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UK Nanny State | Oi guv, that there's an assault spoon, innit?

rorepmE

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That paranoia birthed the most powerful nation the planet has ever seen so if that's your argument, then well, paranoia it is!
I wrote a long reply buy lost it. RIP.

The dude thinks self-defense is about squaring up with guy(s) who's primary goal is robbery. Like it's some fight for Guinevere's Honour and your Sir Lancelot.

And if you're a meek manlet who doesn't have the physical capability of mini-Mike Tyson? Guess you're screwed.

Because as you know, criminals love to pick on the strongest victims.
 

KINGMOKU

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I wrote a long reply buy lost it. RIP.

The dude thinks self-defense is about squaring up with guy(s) who's primary goal is robbery. Like it's some fight for Guinevere's Honour and your Sir Lancelot.

And if you're a meek manlet who doesn't have the physical capability of mini-Mike Tyson? Guess you're screwed.

Because as you know, criminals love to pick on the strongest victims.
Sorry for that I've done it multiple times and it never stops aggravating me.

On topic, this is what is uniquely American;

The right of defiance.

No other culture has this right, and its embedded in us, and our entire sense of self is predicated on it as Americans.

The right to stand your ground and take on all comers.

That's the real American exceptionalism.
 

autoduelist

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If your definition of "freedom" is being able to carry a weapon, then that's rather depressing. Freedom would be not having to worry about carrying a weapon, I'd say. Maybe it boils down to how cheap life is viewed over there?


Edit, Samurai swords? Is this a parody. thread? Does anyone have a normal working mind?
Freedom is freedom. It extends as far as the eye can see, as long as it doesn't directly impact another. It's not 'depressing', it's understanding the word and that any limitation is by definition a limitation. That your culture has embraced limitations and reworked the definition of freedom to include them is stereotypically Orwellian.

A free man is not subservient to the state, but rather, the state is subservient to the people. As long as a free person is not harming anyone, he is free to do as he will. The state uses the criminal act to instill fear in the populace, prepping them to give up freedom after freedom 'for the greater good'. This may work in the short term, but governments always grow, never shrink. Every legislator needs a new law under their belt, every nanny has a new rule, every fearmonger has a new threat that needs to be stopped. It may take centuries, but governments inevitably veer towards tyranny. As such, protecting as many rights as possible from government infringement is tantamount to keeping a government on the straight and narrow. This certainly includes self defense, since this also would be required to overturn a government turned authoritarian.

That Britians so ignore their own history boggles my mind. You were aggressors for centuries, and I'm sure many a colonial man wished they were armed as your troops aggressed them and their families. I know my ancestors did, more than once. Thankfully, in America, they had them, though my ancestors before them were not always so lucky. I don't hold ancestral grudges, but I do learn ancestral lessons.

I hope with all my heart you and yours never wish they had a gun. Because you're right, most often you don't need one. But in part, that's the point. As Heinlein said, 'An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Because guns are the great equalizer... there has never been a better anti-rape device, and there never will.

As for blades, a 3 inch blade is a tool, not a weapon. I carry mine everywhere. It's incredibly useful. I do not get strange looks. I do not risk getting arrested. I can walk in front of a cop with it and we'll both smile. I am not breaking the law. My government does not treat me as a criminal first, a citizen later. They view me as a free man.
 

MilkyJoe

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That paranoia birthed the most powerful nation the planet has ever seen so if that's your argument, then well, paranoia it is!
:messenger_grinning:

Freedom is freedom. It extends as far as the eye can see, as long as it doesn't directly impact another. It's not 'depressing', it's understanding the word and that any limitation is by definition a limitation. That your culture has embraced limitations and reworked the definition of freedom to include them is stereotypically Orwellian.

A free man is not subservient to the state, but rather, the state is subservient to the people. As long as a free person is not harming anyone, he is free to do as he will. The state uses the criminal act to instill fear in the populace, prepping them to give up freedom after freedom 'for the greater good'. This may work in the short term, but governments always grow, never shrink. Every legislator needs a new law under their belt, every nanny has a new rule, every fearmonger has a new threat that needs to be stopped. It may take centuries, but governments inevitably veer towards tyranny. As such, protecting as many rights as possible from government infringement is tantamount to keeping a government on the straight and narrow. This certainly includes self defense, since this also would be required to overturn a government turned authoritarian.

That Britians so ignore their own history boggles my mind. You were aggressors for centuries, and I'm sure many a colonial man wished they were armed as your troops aggressed them and their families. I know my ancestors did, more than once. Thankfully, in America, they had them, though my ancestors before them were not always so lucky. I don't hold ancestral grudges, but I do learn ancestral lessons.

I hope with all my heart you and yours never wish they had a gun. Because you're right, most often you don't need one. But in part, that's the point. As Heinlein said, 'An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Because guns are the great equalizer... there has never been a better anti-rape device, and there never will.

As for blades, a 3 inch blade is a tool, not a weapon. I carry mine everywhere. It's incredibly useful. I do not get strange looks. I do not risk getting arrested. I can walk in front of a cop with it and we'll both smile. I am not breaking the law. My government does not treat me as a criminal first, a citizen later. They view me as a free man.
If freedom to you is a fear that your government will take up arms against it's citizens, which by the way you'd last about 5 minutes, see Iraqi army and they had tanks, and the price to pay is so much death, then that's fine, whatever blows your hair back, but I'll take our Orwellian society of no one owning weapons and the knowledge that it is not 1760 and civilization has moved on, it's a lot easier on the mind.

What do you do in life that you find a three inch blade incredibly useful? Getting stones out of your horses' hoof? Plenty of people carry blades here, if they are carpet layers, gardeners, tree fellers, divers etc... no one is going to take a knife off of them or bat an eyelid. These laws are made for the 16 year old hoodie rat that wants respek, bludclot. Rudeboy Rupert carrying a pointy thing at 11pm on a Friday night in Hackney, does not fall into the carrying a tool camp, he's an obvious c*nt and therefore he'll be arrested and his "tool" confiscated. Is that an infringement on his civil liberties? Or a preventative measure?
 

Tesseract

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If your definition of "freedom" is being able to carry a weapon, then that's rather depressing. Freedom would be not having to worry about carrying a weapon, I'd say. Maybe it boils down to how cheap life is viewed over there?


Edit, Samurai swords? Is this a parody. thread? Does anyone have a normal working mind?
freedom is not having the freedom to carry, what?

is this a fantasy world where people don't regularly hurt each other
 
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EviLore

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If freedom to you is a fear that your government will take up arms against it's citizens, which by the way you'd last about 5 minutes, see Iraqi army and they had tanks, and the price to pay is so much death, then that's fine, whatever blows your hair back, but I'll take our Orwellian society of no one owning weapons and the knowledge that it is not 1760 and civilization has moved on, it's a lot easier on the mind.
310+ million guns in civilian hands, 137 million people live in households with guns, 22 million military veterans in the civilian population, 14 million hunters, 30 million sport shooters.

Good luck with literally tens of millions of invisible guerrillas slipping in and out of the civilian population. Tanks are largely irrelevant in such a scenario.

 

MilkyJoe

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310+ million guns in civilian hands, 137 million people live in households with guns, 22 million military veterans in the civilian population, 14 million hunters, 30 million sport shooters.

Good luck with literally tens of millions of invisible guerrillas slipping in and out of the civilian population. Tanks are largely irrelevant in such a scenario.

That NRA really messed you guys up
 
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sahlberg

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What do you do in life that you find a three inch blade incredibly useful? Getting stones out of your horses' hoof? Plenty of people carry blades here, if they are carpet layers, gardeners, tree fellers, divers etc... no one is going to take a knife off of them or bat an eyelid. These laws are made for the 16 year old hoodie rat that wants respek, bludclot. Rudeboy Rupert carrying a pointy thing at 11pm on a Friday night in Hackney, does not fall into the carrying a tool camp, he's an obvious c*nt and therefore he'll be arrested and his "tool" confiscated. Is that an infringement on his civil liberties? Or a preventative measure?
So what you are saying is that:
Because a few handfuls of teenagers in a poor suburb in London use a tool as a weapon
it is justified to create a law to ban that tool from everyone in the whole country.
But it is ok because the law will be only selectively applied to the very small target demographic.


I am not sure what I think it worst.
The silly ban itself or that people think that selectively applying laws between demographics is a good thing.
 

MilkyJoe

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So what you are saying is that:
Because a few handfuls of teenagers in a poor suburb in London use a tool as a weapon
it is justified to create a law to ban that tool from everyone in the whole country.
But it is ok because the law will be only selectively applied to the very small target demographic.
You literally just quoted me saying that's not the case :messenger_grinning:

I am not sure what I think it worst.
The silly ban itself or that people think that selectively applying laws between demographics is a good thing.
:messenger_grinning_smiling:
 
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EviLore

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That NRA really messed you guys up
"there has been one rebellion. that comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. what country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms. the remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. what signify a few lives lost in a century or two? the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it’s natural manure." -Some Guy
 

MilkyJoe

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"there has been one rebellion. that comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. what country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms. the remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. what signify a few lives lost in a century or two? the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it’s natural manure." -Some Guy in 1787
FTFY
 
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Greedings

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As an aside, the biggest issue I see, is that there is no political party to vote for, especially a party who would roll this shit back.

Labour? No thanks, socialism-lite with 1984 overtones.
Tory? Nah, the most mild of conservatives with 1984 overtones. Socially far too left for me.

Who is there in the UK that represents centrist and right wing voters? UKIP is a joke, Brexit is brand new and single issue.
 
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sahlberg

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As an aside, the biggest issue I see, is that there is no political party to vote for, especially a party who would roll this shit back.

Labour? No thanks, socialism-lite with 1984 overtones.
Tory? Nah, the most mild of conservatives with 1984 overtones. Socially far too left for me.

Who is there in the UK that represents centrist and right wing voters? UKIP is a joke, Brexit is brand new and single issue.
For the time being, Tory. At least they are not Totally Authoritarian so once the rule of Tory ends you can rebuild.
UK Left is so crazy left right now that once you vote them into power you might not be able to reverse it. Ever.
 
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DocONally

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:messenger_grinning:



If freedom to you is a fear that your government will take up arms against it's citizens, which by the way you'd last about 5 minutes, see Iraqi army and they had tanks, and the price to pay is so much death, then that's fine, whatever blows your hair back, but I'll take our Orwellian society of no one owning weapons and the knowledge that it is not 1760 and civilization has moved on, it's a lot easier on the mind.

What do you do in life that you find a three inch blade incredibly useful? Getting stones out of your horses' hoof? Plenty of people carry blades here, if they are carpet layers, gardeners, tree fellers, divers etc... no one is going to take a knife off of them or bat an eyelid. These laws are made for the 16 year old hoodie rat that wants respek, bludclot. Rudeboy Rupert carrying a pointy thing at 11pm on a Friday night in Hackney, does not fall into the carrying a tool camp, he's an obvious c*nt and therefore he'll be arrested and his "tool" confiscated. Is that an infringement on his civil liberties? Or a preventative measure?
I gave up on this thread a long time ago, but interested to see it still alive. I like your post, and they just don't get it. What you're saying is exactly the point, that the items being used as weapons are confiscated to protect innocent people against crime. Even if it's a paperclip, if it's being used to attack someone, it will be taken away. Their argument of freedom meaning being able to carry a weapon around is not the point. That's a different culture, we are not allowed to carry guns in the UK. And no one wants to see some chav carrying a hunting knife into Argos with a bunch of drunk yobs behind him in the name of freedom.

However, as I said before in this thread, the American notion of freedom before security, and the pursuit of individual happiness I feel is the fundamental philosophical answer for a healthy society. But that doesn't get rid of twats with knives right now.


I left the UK 9 years ago and the local food shops here in Europe leave massive knives just sitting in the aisles for the staff to use, because the country doesn't have a bad case of mental idiots stabbing folk. But I do get a funny feeling that it's not safe to leave such a deadly tool just sitting in the aisle for any local nutjob to stab the staff (happens all the time in the UK).

Edit: Maybe if the UK allowed for gun ownership on the streets then things would be different. Until then, knives being carried by unsavoury, unresponsible people who don't have a decent reason, should be banned.
 
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KINGMOKU

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310+ million guns in civilian hands, 137 million people live in households with guns, 22 million military veterans in the civilian population, 14 million hunters, 30 million sport shooters.

Good luck with literally tens of millions of invisible guerrillas slipping in and out of the civilian population. Tanks are largely irrelevant in such a scenario.

Its very difficult to have a conversation with someone who doesn't have an understanding about the subject.

I am willing to stake my life on the fact that a rather large portion of our armed forces would "flip" and fight with civilians, not to mention police forces. This is something not often discussed.

In any event, those who dont understand, will never understand unless they experience it for themselves.

The right to be defiant.
 

infinitys_7th

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That NRA really messed you guys up
The US military could barely handle a bunch of farmers and hillbillies in Vietnam and Afghanistan. It is incredibly weak to any sort of guerilla warfare. They would probably lose, especially with all the defectors and support from the local (militarized) police forces.
 
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Greedings

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I fucking doubt it :messenger_grinning_squinting:
The statistic is that London has more violence than New York. Comparatively similar cities, but now London is more violent for the first time in modern history.

The UK is a far less violent place than the US though.
 
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KINGMOKU

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What the fuck is a TV license.
Yeah it's wierd, no doubt but it's how they do things there. It's like a different planet. The wierd threat("get one or get done") over something so benign does make me chuckle though.

It reminds me if the posters with actual tools calling them weapons.

So an interesting factoid;

In April of 2019, a TV license increased to £154.50, which is equivalent to $194.22.

I subscribe to britbox, and it costs me $6.99 a month, or $83.88 a year, or £66.51

I cant help but chuckle at this.(not to mention there is another British TV streaming service available for only 50$ a year so both combined would still be far cheaper then for Brits buying a TV license)

Sorry chaps.
 

prag16

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The wierd threat("get one or get done") over something so benign does make me chuckle though.
I always chuckle with these stupid "threat" catch phrases. "Over the limit: Under arrest." "Click it or ticket."

At least those at least in theory could deal with life and death.

Good crack down on Knife crime , more than 10,000 knives were HANDED in. Goes to shows that the message is getting through
I can't tell if shit like this is serious or facetious. I guess I should assume serious, because the vast majority of the stuff EviLore posted upthread, if I didn't know better, 100% looks like parody.
 
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KINGMOKU

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I always chuckle with these stupid "threat" catch phrases. "Over the limit: Under arrest." "Click it or ticket."

At least those at least in theory could deal with life and death.



I can't tell if shit like this is serious or facetious. I guess I should assume serious, because the vast majority of the stuff EviLore posted upthread, if I didn't know better, 100% looks like parody.
I'll also assume its serious and if you'll notice he states;

"Good crackdown on knife crime" parroting the article as it appeals to his ideology, when it fact this isnt a crackdown on knife crime, but a removal of knives from people carrying them.

There is a distinct difference.

The article also states that "During the week, 1,926 stop and searches were carried out, leading to 136 knife-related arrests."

Rules for this;

"
Stop and search: police powers
A police officer has powers to stop and search you if they have ‘reasonable grounds’ to suspect you’re carrying:
  • illegal drugs
  • a weapon
  • stolen property
  • something which could be used to commit a crime, such as a crowbar
You can only be stopped and searched without reasonable grounds, if it has been approved by a senior police officer. This can happen if it is suspected that:
  • serious violence could take place
  • you’re carrying a weapon or have used one
  • You're in a specific location or area

I guess folks in the U.K. are not all that familiar with politicians using pumped up numbers to Make it look like they are actually policing.

Ah, all that precious safety folks must be feeling and all they had to do was just give up some freedom for it.

Let's do a deep dive into this article and its numbers shall we?

Number one let's start with the headline title itself. Its states that "more then 10,000 knives seized in week..." this is actually false. 10,215 were handed in under amnesty during "operation scepter" so in actuality only 342 knives were actually seized. The headline itself makes it seem as if the police were far more effective with their stop and searches by a factor of almost 6.

The article also states that 1,372 suspects were arrested.

Sounds great, right? I'll get back to that in a minute.

"Officers carried out 3,771 weapons searches" The article doesnt go into detail about this 3,771 number, but it also states that "1,926 stop and searches were carried out" so that means using simple math, and deductive reasoning, 1,845 searches were not done using the stop and search method. Does that mean even more invasive searches, like auto, and even home?

Now about that 1,372 suspects arrested number?

Of that total (1,372) Only 516 were for knife crimes. That means only 37.61% of stop and search arrests were even related to knife crime.

That means that 62.39% of stops in which arrests were made did not involve knife related crime.

So to any person with a rational mind, it looks like the police were using the public's fears of knife crime to actually stop and detain people to find if they had done anything wrong, and were far more effective in that effort then what they were actually set out to do.

What's amazing is that they actually state it!

The deputy assistant commissioner of the National Police Chiefs’ Council Lead for Knife Crime, Duncan Ball, said: “Operation Sceptre brought together all 44 police forces in England and Wales in a co-ordinated effort to take knives off our streets and bring those intent on using them for violence to justice.

“The increase in knife crime in recent months and years is very concerning and as a society we have a responsibility to act."

Right in the public's face, numbers included and its hailed as a great success for knife crime(false)reduction. (Removal of knives. Truth)

Shaping a narrative is much easier when your citizens are unarmed, placid, and actually believe stories like these.

This is why you dont trust the media(never questions the numbers in this article)and always look sideways at authorities.

But, it gets even better! At the end of the article they have the gall to post this;

Since you're here...
… we have a small favour to ask. More people are reading and supporting our independent, investigative reporting than ever before. And unlike many news organisations, we have chosen an approach that allows us to keep our journalism accessible to all, regardless of where they live or what they can afford.
The Guardian is editorially independent, meaning we set our own agenda. Our journalism is free from commercial bias and not influenced by billionaire owners, politicians or shareholders. No one edits our editor. No one steers our opinion. This is important as it enables us to give a voice to those less heard, challenge the powerful and hold them to account. It’s what makes us different to so many others in the media, at a time when factual, honest reporting is critical.
Every contribution we receive from readers like you, big or small, goes directly into funding our journalism. This support enables us to keep working as we do – but we must maintain and build on it for every year to come. Support The Guardian from as little as $1 – and it only takes a minute. Thank you.

Incredible isn't it?
 
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infinitys_7th

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What the fuck is a TV license.
Based on the videos I've seen, private inspectors contracted by the government loicense agency trespass into homes and start harassing people if they have TVs capable of antenna tuning, regardless of if they say they only use it with a PC or other media box.

I've seen a bunch of videos where the inspectors will refuse to leave until the people satisfy requests to turn on the TV and tune it to the public propaganda networks. The inspector will then claim that they have (at least in that instance) used the public system and demand loicense money.

Basically, yet another example of why the US has the 2nd Amendment.

Loicense culture in European countries is insane - neighbors ratting on each other, extorting each other (some German relatives got put through the ringer by a neighbor to cut down a tree due to their crazy laws). In the US, we have licenses to use publically maintained roads and to broadcast some radio signals, and that is just about it. You won't find neighbors threatening to report that you have an extra TV in your bedroom unless you buy them a hedge in the US.
 
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dionysus

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Loicense culture in European countries is insane - neighbors ratting on each other, extorting each other (some German relatives got put through the ringer by a neighbor to cut down a tree due to their crazy laws). In the US, we have licenses to use publically maintained roads and to broadcast some radio signals, and that is just about it. You won't find neighbors threatening to report that you have an extra TV in your bedroom unless you buy them a hedge in the US.
Uhh, we aren't nearly as free as you are implying and have plenty of licenses. We are likely worse than many European countries. Britain actually ranks higher than the US in economic freedom according to the Heritage Foundation.

Here are some ridiculous licenses in the US.

1. You need a license to be a tour guide in DC. Punishable by 90 days prison time.
2. You need a raw milk license on the Federal and often state level. Violators of this license law have been raided by SWAT teams in no knock raids.
3. Texas computer repair/PI license.... Edit: Edited out because didn't hold up to my fact check. It was too ridiculous so I looked more into it. Great example of fake news.
4. Nevada, Louisiana, DC, Florida, and Texas require you to have an Interior Decorators license or it is illegal to advise people on how to spruce up that room.
5. 3 states require a license to install home entertainment systems.
6. 3 states require travel agents to be licensed.
7. 7 states require people who put things in boxes to have a packager license. I am pretty sure Amazon avoids those when picking a distribution center location.
8. Barber's and hair stylists are licensed. 5 states require licenses to be Shampooers. Tennessee requirements to become a shampooer are 70 days of classwork and 2 exams. Hair Stylist licenses can run $10,000 in training and fees and take 1,500 hours of coursework.
9. 7 states require an upholsterer license. This has no requirements other than paying a fee to the government in most cases.
 
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nani17

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Both America and England have massive Gun/Knife issues massive however one seems to be actively trying to resolve the issue and the other well hasn't seemed to have done much.

Columbine was 20 years old that's 7300 days and since then we've had well over 100 plus mass shootings and it only results in guns must be banned/you can't ban guns. Literally every single time and nothing every really get solved. And then when other countries point it out like England people make what I think is an immature response would be "yeah well England has a lot of knife crimes so " again adding no sensible discussion to a growing problem. It's like telling someone I think you drink and bit too much and they say yeah well so do you. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

I'm not saying ban guns but if you think you don't have a gun problem than shit we in Ireland sure as fuck don't have a drinking problem.
 

EviLore

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Both America and England have massive Gun/Knife issues massive however one seems to be actively trying to resolve the issue and the other well hasn't seemed to have done much.

Columbine was 20 years old that's 7300 days and since then we've had well over 100 plus mass shootings and it only results in guns must be banned/you can't ban guns. Literally every single time and nothing every really get solved. And then when other countries point it out like England people make what I think is an immature response would be "yeah well England has a lot of knife crimes so " again adding no sensible discussion to a growing problem. It's like telling someone I think you drink and bit too much and they say yeah well so do you. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

I'm not saying ban guns but if you think you don't have a gun problem than shit we in Ireland sure as fuck don't have a drinking problem.
It's a divisive issue, yeah, but the right to bear arms is constitutionally protected. There have absolutely been changes since Columbine, though. Many schools implemented metal detectors and armed security/police presence on school grounds, and threats or talk about shootings among students are treated very seriously.

Averted mass shootings don't receive anywhere near the same amount of media attention as successful ones.

 

nani17

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It's a divisive issue, yeah, but the right to bear arms is constitutionally protected. There have absolutely been changes since Columbine, though. Many schools implemented metal detectors and armed security/police presence on school grounds, and threats or talk about shootings among students are treated very seriously.

Averted mass shootings don't receive anywhere near the same amount of media attention as successful ones.

I can post a list of mass shootings which would be quadruple that. That's what I'm talking about the guy in Vegas guy in Orlando etc they're not schools. I used Columbine as an example because since then it seems to be happening more and you think Columbine even that kindergarten shooting would have caused a national discussion rather than 2 weeks.

Ask any person outside US when we're in another room and we hear the TV in the background just say Mass shooting 99.9 percent of us would say yep probably America.

Also "bear arms is constitutionally protected" it's an amendment.
 
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Whitesnake

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Uhh, we aren't nearly as free as you are implying and have plenty of licenses. We are likely worse than many European countries. Britain actually ranks higher than the US in economic freedom according to the Heritage Foundation.

Here are some ridiculous licenses in the US.

1. You need a license to be a tour guide in DC. Punishable by 90 days prison time.
2. You need a raw milk license on the Federal and often state level. Violators of this license law have been raided by SWAT teams in no knock raids.
3. Texas computer repair/PI license.... Edit: Edited out because didn't hold up to my fact check. It was too ridiculous so I looked more into it. Great example of fake news.
4. Nevada, Louisiana, DC, Florida, and Texas require you to have an Interior Decorators license or it is illegal to advise people on how to spruce up that room.
5. 3 states require a license to install home entertainment systems.
6. 3 states require travel agents to be licensed.
7. 7 states require people who put things in boxes to have a packager license. I am pretty sure Amazon avoids those when picking a distribution center location.
8. Barber's and hair stylists are licensed. 5 states require licenses to be Shampooers. Tennessee requirements to become a shampooer are 70 days of classwork and 2 exams. Hair Stylist licenses can run $10,000 in training and fees and take 1,500 hours of coursework.
9. 7 states require an upholsterer license. This has no requirements other than paying a fee to the government in most cases.
That comment isn't mine...
 

EviLore

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Really schools shootings. I can post a list of mass shootings which would be quadruple that. That's what I'm talking about the guy in Vegas guy in Orlando etc there not schools and that list shows
Okay? The point was about the landmark Columbine school shooting and the response to it.

Also "bear arms is constitutionally protected" it's an amendment.
The Bill of Rights, and all other ratified Constitutional amendments, are part of the US Constitution.
 

nani17

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Okay? The point was about the landmark Columbine school shooting and the response to it.



The Bill of Rights, and all other ratified Constitutional amendments, are part of the US Constitution.
Which can be changed no? Also not saying ban guns so im not sure why we're talking about the right to bear arms
 
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DeepEnigma

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Whitesnake

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Which can be changed no? Also not saying ban guns
There can be new amendments that nullify old ones, but if they tried to nullify the bill of rights there would be full riots in every city
 
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nani17

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Yes, with a Constitutional Convention. Attempting to ditch any of the Bill of Rights would prompt open revolution.
So again how does any of this solve the issue of these mass shootings? Do you think there is an issue and if so what would you say should be done?
 
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KINGMOKU

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So again how does any of this solve the issue of these mass shootings? Do you think there is an issue and if so what would you say should be done?
Better education, and vigilance.

It's not as if Americans are not aware of gun violence, it's just that most understand it's the price to pay for having this level of freedom.

This was decided long ago, and any attempt to restrict will be met with hostility, with the very tools they wish to restrict. It's a deadly proposition for any politician to make, and they know it. Thus, the 2nd amendment works, as intended.
 

nani17

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Better education, and vigilance.

It's not as if Americans are not aware of gun violence, it's just that most understand it's the price to pay for having this level of freedom.

This was decided long ago, and any attempt to restrict will be met with hostility, with the very tools they wish to restrict. It's a deadly proposition for any politician to make, and they know it. Thus, the 2nd amendment works, as intended.
Again you bring up the amendment I'm not saying remove it nor ban it or even touch it. Just don't understand why every mass shooting it leads to a two-week discussion and nothing gets solved. The same argument over and over you can't ban guns you can't touch the second amendment.

To those, I'd say ok you can't touch it or ban them then give other solutions don't just leave it there because you "won the argument" . Make it a national discussion and not just for two or three weeks. If you're pro-gun at least agree ok I'd like this to be stopped something has to be done we need to talk.

Also, I still pose the question to those in here do you think there is a problem?
 
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infinitys_7th

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Uhh, we aren't nearly as free as you are implying and have plenty of licenses. We are likely worse than many European countries. Britain actually ranks higher than the US in economic freedom according to the Heritage Foundation.

Here are some ridiculous licenses in the US.

1. You need a license to be a tour guide in DC. Punishable by 90 days prison time.
2. You need a raw milk license on the Federal and often state level. Violators of this license law have been raided by SWAT teams in no knock raids.
3. Texas computer repair/PI license.... Edit: Edited out because didn't hold up to my fact check. It was too ridiculous so I looked more into it. Great example of fake news.
4. Nevada, Louisiana, DC, Florida, and Texas require you to have an Interior Decorators license or it is illegal to advise people on how to spruce up that room.
5. 3 states require a license to install home entertainment systems.
6. 3 states require travel agents to be licensed.
7. 7 states require people who put things in boxes to have a packager license. I am pretty sure Amazon avoids those when picking a distribution center location.
8. Barber's and hair stylists are licensed. 5 states require licenses to be Shampooers. Tennessee requirements to become a shampooer are 70 days of classwork and 2 exams. Hair Stylist licenses can run $10,000 in training and fees and take 1,500 hours of coursework.
9. 7 states require an upholsterer license. This has no requirements other than paying a fee to the government in most cases.
Those are licenses of doing business or acting as a professional, and I am sure Britain has the same ones. You are free to reupholster, do hair, etc. on your own. Hell, you are free to drink raw milk if you want it, but not to distribute it. The law against giving interior design advice, if it applies to individuals, would be unconstitutional by the 1st Amendment.

Europe makes you pay loicenses for things in your private life. If you have a clock radio alarm, you pay a loicense tax in Germany. The police spend more time investigating Twitter trolling than real crimes.
 

spandexmonkey

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Again you bring up the amendment I'm not saying remove it nor ban it or even touch it. Just don't understand why every mass shooting it leads to a two-week discussion and nothing gets solved. The same argument over and over you can't ban guns you can't touch the second amendment.

To those, I'd say ok you can't touch it or ban them then give other solutions don't just leave it there because you "won the argument" . Make it a national discussion and not just for two or three weeks. If you're pro-gun at least agree ok I'd like this to be stopped something has to be done we need to talk.

Also, I still pose the question to those in here do you think there is a problem?
I'm personally in the mental health needs to be addressed boat. The current state of psychiatric hospitals in the US is terrible.


The disappearance of long-term-care facilities and psychiatric beds has escalated over the past decade, sparked by a trend toward deinstitutionalization of psychiatric patients in the 1950s and '60s, says Dominic Sisti, director of the Scattergood Program for Applied Ethics of Behavioral Health Care at the University of Pennsylvania.


"State hospitals began to realize that individuals who were there probably could do well in the community," he tells Here & Now's Jeremy Hobson. "It was well-intended, but what I believe happened over the past 50 years is that there's been such an evaporation of psychiatric therapeutic spaces that now we lack a sufficient number of psychiatric beds."


A concerted effort to grow community-based care options that were less restrictive grew out of the civil rights movement and a series of scandals due to the lack of oversight in psychiatric care, Sisti says. While those efforts have been successful for many, a significant group of people who require structured inpatient care can't get it, often because of funding issues.
I do find it odd that they say this without providing any evidence:
While President Trump and others have claimed a connection exists between mental illness and the rise in gun violence, most mental health professionals vehemently disagree.


"There is no real connection between an individual with a mental health diagnosis and mass shootings. That connection according to all experts doesn't exist," says Bethany Lilly of the Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law.
But then you have this:


According to our research, at least 59% of the 185 public mass shootings that took place in the United States from 1900 through 2017 were carried out by people who had either been diagnosed with a mental disorder or demonstrated signs of serious mental illness prior to the attack. (We define a mass public shooting as any incident in which four or more victims are killed with a gun within a 24-hour period at a public location in the absence of military conflict, collective violence or other criminal activity, such as robberies, drug deals or gang turf wars.)

Mother Jones found a similarly high rate of potential mental health problems among perpetrators of mass shootings — 61% — when the magazine examined 62 cases in 2012.
 
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OSC

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Jun 16, 2018
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That NRA really messed you guys up
the nanny state is already turning its arms against its own citizens. Against citizens who cover their faces, citizens who do wrongthink tweets, etc. They seek to unify all speech under the left.
Man ordered to uncover face in front of police camera and then fined £90
Arrests for offensive Facebook and Twitter posts soar in London
human nature doesn't change still as relevant today.
How's that knife crime working out?

Doesn't the UK have more violent crime than the US too?
probably hide crime stats by migrants just like they hid the grooming gang problem.