Support NeoGAF

[-griffy-]

So

Spoiler

Nadine beating up Nate and Sam

kinda bothered me, but not for sexist reasons. More so because

Spoiler

Nate has been previously been seen beating the cap out of people twice his size by himself, and now he's getting beat up with his brother to someone smaller than him because plot.

Just a consistency thing.

I was very pleased with the epilogue though, that was amazingly well done all around!

Nate has never been portrayed as anything but a straight up barroom fighter, just throwing big, messy haymakers around. Look at the bar fight in 3 again, dude gets his ass handed to him by the big guy until he uses the toilet tank cover. He wins through sheer brute force and bravado, not because he's a super competent fighter. Nadine is clearly a competent, trained and skilled fighter, out of Nate's league.

 

[Rabid-Coot]

The dog is female as well, too far Naughty Dog. Too far.

Seriously though I wonder if going forward character outlines will be written without a gender or race in mind before being sent off for concept art.

 

[DarkKyo]

Spoiler

Note how I said that, after The Last of Us, it's not that original in ND's games, not gaming/entertainment as a whole.

??

Spoiler

And I also cited an example from ND's games where parents had two main boy characters. Your point is ridiculous either way because there is a 50/50 chance any given child will be born a female.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

So

Spoiler

Nadine beating up Nate and Sam

kinda bothered me, but not for sexist reasons. More so because

Spoiler

Nate has been previously been seen beating the cap out of people twice his size by himself, and now he's getting beat up with his brother to someone smaller than him because plot.

Just a consistency thing.

I was very pleased with the epilogue though, that was amazingly well done all around!

Since when does size mean everything? Have you seen Bruce Lee in his prime? He was a scrawny, small person who could beat a sumo wrestler in two punches!

In fact why are you not complaining about Nate destroying helicopters, big airplanes and surviving cruise ships sinking and falling off planes? What's the more unbelievable? Those or a female expert martial artist with military training being able to kick two men's asses?

Give me a break.

 

[Plum]

??

Spoiler

And I also cited an example from ND's games where parents had two main boy characters. Your point is ridiculous either way because there is a 50/50 chance any given child will be born a female.

Spoiler

The protagonist's child being a daughter has been done in a Naughty Dog game before, so doing it again is a tad bit unoriginal. I didn't call UC4 bad because of it, I even said "somewhat" since it's not that big of a criticism to begin with.

 

[DedValve]

Spoiler

Note how I said that, after The Last of Us, it's not that original in ND's games, not gaming/entertainment as a whole.

The relationship between Nathan and his daughter and Joel and Ellie are worlds apart.

Not to mention that both games star a white male protagonist, both games rely on shooting as the primary combat, both games have very similar narrative storytelling, etc. etc. etc. Yet both are very different games.

Its a bit silly to point that out as something they've done before when no, they haven't done that before.

 

[fernoca]

I really liked that.

Also in Mortal Kombat X were Johnny Cage and Sonya had Cassandra/Cassie and Jax had Jacqueline/Jacqui.

The fact that some get angry at that is funny and sad.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

Regardless of whether they did what before when, it only becomes a problem if we're talking about a girl. 10 boys in a row, no comment. Two girls in a row, we have an originality problem, we have a pandering problem, we have a diversity points problem.

And therein lies the issue.

Or like I said in my last post: Nate surviving a sinking ship, tanks and falling off an airplane? No one bats an eye. But when one woman is able to beat two guys in hand to hand combat? No that's where we draw the line of unrealistic.

 

[Richard the Lionheart]

Wow, that is sad. Anyone who cites an unscrupulous person like Sarkeesian as an influence is clearly vacuous. I want more diverse characters in games too, but let's not have dishonest framing this argument. It will only cause more problems.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

Wow, that is sad. Anyone who cites an unscrupulous person like Sarkeesian as an influence is clearly vacuous. I want more diverse characters in games too, but let's not have dishonest framing this argument. It will only cause more problems.

We got one alive, you guys!

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The real problem with making one with

Spoiler

Nates daughter

is that it becomes too Tomb Raider esque.

Yeah that's a real problem.

It wasn't a problem that Nate was male, though, even though it was way too Indiana Jones esque. Now that is totally OK because reasons.

It was ridiculous that 2 large men could not land a hit on a woman in a fist fight - I mean the believability was just laughable for that fight scene.

Having a female baddie is fine, but having her beat up 2 guys and overpower them is a bit much...especially as she had a medium frame and slender build...

Taking it too far...

PS the other castings worked great

But Nate making crazy jumps over and over, holding on to a ledge with the tip of his fingers indefinitely, and climbing back up without something to support his legs, shooting every baddie when he's outnumbered 12 to 1 (and many of them wear body armour, have grenades, RPGs, sniper rifles etc.), those things are totally fine for suspension of disbelief right? Or Nate repeatedly fending off several assailants at once with his sloppy hits and dodges and coming out largely unscathed (or barely bruised up), that's perfectly fine.

But a trained merc fending off two assailants at once? Psssht, she's a woman, that is definitely going too far.

Wow, that is sad. Anyone who cites an unscrupulous person like Sarkeesian as an influence is clearly vacuous. I want more diverse characters in games too, but let's not have dishonest framing this argument. It will only cause more problems.

1) Why is Sarkeesian unscrupulous?
2) What problems are those, exactly? Please be specific.

 

[Plum]

The relationship between Nathan and his daughter and Joel and Ellie are worlds apart.

Not to mention that both games star a white male protagonist, both games rely on shooting as the primary combat, both games have very similar narrative storytelling, etc. etc. etc. Yet both are very different games.

Its a bit silly to point that out as something they've done before when no, they haven't done that before.

Spoiler

I just think that having the big emotional crux of the ending being about Nate's daughter after the ENTIRE last game's story focused on a father-daughter relationship was a tad (note how I say tad, not massively, not "game breaking") bit uninspired. Though the entire "epilogue with the main character's kid years later" thing i quite uninspired. A son wouldn't have made much difference, though I think Nate having two kids of any gender as a neat link back to Sam and Nate would have been the best choice.

 

[hesido]

I spoiled the game, I'm nearing the end and just went ahead and clicked the spoiler.

(Turns out I don't really care for spoilers for this game though.)

 

[Koyuga]

What if they went a step further, and instead of Sam being his big brother, it was his older sister? I think that could've been pretty interesting.

 

[Altairre]

The whole way this apparently went down with the "what if that character was a woman?" question and all reminds me of this video where Anthony Burch talks about cynical reasons for diversity in gaming. It's interesting and worth a watch, no matter what you think about his writing. He basically mentions that they originally had three men and one woman as playable characters in Borderlands: The presequel and then changed one of the men into a woman just for the sake of gender parity. That woman turned out to be Athena who is one of the best characters in the Borderlands universe imo especially in Tales from the Borderlands. It really takes the wind out of the "but we shouldn't do it just for the sake of diversity" arguments. If you end up with a kickass character then why the fuck not?

 

[Earthpainting]

Those anecdotes sound almost cartoonish in a way. The cynic in me can't help but wonder if this is a form of viral marketing. Especially since they shared similar anecdotes after the release of The Last Of Us with how they had to fight the man tooth and nail to put Ellie on the cover.

Oh well. As long as they continue to bother to put in the effort, I don't mind the need for acknowledgement or shoulder patting.

 

[marzlapin]

The thing that actually impressed me the most in UC4 regarding gender was how they wrote Elena and how they presented her and Nate's relationship. Especially in the handling of Nate's deception, the fallout from that, and Nate and Elena's eventual reconciliation. It would have been so easy to fall back on the old "nagging killjoy wife" thing and they didn't, and it was great.

 

[Plum]

Look deep into your soul. Do you type out this reaction if we're walking about boys across games?

No, don't just type your gut feeling. Reflect for a moment. Think about when you have commented with this point of view over male characters in the past, if you ever have.

Yes, I would if we were talking about boys across games. I haven't commented about it in the past because there hasn't been a situation where I might comment about it in the past. What's with the assumptions?

 

[DarkKyo]

Spoiler

The protagonist's child being a daughter has been done in a Naughty Dog game before, so doing it again is a tad bit unoriginal. I didn't call UC4 bad because of it, I even said "somewhat" since it's not that big of a criticism to begin with.

When I think about characters and their relationships, I think of them in terms of the characters themselves; the prominent events of their lives, their personalities, their occupations and achievements, and their principles and beliefs. Each character and character relationship is what determines originality and uniqueness..

Spoiler

not just their sex/genders.

Seeing as how sex/gender determinism is a pointless concept in the discussion of originality, your argument sounds like a poor excuse to find a slight fault with something so trivial because it simply doesn't matter when you are talking about different characters' lives, nevermind the fact that TLOU and Uncharted don't take place in the same universe so judging their originality like they are using the same "gimmick" within the same franchise doesn't make sense. If you really want to split hairs, the father/daughter relationships in TLOU are far, far different than the one portrayed at the end of U4 because they are completely different and uniquely characterized relationships.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I just really think it's a bizarre and moot criticism to bring up.

 

[geordiemp]

Yeah that's a real problem.

But Nate making crazy jumps over and over, holding on to a ledge with the tip of his fingers indefinitely, and climbing back up without something to support his legs, shooting every baddie when he's outnumbered 12 to 1 (and many of them wear body armour, have grenades, RPGs, sniper rifles etc.), those things are totally fine for suspension of disbelief right? Or Nate repeatedly fending off several assailants at once with his sloppy hits and dodges and coming out largely unscathed (or barely bruised up), that's perfectly fine.

But a trained merc fending off two assailants at once? Psssht, she's a woman, that is definitely going too far.
.

But we are playing the HERO in a computer game where we beat lots of baddies, yes exactly I beat up a few 6 ft + hulks in armour no problem, but a slender girl is too strong to even get close to - its an indiana Jones type game, at least make the baddie like Mother Russia.

Anyway, that part of the game failed for me, and although I enjoyed the game and characters such as Elena and Sully, The baddies were crap and did not really work at all. I felt no animosity to the baddies or felt intimidated in the slightest.

A good baddie for such a romp would be a Bane type character. Remember, its supposed to be fun for players, not an Exercise in Political Correctness at every step. Now imagine the same fight buy the player is Elena and she is trying to survive against a Bane type character - that would be imposing, but the other way around does not exactly work for me...

Oh, they did handle Elena very well, great character writing.

 

[RoboPlato]

The thing that actually impressed me the most in UC4 regarding gender was how they wrote Elena and how they presented her and Nate's relationship. Especially in the handling of Nate's deception, the fallout from that, and Nate and Elena's eventual reconciliation. It would have been so easy to fall back on the old "nagging killjoy wife" thing and they didn't, and it was great.

This was my favorite thing about the whole game. It would have been so easy to fall into that trap and they avoided it brilliantly.

The whole way this apparently went down with the "what if that character was a woman?" question and all reminds me of this video where Anthony Burch talks about cynical reasons for diversity in gaming. It's interesting and worth a watch, no matter what you think about his writing. He basically mentions that they originally had three men and one woman as playable characters in Borderlands: The presequel and then changed one of the men into a woman just for the sake of gender parity. That woman turned out to be Athena who is one of the best characters in the Borderlands universe imo especially in Tales from the Borderlands. It really takes the wind out of the "but we shouldn't do it just for the sake of diversity" arguments. If you end up with a kickass character then why the fuck not?

Fully agreed. Opening up more gender and racial make up in character design and the writing process opens a lot more doors for more distinct designs and interesting spins on standard character archetypes.

 

[Altairre]

So there's the upshot. Then what's the other side? Who gets harmed, gets something lesser than, if some white character gets turned into a Latino dude for no real reason beyond adding some (literal) color? Where is the loss there?

I'd love to see that. Don't think it would be a loss at all.

Edit: You'd probably get a bunch of "but only if they're cool and well written" arguments which I don't necessarily think has to be the case. This video by rantasmo makes that point better than I can though.

 

[Plum]

Snip

I'm more talking about it in terms of the design phase.

Spoiler

Since Cassie really isn't characterized all that much I saw her as more a catalyst to view Nate and Elena's legacy through. The look at Neil's thought process when it comes to determining the gender of characters and the fact that all of Neil's "protagonist's kid" characters have been daughters makes Cassie's gender a tiny bit uninspired. Like I said, this isn't a big criticism it's just a minor nitpick I had about the ending. I do have my problems with the epilogue, but this really isn't one of them. I'm not a closet sexist going on some diatribe like the guy in the OP the poster above heavily implied I am.

 

[Plum]

Why hasn't there been a situation where you wouldn't comment on it in the past? Certainly there have been plenty of opportunities for you to say, "eh, they did the male thing already, why not a woman?"

You're deliberately misconstruing my argument now.

Spoiler

I'm talking about daughters, not the entire female gender.

If you look at it that way you can see why, because there are so few games with that story beat, especially two story-driven games by the same director and the same developer.

 

[Mechazawa]

What if they went a step further, and instead of Sam being his big brother, it was his older sister? I think that could've been pretty interesting.

That probably would've actually been an issue. If they were working from the philosophy of "does changing the gender matter", then Sam would've been a major roadblock since his backstory(

Spoiler

breaking into the same prison as Drake and Rafe to heist the object in the tower and being left for dead to rot in that same prison for years

) effectively revolves around him being a male.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The whole way this apparently went down with the "what if that character was a woman?" question and all reminds me of this video where Anthony Burch talks about cynical reasons for diversity in gaming. It's interesting and worth a watch, no matter what you think about his writing. He basically mentions that they originally had three men and one woman as playable characters in Borderlands: The presequel and then changed one of the men into a woman just for the sake of gender parity. That woman turned out to be Athena who is one of the best characters in the Borderlands universe imo especially in Tales from the Borderlands. It really takes the wind out of the "but we shouldn't do it just for the sake of diversity" arguments. If you end up with a kickass character then why the fuck not?

Yup.

And of course The Last of Us, where Druckmann said he was inspired by Anita's critiques, and we ended up having amazing female characters like Ellie, Tess, Marlene and Maria.

"B-b-b-ut we'll just get tokens!", they say. Yeah, fuck off with the fake concerns.

But we are playing the HERO in a computer game where we beat lots of baddies, yes exactly I beat up a few 6 ft + hulks in armour no problem, but a slender girl is too strong to even get close to - its an indiana Jones type game, at least make the baddie like Mother Russia.

What the fuck does size matter? Plenty of action flicks have slender villains who are still competent in martial arts. Those hulks in armour were grunts, and Nadine was the boss. In action flicks the bigger mobs are never the main boss, they're just the grunt, and the real threat is from the head honcho. So how can you use the "it's a pulpy Indiana Jones like thing" as an argument when it completely undermines your criticism? It's ridiculous.

A good baddie for such a romp would be a Bane type character.

Ah, a good baddie is a big white man with a mask speaking unintelligibly? lol, plz

On what planet is such a lame-ass character like Bane better than Nadine anyway xD and I say this as someone who thinks Nadine is rather underdevelopped. But Bane, really? FFS

Remember, its supposed to be fun for players, not an Exercise in Political Correctness at every step.

Ahhhh... I see what this is about now.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

But we are playing the HERO in a computer game where we beat lots of baddies, yes exactly I beat up a few 6 ft + hulks in armour no problem, but a slender girl is too strong to even get close to - its an indiana Jones type game, at least make the baddie like Mother Russia.

Anyway, that part of the game failed for me, and although I enjoyed the game and characters such as Elena and Sully, The baddies were crap and did not really work at all. I felt no animosity to the baddies or felt intimidated in the slightest.

A good baddie for such a romp would be a Bane type character. Remember, its supposed to be fun for players, not an Exercise in Political Correctness at every step. Now imagine the same fight buy the player is Elena and she is trying to survive against a Bane type character - that would be imposing, but the other way around does not exactly work for me...

Oh, they did handle Elena very well, great character writing.

Are you for real?

 

[Koyuga]

That probably would've actually been an issue. If they were working from the philosophy of "does changing the gender matter", then Sam would've been a major roadblock since his backstory(

Spoiler

breaking into the same prison as Drake and Rafe to heist the object in the tower and being left for dead to rot in that same prison for years

) effectively revolves around him being a male.

Yeah, that definitely would've had to have been changed. I just think there aren't enough female characters that actually do stuff in the series and aren't either A) a bad guy, or B) a love interest for Nate.

 

[geordiemp]

But you're still going with buying an untrained, intentionally sloppy dude getting lucky... but not one scene with a woman who is trained getting the upper hand? And this is all from rhe perspective that she will get hers eventually.

Put this in a martial arts movie, with some frail old drunken warrior doing the same, does ir really pull you out from it? The protagonist will win eventually anyway, it's just the standard trope of someone extremely knowledgeable putting up a roadblock. Why does it become problematic if it is a talented woman?

I mean let's be real, there are likely many thousands of women on earth that could wreck you IRL right now.

But its not Kick ass, Its not Hidden tiger, we are playing Indiana Drake....Its that setting and that type of game / environment. So it does not work.

If you put Hit girl alongside Arnie in Terminator it would not work - I dont know what to say, somethings just dont come across well.

Also there is the discussion of a bad guy being perceived / imaged BAD - Nadine just does not work, neither does the male baddie...Its a damn Indie Jones type story, Baddies are supposed to be menacing.

Are you for real?

Oh please, every time there is one of these threads there is that guy calling for heads. OK, I said I did not like 1 character casting...I am out . You OK with that ?

 

[DedValve]

Those anecdotes sound almost cartoonish in a way. The cynic in me can't help but wonder if this is a form of viral marketing. Especially since they shared similar anecdotes after the release of The Last Of Us with how they had to fight the man tooth and nail to put Ellie on the cover.

Oh well. As long as they continue to bother to put in the effort, I don't mind the need for acknowledgement or shoulder patting.

I feel like posts like these come from a cynical point of view.

Like how would this be viral marketing? You still have to fight for a woman or god forbid another ethnicity to have any sort of big role in a game and only recently, very recently might I add has it been met not with critiscim but open arms. And even then you still have to "justify" why you aren't using "default" white male.

Its not really that cartoonish, I mean you have a gator post right here in this very thread to show that its far from cartoonish.

But its not Kick ass, Its not Hidden tiger, we are playing Indiana Drake....Its that setting and that type of game / environment. So it does not work.

If you put Hit girl alongside Arnie in Terminator it would not work - I dont know what to say, somethings just dont come across well.

Also there is the discussion of a bad guy being perceived / imaged BAD - Nadine just does not work, neither does the male baddie...

I don't think you have any idea of how effective trained combat can be and how to this day it allows men and women to take on foes of any kind provided they had proper training which Nadine very obviously had. Just look at her stance, the way she prepares for a fight, her fighting style compared to Drakes.

To Nathan, the day he fought Nadine was a near death experience. To Nadine it wasn't even a damned Tuesday. It was more like a Wednesday afternoon with a cup of coffee.

 

[-griffy-]

If you put Hit girl alongside Arnie in Terminator it would not work - I dont know what to say, somethings just dont come across well.

This isn't Hit Girl fighting Terminator, this is highly skilled leader of private military company Nadine beating up regular ass every-man Nathan Drake.

 

[Altairre]

Yup.

And of course The Last of Us, where Druckmann said he was inspired by Anita's critiques, and we ended up having amazing female characters like Ellie, Tess, Marlene and Maria.

"B-b-b-ut we'll just get tokens!", they say. Yeah, fuck off with the fake concerns.

And again, even if we do get characters that people who make this argument would describe as "tokens", what exactly is the problem with that? We have enough white men in gaming who are terribly written, hell a lot of them are the main protagonists (looking at you Aiden "why am I such an asshole" Pearce). It's like there's some sort of rule that every character who isn't white and male has to be perfect, otherwise you immediatley have people going "well I wouldn't have a problem with it if the writing was better". Bullshit. You're just using that as an excuse.

 

[Plum]

I'm still talking about progeny. My initial response was about 10 boys in a row being no problem, while 2 girls is pandering.

Here in the real world, it's nearly 50/50. That does not make a case for stories having to switch genders after a one game streak.

Yes, but we're not talking about the real world. We're talking about a heavily directed game where every detail was curated and finalized. I never said they had to switch genders, just that having

Spoiler

Nate father a daughter and that alone

is very similar to The Last of Us where

Spoiler

Joel has (or had?) a daughter and noone else.

I know how the reproductive system works, but it has no bearing on creative decisions.

 

[geordiemp]

This isn't Hit Girl fighting Terminator, this is highly skilled leader of private military company Nadine beating up regular ass every-man Nathan Drake.

OK, Maybe I worded it poorly...this is maybe better

Nadine just does not work, neither does the male baddie...Its a damn Indie Jones type story, Baddies are supposed to be menacing and neither of the characters worked for me.

Half the time I wanted to go up to them and say hey guys, lets team up...

Supporting characters that worked for me is Sully, Elena was a star, Sam was OK, and that was it. Still enjoyed it, but game had better potential,

 

[barit]

edit: nvm didn't read accurately

 

[DarkKyo]

Spoiler

The look at Neil's thought process when it comes to determining the gender of characters and the fact that all of Neil's "protagonist's kid" characters have been daughters makes Cassie's gender a tiny bit uninspired. I'm not a closet sexist going on some diatribe like the guy in the OP the poster above heavily implied I am.

Spoiler

It's not uninspired. At all. You are completely missing the point that Nate's offspring being a boy or girl doesn't matter when it comes to originality.

I'm not going to outright call you a sexist, but your argument certainly is sexist because your characterizing Nate's daughter as "another protagonist's daughter" and nothing more. You're focusing on her sex by trying to find some arbitrary connection to completely different characters in a completely different universe. Both real people and fictional characters are so much more than just whatever gender they happened to be born as, so there is zero connection between whatever sex a character is born as(or in this case, designed as) and how "inspired" the character is. How come you don't think Joel, a male protagonist in a ND game isn't unoriginal because he was the protagonist to follow Nathan Drake, a male protagonist in a ND game? It's the same damn comparison but you don't think about it because they are men and that's somehow more reasonable.

 

[dLMN8R]

Wow, that is sad. Anyone who cites an unscrupulous person like Sarkeesian as an influence is clearly vacuous. I want more diverse characters in games too, but let's not have dishonest framing this argument. It will only cause more problems.

How is she "unscrupulous"?

How is this "dishonest framing"? Naughty Dog literally references Sarkeesian in their influences to changing some of their thinking.

You've said in the past that you've been influenced by Anita Sarkeesian's Feminist Frequency videos and the larger conversation about diversity and representation in games. How did that affect Uncharted 4?

When I'm introducing and describing a new character to our lead character concept artist, constantly she will ask, "What if it was a girl?" And I'm like, Oh, I didn't think about that. Let me think, does that affect or change anything? No? Cool, that's different. Yeah, let's do it.

 

[Hamster Plugin]

But that's not totally right. In MP you have female mercenaries. I mean those sidekicks you can call in for help. All 4 have a female version and you can shoot and punch them just as their male counterpart.

They're not in the single player campaign though, and that is the problem.

 

[Bashtee]

A sad reflection of reality. I actually hoped that Nadine's role would have been bigger. Or that there were some female mercenaries.

My problem with the daughter is that she looked too nerdy. She didn't have Nate's troll adventure face.

So? Young Nate also looks rather "nerdy". I think her design was pretty good. I actually hope they will continue the franchise with her.

 

[Altairre]

Wow, that is sad. Anyone who cites an unscrupulous person like Sarkeesian as an influence is clearly vacuous. I want more diverse characters in games too, but let's not have dishonest framing this argument. It will only cause more problems.

This will go well.

 

[DedValve]

How is she "unscrupulous"?

How is this "dishonest framing"? Naughty Dog literally references Sarkeesian in their influences to changing some of their thinking.

So it was Naughty Dog themselves who said this! I kept thinking it was Bioware or EA for some reason.

EDIT: lets not give more attention to that poster as thats what he clearly wants. The mods will take care of it or he will come back and explain his shitpost.

 

[geordiemp]

I actually hoped that Nadine's role would have been bigger. Or that there were some female mercenaries.

I think her design was pretty good. I actually hope they will continue the franchise with her.

Hope Nadine turns good and has her own spin off, she would make a better playable character than a baddie. Posters mis understand my character appreciation of Nadine, she comes across as having a good side.

 

[Darkspineslayer]

It's just the epilogue and it was cute.

Having twins (a daughter and a son) would have solved the problem.

Why is it a problem to be solved?

Nate had a daughter. Realistically there was about a 50/50 chance. Twins are far less common. Any "problem" is a personal one.

 

[Plum]

Spoiler

It's not uninspired. At all. You are completely missing the point that Nate's offspring being a boy or girl doesn't matter when it comes to originality.

I'm not going to outright call you a sexist, but your argument certainly is sexist because your characterizing Nate's daughter as "another protagonist daughter" and nothing more. You're focusing on her sex by trying to find some arbitrary connection to completely different characters in a completely different universe. Both real people and fictional characters are so much more than just whatever gender they happened to be born as, so there is zero connection between whatever sex a character is born as(or in this case, designed as) and how "inspired" the character is. How come you don't think Joel, a male protagonist in a ND game isn't unoriginal because he was the protagonist to follow Nathan Drake, a male protagonist in an ND game? It's the same damn comparison but you don't think about it because they are men and that's somehow more reasonable.

Spoiler

My point clearly said what I see Cassie as, and it's a catalyst. Catalysts are fine, but by their very nature they lack the characterization of characters the story focuses on. Having Cassie be Chris would make the slightest bit of difference, I am simply arguing that the decision to make Nate's kid a girl is the slightest bit unoriginal. It was a throwaway point to add to my opinion of the article we're discussing, not some sexist diatribe on gender.

You're still not explaining to me why this is a bad thing, or even "unoriginal". Literally all you've said is that having two dads with daughters at any point in the stories is "unoriginal". So at this point, given the long enough history of it, I'll ask that you come up with an example of two different fathers in two different stories having sons was a detriment somehow. One thst would motivate you to make similar points as you have in here.

Spoiler

Because Cassie isn't that much of a character in the first place, so her design matters more. After The Last of Us having the protagonist's Kid be a daughter again wasn't that inspired of a choice. Like I said, having two kids of any gender would have been a lot more interesting.

I'd come up with an example if I could think off one, but since I'm not an authority on gender studies in entertainment I can't off the top of my head. The closest I can think off is Harry Potter having a son, which I personally thought was much more unoriginal and boring than Cassie is.

 

[-griffy-]

Its a damn Indie Jones type story, Baddies are supposed to be menacing and neither of the characters worked for me.

Right, cause as we all know there have never been female villains in Indiana Jones movies.

 

[MCD]

A sad reflection of reality. I actually hoped that Nadine's role would have been bigger. Or that there were some female mercenaries.



So? Young Nate also looks rather "nerdy". I think her design was pretty good. I actually hope they will continue the franchise with her.

I just can't imagine her as the next Drake with that glasses.

 

[DarkKyo]

Spoiler

My point clearly said what I see Cassie as, and it's a catalyst. Catalysts are fine, but by their very nature they lack the characterization of characters the story focuses on. Having Cassie be Chris would make the slightest bit of difference, I am simply arguing that the decision to make Nate's kid a girl is the slightest bit unoriginal. It was a throwaway point to add to my opinion of the article we're discussing, not some sexist diatribe on gender.

Spoiler

Answer my question about Joel and Nate. Why is that not uninspired but the daughter thing is? The point is you only think about this either when the character is female or when the character has relation to a male character.

 

[geordiemp]

Right, cause as we all know there have never been female villains in Indiana Jones movies.

[/IMG]

The first one helped India and had a good side.....and the KGB Dr Spalko the Physchic was well cast imo....she gave me the creeps...

.However, thats not the point, The casting in those films was very good, its not about male or female, its about characters that resonate with the audience good or bad and if they 'work'...

I did not like the baddie casting in UC4, both of them..... they seemed quite reasonable and approachable at times in my opinion...lets leave it at that.

 

[Mortemis]

Not you, too, Naughty Dog! Goddammit. I guess I’m done with Uncharted

holy shit. I haven't laughed this hard in a while. 😂

 

[Plum]

Spoiler

Answer my question about Joel and Nate. Why is that not uninspired but the daughter thing is? The point is you only think about this either when the character is female or when the character has relation to a male character.

Spoiler

I've said it already. Because Joel and Nate are the main characters of their respective games, both fully fleshed out and entirely different in personality. Cassie and Sarah are both more plot device than fully fleshed out characters so their design and petty things such as gender matter more.

For an example of this in main characters, every Call of Duty protagonist being the same old generic white guy is MUCH, MUCH more unoriginal than

Spoiler

Cassie

is, and Treyarch acknowledging that by just adding a gender option in BO3 was great (for the record, I picked the female option because it was a neat change from the norm).