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Unreal Engine 5 revealed! Real-Time Prototype Gameplay Demo Running On PS5

Andodalf

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What does this tweet from Tim mean?

I think he's impying it going above 30 fps doesn't mean it preformed better than the PS5. Perhaps PS5's dynamic res was capped at 1440p, and combined with the fps cap there was overhead, compared to this demo going full bore

It means the PS5 could actually be rendering it over 50 fps, but because they couldn't reach 60 locked with vsync they locked it at 30.
Idk if id expect to to bear near 50fps, seeing has how they talk about dynamic scaling coming into play even with the 30 fps cap, but peaking in the 50s might not be out of the question at all, or even running really well in the first areas, maybe even 60, but going with the 30 fps cap due to the big room and outdoor areas not locking to 60 in them. Theres really a ton of ways it could go.
 
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Ascend

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Idk if id expect to to bear near 50fps, seeing has how they talk about dynamic scaling coming into play even with the 30 fps cap, but peaking in the 50s might not be out of the question at all, or even running really well in the first areas, maybe even 60, but going with the 30 fps cap due to the big room and outdoor areas not locking to 60 in them. Theres really a ton of ways it could go.
Yeah the 50+ fps, I just threw it out there. He is implying it is performing better than 40fps on the laptop though, so I based it on that, and on the fact that they are still targeting to reach 60fps with the same quality.
 
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Remij

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It means the PS5 could actually be rendering it over 50 fps, but because they couldn't reach 60 locked with vsync they locked it at 30.
I think it's quite obvious which sections of the demo are going to run more performant than others.. so saying that it's rendering over 30 isn't really saying much. The more important thing is that there's areas where the resolution actually has to drop to maintain 30fps. Again, we could probably guess which areas of the demo those are.

That said... they're pushing very excessive parameters to prove a point. With more optimization at the engine level, as well as the demo code, they will very likely hit their target of 1440p60. It's very early days yet.
 

OSC

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Which was, essentially, the asset streaming very likely wasn't at a level where a SSD I/O as robust as PS5's was an absolute necessity to perform.
It seems they've said even sata isn't sufficient. And it appears to get it to run on their nvmes they even had to optimize data layout on the ssd for the flight section(or else why would they optimize data layout?). Optimizing data layout is only possible when the path is known and fixed, an open world game with free travel will not be possible to optimize data layout.
 
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It seems they've said even sata isn't sufficient. And it appears to get it to run on their nvmes they even had to optimize data layout on the ssd for the flight section(or else why would they optimize data layout?). Optimizing data layout is only possible when the path is known and fixed, an open world game with free travel will not be possible to optimize data layout.
The thing is there's different levels of SATA. SATA I, SATA II, SATA III, and smaller steppings within those that upgrade various specifications. There's also SATA Express, an evolution of sorts from SATA III. If SATA wasn't sufficient, they should maybe specify up to what point. SATA I, for example, I'd figure is obviously not sufficient, but SATA III might be. See?

As for the other things, yes I'd agree that it's much easier to sort out the data layout more easily in a linear-based game since the paths are generally fixed (as they certainly were in the demo; we saw zero double-backing along the path or branching points, it was heavily scripted), but for this specific type of demo, that's why I said the PS5's SSD was probably not being stressed too much (and why the demo, including the flying sequence, could be easily done with drives much lower than PS5's spec).

What does this tweet from Tim mean?

Sounds like Tim being Tim xD. Jokes aside, I think he's just trying to wave off any insinuation that because the demo appeared to run better on the laptop (since it was hitting 40 FPS), that doesn't mean the PS5 is "weaker" than the laptop's specs. The framerate was uncapped on the laptop demo run for example, whereas for the PS5 demo they decided to lock the framerate to 30.

Some people would probably try using the higher FPS performance of the laptop demo as a means of drudging back up stuff like "9.2 TF confirmed" or whanot; while I don't think the game was stressing the GPU to its peak performance levels (let alone not being fully optimized), and it was using a profile since it's on a devkit, that shouldn't in any way be grounds for people to try spinning it into claiming PS5 is a weak console, or trying to open back up the dumb arguments like it's RDNA1, etc. etc.
 
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Shmunter

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The thing is there's different levels of SATA. SATA I, SATA II, SATA III, and smaller steppings within those that upgrade various specifications. There's also SATA Express, an evolution of sorts from SATA III. If SATA wasn't sufficient, they should maybe specify up to what point. SATA I, for example, I'd figure is obviously not sufficient, but SATA III might be. See?

As for the other things, yes I'd agree that it's much easier to sort out the data layout more easily in a linear-based game since the paths are generally fixed (as they certainly were in the demo; we saw zero double-backing along the path or branching points, it was heavily scripted), but for this specific type of demo, that's why I said the PS5's SSD was probably not being stressed too much (and why the demo, including the flying sequence, could be easily done with drives much lower than PS5's spec).
Personally I think you could stress the PS5 drive even in a single room scenario just from basic 360 rotation if you wanted to.
 

FranXico

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It means the PS5 could actually be rendering it over 50 fps, but because they couldn't reach 60 locked with vsync they locked it at 30.
The alternative would be tearing frames all over the place. They're still working on improving performance on consoles.
 

OSC

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The thing is there's different levels of SATA. SATA I, SATA II, SATA III, and smaller steppings within those that upgrade various specifications. There's also SATA Express, an evolution of sorts from SATA III. If SATA wasn't sufficient, they should maybe specify up to what point. SATA I, for example, I'd figure is obviously not sufficient, but SATA III might be. See?

As for the other things, yes I'd agree that it's much easier to sort out the data layout more easily in a linear-based game since the paths are generally fixed (as they certainly were in the demo; we saw zero double-backing along the path or branching points, it was heavily scripted), but for this specific type of demo, that's why I said the PS5's SSD was probably not being stressed too much (and why the demo, including the flying sequence, could be easily done with drives much lower than PS5's spec).
What we know is that even running off of nvmes it seems like optimized data layout was required for some section. Otherwise they wouldn't need to do such layout optimization for nvmes. This suggests it would stress or exceed the capacity even of nvme drives otherwise.

Maybe direct storage solves this issue, we just don't know. As is the laptop does not seem like it would fare well with fast travel in open worlds which would lack optimized data layout.
 
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Personally I think you could stress the PS5 drive even in a single room scenario just from basic 360 rotation if you wanted to.
Eh, it really depends on how it's being rendered through the engine, what software algorithms and scripts are in use, and tons of other complicated stuff. I do think rapid 360-degree spins would be a bit more of a "strain" on the SSD tho (don't like using that term, makes it sound like it's struggling but if it were that'd only be due to lack of optimization, this early on).

What we know is that even running off of nvmes it seems like optimized data layout was required for some section. Otherwise they wouldn't need to do such layout optimization for nvmes. This suggests it would stress or exceed the capacity even of nvme drives otherwise.

Maybe direct storage solves this issue, we just don't know. As is the laptop does not seem like it would fare well with fast travel in open worlds which would lack optimized data layout.
Yeah, it would definitely suggest that on PC side there is likely a file I/O, API and maybe driver limitations at play, plus any possible given overhead, some of which could just even be due to other system processes of other applications/services running.

Hopefully DirectStorage on PC changes a lot (if not all) of that for the better; IIRC it's being designed with XSX in mind first and then transitioning over to PC, not the other way around. So that should help with setting up a standardization of a baseline and variations on how some aspects of it work on PC can be done to accommodate some different hardware configurations.

The neat thing there is that, since it's a software-targeting solution, it can be relatively easy to update and improve as time goes on. And I would expect the XSX has enough hardware headroom to accommodate many of those updates. All the same, Sony aught to be able to do updates for firmware code to their SSD I/O, though it'll only be on their platform and compatible with approved 3rd-party drives.

Which is a part I'm still very curious about them actually getting done right; they can't really control how 3rd-parties build their drives, and I doubt many will make PS5-specific SSDs. We'll see how that shakes out.
 
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2:55 and on

Basically says that he thinks SSDs need to start becoming standard/common on PCs or PCs will need to start having more RAM to compensate. At least that is how I understood it

Talks about the chinese dev laptop situation

9:24

speculates that theoretically Lumen would run better on XsX due to GPU

9:50

says Nanite will probably work better on PS5 due to SSD
 
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ZywyPL

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Basically says that he thinks PCs need to start becoming standard/common on PCs or PCs will need to start having more RAM to compensate. At least that is how I understood it

PC inside PC? PCception! ;P The thing is, gaming PCs already have twice as much memory as next-gen consoles (24-27GB), and with upcoming AMD and NV GPUs and DDR5 next year the total amount of memory in PCs will triple-quadruple, so they won't need to rely so heavily on streaming, if at all. Lets say we have 40GB worth of assets, and only 13GB to store them vs 24 vs 32 vs 48, and so on.

Talks about the chinese dev laptop situation

9:24

speculates that theoretically Lumen would run better on XsX due to GPU

9:50

says Nanite will probably work better on PS5 due to SSD
I think the consoles will, as always, use a mix of medium-high settings, let's say 3-4 polygons/pixel, while 5-6 polys will be left as very high-ultra for PCs, and of course 1-2 being lowes-low, for potatoe PCs, smartphones and tablets. And with lower geometry complexity Lumen will be as well lighter to calculate. So all in all, the end results should be VERY similar in multiplatform titles.
 
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Elog

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PC inside PC? PCception! ;P The thing is, gaming PCs already have twice as much memory as next-gen consoles (24-27GB), and with upcoming AMD and NV GPUs and DDR5 next year the total amount of memory in PCs will triple-quadruple, so they won't need to rely so heavily on streaming, if at all. Lets say we have 40GB worth of assets, and only 13GB to store them vs 24 vs 32 vs 48, and so on.
While I lack the exact numbers it is reasonable to assume that the amount of memory required to store sufficient amount of high quality assets is higher than that. If your assumption would be correct, why did Sony not just up the RAM of the console instead of implementing a very expensive and advanced SSD plus I/O architecture? The only logical conclusion from that is that it was more cost efficient to implement the SSD plus I/O architecture and hence that the RAM number is much higher than the one you assume.
 
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PC inside PC? PCception! ;P The thing is, gaming PCs already have twice as much memory as next-gen consoles (24-27GB), and with upcoming AMD and NV GPUs and DDR5 next year the total amount of memory in PCs will triple-quadruple, so they won't need to rely so heavily on streaming, if at all. Lets say we have 40GB worth of assets, and only 13GB to store them vs 24 vs 32 vs 48, and so on.



I think the consoles will, as always, use a mix of medium-high settings, let's say 3-4 polygons/pixel, while 5-6 polys will be left as very high-ultra for PCs, and of course 1-2 being lowes-low, for potatoe PCs, smartphones and tablets. And with lower geometry complexity Lumen will be as well lighter to calculate. So all in all, the end results should be VERY similar in multiplatform titles.
man I’ve been posting typos like crazy, meant SSDs

My brain is melting
 
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oldergamer

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I wish Epic would just release the memory usage specs so everyone gets a better idea of how much bandwidth it used, how many unique meshes, the size of meshes, how many unique textures, etc. This would go very far to clearing up a lot of assumptions people are making.
 

Elog

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Some of you are still operating as if the peak speed of the SSD is the key driver. It is the latency that is key. The SSD just needs to have a sufficiently high peak speed number - my assumption would be that most high-end SSDs fulfil that specification already today. Latency however? PCs are left in the dustbin with the current PC architecture. My belief is that XSX will struggle compared to the PS5 as well based on what has been communicated.

How many of you have ever asked yourself why there is RAM on a graphics card when you have RAM on the MB? Why you have cache memory on your CPU die when you have RAM on your MB? Latency, latency and latency. That is why Cerny spent such a long time on this in his tech speech - that is the secret sauce - the latency for a single call of a file from the SSD and the amount of calls that can be made in parallel.

I am so looking forward to look at titles that take advantage of this.
 
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Some of you are still operating as if the peak speed of the SSD is the key driver. It is the latency that is key. The SSD just needs to have a sufficiently high peak speed number - my assumption would be that most high-end SSDs fulfil that specification already today. Latency however? PCs are left in the dustbin with the current PC architecture. My belief is that XSX will struggle compared to the PS5 as well based on what has been communicated.

How many of you have ever asked yourself why there is RAM on a graphics card when you have RAM on the MB? Why you have cache memory on your CPU die when you have RAM on your MB? Latency, latency and latency. That is why Cerny spent such a long time on this in his tech speech - that is the secret sauce - the latency for a single call of a file from the SSD and the amount of calls that can be made in parallel.

I am so looking forward to look at titles that take advantage of this.
What is XsX also has made a marked improvement over gaming PCs in the latency department? Maybe not at PS5’s level, but still significant?
 
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Elog

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What is XsX also has made a marked improvement over gaming PCs in the latency department? Maybe not at PS5’s level, but still significant?
I assume they have - but so far there is nothing that indicates that MS hves pushed their system to a point where the SSD can be used as a streaming device for assets that are utilised on screen in the same way as the PS5. You are right though that the absence of such information does not been it is not there. However, so far most things line up for the PS5 here (Cerny's speech, TS comments regarding the Unreal 5 demo etc). We will of course know within the next few months but I think it is far fetched right now to assume that the XSX has the latency required to use the SSD in the same way even though it is a good and solid SSD that will reduce load times a lot.
 
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martino

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So that means the compressed 4.8 GB/s of the XSX would be enough to do the same thing, especially if combined with SFS.
no because it's half a second
you should read 8gb/s or 4gb/0.5s it was portly worded
 
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Ascend

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no because it's half a second
you should read 8gb/s or 4gb/0.5s it was portly worded
Ah. I get it. He's using the compressed 8GB/s metric and saying that turning takes about half a second, and that in that time timespan you can load 4GB of data.
 

oldergamer

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I assume they have - but so far there is nothing that indicates that MS hves pushed their system to a point where the SSD can be used as a streaming device for assets that are utilised on screen in the same way as the PS5. You are right though that the absence of such information does not been it is not there. However, so far most things line up for the PS5 here (Cerny's speech, TS comments regarding the Unreal 5 demo etc). We will of course know within the next few months but I think it is far fetched right now to assume that the XSX has the latency required to use the SSD in the same way even though it is a good and solid SSD that will reduce load times a lot.
Wait, of course the SSD can be used as a streaming device. Any hard drive can be with a lower iO/O bandwidth threshold. Streaming isn't new, but having a lot of i/o bandwidth on consoles is something new.

I would be very surprised if MS didn't take latency into account when developing their velocity tech. It almost wouldn't make any sense if they ignored it. They still haven't given the full picture on what it can do and are holding somethings back for later. They introduces a lot of changes to alleviate bottlenecks and I'm sure this must be factored in.

Here's a question, have we seen ANY NVME device deliver its peak performance consistently? I have one of the samsung EVO drives and it certainly has its moments when a read is extremely fast. However it rarely lives up to its specs of:

- read/write speeds of 3,500/2,500 MB/s

I still think people are freaking out over a on paper speed difference that will end up being a lower bandwidth in real-world usage. There's two things we don't know.

1. How much i/O bandwidth was Unreal 5 using on PS5 ( what was the load per frame?)
2. The number of textures, meshes, sizes and size of of all the assets
3. Were they using any compression at all
 
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Some of you are still operating as if the peak speed of the SSD is the key driver. It is the latency that is key. The SSD just needs to have a sufficiently high peak speed number - my assumption would be that most high-end SSDs fulfil that specification already today. Latency however? PCs are left in the dustbin with the current PC architecture. My belief is that XSX will struggle compared to the PS5 as well based on what has been communicated.

How many of you have ever asked yourself why there is RAM on a graphics card when you have RAM on the MB? Why you have cache memory on your CPU die when you have RAM on your MB? Latency, latency and latency. That is why Cerny spent such a long time on this in his tech speech - that is the secret sauce - the latency for a single call of a file from the SSD and the amount of calls that can be made in parallel.

I am so looking forward to look at titles that take advantage of this.
Latency is one of the things MS is pushing this next gen
 

Elog

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Here's a question, have we seen ANY NVME device deliver its peak performance consistently? I have one of the samsung EVO drives and it certainly has its moments when a read is extremely fast. However it rarely lives up to its specs of:

- read/write speeds of 3,500/2,500 MB/s

I still think people are freaking out over a on paper speed difference that will end up being a lower bandwidth in real-world usage. There's two things we don't know.
You are exactly describing the latency problem. The only time you will get close to the theoretical peak bandwidth on a PC is when you read one huge piece of code. If you read 1000's of files the latency becomes dominant. This is precisely Cerny's point and what he tried to address in the I/O design of the PS5.

You are of course right that MS might have something similar but so far every piece of information we see indicates the opposite (please note that this does not mean the XSX does not have a very competent SSD - it would only mean that it does not reach the ridiculously low latency numbers required to pull off what the PS5 seemingly did during the Unreal 5 demo).
 
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oldergamer

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You are exactly describing the latency problem. The only time you will get close to the theoretical peak bandwidth on a PC is when you read one huge piece of code. If you read 1000's of files the latency becomes dominant. This is precisely Cerny's point and what he tried to address in the I/O design of the PS5.

You are of course right that MS might have something similar but so far every piece of information we see indicates the opposite (please note that this does not mean the XSX does not have a very competent SSD - it would only mean that it does not reach the ridiculously low latency numbers required to pull off what the PS5 seemingly did during the Unreal 5 demo).
Which information indicates the opposite?
 

Elog

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Which information indicates the opposite?
1) Focus in marketing and technology discussions from MS - latency is not pushed at all
2) Loading time demo by MS on the XsX - that demo almost seals that XSX has 'normal' latency values
3) EPIC commentary around the Unreal 5 demo which fairly clearly implies that what was shown was only possible on a PS5 right now

As I wrote - this indicates that MS does not have the same low latency as the PS5. We'll see what the reality is in the end.
 

Panajev2001a

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1) Focus in marketing and technology discussions from MS - latency is not pushed at all
2) Loading time demo by MS on the XsX - that demo almost seals that XSX has 'normal' latency values
3) EPIC commentary around the Unreal 5 demo which fairly clearly implies that what was shown was only possible on a PS5 right now

As I wrote - this indicates that MS does not have the same low latency as the PS5. We'll see what the reality is in the end.
Given the amount of HW they have thrown at the problem on the SoC directly completely for I/O purposes I would strongly hope they have a nice latency advantage else they lost a lot of performance improvements on the CPU and GPU and handicapped the large investment in the custom flash solution.
 
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SquireDalbridge

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Boy OOOH Boy every one is talking Nonsense on this Forum nowadays Its always Unreal Engine 5 this or That.
Epic surely pimped a Demo to all you Non Beleievers and made you instead of Believers Heritics.
Let me give you some clear and Factual info First this Demo does not represent what ps5 can do.
Remember Lair trailer ps3 remeber Deep Down trailer Ingame engine Demo Developing kit they called. This time Epic is pimping the same Sh@t.Sure the ps5 has so called a faster SSD to stram the Nanites but this ingame Engine quality will not be achieved first of all the PS5 GPU will not handle it. I am not talking about a so called Developing Kit demo Epic showed.These Nanintes can only be Used on Static Worlds so No Vegatative
green Worlds if so they will be rendered apartly.So will the Nanites and Lumen be used,Yes only on pure Static worlds with no animation on them.In the whole demo you see some little particle effects which even look
strange in the demo which look like Polygon basic compared to Nanites. So stop this TV evangelism because PS5 will have more ingame Engine demo's from a Developing kit. Which will be Fake. And take this UE5 demo as something the PS5 can do with less triangles and lower resolution but the world will be static and the dynamic will be rendered not in Nanites.
 
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Honey Bunny

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Boy OOOH Boy every one is talking Nonsense on this Forum nowadays Its always Unreal Engine 5 this or That.
Epic surely pimped a Demo to all you Non Beleievers and made you instead of Believers Heritics.
Let me give you some clear and Factual info First this Demo does not represent what ps5 can do.
Remember Lair trailer ps3 remeber Deep Down trailer Ingame engine Demo Developing kit they called. This time Epic is pimping the same Sh@t.Sure the ps5 has so called a faster SSD to stram the Nanites but this ingame Engine quality will not be achieved first of all the PS5 GPU will not handle it. I am not talking about a so called Developing Kit demo Epic showed.These Nanintes can only be Used on Static Worlds so No Vegatative
green Worlds if so they will be rendered apartly.So will the Nanites and Lumen be used,Yes only on pure Static worlds with no animation on them.In the whole demo you see some little particle effects which even look
strange in the demo which look like Polygon basic compared to Nanites. So stop this TV evangelism because PS5 will have more ingame Engine demo's from a Developing kit. Which will be Fake. And take this UE5 demo as something the PS5 can do with less triangles and lower resolution but the world will be static and the dynamic will be rendered not in Nanites.
Thank you brother. Finally, someone talking some sense.
 
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Remij

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PC inside PC? PCception! ;P The thing is, gaming PCs already have twice as much memory as next-gen consoles (24-27GB), and with upcoming AMD and NV GPUs and DDR5 next year the total amount of memory in PCs will triple-quadruple, so they won't need to rely so heavily on streaming, if at all. Lets say we have 40GB worth of assets, and only 13GB to store them vs 24 vs 32 vs 48, and so on.
Exactly. On PC devs could store enough into RAM initially to contain the next 2-3 seconds of gameplay..instead of the 1 second on PS5, meaning the SSD would have more time to continually stream new data into RAM and VRAM.

And that's besides the fact that games will be designed much smarter and be far more optimized than what this demo is. You're not going to have 400GB games with ridiculous 8K textures for everything and billions of unique poly models everywhere. Not to mention that there's limits to what Nanite can do currently...
 
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