Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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catabarez

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I need an XRGB mini!!! Might get one next year or 2018! I need an all in one solution for just 1 capture card!

I want to use component for both PS2 and Xbox on the XRGB mini, would this adapter be required to use those connections?

Yes
 

Mr.Fusion

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My Trinitron does have S video, would the HD Retrovision component cables be that much better/worth the extra cost? What about s video for a Genesis? (US consoles and TV by the way.)
 

Peltz

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My Trinitron does have S video, would the HD Retrovision component cables be that much better/worth the extra cost? What about s video for a Genesis? (US consoles and TV by the way.)
I believe Genesis requires a mod to output s-video.
 

PumpkinSpice

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Component is better than s-video, but if you're not super picky I don't think it's worth that much more. You can get good s-video SNES cables (without a composite jack on the same cable, or preferably used OEM one from Japan) for around $10, which looks very clean with only some minor color inaccuracies. It can also be reused on an N64 or GC without any mods.

The HD Retrovision cables are $44 + are not going to be in stock any time soon.

For Genesis, there's no built-in s-video. You can mod in s-video with a not super complicated mod, but I don't really recommend it... depending on your model it can have some bad rainbow banding and you'll have to make some holes in the case.

If you want to do component on multiple systems on a CRT, the usual recommendation is to buy an external transcoder and buy RGB cables.
 
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This Shinybow SB-3715 is legit! If anybody is considering outputting to multiple sources, this is the device to get.

With this, I can play on my PVM and record via my capture device at the same time; it's exactly what I was looking for.

Very tempted to grab a second PVM to have a permanent TATE setup...

If you want to do component on multiple systems on a CRT, the usual recommendation is to buy an external transcoder and buy RGB cables.
This thing works great, before I went full PVM, this do-dad was perfect.
 

Mr.Fusion

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Thanks for the replies! I think I'm just going to go with s-video for the SNES for now. Of course I'm going to have to buy a new SNES first, since my old one has something wrong with it. It's pretty funny, it has weird graphical glitches like the goals not appearing in NBA Jam and the logs you're supposed to ride on in Aladdin in the cave level move at a super fast rate, lol.
 

Mega

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I think the best option for someone wanting to go retro casually and on a tight budget is a Wii with VC purchases, Nintendont, USB Loader GX, retro emulators, etc. A Wii Component cable is cheap and gives RGB-level quality, works with more CRTs than RGB consoles with pricey Scart cables, 240p support, imperceptible input lag.

If I was forced to have a very lean setup for some reason, one console and one display, it would probably be the Wii with my 17" HD CRT.
 

Peltz

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I think the best option for someone wanting to go retro casually and on a tight budget is a Wii with VC purchases, Nintendont, USB Loader GX, retro emulators, etc. A Wii Component cable is cheap and gives RGB-level quality, works with more CRTs than RGB consoles with pricey Scart cables, 240p support, imperceptible input lag.

If I was forced to have a very lean setup for some reason, one console and one display, it would probably be the Wii with my 17" HD CRT.
Absolutely.
 

Timu

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I think the best option for someone wanting to go retro casually and on a tight budget is a Wii with VC purchases, Nintendont, USB Loader GX, retro emulators, etc. A Wii Component cable is cheap and gives RGB-level quality, works with more CRTs than RGB consoles with pricey Scart cables, 240p support, imperceptible input lag.

If I was forced to have a very lean setup for some reason, one console and one display, it would probably be the Wii with my 17" HD CRT.
Only reason to own a Wii now IMO.
 

Kiddy Dong

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I think the best option for someone wanting to go retro casually and on a tight budget is a Wii with VC purchases, Nintendont, USB Loader GX, retro emulators, etc. A Wii Component cable is cheap and gives RGB-level quality, works with more CRTs than RGB consoles with pricey Scart cables, 240p support, imperceptible input lag.

If I was forced to have a very lean setup for some reason, one console and one display, it would probably be the Wii with my 17" HD CRT.
This is precisely my setup. I don't collect handhelds or consoles older than gen 5, so the Wii is a wonderful resource for playing those. GBA games in 240p on a big ass Trinitron is amazing.

If anyone is interested in going down this route, keep in mind that many of the homebrew apps like Nintendont are still under very active development. There are also new developments like mGBA which have rendered older emulators like VBAGX completely obsolete. Always get the latest nightly builds.
 

InfiniteCombo

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I think the best option for someone wanting to go retro casually and on a tight budget is a Wii with VC purchases, Nintendont, USB Loader GX, retro emulators, etc. A Wii Component cable is cheap and gives RGB-level quality, works with more CRTs than RGB consoles with pricey Scart cables, 240p support, imperceptible input lag.

If I was forced to have a very lean setup for some reason, one console and one display, it would probably be the Wii with my 17" HD CRT.
No lies detected.

Only drawback of this method is that if you really want to play games outside of VC, you're out of luck. I really wanted to play Turtles in Time and Sunset Riders, so I bought an OG SNES.

Just posted a PS1 recommendation thread if you guys are interested

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1259115
Congrats on your Framemeister, dude!
 

InfiniteCombo

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Speaking of Framemeisters... I absolutely love mine. One of the best gaming purchases I have ever made. Probably top 3.

My only (minor) complaints with it are:

(1) No VGA input. Man, Dreamcast stuff looks absolutely gorgeous with VGA. I still have some 2D fighting games -- including Super Turbo, since the Dreamcast is the closest to the Arcade version -- and would like to add scanlines for those. However, there is no easy way to do this.

(2) No component (green, yellow, blue cables) input; instead, YPbPr is represented by D-terminal, a Japanese standard. I ordered a Sony-branded D-terminal cable for my Japanese PS2, since most of my 2D fighting games are for that console; I will see how it looks. But this is all relatively inconvenient, and would be awesome if there was support for component.

(3) RGB is the Japanese standard, and not the euro SCART standard. Now, there's a converter cable provided with the Framemeister. I have a SCART cable for my Genesis, but I'm afraid to plug it in to the converter and into the Framemeister, as I'm not sure what will happen.

Maybe I'm just a giant noob, and there are ways to get around these (minor) shortcomings. I just don't know...
 

Grief.exe

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(3) RGB is the Japanese standard, and not the euro SCART standard. Now, there's a converter cable provided with the Framemeister. I have a SCART cable for my Genesis, but I'm afraid to plug it in to the converter and into the Framemeister, as I'm not sure what will happen.
Full stop.

Throw that cable in the trash, you need a EURO scart to 8 Pin framemeister converter. The cable that comes with the Framemeister is JP21, which can short out your Framemeister if used with a SCART cable.
 

InfiniteCombo

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Full stop.

Throw that cable in the trash, you need a EURO scart to 8 Pin framemeister converter. The cable that comes with the Framemeister is JP21, which can short out your Framemeister if used with a SCART cable.
Oh shit... thanks for the heads up.

Now that I really think about it, I think I did once try to hook up the Genesis SCART to the included converter to the Framemeister. I got freakin' lucky since nothing happened to the device. But that was once, and never again.

Can I eBay this Euro SCART to 8 pin converter, without breaking my bank?

Thanks for the feedback, and sorry if that info is already somewhere in the thread; maybe I should just go read Fudoh's website for this SCART with Framemeister business.

So far, I've only hooked up my consoles to the Framemeister with S-video, and enabled scanlines. Giant improvement over composite.
 

Mega

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No lies detected.

Only drawback of this method is that if you really want to play games outside of VC, you're out of luck. I really wanted to play Turtles in Time and Sunset Riders, so I bought an OG SNES.
Hm? You can play those with the SNES9X core in Retroarch or standalone SNES9XGX, both in the Homebrew Channel.
 

dancrane212

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Is there a reasonable path to getting a VGA/DVI/HDMI from a modern computer onto a PVM via a component signal? With AM2R released and it being at rendered at 240p I figured there it would be fantastic to get it on my PVM.

*Ehh, not looking like there is a simple solution out there. Guess I'll run it as-is on my usual setup.
 

Grief.exe

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Oh shit... thanks for the heads up.

Now that I really think about it, I think I did once try to hook up the Genesis SCART to the included converter to the Framemeister. I got freakin' lucky since nothing happened to the device. But that was once, and never again.

Can I eBay this Euro SCART to 8 pin converter, without breaking my bank?

Thanks for the feedback, and sorry if that info is already somewhere in the thread; maybe I should just go read Fudoh's website for this SCART with Framemeister business.

So far, I've only hooked up my consoles to the Framemeister with S-video, and enabled scanlines. Giant improvement over composite.
I just ordered mine the other day from Retro Console Accessories on ebay. It looks like she is completely out of stock on ebay currently, but she seems to refill frequently.

 

Chacranajxy

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I just ordered mine the other day from Retro Console Accessories on ebay. It looks like she is completely out of stock on ebay currently, but she seems to refill frequently.
As I understand it, she relists all items at 6am each weekday, and there are 10 available. They're restocked every day.
 

Mega

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Here are some Photoshop scaled and cropped screenshots of Wii U's vWii.

The 480p Kirby image was upscaled to 1080p to match the 1080p output image. Melee and Sparkster images were upscaled to 1440p. All photos were 1:1 cropped roughly the same for easy up-close comparisons. Some observations:

All image interpolation was done with Nearest Neighbor resizing. This mode keep the blown up images' picture quality near identical to the original sizes, whereas all the other options smoothed and blurred the image.

480p screenshots have proportions that don't match the others. They also have added blur not present in 720 and 1080p. I think Photoshop does a much better job at blowing up 480p than my plasma's miserable handling of that resolution, so in practice 480p gaming looks even worse than these screenshots.

720p and 1080p look near identical, but in practice my plasma seems to do a better job of presenting 720p and it edges out the latter.

The single Android image capture of Sparkster has a little bit of pixel distortion as a result of feeding the output through the USBHDCAP3, no idea why, but this isn't present during regular HDMI Out. Regardless the Android image shows how all resolution modes in vWii are lacking.


vWii 480p vs 1080p



vWii 480p vs 720p vs 1080p



vWii 480p vs 720p vs 1080p vs Android 1080p HDMI Out
 

Shin Johnpv

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Speaking of Framemeisters... I absolutely love mine. One of the best gaming purchases I have ever made. Probably top 3.

My only (minor) complaints with it are:

(1) No VGA input. Man, Dreamcast stuff looks absolutely gorgeous with VGA. I still have some 2D fighting games -- including Super Turbo, since the Dreamcast is the closest to the Arcade version -- and would like to add scanlines for those. However, there is no easy way to do this.

(2) No component (green, yellow, blue cables) input; instead, YPbPr is represented by D-terminal, a Japanese standard. I ordered a Sony-branded D-terminal cable for my Japanese PS2, since most of my 2D fighting games are for that console; I will see how it looks. But this is all relatively inconvenient, and would be awesome if there was support for component.

(3) RGB is the Japanese standard, and not the euro SCART standard. Now, there's a converter cable provided with the Framemeister. I have a SCART cable for my Genesis, but I'm afraid to plug it in to the converter and into the Framemeister, as I'm not sure what will happen.

Maybe I'm just a giant noob, and there are ways to get around these (minor) shortcomings. I just don't know...

1. Get a Toro, 480p scart out of the Dreamcast. google dreamcast toro box.

2. Just buy a Component to D-Terminal adapter, solaris Japan sells them, you could have bought a framemeister with one.

3. RGB is way of sending a color signal to a tv, that's not a Japanese/Euro standard. JP21 is a Japanese standard, and SCART is a European standard. As has already been said buy a scart to Framemeister adapter and get rid of the JP21 one.
 
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Are PS1 JP21 cables rare for some reason? I have the framemeister already for NES/SNES/N64 and figured I'd diversify to bring my PSX/Saturn into the fold. Is this going to be a ludicrously expensive endeavor?
 

Chacranajxy

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Are PS1 JP21 cables rare for some reason? I have the framemeister already for NES/SNES/N64 and figured I'd diversify to bring my PSX/Saturn into the fold. Is this going to be a ludicrously expensive endeavor?
First party JP21 cables are tough to find, generally... if that's what you mean. They're readily available from retro_console_accessories, though.
 

PumpkinSpice

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What is the Toro doing differently that gives it better picture? Like DC outputs R,G,B,HS,VS natively. What else does the Toro do?

I bought a $10 DC VGA cable earlier this year and the picture looked really bad... like so bad that I assumed my DC had busted output and didn't want to try a more expensive kit. Large portions of the screen were the wrong color, like you might see on a CRT monitor that someone had taken a huge magnet to.
 

Peagles

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What is the Toro doing differently that gives it better picture? Like DC outputs R,G,B,HS,VS natively. What else does the Toro do?

I bought a $10 DC VGA cable earlier this year and the picture looked really bad... like so bad that I assumed my DC had busted output and didn't want to try a more expensive kit. Large portions of the screen were the wrong color, like you might see on a CRT monitor that someone had taken a huge magnet to.
The Toro basically doubles as a VGA box and RGB SCART out. It allows you run the DC in 480p into the Framemeister via SCART, which you can then use to upscale nicely.
 

theclaw135

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Are PS1 JP21 cables rare for some reason? I have the framemeister already for NES/SNES/N64 and figured I'd diversify to bring my PSX/Saturn into the fold. Is this going to be a ludicrously expensive endeavor?
They may have only been available during the PS1 era. I'm not aware the JP21 cables were re-released for PS2 or PS3.

For major consoles just the Super Famicom, Saturn, Neo Geo family, and PS family have first party JP21 cables. Of course several more like Mega Drive or Dreamcast are RGB capable.
 
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Is there a reasonable path to getting a VGA/DVI/HDMI from a modern computer onto a PVM via a component signal? With AM2R released and it being at rendered at 240p I figured there it would be fantastic to get it on my PVM.

*Ehh, not looking like there is a simple solution out there. Guess I'll run it as-is on my usual setup.
I got an Extron Super Emotia II to try and facilitate this. After building a power supply for it and playing around with it for a while, it seems to be the best option. I've not gotten mine to be perfect yet, there's issues with the color and brightness that will require modifications to the hardware, but it's the closest to a "plug and play" solution that exists.

So if you find one, consider it. I'd be willing to part with mine if anybody's interested, as I was mainly expecting to use it for Dreamcast and Xbox 360 but now have better options for both.
 

Shin Johnpv

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Does Kenzei do this as well?
Yes but the Kenzei requires you to have a solid VGA box or cable already. Plus I BELIEVE the Toro can force 480P mode on almost all games.

What is the Toro doing differently that gives it better picture? Like DC outputs R,G,B,HS,VS natively. What else does the Toro do?

I bought a $10 DC VGA cable earlier this year and the picture looked really bad... like so bad that I assumed my DC had busted output and didn't want to try a more expensive kit. Large portions of the screen were the wrong color, like you might see on a CRT monitor that someone had taken a huge magnet to.
The Dreamcast will only output 480p over its VGA line, so hooking up to the regular RGB line on it will only give you 480i. Like I said above I believe the toro can also force 480p in some games.

If VGA out of your dreamcast looked bad I would say it was most likely a bad cable.
 

InfiniteCombo

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1. Get a Toro, 480p scart out of the Dreamcast. google dreamcast toro box.

2. Just buy a Component to D-Terminal adapter, solaris Japan sells them, you could have bought a framemeister with one.

3. RGB is way of sending a color signal to a tv, that's not a Japanese/Euro standard. JP21 is a Japanese standard, and SCART is a European standard. As has already been said buy a scart to Framemeister adapter and get rid of the JP21 one.
Thanks for the suggestions. Will look into them and come back to this forum with any further questions. Very, very helpful peeps in here.

And yea, I meant to say that the JP21 (the "round" one) is obviously the Japanese one, and SCART (the "long rectangular" one) is the European standard. But thanks for forcing me to be more detailed; out of all GAF threads, this is probably the one where I have to be most careful with terminology, and make sure I'm being as accurate as possible about the shit I say.
 

Peagles

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Thanks for the suggestions. Will look into them and come back to this forum with any further questions. Very, very helpful peeps in here.

And yea, I meant to say that the JP21 (the "round" one) is obviously the Japanese one, and SCART (the "long rectangular" one) is the European standard. But thanks for forcing me to be more detailed; out of all GAF threads, this is probably the one where I have to be most careful with terminology, and make sure I'm being as accurate as possible about the shit I say.
Hehe. JP21 and RGB SCART actually look the same from the outside, but the wiring is different inside. By the "round" one you might mean the mini-din on the other end?

Toro and FM combo is godly btw, just sayin'... :p
 

Chacranajxy

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Dreamcast must have the best video output of any system from its gen. It's just so absurdly clear, and the colors really pop. Hanzo -> OSSC is stunning.
 

Mega

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I don't think the Toro can force 480p in games that don't have progressive mode. I think the whole point of the box is the convenience of easy switching between games that are 240p/480i RGBS and those that are 480p VGA/RGBHV. Otherwise having one cable or the other would prevent you from playing the full DC library and all res modes. Ignore this if not true!

Anyway I saw AMR2 was out and someone mentioned it's 240p, so why not give it a go on the CRT?

Edit:sorry, posted from mobile and used the wrong imgur size preset. Didn't realize they were Huge instead of the smaller Large size.











 
Here are some Photoshop scaled and cropped screenshots of Wii U's vWii.

The 480p Kirby image was upscaled to 1080p to match the 1080p output image. Melee and Sparkster images were upscaled to 1440p. All photos were 1:1 cropped roughly the same for easy up-close comparisons. Some observations:

All image interpolation was done with Nearest Neighbor resizing. This mode keep the blown up images' picture quality near identical to the original sizes, whereas all the other options smoothed and blurred the image.

480p screenshots have proportions that don't match the others. They also have added blur not present in 720 and 1080p. I think Photoshop does a much better job at blowing up 480p than my plasma's miserable handling of that resolution, so in practice 480p gaming looks even worse than these screenshots.

720p and 1080p look near identical, but in practice my plasma seems to do a better job of presenting 720p and it edges out the latter.

The single Android image capture of Sparkster has a little bit of pixel distortion as a result of feeding the output through the USBHDCAP3, no idea why, but this isn't present during regular HDMI Out. Regardless the Android image shows how all resolution modes in vWii are lacking.


vWii 480p vs 1080p


vWii 480p vs 720p vs 1080p
...
Jesus! Didn't knew it is so bad! xD

Seems the 480p images are filtered more vertically than horizontally. Hmm.
 

Peagles

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I don't think the Toro can force 480p in games that don't have progressive mode. I think the whole point of the box is the convenience of easy switching between games that are 240p/480i RGBS and those that are 480p VGA/RGBHV. Otherwise having one cable or the other would prevent you from playing the full DC library and all res modes. Ignore this if not true!
Well it's not unique in this ability, but it does allow you to do the VGA trick, which effectively forces 480p. But as I said, it doesn't work for all games.
 
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