s
 

Audioboxer

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May 11, 2010
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The ending of UC4 was fucking great. That's all I really have to say.

Oh and the guy in the first post is an asshole.
 

dLMN8R

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Dec 14, 2007
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So it was Naughty Dog themselves who said this! I kept thinking it was Bioware or EA for some reason.

EDIT: lets not give more attention to that poster as thats what he clearly wants. The mods will take care of it or he will come back and explain his shitpost.

The thing is - there are plenty of criticisms one could have about how Sarkeesian dissects various work. For example right in the interview I linked to, Neil Druckmann himself disagrees with her analysis of Uncharted 4 and I agree with Druckmann about his reasoning.

But the extent that some people will go to attack Sarkeesian is just fucking disgusting. It's like few can ever disagree with her without also attacking her as a person and harassing her to the point where it's impossible for her to even live her life comfortably.
 

Plum

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One thing about Nadine did leave me baffled, it looked like something I wouldn't have expected out of Lazarevic, when he
punches her from the upper floor, at least fifteen feet in the air at full blunt force in the face smashing her through the floor
and she raises up like nothing happened. All training in the world, that's still neck-breaking material. Given the past of the series I was actually expecting a sort of supernatural plot twist at that point.

All Uncharted characters seem to have the inhuman ability to survive what would otherwise mortally injure them, Nadine isn't really an exception here. I'd put that up to just "It's Uncharted" than anything else. How Sully still manages to climb like a pro despite being a 60+ year old chain smoker is the real question!
 

Firmus_Anguis

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Jun 18, 2014
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Good Lord... The thought never even entered my mind.
"Holy shit, she's a fucking beast - She's kicking BOTH our asses!!"
, was my reaction. And I never even once reflected upon the idea of
Nate having a daughter. I was just thrilled to keep on playing and even get those TLOU vibes... Anyone else think we'll totally have a dog around in TLOU2? I Am Legend-style?
Naughty Dog totally did the right thing to kick that dude out. What a fucking asshole!
 

DedValve

Banned
May 18, 2013
9,963
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The thing is - there are plenty of criticisms one could have about how Sarkeesian dissects various work. For example right in the interview I linked to, Neil Druckmann himself disagrees with her analysis of Uncharted 4 and I agree with Druckmann about his reasoning.

But the extent that some people will go to attack Sarkeesian is just fucking disgusting. It's like few can ever disagree with her without also attacking her as a person and harassing her to the point where it's impossible for her to even live her life comfortably.

Sure she's not impervious to valid critiques of her videos or even views. She just did a great job of shedding light of women in gaming and diversity in general and unfortunately is suffering and will probably continue to suffer for it.

I wonder if the cries for diversity would be as loud had it not been for her although I'm sure gamergate would have still crept up and they also ironically I believe made us more aware of diversity and the lack of it.

I do feel like those 2 really brought up something that desperately needed to be brought up.
 

Unknown One

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All Uncharted characters seem to have the inhuman ability to survive what would otherwise mortally injure them, Nadine isn't really an exception here. I'd put that up to just "It's Uncharted" than anything else. How Sully still manages to climb like a pro despite being a 60+ year old chain smoker is the real question!

Cutscenes are separate from gameplay. Which is why a single bullet wounds Nate in Uncharted 2. Not even Lazarevic would have shrugged off that attack even when powered up.
 

NinjamicWZ

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Jul 30, 2010
9,353
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You're still not explaining to me why this is a bad thing, or even "unoriginal". Literally all you've said is that having two dads with daughters at any point in the stories is "unoriginal".



The Complete First Season

I need this to be canon.
 

Kinyou

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Sep 12, 2009
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Only part that actually confused me regarding genders was why there were no female enemies. Especially with Nadine as the leader you'd think she'd be interested in diversifying her group a tiny bit.
 

MaybeBurger

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Mar 2, 2016
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The Complete First Season

I need this to be canon.

haha. I'd buy this game.

Only part that actually confused me regarding genders was why there were no female enemies. Especially with Nadine as the leader you'd think she'd be interested in diversifying her group a tiny bit.

uncharted never had female enemeies nor TLOU. Something about violence against women I think.
 

Lys Skygge

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Only part that actually confused me regarding genders was why there were no female enemies. Especially with Nadine as the leader you'd think she'd be interested in diversifying her group a tiny bit.
Yeah it is a weird omission. Especially since there are female AI characters in multiplayer.
 

Alo0oy

Banned
Oct 12, 2014
7,806
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I didn't like that they gave me the controls to fight Nadine and I couldn't do anything to win. If it was a cut scene I wouldn't have cared at all. Whether that was the point or not I need some options when I have control of the character, not just a straight auto loss. I just put my controller down and watched once I realized I couldn't do anything to change the outcome. One of my pet peeves in games is this. Nadine beating up Nate is fine, she had some fighting skills. But man I don't like not being able to change outcomes at all when I am in control of my character.

You're supposed to feel powerless in that fight, that was the point! No matter how hard you try, you still lose.
 

Parapraxis

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Jan 15, 2009
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Hope Nadine turns good and has her own spin off, she would make a better playable character than a baddie. Posters mis understand my character appreciation of Nadine, she comes across as having a good side.

Nadine as old mentor to Cassie in a way like Sully and Nate, Cassie inspiring Nadine to want to hunt treasure for the sheer adventure of it (Cassie main character, Nadine side-kick), Nadine teaching Cassie how to kick 2 grown ass men's asses at the same time.
 

Alo0oy

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Oct 12, 2014
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I know. But there was supposedly a technical reason for that.

I don't know why there were no female enemies in UC4, though. They should have at least attempted to address it in the plot (Nadine inherited the army from her dad as-is? Or something like that).
 

Inspector Q

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Regarding the female cannon fodder enemies, I am fully expecting them to make an appearance in a potential TLoU sequel. Kind of sucked that they weren't in the first game. The voice actresses who did the voices for the female Hunters in multiplayer were awesome. All the voice actors did an amazing job for that games multiplayer, to be honest.

Another funny omission was in Rise of the Tomb Raider. There were a bunch of females, but they were all good guys, lol. The entire enemy force that you murder were all male mooks. As usual, the only female enemy was a "leader" of some sort.

But yeah, I am assuming we will see more and more generic female baddies in games going forward. Doesn't seem to be that big of a deal anymore. No one made a fuss about AC Syndicate adding female cannon fodder.

As long as it makes sense contextually, I don't see anyone making a big deal about it. Like, are we killing innocent men and women or are we killing gun toting dudes/dudettes? Context is pretty much everything. Obviously, there will be people who complain, but that seems to be the case with everything.

Anyway, UC4 was awesome. Really looking forward to the DLC. I want to see what direction they go in and what characters they let us play as. I definitely think they should lay off of Nate and Elena. I think they had a perfect ending. Maybe Chloe and Cutter deserve a little love since we may never see them again and they didn't get a proper send off like these other characters did. But now I am going off topic so I will end it here.
 
Apr 7, 2014
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Lol @ the tester's "you were supposed to destroy the sith,not join them!" remark. Nooooo Naughty Dog, you were one of the good ones.
 

OfTheOverflow

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Aug 18, 2015
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Please god adult Ellie for TLOU2 protagonist. Need to see the ensuring shitfight from these manchildren. Loved every minute of U4, and the prologue had me crying happy tears. Bravo ND.
 

Lime

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Since people are talking about the future: Id prefer if Naughty Dog didn't do another white woman protagonist as a means to diversify. I'm just afraid that the games industry will do the exact same thing as Hollywood and think that diversification means putting more white women front and center. It'll still be better than nothing I guess, but looking beyond just changing the gender would be pretty cool.
 

Alcotholic

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Feb 10, 2013
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Nadine is fucking awesome. I wish she had more screen time :/
I really hope to see more characters like her too.
 

SolidSnakex

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Since people are talking about the future: Id prefer if Naughty Dog didn't do another white woman protagonist as a means to diversify. I'm just afraid that the games industry will do the exact same thing as Hollywood and think that diversification means putting more white women front and center. It'll still be better than nothing I guess, but looking beyond just changing the gender would be pretty cool.

It's quite possible that their next lead won't be white

Nathan Drake is kind of the ultimate white, male protagonist. He's like a 21st-century Indiana Jones. But a lot of people are waking up to the need for more diverse characters and stories in our popular culture. Did you think about these issues at all for "Uncharted 4"?

Bruce Straley: The industry is changing and the world is changing -- all for the better. With "Uncharted 4," we're trying to be as conscientious as possible, within certain limitations. There are limitations in story, world, genre that we've already set up for the franchise. We can't suddenly make Nathan Drake a black protagonist, as much as it'd be super great to support something like that.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...interview_us_56d9b2a5e4b0000de4044cee?m=false
 

Spring-Loaded

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This decision to not make these characters white dudes (or, as some people refer to it, "forced," diversity) is better than pandering to focus testers like this dude. Even if it's soulless, checklist-following, token pandering diversity for social justice points, so be it. Let's force as many people who are uncomfortable playing as other genders/races/walks of life to have to suffer through such experiences.