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UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013

J

jeff_rigby

Banned
liquidtmd said:
At this point the goalposts have been moved off the pitch, down the road, chopped into wood, a raft has been made out of them and we're currently out at a stormy sea on it fighting serpents at variable dynamic resolutions
Click to expand...
I don't believe I have moved goalposts. The reasoning behind the PS4 having a HDMI 2 port is still the same as I posted here on 7/2015 http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1086342

The requirements to support UHD blu-ray the same as I posted:

There are three four issues with 4K blu-ray:

1) HDMI port with HDCP 2.2 (the new PS4 released in November of the same year will also be equipped with HDMI 2.0 jacks).

2) Drive able to read 3 layer with Panasonic tweek.
3) HEVC low power codec support. Just about any modern GPU can support HEVC but low power HEVC is needed.
4) Chicken and egg adoption due to 1080P being "good enough" and UHD (4K) requiring a new TV
Click to expand...

I have been discussing when standards were available and could be supported in Hardware for the above. Also as standards were published, refining how those standards impact the hardware implementation.
 
S

SmartWaffles

Member
OG PS4, PS4 Slim, PS4 Pro, OG Xbox One, none of them will play UHD Blu-ray. There is only one game console that can read UHD Blu-rays which is Xbox One S, and it shipped in 2016, not 2013. There is NOTHING to discuss. End of the line.

I'll repeat this post every time Jeff spit out a bunch of acronyms and documents.
 
O

onQ123

Member
jeff_rigby said:
I don't believe I have moved goalposts. The reasoning behind the PS4 having a HDMI 2 port is still the same as I posted here on 7/2015 http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1086342

The requirements to support UHD blu-ray the same as I posted:



I have been discussing when standards were available and could be supported in Hardware for the above. Also as standards were published, refining how those standards impact the hardware implementation.
Click to expand...

PS4 , PS4 Slim & PS4 Pro can all support UHD Blu-ray but Sony has choosing not to for whatever reason. maybe because of security risk or lack of interest in the format versus the cost of using it. maybe it's the noise level of the blu-ray drive & the wear it would put on the drive if people was watching UHD Blu-rays all the time. or maybe they haven't worked things out yet with their codecs & they will add it in 2017 when they bring Ultra to PS4. maybe it uses too much energy for a UHD Blu-ray player
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
SmartWaffles said:
OG PS4, PS4 Slim, PS4 Pro, OG Xbox One, none of them will play UHD Blu-ray. There is only one game console that can read UHD Blu-rays which is Xbox One S, and it shipped in 2016, not 2013. There is NOTHING to discuss. End of the line.
Click to expand...
The PS4 wasn't supposed to support DLNA either or CD yet CD support is in the manual. The PS4 has Playready embedded and WMDRM which is only needed for DTCP-IP (DLNA/Vidipath) DRM yet it's still not supported three years after launch. The DRM is delaying the OS support for many features. TMP 2.0 is not backwardly compatible and only made it into windows 10 August 2, 2016 but was published Oct 2014. TMP 2.0 defines standards on how parts of the TEE work and is necessary for 4K commercial media DRM.

Trusted Platform Module (TPM) technology is designed to provide hardware-based, security-related functions.

330px-TPM.svg.png


https://community.arm.com/groups/processors/blog/2014/05/31/a-technical-report-on-tee-and-arm-trustzone said:
What kinds of TEEs are now available ? Nowadays, there are several TEE platforms available for both research community and industry, including:

TPM (Trusted Platform Module). TPM is a dedicated microprocessor designed to secure hardware by integrating cryptographic keys into devices and is available in many modern computers. To utilize the secure primitives of TPM, applications usually combine the TPM (hardware) and the TXT (software) to provide a strong isolation. One thing needs to be pointed out is that, TPM is really SLOW, vendors does not have any motivations to keep it faster, they just make sure it works with low cost!

Intel’s TXT (Trusted Execution Technology) or AMD’s SVM (Secure Virtual Machine). To use the TXT, there are several steps: 1. Suspend OS 2. Execute small amount of code (trusted code) on main CPU 3.Restore OS. While these three steps seem to be simple, actually there is no commercial applications using these technology with several reasons: firstly, when the TXT is on, only one CPU is allowed to execute even in a multicore machine while other cores are suspended; secondly, there is no interrupt and IO operation in TXT and to keep the TCB as small as possible, no OS libs are available, that means, you need to take huge efforts in order to run rich functionality applications.

Hypervisor-based TEE. Virtualization is a straightforward method to implement TEE and there are large number of systems using hypervisor based solution to provide TEE like functionalities. (PS3 does this)

ARM TrustZone. ARM TrustZone is thought to be the most promising technology to implement TEE in mobile devices (or ARM devices). (PS4 does this)

When looking at TrustZone as an alternative for TPMs, the motivation behind this technology become much more clear. In contrast to fixed-function TPMs, TrustZone is a vastly more versatile mechanism with unlimited resources and fast chips.
Click to expand...
AMD is now using ARM TEE for the security processor in Carrizo and Intel has a new version of TEE in, I think, 2015 and later APUs.

The PS4 boots Southbridge as a ARM TEE (secure boot) and then Southbridge Trusted boots the APU.
 
S

SmartWaffles

Member
OG PS4, PS4 Slim, PS4 Pro, OG Xbox One, none of them will play UHD Blu-ray. There is only one game console that can read UHD Blu-rays which is Xbox One S, and it shipped in 2016, not 2013. There is NOTHING to discuss. End of the line.

As I promised.
 
G

GAMEPROFF

Banned
jeff_rigby said:
The PS4 wasn't supposed to support DLNA either or CD yet CD support is in the manual. The PS4 has Playready embedded and WMDRM which is only needed for DTCP-IP (DLNA/Vidipath) DRM yet it's still not supported three years after launch. The DRM is delaying the OS support for many features. TMP 2.0 is not backwardly compatible and only made it into windows 10 August 2, 2016 but was published Oct 2014. TMP 2.0 defines standards on how parts of the TEE works and is necessary for 4K commercial media DRM.

Trusted Platform Module (TPM) technology is designed to provide hardware-based, security-related functions.

330px-TPM.svg.png
Click to expand...

Cool, still doesnt support UHD.
 
R

Raw bars

Banned
I don't see how, I mean Sony was the big pusher of blue ray back in the day. Makes me wonder if they are one step ahead of Ms with an all digital future.
 
D

DangerMouse

Member
Dictator93 said:
I agree. The fact that even the PS4pro does not do UHD Blu-ray utterly smashes this thread.

I hope JaseC's donation really helps some people out.
Click to expand...

it doesn't really yet since technically nothing so far fully disproves his possibility that there's no new drive included because they can firmware update the drive they are already using for all their systems when all of the standards have been finalized and implemented. :)

It's true they don't have to be linked since some devices have HDR support without being a uhd bd player however he was right on a step that a uhd feature is being added to even old OG PS4s that many thought was impossible lol.

Still, I'm surprised the Pro isn't getting shortcutted to one whether or not it's possible. Though it's not a deal breaker since games aren't coming on uhd bds.
 
J

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
DangerMouse said:
it doesn't really yet since technically nothing so far fully disproves his possibility that there's no new drive included because they can firmware update the drive they are already using for all their systems when all of the standards have been finalized and implemented including DRM.
Click to expand...

Well, the premise of this thread is "UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013 but won't be firmware updated to support it till 2016." It's quite clear now that retroactive UHD BD support isn't going to happen on either front.

It's true they don't have to be linked since some devices have HDR support without being a uhd bd player however he was right on a step that a uhd feature is being added to even old OG PS4s that many thought was impossible lol.
Click to expand...

I don't think anybody explicitly denied the possibility of the PS4 being updated to support HDR. Disagreements have all focused on retroactive UHD BD support as that's what he'd been claiming in earnest.
 
D

DangerMouse

Member
JaseC said:
The premise of this thread is "UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013 but won't be firmware updated to support it till 2016." That's clearly not going to happen.

I don't think anybody explicitly denied the possibility of the PS4 being updated to support HDR. It's all been about UHD BD support.
Click to expand...

2016 definitely seems unlikely indeed.

He has also mentioned for a while though that these standards have been taking way longer than all of the companies involved in them anticipated to develop, some that began several years just getting completed this year so it getting pushed beyond 2016 isn't a definitive "never" since they're all a chain.

Not saying I believe one way or the other though lol. My one disappointment in the Pro is that it doesn't just offer one right away, though I'm not entirely sure what the reaction or mine would have been had that necessitated above $399 for a mid-gen upgrade, which is a good price and the gaming side is most important, especially since games wouldn't be coming on uhd bd anyway, unlike on PS3 which also used the space advantage of bd for exclusives and the occasional third party that wanted to.
 
J

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
DangerMouse said:
He has also mentioned for a while though that these standards have been taking way longer than all of the companies involved in them anticipated to develop, some that began several years just getting completed this year so it getting pushed beyond 2016 isn't a definitive "never" since they're all a chain.
Click to expand...

That would be an example of the goalpost moving people have referred to. I mean, the crux of his original argument was that everything is ready to go and UHD BD support just needs to be "switched on", and the 2016 window was inferred from the "effective from" dates in the energy efficiency document as opposed to lagging standard ratification. Now, adjusting a theory to account for changes in information isn't itself a bad thing, but it is moving the goalposts when you refuse to admit that your previous understanding was incorrect and Jeff's lack of humility in this area is what has rubbed some people the wrong way.
 
D

DangerMouse

Member
JaseC said:
That would be an example of the goal post moving people have referred to. I mean, the crux of his original argument was that everything is ready to go and UHD BD support just needs to be "switched on".
Click to expand...

Eh, I guess you're right in the sense of the thread title it would be since the thread title says 2016, but pushed back a year to "switch on" due to software developments that aren't even solely on Sony taking longer wouldn't really be goal posts moving as much as something like the feature only coming to the drives starting in the slightly revised PS4s like the one before the slim or something. Now that would be goal post moving to me since then original PS4s from 2013 wouldn't be included lol.
 
J

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
DangerMouse said:
Eh, I guess in the sense of the thread title it would be since the thread title says 2016, but pushed back a year to "switch on" due to software developments that aren't even solely on Sony taking longer wouldn't really be goal posts moving, unlike something like the feature only coming to the drives starting in the slightly revised PS4s like the one before the slim or something. Now that would be goal post moving to me since then original PS4s from 2013 wouldn't be included lol.
Click to expand...

See my edit.
 
dr_rus

dr_rus

Member
It's like Sony has read this thread and decided to not support 4K even on Neo to just fuck with Jeff's claims even further.
 
I

-ImaginaryInsider

Member
There have been multiple times in this thread where Jeff tried shift his argument ever so slightly. Had Adam and others not continuously held him to his original points, he'd be in here right now pointing to the HDR update and streaming 4K as a victory.
 
Theonik

Theonik

Member
jeff_rigby said:
The first point is not entirely correct with the PS4. It is actually cheaper to implement a HDMI port that can support HDMI 1.4 and HDMI 2.0a when you already have a TEE that has HDCP 2.2 for Miracast/Vidipath and move HDCP to that TEE. The Custom Panasonic HDMI chip in the PS4 just has to support sending HDCP and HDR negotiation to the ARM Trustzone TEE where both take place. The Custom HDMI chip then just has to support the other features of a HDMI chip that are common to all HDMI ports and the timing for HDMI 2 if it is supported. It has to support HDMI 2.0a negotiation but maybe not 4K @ 60 Hz. This scheme also removes limitations a stand alone HDMI 2 chip might have as more can be done with firmware updates to the Southbridge ARM chip that has 256 MB of memory...what HDMI chip has access to that much memory?
Click to expand...
Except a) PS4 vanilla does not have support for HDCP 2.2 and is unlikely to ever get support. b) HDMI 2.0 has almost twice the maximum clock rate of 1.4 so the update is potentially impossible. Even with a custom chip the possibility of increasing the clock is unlikely.

DangerMouse said:
This is the surprising thing of the two, I definitely wouldn't have picked them to be the one that has put it in neither.
Click to expand...
Couple of reasons for that. Sony has just started bringing out dedicated players for UHD now and the prices will bottom out fast.
The Xbox One S is currently worthless for many enthusiasts as a UHD player as well due to lacking support for Atmos. (no bitstream audio) So there is less pressure to compete with it with PS.
PS4 aims to be a console first entertainment hub second, besides Sony sees streaming being more valuable too.

e:
JaseC said:
It's particularly strange as Sony Pictures has released some films on UHD BD.
Click to expand...
Sony's different divisions don't exactly play along well together.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
BradleyLove said:
Sony doesn't currently have any UHD BD player on the market. Why?

There's something weird going on at Sony with regards to UHD BD.
Click to expand...
#1421 two pages back before the PS4 Meeting.

According to Ito:

It wasn't Ito that mentioned game streaming encoder in the APU, it was the author of the article. In the article; Ito says the 2013 PS4 will support two of the coming UHD blu-ray features; HDR and object/positional audio for games through the custom HDMI port but not UHD. HDR requires HDR negotiation passing though the HDMI chip to the game engine which makes the PS4 HDMI port what I would call a 1.4a which is not a HDMI standard. So is the custom port able to communicate with UHD TVs and support HDR over a HDMI 1.4 port or is it a HDMI 2.0a port with only HD output?

Ito said:
　currently, corresponding policies for Ultra HD Blu-ray is of a currently under consideration.
　This is the only want to hear as a story of "For example," but (laughs), and the corresponding ways of setting the Ultra HD Blu-ray can be accommodated top model is considered.
Click to expand...
Business decision and shown with the XB1 slim hardware breakdown, it costs no more from 2015 and later to support UHD Blu-ray than it does to support HD blu-ray given console economy of scale.

Given the interview occurred just before the release of the 2015 PS4 and final designs for the PS4 Slim and Neo would have been locked with chips for the 2016 PS4 already in pre-production, this statement "corresponding policies for Ultra HD Blu-ray is of a currently under consideration." means support is in hardware for releasing UHD on either 2016 and possibly the 2015 console and the only part that could change would be the drive which according to Penello, the difference between HD and UHD drives is a change in the lens which would have no difference in cost.

Sony has not announced UHD blu-ray support in any PS4 console and the PS4 Slim box does not list features like Sony's Upscaling HD blu-ray players list. No list of supported codecs, CD, DLNA just a few IPTV Apps. I believe the above is the reason. No UHD blu-ray support but support for UHD streaming media is also a possible choice.
Click to expand...
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
JaseC said:
He was referring Sony as a whole, not SCE specifically.
Click to expand...
1) First you need that it's a business decision not based on cost or the technology is not available.
2) Two, it's across the board with ALL support for UHD Blu-ray from stand alone to PC for which

Sony has a licence for:

Embedded
Game Console
PC application
PC Drive

Yet none have been released and only a Stand-alone Embedded announced coming by March 2017


Then it requires speculation as to why and you all jump on me for making...I defer this time.

Edit: Just read many of the complaints about no UHD blu-ray on the PS4 Pro. A possible:

1) Sony is going to have a stand alone UHD blu-ray player with digital bridge and extremely large hard disk with room for multiple drives. This device would sit on the home network and Vidipath stream to all platforms in the home. It might also include a DVR and support home movies, pictures and music. AKA an upgraded Nasne.
 
J

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
jeff_rigby said:
First you need that it's a business decision not based on cost or the technology is not available. Then it requires speculation you all jump on me for making...I defer this time.
Click to expand...

I'm getting the impression that we're not on the same page. He asked why Sony as a whole does not have a UHD BD-capable device and you provided an answer in the form of an old post that focuses specifically on the PS4, highlighting "Ito says the 2013 PS4 will support two of the coming UHD blu-ray features; HDR and object/positional audio for games through the custom HDMI port but not UHD" in particular, which isn't much of one as Sony's media device offerings don't begin and end with PlayStation consoles. In fewer words, Ito not committing to UHD content support for the PS4 doesn't offer any insight into why Sony the electronics manufacturer has thus far refused to support the UHD BD with so much as even just one standalone player, which was the question you responded to.
 
A

Adam Tyner

Member
jeff_rigby said:
According to Penello a UHD capable drive requires a firmware update to a HD drive and a new lens. This does not change/increase the cost of a drive.
Click to expand...
Penello said "new optical pickup". There's more to an optical pickup than a single lens. We also don't know for certain that the list of requirements begins and ends there.

onQ123 said:
PS4 , PS4 Slim & PS4 Pro can all support UHD Blu-ray but Sony has choosing not to for whatever reason.
Click to expand...
Not according to Sony! Masayasu Ito cited an inadequate optical drive and the lack of a proper HEVC decoder in the launch PS4. As for the Pro:

Speaking to the Guardian after the company’s PlayStation Meeting event in New York, House said it would not be possible to add support for UHD discs in a later firmware update, but argued that such support was unnecessary.

“Our feeling is that while physical media continues to be a big part of the games business, we see a trend on video towards streaming,” he said. “Certainly with our user base, it’s the second biggest use case for people’s time on the system so we place more emphasis on that area.”
Click to expand...
 
D

Dictator93

Member
A

Adam Tyner

Member
Piccoro said:
So the website Ars Technica is mentioning Jeff Rigby saying that basically he was right, because if the OG PS4 can support HDR, it could also support UHD, which is less demanding than HDR.
Click to expand...
They're taking Rigby at his word about HDCP 2.2, they basically skip over HEVC at UHD BD resolution/bitrates, saying it'd likely have to be fielded in software but ignoring whether or not that's actually feasible, and they don't talk about the optical drive at all. It's not a worthwhile artticle.

The argument here isn't about streaming content in UHD anyway. It's about Ultra HD Blu-ray.
 
P

Piccoro

Member
Adam Tyner said:
They're taking Rigby at his word about HDCP 2.2, they basically skip over HEVC at UHD BD resolution/bitrates, saying it'd likely have to be fielded in software but ignoring whether or not that's actually feasible, and they don't talk about the optical drive at all. It's not a worthwhile artticle.

The argument here isn't about streaming content in UHD anyway. It's about Ultra HD Blu-ray.
Click to expand...

But is the OG PS4 capable of streaming 4K content? How will the Sony patch enable HDR without HDMI 2.0a?...

Next week we will see what happens, I guess...
 
A

Adam Tyner

Member
Piccoro said:
But is the OG PS4 capable of streaming 4K content?
Click to expand...
Even if it's technically feasible, it doesn't look like that's happening. Sony made it a point to announce that all PS4 devices are getting HDR but mentioned Netflix and YouTube UHD only as arriving with the Pro.
 
N

Negotiator

Member
BradleyLove said:
Sony doesn't currently have any UHD BD player on the market. Why?

There's something weird going on at Sony with regards to UHD BD.
Click to expand...
Sony is not the audiovisual giant they used to be in the 90s/2000s anymore.

Adam Tyner said:
Penello said "new optical pickup". There's more to an optical pickup than a single lens. We also don't know for certain that the list of requirements begins and ends there.
Click to expand...
Triple-layer BD-ROM requires a stronger laser (more mW) as well.

The more layers you add, the harder it is to read all of them.

That's why old PS3s tend to stop reading dual-layer discs after some time... the laser becomes worn out and it's hard to focus on the second layer, let alone a triple layer one.
 
IAmAnAgnostic

IAmAnAgnostic

Member
Piccoro said:
So the website Ars Technica is mentioning Jeff Rigby saying that basically he was right, because if the OG PS4 can support HDR, it could also support UHD, which is less demanding than HDR.
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/...rise-firmware-update-is-4k-around-the-corner/

So congrats, Rigby!
Click to expand...

What.. I mean, this is a pretty simple situation, there is absolutely no reason why the PS4 would be able to support UHD Blu-Ray, and Sony wouldn't mention nor activate it by now, and worst of all they stated that even the PS4 Pro doesn't have it.
 
G

GAMEPROFF

Banned
tuxfool said:
Unfortunately not. It is an actual staff writer at Ars...
Click to expand...
Oh man, lol.

Dvdreview.com has now a article on the same topic, too.
There is even the stuff from yesterday, where one of us pointed out how the fat PS3 was able to put out 3D copied in...
Great journalism on work. Oh man.
 
M

Marty Chinn

Member
Hey Jeff, why doesn't this quote put the final nail in the coffin that you are wrong?

House said it would not be possible to add support for UHD discs in a later firmware update, but argued that such support was unnecessary.
Click to expand...

Are you going to suggest that the head of Sony Interactive Entertainment is lying now?
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
Marty Chinn said:
Hey Jeff, why doesn't this quote put the final nail in the coffin that you are wrong?

Are you going to suggest that the head of Sony Interactive Entertainment is lying now?
Click to expand...
We have this site saying the drive should be able to read version 2 disks and the PS4 Pro will get a firmware update and Ito comments 10/23/2015

http://www.4gamer.net/games/990/G999024/20151021121/ said:
currently, corresponding policies for Ultra HD Blu-ray is of a currently under consideration.
　This is the only want to hear as a story of "For example," but (laughs), and the corresponding ways of setting the Ultra HD Blu-ray can be accommodated top model is considered.
Click to expand...
So how far ahead is a contract signed and Drive selected to be in the PS4 Pro Console. Could they have time to put in a drive that can't read UHD disks and where would they find such a drive?
 
M

Marty Chinn

Member
jeff_rigby said:
We have this site saying the drive should be able to read version 2 disks and the PS4 Pro will get a firmware update and Ito comments 10/23/2015
Click to expand...

You're using one guy's speculation as proof? Seriously? That article is completely speculative without any evidence that proves what he's guessing at. You're going to take that over the firm stance from Andrew House, head of Sony Interactive Entertainment saying flat out there will be no firmware update to add UHD support? How does that make any sense? He's the guy in charge of PlayStation at Sony.
 
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