Uncharted 3 reviews

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NinjaFridge

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X26 said:
The one thing I've always found odd about uncharted criticism is the whole drake killing bad guys thing. It's pretty much standard that the main character you play in pretty much every action game kills far more people than the villain ever could, but somehow it's 'worse' in uncharted?
The less there is to complain about the more the small, stupid things will be blown out of proportion.
 
Oct 27, 2004
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-Pyromaniac- said:
In the end it's important for arne and others working on the game to realize that the reviewers offering harsher criticisms are in the minority. Should the minority be ignored? No. You should parse through them and see what's worth taking into account, and trying to implement those changes in a future title, while making sure you continue to appease the majority who offered rave reviews about the specific type of experience that you've been offering.
It's worth noting the nuance in the debate here. It's not really linearity vs. non-linearity, but punishing linearity where even remotely going off script can often end in awkward non-deaths-that-are-deaths-anyway and a feeling that you're not really even playing.

I say this because I think some people said this about Arkham Asylum, that they want Batman in an open world, and I think Arkham City (which is a good game) was a fairly different experience and that appeals to some people, but the original guided experience was good in all the right ways. So I don't think people want like an OPEN WORLD Uncharted game. God forbid... enough franchises have been corrupted by changing with the times. TOMB RAIDER
 
Sep 28, 2010
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arne said:
oh i don't think its a conspiracy. maybe then the question is, why was that format, which continued from U1 to U2, not a big deal in U2, but now it's back with U3.

i'm not taking issue with what's been said, i'm just trying to get an understanding to it all.
[/quote=arne]


Arne: this is my first reply in this thread I actually just came for the Lulz but seeing you here asking good questions led me to give my two cents about this. (Sorry for the bad english too!)

The first would be your question of why this seemingly change of taste from what was accepted in UC 1 & 2 and what is criticized in 3: the first is the obvious remark that there might be some different reviewers than when UC 2 launched so for those is not a change just first time taking into the franchise.

The second explanation would be that this specific kind of design may be "getting old" with some people, kinda like when Gears popularized cover-based shooting it was all the rage but now is like: "oh another cover-based shooter" maybe there could be a "wear" factor?

In this case i'm not trying to make any assumptions though, just trying to respond to your question.

Also now that you might have the chance to see this, I would like to say that IMHO the best kind of games are those who reward or embrace emergent gameplay, games that give you the tools under specific rules to use your imagination or creativity to do things different, to be "active" in the process, Oh and just in case I know that you guys have your emergent gameplay part in the multiplayer of the game, which is created by the constantly different behavior of other real people.

So that idea, that a poster said, about branching paths, it could be a way to give some flexibility while trying to keep the cinematic part, and one more thing, why the focus on keep gaming constantly, like on one sitting, maybe I misread what you said before but I think that you can keep a pretty good pace even taking into account the fact that your players are not going to play everything in one go.
 
May 12, 2006
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arne said:
because dying sucks. and totally cheap mechanics that lead to dying multiple times because you didn't get the timing right suck more. but we also want to create tension.

i'm being extremely reductive, but that's kind of the gist.
I think Uncharted's platforming is partly recognized for some crazy moments of vertigo, but some way of, I dunno, making platforming health-based (somehow) instead of 'live or die' (defaulting basically to 'live and never die' for reasons that I do agree with). Like, allowing platforming failures in a way where you animate Drake clearly getting hurt because the player fucked up, but still catching the ledge and not falling to his death (but if his health his low enough he *would* fall to his death). Does that make sense at all? I feel like it might at least be worth a shot for investing platforming with greater amounts of tension.

As for the enforced linearity thing where the player automatically dies if they move too far in a certain direction (as opposed to simply not letting them move in that direction), you could probably handle that with wind gusts pushing them back, or various signs that the way they're going is super wrong (up to and including the screen going greyscale if there's a story reason for why Drake would be suffering from the local conditions, e.g. ice cold or desert heat).
 
May 28, 2007
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-germany
@arne:
english is not my first language and i am pretty tired. i finished uc3 and its by far the best uc game to me. i still want to answer your question as good as i can.

one of the problems is that you can be in control of the main character but it still feels like you, as a player, dont really have any impact. there are many moments in uc3 where i can press buttons and drake does something but it doesnt feel like i am in control.

the melee combat for example: in theory i am in full control but its nothing more than a qte. yes, you can punch, counter and grab but it still comes down to: button icon flashes on-screen, press right button. arkham city has almost the same button layout but the fighting feels like i am in full control, have more freedom and it still looks very cinematic.

the dessert: i think most people just expected more from the dessert setting after the first trailer. all you do is press the stick forward and drake walks, thats it. i dont want to walk around in an open world desert (would be pretty boring) but i also dont want to feel like i have no impact as a player. the only difference between a cutscene and gameplay, was to push the analog stick forward (in the dessert scene).

linear, scripted segments are fine when done right.
 
Mar 9, 2010
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Ra1den said:
This is utter nonsense. Name some sandbox games that pull off what Naughty Dog has pulled off with the UC series. Now I'm thinking your just trolling.
Please keep the discussion civil buddy. Thank you :)

In case it wasn't evident what I was saying, let me rephrase kind sir.

  1. Strictly linear design in games by definition means the exclusion of open world elements.
  2. A pure sandbox design (ala Minecraft) excludes linear and sometimes thrilling set-pieces.
  3. Game design that incorporates both linear and open world elements has the most potential.

Also games by their very nature need to get more interactive as tech gets better and time goes by.

Now since there is no pact between reviewers on what a perfect score is or who gets to review which game according to who's tastes, a reality emerges at the higher echelons of the league. The reality is that top tier games need to have a central vision that does not alienate or exclude a large segment of the reviewing world.

World of Goo, Katamari Damacy, Cut the Rope are all fine games, but they do not appeal to a wide enough demographic to rise to historic heights. And the fact of the matter is that those games are all small enough that they could be included as minigames in a larger triple A production and still not impact the overall reception enough.

The Uncharted type of game that has a tight focus, more linear gameplay and reduced interaction does not incorporate pluralism or complementarity. The scores are reflecting that.
 
Apr 23, 2008
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arne said:
because dying sucks. and totally cheap mechanics that lead to dying multiple times because you didn't get the timing right suck more. but we also want to create tension.

i'm being extremely reductive, but that's kind of the gist.
But the possibility of death is what gets the player that sense of achievement when you get through a certain segment, as well as naturally adding to the tension. Prince of Persia 2008 was criticized for its no-risk platforming and death fail-safe because with less risk inevitably comes less reward.

You can have certain platforming sections that are more about depicting some impressive set-piece visual and creatively playing around with camera angles, as was often done in Uncharted 2. But you can ideally also have other platforming sections that take player skill into account - gameplay segments instead of a linear form of traversal that honestly isn't far removed from simply walking, mechanically-speaking.
 
May 4, 2006
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Amir0x said:
The shooting works well on Crushing because there is risk involving, it feels good, enemies can be challenging and flank you or whatever.
Maybe a solution there is to have difficulty associated with more elements than just the shooting. Crushing could narrow the window of success with the platforming, add more crumbling handholds, require more of a running head start before taking a long jump, or remove the platform-assist stuff entirely. Do the same with the puzzle bits and I'd be a happy camper while still keeping things interesting for the mainstream.

Dying doesn't really suck though. Dying from something cheap does. Its probably just a hard line to walk without going too far into one direction.
 

arne

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Zane said:
I understand that it is hard or impossible to get the same leap. But, and I mean this with no disrespect, it doesn't really matter to my review. At the end of the day, I am evaluating the product you have on display. The behind-the-scenes stuff doesn't change how I feel about the game. From what you say, it doesn't seem like you could really do anything about it.

But I can't let that influence my personal opinion. Because I am reviewing the product that my readers are buying. Not the product that could have been.

i didn't mean for my reply to be debating the validity of or points to your review. it seemed like in our little conversation here, it made sense to shed some light on the challenges that were and were not faced in each iteration of the game for the benefit of everyone reading the thread.


although to be fair, now the discussion has moved on to that the product evaluation was made by what it could have (should have?) been, as measured against that leap we made previously between installments. i don't think it's really productive to even attempt to discuss that. i think it does come down to how to manage expectations over the series, which i think as a studio, we'd rather not think about and just make as great a game as we can, one game at a time.
 

jett

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arne said:
spoilers ahoy.

we wouldn't take that control away from you except for a few, in my opinion extremely valid reasons. one is pacing or say emotional manipulation (
desert sequence
) the other is that it sucks from a gameplay perspective.

that part where drake is walking on top of the sand dune. that was originally open so that you weren't just pushing drake down a very limited path. what happened is that in focus testing people kept getting frustrated that they would go off the path and die, over and over again, leading to a point where people wanted to quit. so we had to make that a very small path that you couldn't move away from
That is really completely understandable and I personally don't have any problem with that particular sequence. I never expected an
open world desert
, what we got what pretty much in line with my expectations. But in
the couple of city walks you take I really did expect a teeny bit more interaction, but only because of what you had done in the previous game.
There's also the
chase sequences in the game that are new to the series and visually very cool, but again it's really all about moving forward and doesn't really quire much input from the player, which is expected from that type of game you guys make. You can't take alternate paths to catch your prey or escape your pursuer...
if you could it would be seriously unexpected. When I replay those levels in Crushing nothing's gonna change at all. You know what my favorite level in UC2 is? The village. Why? Because it comes out of nowhere, it's something you would never think of being in an Uncharted game. I think my comments fall in with what Zane was saying, UC3 meets expectations. UC2 exceeded them.

Honestly I don't think reviewers are being very critical of the game anyway, you're getting mostly 9s and 10s and the odd 8 here and there. :p
 
Oct 27, 2004
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NullPointer said:
Maybe a solution there is to have difficulty associated with more elements than just the shooting. Crushing could narrow the window of success with the platforming, add more crumbling handholds, require more of a running head start before taking a long jump, or remove the platform-assist stuff entirely. Do the same with the puzzle bits and I'd be a happy camper while still keeping things interesting for the mainstream.

Dying doesn't really suck though. Dying from something cheap does. Its probably just a hard line to walk without going too far into one direction.
Yup.

General rule is

Dying because it's the game's fault (not your skill level) = Shitty
Dying because it's your fault (and you can learn from it and overcome) = Thumbs up

Also, I'd totally approve of a "crushing" level of platforming difficulty. I know that'd take extra resources and they might not consider it worth it, but if they did do this I would love Crushing to be available from the get go so that I could experience the platforming challenges from the first time with this sort of tension instead of memorizing it on an easier difficulty and then, because I already got it down, having the 'crushing' difficulty feel just as easy anyway.

Really, crushing should just always be unlocked from the start. Is it in Uncharted 3? Doubt it but thought I'd ask :p
 

arne

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Jarmel said:
Well you could make the platforming controls more natural or interesting instead of just pressing X. For example, using more buttons for control as well as some sort of grip meter so that somebody can't hang somewhere for an indefinite amount of time.
pressing X is for the weak. and hurried. ;) in many places you can platform by only using the left stick.
 
Aug 19, 2010
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dreammodule.com
I rememeber in uncharted 1, when scaling the fort, some of the rocks would crumble. They would break as soon as you jumped to another rock. But if you stay on them for long enough, it'll break anyway. and kill you.

In uncharted2, stuff wouldn't break until you move off right?
 
Mar 9, 2010
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narca said:
Some of these reviews remind me of how embarrassingly far behind much of videogame journalism is from the rest of the world.
2 wrongs don't make a right. Large sections of the media failed to address the design shortcomings of Uncharted 2 but they're addressing it now.

Better late then never.
 
Dec 7, 2007
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arne said:
we're trying to make you follow a very specific script as far as the narrative, and to deliver the story and the emotional highs and lows effectively with our format, you have to maintain the pacing so you don't get bored or apathetic. and for us, it's important that we want you to play without stopping, to get the experience of the game as a whole, cohesive experience - so that requires that the game continues to progress constantly. there's different ways to do this, and perhaps new/better tech will expand those options, but I also feel like those options are limited by what feels satisfactory from a gameplay or narrative point of view as well.
The only freedom we had in UC1 and 2 was to tackle the game, limited as it might have been, in our own way and at our own pace. If i wanted to explore and enjoy the beautiful scenery, i could do that. If i wanted to tackle a shoot-out in my own way, laying in cover for hours (so to speak), i could do that. If i wanted to plan a strategy, i could do that. This was the strength of UC1 and UC2. While linear and scripted, the player still had some choice in how he wanted to play the game.

In UC3, you are taking that last bit of freedom away. Currently at Chapter 15, i've encountered at least 4 or 5 situations (if not more), where i had no choice other than to run as fast as i could because "it was a setpiece that was meant to blow me away". It might be fun and impressive once or twice (as was the case with UC2) but it's getting annoying after so many times.

ND also took away the freedom of strategy in the shoot-outs. Since enemies insist on coming after you (probably so we definately should check out the new melee system that is in the game), there isn't any tactics/cover/planning involved. You just try to shoot faster than they do and run around a lot in between.

In a quest to wow and "do better than UC2", ND has taken away that last bit of freedom that was in UC1 and 2, namely the freedom to play the game according to personal preference. In that sense, UC1 and 2 were far less linear and guided than UC3. By doing this, i feel like you took away a big chunkc of the actual gameplay and as such, UC3 is getting closer and closer to watching a movie and pressing buttons at the right time. With UC3, i'm one step closer to feeling like a spectator more than a gamer. As such, i think i would have enjoyed it as much (or even more) looking at someone else playing the game.

To me, UC3 feels like a different game compared to UC1 and 2.
 
Oct 27, 2004
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Raonak said:
I rememeber in uncharted 1, when scaling the fort, some of the rocks would crumble. They would break as soon as you jumped to another rock. But if you stay on them for long enough, it'll break anyway. and kill you.

In uncharted2, stuff wouldn't break until you move off right?
man how long would you stay on the rocks? I haven't played Uncharted 1 since I first got my Ps3 (was the first PS3 game I beat when I bought it, iirc, I think I finished it slightly before MGS4), but Uncharted 2 certainly seemed like an eternity window. Like I said, I never died at all during any platforming segment (unless you count the VERY start when a rock fell on my face off the train because I wasn't paying attention)
 
arne said:
There's an interesting thing concerning the criticism to U3 (and the Uncharted franchise) that's been interesting to notice during the past week-plus

it's almost like one of our core gameplay philosophies - that of that we want to take full control away from the player as little as possible, is working against us (as far as reviews).

it's like we give you a little bit of control where traditionally we may not (escaping from a wall of water, walking through the desert) and then you, as a game player, want more. it opens the door to the question: why am i being "pushed" through this sequence when i should be given more freedom?

there's something about what we do in the game, through gameplay, that seems to make people want uncharted to be an open world game or a much more open world game. and it makes it hard to ignore our linear, scripted moments, compared to other titles that do very similar things.

i personally don't know how to take it sometimes. we can do what we do because it's such a tightly paced, controlled, linear experience.
Hi Arne, good to see you in here to get opinions from your fans. You can't please everyone so don't try. You've got a great template for a game here and I wouldn't change a thing. There are plenty of other games where you can get an open world experience, but nothing can really give you the uncharted experience. People love Nate and Sully and Elena, they love getting to the next cut scene to find out what happens next. I love all the shoot outs. I don't really play first person shooters due to the motion sickness so this is really fun for me. To me Uncharted is a shooter that has a relatable story. If I have to complain about something its probably the platforming stuff, but i guess that's set in stone now.... oh well I hope you can change it for U4.

In terms of open world vs linearity, its frustrating i know to hear the comments coming in, but there's always someone who's going to swing the other way. I think its fine to reduce the amount of options one player has when you get a chase scene or something climatic, thats the point, to focus in on that spectacle.

I guess when people write a review, they write it based on how they feel at that point in time and U3 may have not been what they were expecting or wanted. There's plenty of times when I've seen a movie a second time and liked it so much more because I know where its coming from. I wouldn't go out of your way to please outliers like that, the best thing you can do is read the comments here as people play the game, its the fans of your game that will buy your next game!

Finally there's nothing wrong with your core design, a game needs to be challenging, and the shooter aspects provides those challenges. The puzzle bits were a bit too easy and throwaway in U2, but I know you wanted to get people through the entire game. Silent Hill 2 does a good job of having the same puzzles but with harder difficulty.

oh and arne - Im still a huge fan of the first Uncharted (more than U2), I just love the way you fully explored the island environments or what a deserted island might be like and the whole thing had a more charming story. In U2 the big set pieces were great but there was a lot of globe hopping.


wouwie said:
The only freedom we had in UC1 and 2 was to tackle the game, limited as it might have been, in our own way and at our own pace. If i wanted to explore and enjoy the beautiful scenery, i could do that. If i wanted to tackle a shoot-out in my own way, laying in cover for hours (so to speak), i could do that. If i wanted to plan a strategy, i could do that. This was the strength of UC1 and UC2. While linear and scripted, the player still had some choice in how he wanted to play the game.

In UC3, you are taking that last bit of freedom away. Currently at Chapter 15, i've encountered at least 4 or 5 situations (if not more), where i had no choice other than to run as fast as i could because "it was a setpiece that was meant to blow me away". It might be fun and impressive once or twice (as was the case with UC2) but it's getting annoying after so many times.

ND also took away the freedom of strategy in the shoot-outs. Since enemies insist on coming after you (probably so we definately should check out the new melee system that is in the game), there isn't any tactics/cover/planning involved. You just try to shoot faster than they do and run around a lot in between.

In a quest to wow and "do better than UC2", ND has taken away that last bit of freedom that was in UC1 and 2, namely the freedom to play the game according to personal preference. In that sense, UC1 and 2 were far less linear and guided than UC3. By doing this, i feel like you took away a big chunkc of the actual gameplay and as such, UC3 is getting closer and closer to watching a movie and pressing buttons at the right time. With UC3, i'm one step closer to feeling like a spectator more than a gamer. As such, i think i would have enjoyed it as much (or even more) looking at someone else playing the game.
I think what you say has merit, though i have to play it for myself to see how far down the linear track it has gone. As I said its the shooter elements that are the game's core design and it was fine before, I hope they haven't changed it too much, I still like the massive arenas and big shoot outs.
 
Mar 3, 2010
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arne said:
pressing X is for the weak. and hurried. ;) in many places you can platform by only using the left stick.
Oh I'm definitely aware of that, what I specifally meant was something such as holding Triangle to throw yourself off the ledge(such as a push) or holding O to come off of the ledge in a roll.
 
Apr 16, 2007
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Challenging but interesting platforming has been done in other games. Where the difficult ramps up as the game goes on - the Prince of Persia series is a good one. It did have the advantage of reversing time though...

Forgive me if you've answered this elsewhere - is it true the motion blur is gone? Thanks.,
 
May 8, 2009
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Amir0x said:
I guess extreme philosophical differences here then. I feel like you've created these amazing LOOKING moments that just have all the excitement sucked out of them because, well, there's no actual danger, no risk for not actually overcoming the challenge. The shooting works well on Crushing because there is risk involving, it feels good, enemies can be challenging and flank you or whatever. And let me say I understand the idea of a breather - that village segment in Uncharted 2 was a brilliant way to let the player take a breath (side note: loved how you turned it on its head later) - but I just think we need more village moments for that sort of thing, I don't think I should be feeling that way during crazy platforming segments when buildings are falling over my head and ledges are collapsing over a 5000ft ledge. Maybe it's just me, but I would LOVE to die and be like "oh fuck that was tense as hell."
Edit: browser ate most of my text, here it is;

...Huh. I suppose that's what I've experienced with the game too. I finished it an hour ago, writing up my review soon. In Uncharted 2, there was a genuine feeling of risk and "oh god oh god oh god I'm going to die" in every set piece, but Uncharted 3 didn't have as many of those moments. You always know that Nate is going to make it to the end, battered and bruised as he is. There are times where you make it through things by the skin of your teeth, but there are also moments where you know things are going to turn out just fine. Of course, this mirrors most adventure movies too. You always know that the dashing Dr Jones is going to make it to the end and kiss the girl.

I suppose in Uncharted 2 there were higher highs and lower lows. The Nepal sequence was a magnificently relaxing scene following an incredibly exhilarating action scene. There's one moment in Uncharted 3 which mirrored that feeling, just after the E3 demo sequence ended (hope that's vague enough for Arne to get what I mean by that, the cutscene after all that craziness was incredibly well done and cathartic.) By comparison, Uncharted 3 is more of a thrill ride, but one where the curve isn't quite as undulating from high to low. It feels a little... Smoother. The highs are higher, but the lows don't quite balance it out.

Hope that makes sense, I will say that the story is even better than Uncharted 2's was. Unexpected elements to characters, better villains, and my favourite new character in quite some time. I love him so much, the line about "minutes" had me laughing.
 
Oct 27, 2004
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deepbrown said:
Challenging but interesting platforming has been done in other games. Where the difficult ramps up as the game goes on - the Prince of Persia series is a good one. It did have the advantage of reversing time though...

Forgive me if you've answered this elsewhere - is it true the motion blur is gone? Thanks.,
Princes of Persia... not the 2008 one but the Forgotten Sands one... has some really phenomenal high intensity platforming sequences, beyond anything one ever even approaches in an Uncharted game. That'd be my dream Uncharted game... platforming with the challenge level of Prince of Persia, with the shooting of U2, with the uniformity of vision of U1. I'd die a happy man.



The part where you start getting the water freezing platforming is just brilliant from the start to the very end of the game

V_Ben said:
...Huh. I suppose that's what I've experienced with the game too. I finished it an hour ago, writing up my review soon. In Uncharted 2, there was a genuine feeling of risk and
How is it genuine if there is hardly any risk? It's faked risk in that case; I just saw through it. You apparently didn't or allowed yourself to be fooled (?)
 
Dec 26, 2007
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arne said:
because dying sucks. and totally cheap mechanics that lead to dying multiple times because you didn't get the timing right suck more. but we also want to create tension.

i'm being extremely reductive, but that's kind of the gist.
No, I'm sorry, just... no. Yeah, dying does suck in games, that's why I play games. Games are interactive, everything you see is done by your own hands. If you think dying sucks, why not make all your enemies attacks completely harmless? Hell, why have enemies in the first place!?

Timing, skills, brains, are just some of the things we use when we play games. When you take away skills, what are we left with? Why do you want me to press a button to do something that I can't fail at? How would that make it any different from Dragon's Lair?

Now Uncharted certainly isn't like Dragon's Lair level of interaction, but if dying sucks is a reason to remove anything that's remotely challenging, then count me out.

I'm not some super skilled gamer either. I never beat Ninja Gaiden or Zelda 2, but I sure as hell don't want my games to be like Kirby's Epic Yarn either.
 

arne

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Amir0x said:
It's worth noting the nuance in the debate here. It's not really linearity vs. non-linearity, but punishing linearity where even remotely going off script can often end in awkward non-deaths-that-are-deaths-anyway and a feeling that you're not really even playing.
that "something bad happens if you go off path" exists in many other games, and are handled in different ways. i don't agree with some of them, just as some people don't agree with ours. perhaps this particular issue can be handled it if we went a different way about it. i don't know if that fits with the narrative or gameplay we have.


S1kkZ said:
@arne:
one of the problems is that you can be in control of the main character but it still feels like you, as a player, dont really have any impact. there are many moments in uc3 where i can press buttons and drake does something but it doesnt feel like i am in control.

the melee combat for example: in theory i am in full control but its nothing more than a qte. yes, you can punch, counter and grab but it still comes down to: button icon flashes on-screen, press right button. arkham city has almost the same button layout but the fighting feels like i am in full control, have more freedom and it still looks very cinematic.
what's interesting when you bring up arkham city is maybe something worthwhile for us to take from - they have the exact same thing, only you don't see a button on screen. it's just the lightning bolts around the head of the guy you need to hit Y to counter. That would be a challenge since how do we accurately telegraph that you need to counter in a more realistic sense? so i guess we went really game-y with it by giving you the button press, but the mechanics are the same for that particular bit.



Marius_ said:
Arne can you answer stuff about the plot? many of us have questions in the spoiler thread.

is that the OT? I haven't refreshed that yet so i don't forget to keep chasing after a few answers. if not, can you link me to those questions?
 
D

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Arne, I love you dude, but you're the kid walking up the front of the class and complaining to teacher because you got an A- instead of an A+, while the rest of the class is super happy because they got a B.
 
May 4, 2006
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Rez said:
Arne, I love you dude, but you're the kid walking up the front of the class and complaining to teacher because you got an A- instead of an A+, while the rest of the class is super happy because they got a B.
Nothing wrong with going for an A+. Hell Arne, don't stop until you get the game S-ranked by everybody. ;P

Zeliard said:
This trail-off is ominous.

Ominous indeed.
Looks like somebody missed their handhold.
 
Oct 27, 2004
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arne said:
that "something bad happens if you go off path" exists in many other games, and are handled in different ways. i don't agree with some of them, just as some people don't agree with ours. perhaps this particular issue can be handled it if we went a different way about it. i don't know if that fits with the narrative or gameplay we have.
oh trust me I know. Uncharted is just one example. It's a industry trend, really. It's a good thing up for discussion. Is it worth the criticism, is it not?

Ultimately it IS going to come down to taste. My taste would prefer slightly more fluid and natural 'limitations', rather than feeling shoved down holes so-to-speak. But it's a complicated problem. I am not sure there is an easy answer...








...except to the platforming challenges. That's easy, you just have a philosophical difference of agreement ;)
 
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Amir0x said:
Princes of Persia... not the 2008 one but the Forgotten Sands one... has some really phenomenal high intensity platforming sequences, beyond anything one ever even approaches in an Uncharted game. That'd be my dream Uncharted game... platforming with the challenge level of Prince of Persia, with the shooting of U2, with the uniformity of vision of U1. I'd die a happy man.



The part where you start getting the water freezing platforming is just brilliant from the start to the very end of the game



How is it genuine if there is hardly any risk? It's faked risk in that case; I just saw through it. You apparently didn't or allowed yourself to be fooled (?)
I buggered up the posting, the rest is in there now. I mean that Uncharted 2 had moments where everything was happening so quickly that your actions as a player dictated if you were going to live or die. A bad jump on a train or truck meant death. U3 feels like it's helping you a bit more.
 
Apr 16, 2007
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Rez said:
Arne, I love you dude, but you're the kid walking up the front of the class and complaining to teacher because you got an A- instead of an A+, while the rest of the class is super happy because they got a B.
Actually, it sounds like he's trying to learn from the fans so he can make the next game better. Don't think anyone should be complaining for having that chance.

I'm sure there are many ways to ramp up the difficulty of platforming. Introducing other buttons would be a good idea for a start - different mechanics as well.

The platforming in Assassin's Creed is incredibly poor as well (but I guess it needs to be for the escapes). Really the previous POP games did platforming so well - but again they had ways to tackle the 'no annoying dying' problem.
 

arne

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Rez said:
Arne, I love you dude, but you're the kid walking up the front of the class and complaining to teacher because you got an A- instead of an A+, while the rest of the class is super happy because they got a B.
but that's NOT what I'm saying. i'm not quibbling over the existing reviews or review scores.

What I AM doing is that I'm going to office hours to find out how next time, what to do so i can get an A+.
 

arne

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Amir0x said:
oh trust me I know. Uncharted is just one example. It's a industry trend, really. It's a good thing up for discussion. Is it worth the criticism, is it not?

Ultimately it IS going to come down to taste. My taste would prefer slightly more fluid and natural 'limitations', rather than feeling shoved down holes so-to-speak. But it's a complicated problem. I am not sure there is an easy answer...


...except to the platforming challenges. That's easy, you just have a philosophical difference of agreement ;)

so what you're asking for is us to bring in Jak levels of platforming difficulty? ;)
 
Mar 9, 2010
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Linearity vs No-linearity is not the question here.

The question here is, why are Uncharted fans and Naughty Dog feeling hard done by the overall positive reviews?

The game is one of the most coveted games so far this year, so where is the injustice?
 
Oct 27, 2004
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V_Ben said:
I buggered up the posting, the rest is in there now. I mean that Uncharted 2 had moments where everything was happening so quickly that your actions as a player dictated if you were going to live or die. A bad jump on a train or truck meant death. U3 feels like it's helping you a bit more.
Ah, got you. Well, I'll see how it goes tomorrow. I haven't played Uncharted 2 since I finished my crushing run when it came out, so maybe my memory is just settling on how easy the platforming was and forgetting other things that were tense (the shooting remains tense), but I hope U3 is at least a visual joy. I like that much of it no matter what goes down, that much is guaranteed.

arne said:
so what you're asking for is us to bring in Jak levels of platforming difficulty? ;)
Fuck me would you do that? I'd buy eighteen copies. :D
 
May 28, 2007
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arne said:
what's interesting when you bring up arkham city is maybe something worthwhile for us to take from - they have the exact same thing, only you don't see a button on screen. it's just the lightning bolts around the head of the guy you need to hit Y to counter. That would be a challenge since how do we accurately telegraph that you need to counter in a more realistic sense? so i guess we went really game-y with it by giving you the button press, but the mechanics are the same for that particular bit.
its not that. the melee feels slow and a bit clunky. i felt disconnected. in arkham its more or less the same formula but i, as a player, can do more with it. i can choose which enemy to take down, how to take him down, which tools (ok, drake has no tools) or moves do i use and so on. in uc3 its punch, press triangle or hammer on the circle button. i think you could do a much better, fluid fighting system with the same button layout and without getting more complicated.
 
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Amir0x said:
Ah, got you. Well, I'll see how it goes tomorrow. I haven't played Uncharted 2 since I finished my crushing run when it came out, so maybe my memory is just settling on how easy the platforming was and forgetting other things that were tense (the shooting remains tense), but I hope U3 is at least a visual joy. I like that much of it no matter what goes down, that much is guaranteed.



Fuck me would you do that? I'd buy eighteen copies.
You really don't need to worry about that. There are vista moments that blow shambala's reveal out of the bloody water.
 
Oct 27, 2004
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V_Ben said:
You really don't need to worry about that. There are vista moments that blow shambala's reveal out of the bloody water.
that was some reveal too

anything that tops U2's falling building/train levels?

Don't tell me what they are, just if in your estimation they existed. That train level was so amazing compared the train levels in most games.
 
D

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Don't get me wrong, the discussion in here has been cool. The game isn't out here for another day or two, so I can't actually add anything of substance.
 
Oct 23, 2010
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Amir0x said:
I guess extreme philosophical differences here then. I feel like you've created these amazing LOOKING moments that just have all the excitement sucked out of them because, well, there's no actual danger, no risk for not actually overcoming the challenge. The shooting works well on Crushing because there is risk involving, it feels good, enemies can be challenging and flank you or whatever. And let me say I understand the idea of a breather - that village segment in Uncharted 2 was a brilliant way to let the player take a breath (side note: loved how you turned it on its head later) - but I just think we need more village moments for that sort of thing, I don't think I should be feeling that way during crazy platforming segments when buildings are falling over my head and ledges are collapsing over a 5000ft ledge. Maybe it's just me, but I would LOVE to die and be like "oh fuck that was tense as hell."
I kind of share the desire for more challenging platforming, but it would also be a double edged sword. If you make the platforming mechanics much more difficult, then it becomes a hassle to use them in the middle of firefights. One of the best parts of Uncharted is the awesome vertical level design used in the firefights, and this would just become frustrating if the platforming was difficult.
 

EloquentM

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Jul 1, 2011
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Segnit said:
Linearity vs No-linearity is not the question here.

The question here is, why are Uncharted fans and Naughty Dog feeling hard done by the overall positive reviews?

The game is one of the most coveted games so far this year, so where is the injustice?
look not but three posts above yours and you'll find the answer
 
Jun 7, 2004
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KingK said:
I kind of share the desire for more challenging platforming, but it would also be a double edged sword. If you make the platforming mechanics much more difficult, then it becomes a hassle to use them in the middle of firefights. One of the best parts of Uncharted is the awesome vertical level design used in the firefights, and this would just become frustrating if the platforming was difficult.
well then don't have them during (intense) firefights. make the challenge all about the platforming and problem-solving.
 
Dec 26, 2007
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KingK said:
I kind of share the desire for more challenging platforming, but it would also be a double edged sword. If you make the platforming mechanics much more difficult, then it becomes a hassle to use them in the middle of firefights. One of the best parts of Uncharted is the awesome vertical level design used in the firefights, and this would just become frustrating if the platforming was difficult.
That just comes back to designing and tweaking your game.

Think Star Tropics.
 
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