USA Powerlifting bans all trans women from competing as women

Feb 21, 2018
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USA Powerlifting bans all trans women from competing as women

USA Powerlifting has banned all transgender women from competing as women, even as a trans powerlifter in Minnesota recently won a state championship with another association, setting a state record.

JayCee Cooper, a trans woman, had applied last year to compete in a recent USA Powerlifting event in Minnesota. In December her application was denied.

“Male-to-female transgenders are not allowed to compete as females in our static strength sports as it is a direct competitive advantage,” wrote USAPL Therapeutic Use Exemptions Committee Chair Kristopher Hunt in an email to Cooper.

Hunt followed up with Cooper in January with this explanation:

Transgender male to female individuals having gone through male puberty confer an unfair competitive advantage over non-transgender females due to increased bone density and muscle mass from pubertal exposure to testosterone.”

The “bone density” red herring has been thrown out there for years, at least since MMA fighter Fallon Fox appeared on the scene. The bone density of black women is, on average, significantly higher than that of white women. In fact, some studies have shown the bone strength of black women to be higher than that of white men.

Yet we don’t see any great rush to divide lifting categories by race, proving this bone-density argument to be nothing but a canard designed to specifically target trans athletes.

Hunt did not respond to an email requesting clarification.

Still, USA Powerlifting’s ban on transgender women competing as women is in place.

“USA Powerlifting is not a fit for every athlete and for every medical condition or situation,” the organization said in a statement. “Simply, not all powerlifters are eligible to compete in USA Powerlifting.”

USA Powerlifting did not respond to repeated requests for comment.

The organization’s ban has forced Cooper to look for other opportunities to compete, landing her at events hosted by the U.S. Powerlifting Association. The USPA is smaller and holds fewer events in Cooper’s home state. But she’s happy to be able to compete.

“They allow trans people to compete in their untested division,” Cooper said. “I won their Minnesota State Championship and it was amazing, but it still felt off knowing that I was denied eligibility for USA Powerlifting.”

In the meantime, Cooper has not let go of her dream of competing in USA Powerlifting events.

“I am hopeful that the USAPL membership will stand up for trans inclusion and be on the right side of history. Trans athletes should not be feared but celebrated fiercely.”
My POV is that sports is not a right. Participating and competing in sports has nothing to do with human rights or trans rights. Respect their gender choice, ensure that there is no oppression or persecution. But when it comes to sports that is a voluntary activity that one chose to do. If you get a concussion but love playing sports you may have to make a tough decision and decide not to play sports anymore. At some point we all have to make sacrifices in our lives or give up things we love to do.
 
Nov 5, 2016
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Sports is the one area where I draw a line. In cases like Fallon Fox (fully transitioned male to female, MMA fighter fighting other women) and Mack Beggs (high school student wrestler, female transitoning to male with testosterone/hormone therapy, forced to compete against girls) I just never felt okay with either case.

One has a chemical advantage (Beggs) that otherwise would have been called PEDs, and the other a bio-structural advantage (bone density, whatnot).

With sports it’s just not cut and dry to me.

In high school I was a decent shot put and discus thrower. Pretty average. Had I transitioned to female my senior year and taken estrogen, I probably would have been a state leader on the girls rankings. The smaller disc (in weight and more importantly radius) is extremely easy to generate insane spin/rotation and distance with, as a guy.

Sports are just a grey area. I’m all for LBQT progress, really, but when it comes to athletic competition there’s a certain indisputable science behind drawing a line for sake of integrity and fairness.
 
Feb 21, 2018
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Sports is the one area where I draw a line. In cases like Fallon Fox (fully transitioned male to female, MMA fighter fighting other women) and Mack Beggs (high school student wrestler, female transitoning to male with testosterone/hormone therapy, forced to compete against girls) I just never felt okay with either case.

One has a chemical advantage (Beggs) that otherwise would have been called PEDs, and the other a bio-structural advantage (bone density, whatnot).

With sports it’s just not cut and dry to me.

In high school I was a decent shot put and discus thrower. Pretty average. Had I transitioned to female my senior year and taken estrogen, I probably would have been a state leader on the girls rankings. The smaller disc (in weight and more importantly radius) is extremely easy to generate insane spin/rotation and distance with, as a guy.

Sports are just a grey area. I’m all for LBQT progress, really, but when it comes to athletic competition there’s a certain indisputable science behind drawing a line for sake of integrity and fairness.
agree with this. I also don't like the muddying of the waters by trying to present this as some sort of "right" or "trans right".

Sports aren't a right, its a privilege. I don't think anyone has a "right" to play sports at a competitive level.
 

Ailynn

Faith - Hope - Love
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...Honestly, even as a trans woman myself...I don't really see this as a transphobic decision.

It needs to be a fair competition. Of course, I feel sorry for transgender people who want to compete in such a contest, but it can be difficult to gauge who would be fairly eligible. If a trans woman goes through any male puberty at all prior to transition, it's hard to deny there is at least a chance they will have certain physical advantages that may still carry over post-transition. Not everyone is the same of course, as the effect of massively lowered testosterone and highly elevated estrogen levels on bone density and muscle mass can vary a great deal between individuals.

Now, if a trans girl never went through male puberty, I personally feel that should make it fair for her to compete with other women. It's all a very difficult subject, and really...I believe certain trans-allies may become more upset by this decision than actual transgender women.
 
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#14
It’s a difficult social/political compromise because as a liberal you’re expected to endorse anything pro-minority, and in most cases I do, but this isn’t s case of anti-trans athlete, it’s pro-fairness.

There’s just biological advantages that the transition therapy doesn’t completely alter/nullify.

I want all athletes to be able to compete in the sports they love, safely and fairly.

When I spoke out against Mack Beggs wrestling girls while on testosterone/hormones and other cases of trans female sprinters dominating their state championships (I love track and field) I got blasted pretty hard by the far-left, I guess, or whatever. It’s obvious I’m liberal as fuck, I love that people can find their inner peace and lifelong happiness by realizing their gender, however there are just some select areas where the science of our anatomy cannot be ignored now and direct athletic competition is one of them.

Again, everyone should be able to compete and enjoy sport. Just gotta define what the fair and proper divisions are
 
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They're still allowed to compete against other biological man so they can still play whatever sport they want to play.

The only way to make it fairer is to make competitions open to everyone and just accept that men will edge out women in most.
 
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They're still allowed to compete against other biological man so they can still play whatever sport they want to play.

The only way to make it fairer is to make competitions open to everyone and just accept that men will edge out women in most.
Problem is its not transwomen vs cismen, I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. Its transwomen vs ciswomen. Cismen don't want to compete against ciswomen. The vast majority of ciswomen don't want to compete against cismen. There are a few who are so dominate that the competitive nature kicks in and they want to test themselves against better competition.

But its kinda in a way what you say is what is exactly happening. Transwomen are competing against ciswomen and we are seeing they are starting to edge out the ciswomen. We keep hearing about them winning. Heck this article mentions a transwomen setting a state record.
 
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Problem is its not transwomen vs cismen, I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. Its transwomen vs ciswomen. Cismen don't want to compete against ciswomen. The vast majority of ciswomen don't want to compete against cismen. There are a few who are so dominate that the competitive nature kicks in and they want to test themselves against better competition.

But its kinda in a way what you say is what is exactly happening. Transwomen are competing against ciswomen and we are seeing they are starting to edge out the ciswomen. We keep hearing about them winning. Heck this article mentions a transwomen setting a state record.
My point was that even if transwoman aren't allowed to participate with woman then they can still participate with other biological man.

I know they don't, but the arguments that are made in favour of allowing transwoman to compete against woman can be applied in the woman vs men argument, then you'll have every sport dominated by men.
 
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...Honestly, even as a trans woman myself...I don't really see this as a transphobic decision.

It needs to be a fair competition. Of course, I feel sorry for transgender people who want to compete in such a contest, but it can be difficult to gauge who would be fairly eligible. If a trans woman goes through any male puberty at all prior to transition, it's hard to deny there is a chance they will have certain physical advantages that may still carry over post-transition.

Now, if a trans girl never went through male puberty, I feel that would make it fair for her to compete with other women. It's all a very difficult subject, and really...I believe certain trans-allies may become more upset by this decision than actual transgender women.
And to think that if you, a trans person, said this on resetera, you would be banned for transphobia.

Their actual policy on the subject is as follows: "Resetera policy is that anyone concern posting about genetic advantages by transgender women in competitive sports or claiming transgender women have genetic advantages will be treated as transphobia and/or spreading misinformation on a sensitive issue and moderated appropriately. "
 
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That's exactly why I have very rarely posted anything over there. Discussions are shut down far too quickly at times, and new empathy and understanding between opposing viewpoints are rarely ever given a chance to grow. Sadly, the result is this is usually just further discord. :messenger_pensive:
Egh this discussion over there goes into far greater depth and lacks hottakes for the most part.
 

PKM

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Heres what "ReeeeSetera" ISNT talking about..

Your a 30 year old man..you've spent 15 years as an athlete. A NORMAL man CANT beat you in a sport. YOU ARE AN ATHLETE. You are peak physical condition male.
Sure, you have equal opposition, AGAINT ATHELTIC MEN!

You transition..

NOW you are a SUPER ATHLETIC woman. Your not some soft gentle squishy woman who has to start at the bottom and work your way up to PEAK PHYSICAL FEMINE SHAPE. YOU WENT FROM BEAST MODE male competing against the top 1% of men to a SUPER WOMAN.

These idiots go "Heres a pic of me" or "When I was a guy I could barely lift 100lbs!"

NO SHIT YOU WERENT AN ATHELTE!

YOU CANT TAKE AN ATHELTIC MAN AND TRANSITION THEM INTO A WOMAN AND EXPECT EQUALITY.


WANT EQUALITY...TAKE A 145LB AVERAGE JOE, TRANSITION HIM, THEN LET HIM TRAIN.
LET HIM DEVELOPE HIS BODY AS A WOMAN, NOT BEFORE TRANSITIONING.


JESUS FUCKING CHRIST...they think you can take Hulk Hogan at his prime, pump him full of HRT and in 2 years hes gonna be at the same physical level as a chick?! GTFO

These are jacked as fuck dudes or men who are used to competing at a male level.
They have a baseline to start from no woman has.
These arent average joes who got into a sport post-transition.
They built a SOLID foundation, sculpted an athletic male body, then transitioned.
These women they are competing against had no years of male development.
 
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So basically they were able to find one single journal (written by a trans person, go figure) that says that the innate physical advantages of men are lessened as their testosterone levels decrease. This is somehow some kind of concrete piece of evidence that no one can ever question whether or not a trans woman has a physical advantage against other women?

Something tells me that this isn't a precedent that will apply to ideas they don't like. I'm betting I could find journals printed in publications that make broad statements like this that don't fit narratives they'd want to get behind and they're not going to ban everyone who doesn't follow the holy scripture of random journal #192948189.
 
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Egh this discussion over there goes into far greater depth and lacks hottakes for the most part.
Hahaha, ok. 90% of the posts the first few pages are nothing but repeated hot-takes/one liners in almost every thread.

Stop lying. It only goes into depth of one narrative. @Ailynn would have been banned for her in-depth post if she made it over there. You know it, I know it, we all know it.
 
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PKM

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So basically they were able to find one single journal (written by a trans person, go figure) that says that the innate physical advantages of men are lessened as their testosterone levels decrease. This is somehow some kind of concrete piece of evidence that no one can ever question whether or not a trans woman has a physical advantage against other women?

Something tells me that this isn't a precedent that will apply to ideas they don't like. I'm betting I could find journals printed in publications that make broad statements like this that don't fit narratives they'd want to get behind and they're not going to ban everyone who doesn't follow the holy scripture of random journal #192948189.
They will find any rando data to support there claim but not look at the LONG LIST of transgender, MTF, athletes destroying women on occasion.

Fallon Fox can go around beating chicks senseless but one loss and shes the poster child of "see, theres no difference!" Yet pay for mind to the TBI she gave the other 10 chicks..

Women really need to stand up, little buy little they are being taken adavatged of and having their safe areas intruded on.

But just like the word "NAZI" is uses to shut down opposition voices they will instead use 'TERF' to shout women down.
 
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I absolutely support trans rights in every way, but sports is a tricky one. In a perfect world they would be able to have their own category/competition because they're disadvantaged versus men but advantaged versus cis women. It's a tough spot. I feel for trans athletes but it isn't totally fair.
 
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Makes sense there are some sports in which it doesn matter and others in which it does, so just make a trans league for sports in which physical strength is everything and if that is not acceptable to the trans community because "no i am a women/man" then tough luck you are not competing sorry. At least thats my opinion
 
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...Honestly, even as a trans woman myself...I don't really see this as a transphobic decision.

It needs to be a fair competition. Of course, I feel sorry for transgender people who want to compete in such a contest, but it can be difficult to gauge who would be fairly eligible. If a trans woman goes through any male puberty at all prior to transition, it's hard to deny there is a chance they will have certain physical advantages that may still carry over post-transition.

Now, if a trans girl never went through male puberty, I feel that would make it fair for her to compete with other women. It's all a very difficult subject, and really...I believe certain trans-allies may become more upset by this decision than actual transgender women.
And the biggest problem is that women who participate and complain are being shut down and accused to be transphobic...

I think in life you always have to sacrifice something and for trans people it should be professional physical sport. No one can have everything in life.


Egh this discussion over there goes into far greater depth and lacks hottakes for the most part.
No it does not because ANY discussion is being shut down by bans. There is no depth here. The moment you question something you get a ban.
 
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Here's the thing:

You'd think there were already regulations concerning hormone levels as well as different weight classes.

If not, then I believe it would be far better to come up with a set of updated rules for trans people rather than a ban.

On paper, it could, in fact, seem unfair to have a trans woman compete directly against a cis woman without any other measures taken in order to provide a reasonably even basis for competition.

But, at the same time, it is also rather unfair and yes, probably even bigoted, to simply implement an outright ban on a whole category of people without attempting to do anything else.

Not to mention that the implications of this prohibition can be extended elsewhere in nefarious ways.

For example, black athletes often have higher bone density and more muscle mass than white athletes on average, according to data. Should black people only compete in an entirely separate league then? If the idea is that the existence of any physical or genetic difference that would have an impact on competition is enough to justify discrimination, then that would logically follow.

I can only hope this ban will be, sooner or later, replaced with a more nuanced set of rules instead.
 
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But, at the same time, it is also rather unfair and yes, probably even bigoted, to simply implement an outright ban on a whole category of people without attempting to do anything else.

Not to mention that the implications of this prohibition can be extended elsewhere in nefarious ways.

For example, black athletes often have higher bone density and more muscle mass than white athletes on average, according to data. Should black people only compete in an entirely separate league then? If the idea is that the existence of any physical or genetic difference that would have an impact on competition is enough to justify discrimination, then that would logically follow.
In Physical contact sports it is straight up dangerous for women. The differences between a being black male/female white male/female is not as big as being a men and a women. . And yes life is unfair but if you want to have actual fair competition you have to ban. What you could do is add a 3rd and 4th category. Transmale and Transfemale and then you also have fair competition.
 
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In Physical contact sports it is straight up dangerous for women. The differences between a being black male/female white male/female is not as big as being a men and a women. . And yes life is unfair but if you want to have actual fair competition you have to ban. What you could do is add a 3rd and 4th category. Transmale and Transfemale and then you also have fair competition.
Do those physical contact sports have weight limits or ranges? If not, then their rules should be updated for that.

Someone has posted a rather scary photo above, but I can tell there is an obvious weight (and height) difference. You could probably tweak that first with new guidelines instead of thinking a prohibition is the only answer.

To put it lightly, I think it's both rather uncreative and lazy to jump to a ban. It feels narrow-minded.

Science doesnt matter.

What a world we live in where some science is okay, but other science is not.

I honestly cant believe that I live in a world like the dark ages.

1+1=2=lies apparently.
Science does matter, but the results of any given research do not necessarily mandate a specific policy.

For example: Drugs are bad, according to science, but drug prohibition has often been a total failure. Just because something is bad for your health doesn't mean the only possibility is to make it illegal. That also applies to this situation.

Not to mention that, as in all branches of knowledge, there is always room for more study rather than less.

Science does not automatically lead to a ban on this type of competition. This was a specific decision which was, rightly or wrongly, the product of selecting one out of several possible options.

Science can highlight the existence of differences. It can also provide multiple ways to close the gap.
 
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Do those physical contact sports have weight limits? If not, then their rules should be updated for that.

Someone has posted a rather scary photo above, but I can tell there is an obvious weight (and height) difference. You could probably tweak that first with new guidelines instead of thinking a prohibition is the only answer.

To put it lightly, I think it's both rather uncreative and lazy to jump to a ban. It feels narrow-minded.
New guidelines of what? This was Rubgy. Rubgy has not weight limits and it would not work with weight limits. Especially in this case since the difference is far too big anyway. This photo show how fucking dangerous it would be for women. She could kill someone with that much difference

Also how about Athletics? Like 100M sprint? like endurance races? How will you regulate that? It is impossible
 
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New guidelines of what? This was Rubgy. Rubgy has not weight limits and it would not work with weight limits. Especially in this case since the difference is far too big anyway. This photo show how fucking dangerous it would be for women. She could kill someone with that much difference
I know nothing about rugby, which is probably for the best under most circumstances, but why not?

Even between cis women it would seem a matter of common sense that allowing people with significant weight differences to enter into a direct physical contact competition will serve to increase the chance of leading to dangerous injuries. Regardless of the participation of trans individuals.

What would you say if a cis woman who had a similar height and weight difference was in that photo instead? Would that not pose any sort of risk to cis women who are shorter and have a lower weight than her? I am curious.

For that matter, it's obvious there are going to be trans women who don't look at all like what that photo suggests. In other words, individuals who are not significantly stronger or heavier. How about taking pictures of trans individuals who wouldn't stand out like that? Don't tell me there are none.

Also how about Athletics? Like 100M sprint? like endurance races? How will you regulate that? It is impossible
The history of humanity is full of examples where a paradigm shifted and the impossible became possible.
 
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I know nothing about rugby, which is probably for the best under most circumstances, but why not?

Even between cis women it would seem a matter of common sense that allowing people with significant weight differences to enter into a direct physical contact competition will serve to increase the chance of leading to dangerous injuries. Regardless of the participation of trans individuals.

What would you say if a cis woman who had a similar height and weight difference was in that photo instead? Would that not pose any sort of risk to cis women who are shorter and have a lower weight than her? I am curious.

For that matter, it's obvious there are going to be trans women who don't like at all like what that photo suggests. In other words, individuals who are not significantly stronger or heavier. How about taking pictures of trans individuals who wouldn't stand out like that? Don't tell me there are none.
This much difference would not be possible. I am sorry but these are the facts.


And I told you again that it is the same with 100m sprints or endurance races. There was one trans women who killed the female competition and you know whats even worse. She competes with men in the winter and with women in Summer? How is this fair? Also this huge advantage is only with men transition to women. The other way around it is no problem at all. Women sports is already seen as low class sports by many. If you want to erase women from professional sports go ahead.

PS: A 70KG men can easily bring down a 110KG women who is even a professional fighter. The difference in physical abilities is way too huge.

Also using cis does not make you smarter or your argument better. To me using the word cis is making you look kind of pitiful..
 
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#49
This much difference would not be possible. I am sorry but these are the facts.
That seems more like an opinion or belief, rather than a fact. You've never seen women who are significantly stronger or heavier than other members of the same gender?

I am not an expert, no, but it's not that hard to come up with a few ideas which could be further developed and tweaked by someone else with sufficient knowledge and willpower. Say, if you're a trans person and want to register for this specific sport featuring cis women, you can't weigh more than X pounds. See? It's not that difficult to even start a basic conversation on the subject. Obviously, other rules would be more complex.

And I told you again that it is the same with 100m sprints or endurance races. There was one trans women who killed the female competition and you know whats even worse. She competes with men in the winter and with women in Summer? How is this fair? Also this huge advantage is only with men transition to women. The other way around it is no problem at all. Women sports is already seen as low class sports by many. If you want to erase women from professional sports go ahead.
Nobody is talking about "erasing" anyone, at least outside of the people doing the banning .

That first example sounds like a bit of good old fashioned scaremongering to me, especially since I doubt it happens on a frequent basis. There have also been many stories of people getting seriously hurt or dying in various sports, long before anyone was talking about trans people participating in them. I've heard of new guidelines coming to pass after some of those cases, such as to accommodate for known accident trends and reduce the risk of death.

Again, I think it's rather uncreative, stubborn and simply lazy to pretend nothing can be done at all. If the introduction of trans people into sports represents an extra challenge, which needs to be addressed by the authorities and organizations involved, then so be it, but I am not calling for standing aside or "eating the bullet". I am calling for research, creativity and effort. Still, if there's no will to act, then forget I said anything.

PS: A 70KG men can easily bring down a 110KG women who is even a professional fighter. The difference in physical abilities is way too huge.
Then you could determine what exact weight ranges are acceptable for pitting trans people versus non-trans people. Given how much money is spent on such competitions, I definitely believe that can be determined far more accurately by using various types of scientific indicators.

Also using cis does not make you smarter or your argument better. To me using the word cis is making you look kind of pitiful..
This is such a fallacious, bad faith retort. I am using the term as a shorthand. You know exactly what it means. Not that this makes any damn difference, because it's entirely irrelevant to the actual argument, but I've used it very few times in my life. Still, I am not going to be afraid or ashamed of using the term.
 
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That seems more like an opinion or belief, rather than a fact. You've never seen women who are significantly stronger or heavier than other members of the same gender?
Women who play Rubgy are also very physically strong. But just look how much the difference is. How is this even fair anymore? And if you separate them how will you play in a league with like 100 People? Even more through with separating even more you will create leagues who are less likely to be watched or will find sponsors at all. It is not in any for sustainable


Again, I think it's rather uncreative, stubborn and simply lazy to pretend nothing can be done at all. If the introduction of trans people into sports represents an extra challenge, which needs to be addressed by the authorities and organizations involved, then so be it, but I am not calling for standing aside or "eating the bullet". I am calling for research, creativity and effort. Still, if there's no will to act, then forget I said anything.
No it is not uncreative. It is the only way to do it. Again Is it unfair to trans people? Yes sure but Life is not fair and I rather want the majority to have a fair competition then a very small minority to destroy it. Sorry but that is my opinion.

Then you could determine what exact weight ranges are acceptable for pitting trans people versus non-trans people. Given how much money is spent on such competitions, I definitely believe that can be determined far more accurately by using various types of scientific indicators.
You can not do it at all. Chess? Sure. E- Sports sure, but anything physical no sorry. Especially not when you are in transition. If you are finished and done for lets say 2 years than it is maybe something you can discuss but otherwise no. Also no hormone medication/treatment as well.

This is such a fallacious, bad faith retort. I am using the term as a shorthand. You know exactly what it means. Not that this makes any damn difference, because it's entirely irrelevant to the actual argument, but I've used it very few times in my life. Still, I am not going to be afraid or ashamed of using the term.
Why should you be afraid to use the term? It is just my opinion because 99% of the cases I hear it it is used in a derogatory way. So I do not think it fits in any kind of normal discussion. But that is just me,