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Unseen 64: Nintendo's Project H.A.M.M.E.R: The Untold Story

whipihguh

Banned
LiamR? Isn't that a gaffer?
I believe LiamR came to his defense and a lot of members gave him shit.

I'm not entirely surprised this game's development was such a mess, the game didn't look that great to begin with, but I definitely didn't expect to be as messy as it was. I wonder what Wii Crush looked like.
 

Pandy

Member
Sounds, and at time looks, like Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance...

...except shit.

I can totally see why the Japanese execs clamped down on the project, and I can see why trying to drag the project up to code would have caused problems within NST. It seems a lost cause that wasn't cancelled early enough, or given the right resources (i.e. Platinum) to save itself from oblivion.

A real shame, but I don't feel anything of value was lost. Except 1080º Snowboarding Wii, etc., obviously.
 
I had zero clue there was so much recent drama between Unseen64 and NeoGAF.

Not sure why reporting on tensions between how NCL and NST approached game design or mismanagement is being xenophobic. Even in far less dramatic game development stories the contrast to east and western approaches is usually pointed out, like how hands-on Nintendo had to get with Retro when they were starting out with Prime and rehaul stuff.

Stuff that went down between SEGA of America and SEGA of Japan during the 90's and early 2000's would probably blow some minds in comparison to this Project H.A.M.M.E.R. story.
 

Simbabbad

Member
You can't imagine racism in upper management of a large corporation? Are you kidding, or willfully ignorant?
Indeed.

Some people should read "Fear and Trembling" by Amélie Nothomb, where she tells her time spent in a big Japanese corporation. It is quite telling of the mentality of some Japanese executives, she explains very well how it ties with parts of Japanese history.

This story shouldn't become "OMG Nintendo is racist", but certainly not "OMG the reporter is racist" either.
 

digdug2k

Member
The difference here - assuming you trust both this account and the account of Miyamoto's role with Retro - is that Miyamoto shat all over them for the sake of pulling the studio into shape and developing a masterpiece. This sounds more like a massive cultural clash where the Japanese team shat all over them just because.
Its pretty hard to say without details/access to the game to be honest. I mean, this article doesn't even actually quote anyone, let alone multiple people from NST. Its just a bunch of generalities.
 

kewlbot

Member
god that got depressing quick
working on a game so long and watch it go completely no where even after overhauling the assets and visuals
so much work put into something and it just turned out bad
 
This story shouldn't become "OMG Nintendo is racist", but certainly not "OMG the reporter is racist" either.
For me I got the impression more it was a huge clash of very different corporate cultures that happened during a time where Nintendo was starting to move away from experimenting with publishing more western games, like with Geist. Perfect tinderbox for some drama to erupt regardless of upper-management's motivations, though I can see why it lead to some self-reflection on how NoA/NoJ operate on race issues.
 
The issue with these stories (I did a load of research on Square Enix / GRIN's Fortress along similar lines but ultimately dropped it) is almost always that the people willing to talk are on the cancelled side; IE in the SE/GRIN FF12 spin-off case the GRIN people were willing to talk - and their narrative was always that they had the makings of a great game, and similarly that cultural differences shot it down. That's all well and good, and might well be true, but it's one side of the story; and the other side is often unwilling or unable to talk because they're still employed at or engaged in work with the company that decided to cancel.

Ex-employees are always likely to spin the same line, basically; we had great ideas, it would've been great, management killed it... but there's two sides to every story, obviously. It's not xenophobic on the part of the person piecing it together, it's more to do with them struggling to put together a fuller picture - there's a language barrier to talk to the people who were on the other end of the culture clash, and Nintendo is notoriously private when it comes to their in-house dealings anyway.

I always think stories like this are fascinating but I often think you just need longer; you need time for the dust to settle and for people to no longer be worried about losing their job or whatever for speaking up about the publisher side of the story. It's like, we've only really truly started to learn about some of the ins-and-outs of, say the PS1 era, recently.. and that's because finally all sides of those dramas are willing to talk.
 
All of the sources who worked on Project H.A.M.M.E.R. seem willing to admit the game was really generic, they had zero ideas to make it any better and was never going to be anything special though.
 

Revven

Member
I believe LiamR came to his defense and a lot of members gave him shit.

My understanding was that LiamR is the same person as the Dr_Cupcake twitter or whatever. It's the same person who spoke about the NX yesterday. He has refused to post on GAF since those people ganged up on him for the E3 leaks.
 

whipihguh

Banned
My understanding was that LiamR is the same person as the Dr_Cupcake twitter or whatever. It's the same person who spoke about the NX yesterday. He has refused to post on GAF since those people ganged up on him for the E3 leaks.

Ah, alrighty, if they are one and the same I didn't realize. I suppose that would explain why everyone was ganging up on him in that thread a month ago. With him being banned, I guess he doesn't really have much of a choice in posting anyways. In any case, I respect the work he's done here uncovering the situation behind H.A.M.M.E.R. Hope he gives us those NX deets he has at some point.
 

Kriken

Member
The whole situation sounds really awful, didn't care for the game but the meddling from NCL sounds super shitty
 

Regulus Tera

Romanes Eunt Domus
Sounds like a Disaster. What a Day of Crisis.


No, but seriously, the game always looked pretty bad. Not sure if Wii Crush had more appeal or not, but they should have listened when the complaints about the core gameplay started appearing.
 
Jesus.

One of the most xenophobic stories I've ever heard.

"It's all the evil Japanese people's fault!"

Nothing in the OP is inconsistent with what I've heard about working at say..Samsung as a westerner. Japan is far more homogenous than most U.S. states and European nations, never mind the U.S. or Europe as a whole.

Is it really that much of a stretch for bigots to exist across nationalities?
 

Lynd7

Member
It's sad NST is not allowed to do anything interesting or higher budget anymore. Nintendo should allow the Western devs a longer leash when making titles.
 

zoltek

Neo Member
Played this at E3. It was, unfortunately, as bland as they come, bolstered only by the fact that it was using Nintendo's fancy new controls.

It's unfortunate that things went down like they did, but from a gameplay standpoint, we didn't miss much.
 

Mpl90

Two copies sold? That's not a bomb guys, stop trolling!!!
Ha. Too funny.

Interesting video that gets some things right, and quite a few other things wrong. Good attempt though. Fun to re-see all the old footage.

Mmh.
For those wondering, IIRC this guy actualy works at NST.
 

Terrell

Member
You can't imagine racism in upper management of a large corporation? Are you kidding, or willfully ignorant?

I can't imagine it against caucasian people in a North American workplace, nor can I imagine that it wasn't dealt with in severe terms when brought to light via a review of the studio, no. And it's not so much racism at that point as much as it is xenophobia and/or imperialism.

A huge portion of Nintendo's business involves their Japanese teams and executives dealing with American employees and businesses on the regular, so any remote chance that something like this gets into the public eye isn't something corporate management would ever want without at least some indication that the problem was dealt with and reprimands or firings were passed down; the damage it does to their brand is irreparable.
 

efyu_lemonardo

May I have a cookie?
so is there a reason I can't get the video to play?

is it blocked in certain regions or something, or just being swamped by visitors?
 
Great work. This is a great indication from two big fuck ups from Iwata's management: downgrade of NoA and it's entire western gaming division and their excessive casual/family appealing direction, the reasons for why Project HAMMER was canned. Such a shame, really, it had potential to diversify Nintendo's audience.
 

SCReuter

Member
Wii Crush's cartoony environments looked like a step in the right direction. It's much more appealing to me than Project Hammer's art style, at least.
 

Neoxon

Junior Member
Honestly, I wish Nintendo would get Platinum Games to revive the project. I feel like something like this would flourish under their direction.
 

efyu_lemonardo

May I have a cookie?
Was finally able to watch it after multiple failed attempts. A very loaded story, it's difficult to condense 5 years into 11 minutes without losing some no doubt critical information about the project.

Speaking as a consumer, I will say one thing: I've always wanted an action game for Wii focusing on the use of unique weapons inspired by the capabilities of the wiimote, and Project H.A.M.M.E.R might have been able to fill this niche if multiple unique tools other than the hammer were incorporated into the design at an earlier stage. Giving the player the option to switch between different weapons at will, and upgrade those weapons' capabilities as they went along (similar to how it's done in some top down scrolling shooters) may have also gone a long way towards making the gameplay that much more interesting.

I remember playing Wii Sports Tennis challenges (especially the one where you have to hit tiles on a wall) and thinking "this could make for an interesting weapon for a scrolling shooter type game". Another time such a thought occurred to me was with Skyward Sword's whip, though that would have required motion plus.

It seems like there was quite a gap at Nintendo between the different approaches to software during the years of the Wii's conception and unveiling. Games like this and Disaster Day of Crisis, or n-space's games (If I remember correctly one was called Winter, and there was also another about ancient civilizations whose name I forget) taking on a more realistic aesthetic, vs. the more cartoony one that ultimately won out.

As a general guiding philosophy cartoon visuals probably made more sense, as relying too much on a realistic look could have lead players to expect a certain degree of accuracy which the controls would not have been able to deliver (not until motion plus at least). But that's not to say every game needed to have the exact same visual style using Miis, which is something I believe in hindsight made it more difficult for certain experiences to stand out, and even cheapened them in the eyes of many a consumer.

Funny thing is, had Wii U taken Wii's approach to motion controls and simply built on it, starting with the wiimote plus as the baseline method of input, and having much more CPU power available to interpret more complex motions, I think consumers would have been ready to accept deeper mechanics, and richer graphics could have done a lot to enhance this feeling of a "motion controls 2.0" experience. Games like Zelda Skyward Sword and Red Steel 2 could have been the start of an evolution based on more mature technology which Wii U could have continued. It might have even helped prove once and for all to certain people that this was more than just a gimmick.

Hopefully Nintendo is willing to give some of these ideas a second chance with NX.

Honestly, I wish Nintendo would get Platinum Games to revive the project. I feel like something like this would flourish under their direction.

Bingo. The cutting mechanic in MGS: Rising is something that could have been great fun on Wii U with a wiimote plus. It's essentially just a more sophisticated version of the cutting in Wii Sports Resort and Zelda Skyward Sword (and Zangeki no Reginleiv, for those who played it). It's the kind of thing that works well in an action game setting.
 

CO_Andy

Member
Honestly, I wish Nintendo would get Platinum Games to revive the project. I feel like something like this would flourish under their direction.
Nah. Platinum beat em ups generally don't sell they've got a big brand attached to it.
 

Neoxon

Junior Member
Nah. Platinum beat em ups generally don't sell they've got a big brand attached to it.
But they're the best in the business that aren't tied down to a particular company (see Itsuno with Capcom, who is probably gonna make DMC5 at some point). Plus there's the fact that Nintendo & Platinum are buddy-buddy now. All they need to do is market it like they did for Splatoon, & it'd be at worst a nice feather in Nintendo's mature audience cap.

Which reminds me, what's the Metal Gear Rising team up to lately? I know the Bayonetta 2 team is helping with Star Fox Zero, the team responsible for The Wonderful 101 are on ScaleBound, & I think the Korra team is doing that Transformers game. I could be wrong about these, so if someone could correct me, that'd be appreciated.
 

@MUWANdo

Banned
Which reminds me, what's the Metal Gear Rising team up to lately? I know the Bayonetta 2 team is helping with Star Fox Zero, the team responsible for The Wonderful 101 are on ScaleBound, & I think the Korra team is doing that Transformers game. I could be wrong about these, so if someone could correct me, that'd be appreciated.

MGR director Saito is directing the Transformers game.
 

Toxi

Banned
Ha. Too funny.

Interesting video that gets some things right, and quite a few other things wrong. Good attempt though. Fun to re-see all the old footage.
...Huh, so you worked at Nintendo during that time?

Are you allowed to state any of what is incorrect/correct, or would that fall under a NDA?
 

daxgame

Member
I feel like between all the "big" games who get cancelled there's often this kind of issue where no matter how much "revisions" are tried, the game doesn't come out decent and it gets cancelled (wasting tons of money in the meanwhile).
Of course,in this case it is specifically also involving a japanese managment and an american dev team.

edit: oh, just seen that employee's post. Well, I guess I'll take this story even more with a grain of salt
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
The CGI looked solid, but that was outsourced. The game itself looked devoid of any fun and the Wii Crush assets looked just awful. Incredibly wasteful too, since they would have thrown out the only decent part (CGI) to salvage the worst part (gameplay mechanics). Hot mess all around, probably had less to do with bad Japanese management and more a team stubbornly stuck in trying to execute a weak idea they had come to love.
 

Shiggy

Member
Ha. Too funny.

Interesting video that gets some things right, and quite a few other things wrong. Good attempt though. Fun to re-see all the old footage.

...Huh, so you worked at Nintendo during that time?

Are you allowed to state any of what is incorrect/correct, or would that fall under a NDA?

He's the game director of Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Tipping Stars, the latest NST project, so he probably can't.
 

CamHostage

Member
For me I got the impression more it was a huge clash of very different corporate cultures that happened during a time where Nintendo was starting to move away from experimenting with publishing more western games, like with Geist. Perfect tinderbox for some drama to erupt regardless of upper-management's motivations, though I can see why it lead to some self-reflection on how NoA/NoJ operate on race issues.

Also, it was the portion of the company that's had to make these decisions many, many, many times before (and also the portion that was responsible for all that money coming and going, and also the team in on the worldview conversations of what the entire slate means to the company and how each piece fits) versus the small and passionate band at NST that had done a few games under varying circumstances but (as far as I can tell) had not been in that position of a doomed project, particularly of that magnitude.

Feelings will get hurt, and decisions will be made that are completely illogical of those in the thick of it (or even years later, those who still bear the scars.) It will get to the point that those on the losing side of the battle will have to rationalize the story based on what they know because they can never fully comprehend the events without the missing pieces.

The writer should have been careful to round the edges off the story to avoid the subtext of xenophobia that people dug out of the piece (whether it's there or not,) but to my mind, that's an incorrect (or at least unkind) reading of the situation.

The issue with these stories (I did a load of research on Square Enix / GRIN's Fortress along similar lines but ultimately dropped it) is almost always that the people willing to talk are on the cancelled side; IE in the SE/GRIN FF12 spin-off case the GRIN people were willing to talk - and their narrative was always that they had the makings of a great game, and similarly that cultural differences shot it down. That's all well and good, and might well be true, but it's one side of the story; and the other side is often unwilling or unable to talk because they're still employed at or engaged in work with the company that decided to cancel.

Yes, as a reporter, you have to be very careful of the story you are not telling in your story.
 

Tripon

Member
Seems that the guy who made the video is actively looking at this thread and is attacking the one person who was there from NST.

I was neutral before, but its sad to see a supposedly unbiased narrator decides that his narrative is more important than the truth, whatever it may be.

LiamR, if you are reading this, and it seems that you, you have lost the plot and I hope you understand why people are critizing you. Trying to make enemies of people because you have a thin skin just shows that you need some growing up to do.

If you are claiming some sort of insider access and information and an actual person with verified status is claiming you got some things wrong, you don't get to attack him or her integrity unless you can verify why he or she is wrong.

Anyway, as to the video itself, it is intriguing, but to due the stuff I said before, I can't take it too seriously. Wish I could, but eh.
 

Mpl90

Two copies sold? That's not a bomb guys, stop trolling!!!
Seems that the guy who made the video is actively looking at this thread and is attacking the one person who was there from NST.

I was neutral before, but its sad to see a supposedly unbiased narrator decides that his narrative is more important than the truth, whatever it may be.

LiamR, if you are reading this, and it seems that you, you have lost the plot and I hope you understand why people are critizing you. Trying to make enemies of people because you have a thin skin just shows that you need some growing up to do.

If you are claiming some sort of insider access and information and an actual person with verified status is claiming you got some things wrong, you don't get to attack him or her integrity unless you can verify why he or she is wrong.

Anyway, as to the video itself, it is intriguing, but to due the stuff I said before, I can't take it too seriously. Wish I could, but eh.

...Just saw his Twitter account, and

I saw that. We can hardly trust the word of someone who we now know lies, works there but was not apart of HAMMER in any way.

By using his post when he said his game (Mario v.s. DK: Tripping Stars) looked neat back in January.
...Sorry, but LiamR, what's with the ego-trip currently?
 

PtM

Banned
Seems that the guy who made the video is actively looking at this thread and is attacking the one person who was there from NST.

I was neutral before, but its sad to see a supposedly unbiased narrator decides that his narrative is more important than the truth, whatever it may be.

LiamR, if you are reading this, and it seems that you, you have lost the plot and I hope you understand why people are critizing you. Trying to make enemies of people because you have a thin skin just shows that you need some growing up to do.

If you are claiming some sort of insider access and information and an actual person with verified status is claiming you got some things wrong, you don't get to attack him or her integrity unless you can verify why he or she is wrong.

Anyway, as to the video itself, it is intriguing, but to due the stuff I said before, I can't take it too seriously. Wish I could, but eh.
Liam claims multiple sources told him the same stories, so of course he'll defend it. Doesn't justify the way he handles it.
I hope this fuck-up won't have greater consequences for you.
 

L Thammy

Member
This whole story sounds a bit like the Eternal Darkness or Metroid Prime situations. You have a studio with a project that just doesn't seem to be working out - going by those in the thread who Hammer and noted that it wasn't fun. Then Nintendo begins meddling in an attempt to fix the problem. With Retro, the game was fixed, and the studio seemed to take it in stride and grew to be able to create consistent hits. With Silicon Knights, the game was finished, but Dyack felt that Nintendo was impressive, so he broke ties and the company ran itself into the ground. I would tend to presume that Nintendo's motivation is the same as those situations without any more specific evidence of how xenophobia is involved. Still, it must be stressful for the people in the studio, and it's too bad that it didn't seem to get the results here as it did in the other cases.

As an aside, LiamR's done great work with Unseen 64, and even this article is really interesting. It's sad that he's been acting kind of childish lately. Especially since he seems to have posted an image based off white supremacist cartoons.
 

PtM

Banned
With Silicon Knights, the game was finished, but Dyack felt that Nintendo was oppressive, so he broke ties and the company ran itself into the ground.
ftfy?
Especially since he seems to have posted an image based off white supremacist cartoons.
To me that looked like an honest mistake. A mistake you shouldn't ever do, but here we are.
 

Oppo

Member
Honestly, I wish Nintendo would get Platinum Games to revive the project. I feel like something like this would flourish under their direction.

don't worry– Sony will announce the kickstarter for a Project HAMMER Reborn next E3. cross buy with Vita.
 
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