USA Powerlifting bans all trans women from competing as women

Oct 21, 2018
408
206
170
#51
Women who play Rubgy are also very physically strong. But just look how much the difference is. How is this even fair anymore? And if you separate them how will you play in a league with like 100 People? Even more through with separating even more you will create leagues who are less likely to be watched or will find sponsors at all. It is not in any for sustainable
I don't necessarily think you need to create entirely different leagues according to weight (however, I am still curious about what I had initially asked you about), though some other types of competitions could probably be reasonably adapted for that just fine, but you can tweak existing classes or categories and introduce more nuanced requirements for trans individuals who wish to participate. Don't tell me there aren't any trans individuals who would fit within a more reasonable range of physical characteristics, if you want to put it that way, for the sake of reducing the gaps when compared to typical female athletes.

If the idea is that even reducing the gap is not enough, because full equality of physical or biological characteristics must be obtained, then I'd go right back to the racial example. Black athletes are, on average, more physically fit than white athletes in various ways but nobody (or, rather, nobody in the mainstream) is calling to create a special set of leagues in order to prevent black men or black women from winning too many of the competitions or to give a truly equal standing to Caucasians, Asians or Latin Americans.

No it is not uncreative. It is the only way to do it. Again Is it unfair to trans people? Yes sure but Life is not fair and I rather want the majority to have a fair competition then a very small minority to destroy it. Sorry but that is my opinion.
You're entitled to that opinion. My job isn't to change it. I am still reiterating, however, that the long history of humanity is full of examples where someone or even entire civilizations once said "it can't be done, you're insane" and, decades or centuries later, someone else figured out a solution. If not, we'd still be living in caves and wearing animal skins or commercial airlines would have never filled our skies. Figuring out ways to adapt sports for greater inclusivity and keeping competition seems like a cakewalk compared to a lot of other issues.

You can not do it at all. Chess? Sure. E- Sports sure, but anything physical no sorry. Especially not when you are in transition. If you are finished and done for lets say 2 years than it is maybe something you can discuss but otherwise no. Also no hormone medication/treatment as well.
Two years might be a starting point. If it is not enough, then let's try three. Again, I think there's a lot of factors that could be regulated, including the use of hormones and other types of treatments. If you need people to already have achieved a certain level of transition or ostensibly "finished" it, as you've described above, then that could be attempted. I've never said that we shouldn't think about those elements.
 
Likes: JareBear

PKM

Gold Member
Oct 11, 2017
781
773
370
#52
1st and 2nd place Connecticut Highschool track. Record holders




2 time Texas Highschool Wrestling champion



World Cycling Champion



No, this isnt a trend.
Just women really good at sports and ironically transgender

How are you .0001% of the population but you got more championships then 99.99% of the population?
 
Last edited:
Oct 24, 2017
6,132
4,979
335
#54
I don't necessarily think you need to create entirely different leagues according to weight (however, I am still curious about what I had initially asked you about), though some other types of competitions could probably be reasonably adapted for that just fine, but you can tweak existing classes or categories and introduce more nuanced requirements for trans individuals who wish to participate. Don't tell me there aren't any trans individuals who would fit within a more reasonable range of physical characteristics, if you want to put it that way, for the sake of reducing the gaps when compared to typical female athletes.
Again if you can not up how to do it then I ca not agree with it at all. Show me examples. And again I rather take this then make women obsolete in terms of athletics. And I told you also that your race example makes no snese since the gap is never as high as it is here. Sometimes in life you just need to sacrifice something and for trans people it should be professional sport. I think it is a very little price to pay overall. Otherwise I support trans people all the way. Be it unisex bathrooms financial and medical help for sex change etc. but with sports I draw a line because it is just not fair to the other athletes.


Two years might be a starting point. If it is not enough, then let's try three. Again, I think there's a lot of factors that could be regulated, including the use of hormones and other types of treatments. If you need people to already have achieved a certain level of transition or ostensibly "finished" it, as you've described above, then that could be attempted. I've never said that we shouldn't think about those elements.
Yeah and if you are 3 ears out of any competition you are basically done for. The range for people to be professional athletes is already very small.
 
Last edited:
Nov 5, 2016
5,201
4,120
285
I don't care where (just far)
#55
1st and 2nd place Connecticut Highschool track. Record holders




2 time Texas Highschool Wrestling champion



World Cycling Champion



No, this isnt a trend.
Just women really good at sports and ironically transgender
I referenced two of these three cases in a post early in this thread.

The bottom line is I feel there needs to be a universal ruling regarding governing bodies of high school, college, amateur, pro athletics and have the science examined. If its concluded that biological advantages remain even after transition surgery/hormone therapies, which I’m sure I’ll happen, there just needs to be a separate division, or it stays based on birth gender. Some may say it’s unfair to the trans athletes but either way it’s unfair to someone.
 
Oct 26, 2018
1,343
842
230
#57
I'm all for limiting competition into mens and womens groups, but playing Devil's Advocate....... competition within genders isn't fair either.

In most sports, someone who is bigger and stronger will likely do better than a scrawny guy, so isn't that discriminatory? Why should big hulks be competing in the same field as small dudes?

Some sports like boxing, wrestling and such have weight classes to even things out, but there is still height advantages and withing weight classes, there can be 10 lb swings..... or more if they mess around with cutting weight and then gaining it back the next day.

Just make it a free-for-all and watch Dan Cormier win 10 belts. lol
 
Last edited:

PKM

Gold Member
Oct 11, 2017
781
773
370
#58
I referenced two of these three cases in a post early in this thread.

The bottom line is I feel there needs to be a universal ruling regarding governing bodies of high school, college, amateur, pro athletics and have the science examined. If its concluded that biological advantages remain even after transition surgery/hormone therapies, which I’m sure I’ll happen, there just needs to be a separate division, or it stays based on birth gender. Some may say it’s unfair to the trans athletes but either way it’s unfair to someone.
We have to be honest and realize when it comes to trans issues the politcs/social justice aspect is going to taint it.


Everyone in society in 2019 wants to scream "WHAT ABOUT THE GIRLS!! #METOO TOXC MASCULINITY!!"
Well, let's do something for Cis-women and fucking defend them.
Be it feminist issues, lesbian issues, and now sports, Transgender MTF women are pushing their was in and calling all naysayers TERFS.

Seriously, read this. Read what happened with the Lesbian rep from their LGBT group.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.af...ecame-the-most-hated-lesbian-in-baltimore/amp
 

Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
3,792
3,494
460
#59
Nope, just a petite young lady busting ass in cycling


LOOK AT THOSE CALVES!
I think this woman does a better job with leg day

 
Oct 26, 2018
1,343
842
230
#61
We have to be honest and realize when it comes to trans issues the politcs/social justice aspect is going to taint it.


Everyone in society in 2019 wants to scream "WHAT ABOUT THE GIRLS!! #METOO TOXC MASCULINITY!!"
Well, let's do something for Cis-women and fucking defend them.
Be it feminist issues, lesbian issues, and now sports, Transgender MTF women are pushing their was in and calling all naysayers TERFS.

Seriously, read this. Read what happened with the Lesbian rep from their LGBT group.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.af...ecame-the-most-hated-lesbian-in-baltimore/amp
Issues like this are hilarious.

It's pretty clear that sports is something traditional split between genders due to the biological advantage men have. Ok, maybe something like gymnastics or platform diving women can be just as good. But since most sports (especially ones involving direct contact) involve power, speed, endurance, guys have an advantage right off the bat. I wouldn't be surprised if the average beer guzzling dude who gets home and is have asleep on the couch can handle a female wrestler. Or at least put up a decent fight with no training. Put the same lazy slob against a beefy trained mens wrestler and he's be squashed in 3 seconds.

So to allow trans dudes to battle females in combat sports is absurd. But hey, if it's all about equality, got to allow it.

Just waiting for gender bending participants to be allowed for sports...... not trans people in medical transformation..... but simply 100% men who want to win womens championships because "they feel female".
 

PKM

Gold Member
Oct 11, 2017
781
773
370
#64
Ask yourself this question..

"Where are all the Female to Males destroying men in sports?"

Come on, little HRT for 2 years and Sally you knew from down the block should be winning state championships any day right?
 

diablos991

Can’t stump the diablos
Jun 15, 2013
8,385
486
525
#67
It needs to happen.
Sports are not fair when this kind of stuff is involved.

Fair competition is more important than inclusivity when looking at sports at this elite level.
 
Last edited:
Oct 24, 2017
6,132
4,979
335
#73
Some sports like boxing, wrestling and such have weight classes to even things out, but there is still height advantages and withing weight classes, there can be 10 lb swings..... or more if they mess around with cutting weight and then gaining it back the next day.
If within weight classes men would wish the floor with women who have the same height, the same weight etc.
 
Likes: RedVIper
Dec 3, 2013
17,566
10,487
555
#74
If within weight classes men would wish the floor with women who have the same height, the same weight etc.
Anyone who thinks that a female in the same weight class as Floyd Mayweather or Conor McGregor would be able to hang are smoking crack. I select them specifically because of their small frames and mass.

Hell, Sugar Ray Leonard would lay waste with old school technique.
 
Jun 25, 2015
2,723
894
300
Finland
#75
A man can not become a woman.
A woman can not become a man.
Ironically the trans community would kinda agree with you on that. They would say they don't become anything because a trans woman has always been a woman and a trans man has always been a man.
 
Last edited:
Likes: Ailynn
Mar 23, 2018
836
478
250
#76
If transwoman are allowed to compete, they can better kill of the entire woman division. Because what's the point.

Better it will most likely kill the whole woman division by itself as woman will simple not care anymore.
 
Last edited:
Oct 24, 2017
1,418
1,021
290
#77
You know, on one hand, all this sounds tremendously unfair to other women who have to compete with these trans-"women", but on the other hand, if you step back a bit, you sort of realize the whole recent evolution of women's sports(besides ice skating, etc) in the past few decades have really nothing to do with competition, but more about SJW-ism. What's happening now seems like a natural evolution of that. I mean, why not let the women(trans and cis) do what they want? Who watches women's sports anyway?
 
Last edited:

bad

Member
Nov 5, 2013
2,442
115
430
New York
#79
Men have wider shoulders and women have wider hips, so there may be an advantage among certain sports going up against a cis person. I’d like to read more studies on the issue if anyone’s got.
 
Dec 3, 2013
17,566
10,487
555
#80
Watching that just hurts my knees. That can't be correct form for anything. What the fuck is she doing ....

She is ripped now, but she'll be dealing with arthritis in 5 years.
I agree to an extent, but I think she has a very strong core which most of the power is resonating from. If you really watch the gif, you can see the kinetic energy mostly generating from the core aided by balance in her form.
 
Last edited:
Likes: JareBear
Oct 2, 2018
329
816
210
#81
The history of humanity is full of examples where a paradigm shifted and the impossible became possible.
While this is true we have to keep in mind that not all of these instances of paradigm shifts had positive effects.

I think people have kind of a narrow minded view on this where they are just thinking "oh, just let them compete" and "let's be inclusive" and maybe that's fine at lower levels of sport.

When you get to the top levels the amounts of money involved can really warp people and make them do whatever they can to win and get that sweet prize and sponsorship money.

So, for example, at the Olympics the 100m sprint is one of the bigger events.
The winners can expect to become household names and inspirational figures.
There's a lot of money and fame that comes with that.

The Men's 100m world record is 9.58, set in 2009 by Usain Bolt.
The Women's 100m world record is 10.49, set in 1988 by Florence Griffith-Joyner.

So let that settle in. The womens record has not been broken in 30 years!

Then let's look at the Round 1 heats for the Men's 100m.
70 men competing over 8 heats. With the first 2 in each heat and the next 8 fastest moving on to the semi-finals.
Out of those 70 men, taking part in that first round, 60 of them ran faster than the women's world record.

So what we are effectively saying here is that the 60th best man in 2016 is capable of beating the women's record that has stood for 30 years.

If "self-identifying" becomes a thing then you open the door for the 50th, 60th whatever best male to actually become an Olympic medal winner and world record holder.

Look at the lengths people go to in cycling to win the top spot.

Eventually, somebody somewhere is going to think "I could be a complete nobody in the men's field OR I could be the first ever trans Olympic medalist" So the paradigm would shift for sure. What country wouldn't LOVE to have the first trans gold medalist and world record holder representing them. Then other countries would follow suit.

We would quite naturally come to a point where women's track and field events are completely dominated by trans-women.
So realistically a biography of the next women's 100m world record holder would feature the story of their transition.
Eventually every top level competitor in womens sports would have their transition story as part of the story of their success.

Then this just filters down. So you are going to have a future problem at grass roots where girls do not want to get involved in serious sports because there's nothing there for them. Like if you are born a girl then you will have no chance of competing at the highest levels because only women who have transitioned can make it at that level.

How is that a good example of a paradigm shift?

I think that many TERFs are rabid and bigoted and just nasty individuals.

Yet, I am sure there are some who can see the writing on the wall here and who are right when they point out that allowing trans-women to compete in womens sports will eventually lead to the top levels being entirely dominated by trans-women.
 
Oct 24, 2017
6,132
4,979
335
#82
So, for example, at the Olympics the 100m sprint is one of the bigger events.
The winners can expect to become household names and inspirational figures.
There's a lot of money and fame that comes with that.

The Men's 100m world record is 9.58, set in 2009 by Usain Bolt.
The Women's 100m world record is 10.49, set in 1988 by Florence Griffith-Joyner.

So let that settle in. The womens record has not been broken in 30 years!

Then let's look at the Round 1 heats for the Men's 100m.
70 men competing over 8 heats. With the first 2 in each heat and the next 8 fastest moving on to the semi-finals.
Out of those 70 men, taking part in that first round, 60 of them ran faster than the women's world record.

So what we are effectively saying here is that the 60th best man in 2016 is capable of beating the women's record that has stood for 30 years.
To give this even more weight


The fastest woman in 2018 in the 100m run isn't even in the Top1043 of men for example.

https://www.iaaf.org/records/all-ti...=false&firstDay=2018-01-01&lastDay=2018-12-31)

The gap between men and women is huge and that is why men and women do not compete against each other.
 
Last edited:
May 20, 2007
9,892
270
940
#83
Personally I am for trans athletes competing as their preferred gender because it forces a conversation to be had that people would avoid otherwise. To be specific, I feel that whatever guidelines the trans community as a whole feels are fair should be implemented.
 
Dec 3, 2013
17,566
10,487
555
#84
Personally I am for trans athletes competing as their preferred gender because it forces a conversation to be had that people would avoid otherwise. To be specific, I feel that whatever guidelines the trans community as a whole feels are fair should be implemented.
I see what you are saying, so for someone like Patrik Baboumian that feels they are.a female tomorrow, might as well pin all the platinum metals on em right now.
 
Likes: RedVIper
Oct 17, 2011
8,822
592
585
#85
I'm all for limiting competition into mens and womens groups, but playing Devil's Advocate....... competition within genders isn't fair either.

In most sports, someone who is bigger and stronger will likely do better than a scrawny guy, so isn't that discriminatory? Why should big hulks be competing in the same field as small dudes?

Some sports like boxing, wrestling and such have weight classes to even things out, but there is still height advantages and withing weight classes, there can be 10 lb swings..... or more if they mess around with cutting weight and then gaining it back the next day.

Just make it a free-for-all and watch Dan Cormier win 10 belts. lol
Because things like training can even things out among same genders, while training without hormone treatments won't help a woman reach the same strength as a man. It's why the argument is usually made to allow women who are transitioning to men to compete against men. The testosterone treatments make it so they can become equally as (in some cases more so) strong as the other men. While already athlete level men taking Estrogen won't be effected much muscle wise and will already be stronger than basically all the other competition. There is a reason most physical test are decreased for women. Military exams are easier for women than for men, in some states (and I think this is foolish) firefighter test are easier for women than men. So I see what you're saying with the weight of some athletes, but sometimes training can do more for an athlete than weight. Remember, as scrawny as he was, Bruce Lee could lift 700lbs, enough to make him a challenge for anyone taller or bigger than him.
 
Jul 6, 2011
5,329
325
665
#86
While with team sports you can somehow cloud the advantage of being transgender, in powerlifting would be very much a massacre against female born athletes.
 
May 20, 2007
9,892
270
940
#87
I see what you are saying, so for someone like Patrik Baboumian that feels they are.a female tomorrow, might as well pin all the platinum metals on em right now.
As long as they pass all the guidelines set by the trans community. The most effective way to measure their guidelines is with thorough testing.

If it means natal women no longer can compete so be it, at least it's not discriminatory against trans individuals.
 
Nov 5, 2016
5,201
4,120
285
I don't care where (just far)
#88
While this is true we have to keep in mind that not all of these instances of paradigm shifts had positive effects.

I think people have kind of a narrow minded view on this where they are just thinking "oh, just let them compete" and "let's be inclusive" and maybe that's fine at lower levels of sport.

When you get to the top levels the amounts of money involved can really warp people and make them do whatever they can to win and get that sweet prize and sponsorship money.

So, for example, at the Olympics the 100m sprint is one of the bigger events.
The winners can expect to become household names and inspirational figures.
There's a lot of money and fame that comes with that.

The Men's 100m world record is 9.58, set in 2009 by Usain Bolt.
The Women's 100m world record is 10.49, set in 1988 by Florence Griffith-Joyner.

So let that settle in. The womens record has not been broken in 30 years!

Then let's look at the Round 1 heats for the Men's 100m.
70 men competing over 8 heats. With the first 2 in each heat and the next 8 fastest moving on to the semi-finals.
Out of those 70 men, taking part in that first round, 60 of them ran faster than the women's world record.

So what we are effectively saying here is that the 60th best man in 2016 is capable of beating the women's record that has stood for 30 years.

If "self-identifying" becomes a thing then you open the door for the 50th, 60th whatever best male to actually become an Olympic medal winner and world record holder.

Look at the lengths people go to in cycling to win the top spot.

Eventually, somebody somewhere is going to think "I could be a complete nobody in the men's field OR I could be the first ever trans Olympic medalist" So the paradigm would shift for sure. What country wouldn't LOVE to have the first trans gold medalist and world record holder representing them. Then other countries would follow suit.

We would quite naturally come to a point where women's track and field events are completely dominated by trans-women.
So realistically a biography of the next women's 100m world record holder would feature the story of their transition.
Eventually every top level competitor in womens sports would have their transition story as part of the story of their success.

Then this just filters down. So you are going to have a future problem at grass roots where girls do not want to get involved in serious sports because there's nothing there for them. Like if you are born a girl then you will have no chance of competing at the highest levels because only women who have transitioned can make it at that level.

How is that a good example of a paradigm shift?

I think that many TERFs are rabid and bigoted and just nasty individuals.

Yet, I am sure there are some who can see the writing on the wall here and who are right when they point out that allowing trans-women to compete in womens sports will eventually lead to the top levels being entirely dominated by trans-women.
Random side note that really has nothing to do with your point:

In the case of FloJo, may she Rest In Peace, I’m pretty sure she was roided to the gills that year. That was the year before more stringent drug testing was being implemented and she retired right after setting the record. She had gotten faster that year to an extent rarely seen at that high a level.

That record will probably never be broken
 
Likes: Saruhashi
Oct 24, 2017
6,132
4,979
335
#90
Random side note that really has nothing to do with your point:

In the case of FloJo, may she Rest In Peace, I’m pretty sure she was roided to the gills that year. That was the year before more stringent drug testing was being implemented and she retired right after setting the record. She had gotten faster that year to an extent rarely seen at that high a level.

That record will probably never be broken
ow about the fact that women would not even be in the top 1000 if we compare the times of 2018 alone?

Here is the point babies are born and almost equal but during puberty etc this changes drastically if you now put into the mix men/boys who are trans the one really getting fucked are women. Yes you can make up some differences to more training but regarding gender differences these are just minimal. And with physical team sports you can even severe hurt them .

there has to be a line drawn at some point and this is the line. You are not dying when you can not compete in Professional sports anymore. Deal with it if your life otherwise is good. Or go and compete with men. But the other way around I am sorry but NO.
 
Likes: slugbahr
Nov 5, 2016
5,201
4,120
285
I don't care where (just far)
#91
ow about the fact that women would not even be in the top 1000 if we compare the times of 2018 alone?

Here is the point babies are born and almost equal but during puberty etc this changes drastically if you now put into the mix men/boys who are trans the one really getting fucked are women. Yes you can make up some differences to more training but regarding gender differences these are just minimal. And with physical team sports you can even severe hurt them .

there has to be a line drawn at some point and this is the line. You are not dying when you can not compete in Professional sports anymore. Deal with it if your life otherwise is good. Or go and compete with men. But the other way around I am sorry but NO.
Bro I was just talking about FloJo. You don’t gotta tell me. I’m on your side, as all my prior posts suggest.

I coached high school track for 9 years. A great high school male sprinter can compete with Olympic female sprinters. There’s clearly a necessary separation
 
Oct 21, 2018
408
206
170
#92
If "self-identifying" becomes a thing then you open the door for the 50th, 60th whatever best male to actually become an Olympic medal winner and world record holder.
The obvious problem with this way of thinking , which comes across as narrow-minded upon reading the rest of your post and some of the other self-serving comments here, is that you're immediately assuming there would be absolutely no regulations or guidelines at all that would take those circumstances into consideration. Which runs entirely in the opposite direction of what I have been arguing here. If you can't come up with proper guidelines, that's fine, but I am sure someone else on this planet can do so.

It's painting a rather cartoonish picture of a paradigm shift and an incomplete one at that, based entirely on the premise of a whole army of already existing male athletes suddenly deciding to self-identify as women, for no other reason than to gain a prize, and then registering for the opposite gender's competition. Outside of the fact that feels like a rather fringe scenario to begin with, it involves assuming nobody would ever notice such transparent attempts and craft relevant rules for the sake of ensuring that sort of thing doesn't happen.

I believe the process could be made strict yet reasonable enough that only a subset of trans individuals, those who have an already preexisting history of transition as well as certain hormone levels / achieved HRT goals and not the type of people you are describing, would qualify. Again, this would require the willpower to think outside of the box and not the opposite.

Eventually, somebody somewhere is going to think "I could be a complete nobody in the men's field OR I could be the first ever trans Olympic medalist" So the paradigm would shift for sure. What country wouldn't LOVE to have the first trans gold medalist and world record holder representing them. Then other countries would follow suit.
Only if you were to assume this would all take place without also changing the rules for registration and competition as a trans individual. Which is a key part of what I've been saying here.

We would quite naturally come to a point where women's track and field events are completely dominated by trans-women.
So realistically a biography of the next women's 100m world record holder would feature the story of their transition.
Eventually every top level competitor in womens sports would have their transition story as part of the story of their success.

Then this just filters down. So you are going to have a future problem at grass roots where girls do not want to get involved in serious sports because there's nothing there for them. Like if you are born a girl then you will have no chance of competing at the highest levels because only women who have transitioned can make it at that level.
I find this conclusion unrealistic and unnatural, as a matter of fact, for the reasons stated above and below.

1. Trans individuals are already an incredibly small percentage of the population.

2. Trans individuals who regularly practice sports are an even smaller percentage of the trans community.

3. Trans individuals who would be good enough to qualify for a competition are, by extension, even fewer.

Comparing the historical records of awards won by men and women is not enough and can even be misleading, because that information doesn't include how trans individuals (especially those who have had sufficient hormone treatment) are performing in comparison nor does it take into account the types of guidelines and rules that could be employed for the sake of addressing the concerns expressed.

How is that a good example of a paradigm shift?
Frankly, it isn't, because I don't agree with the assumption and premises behind this scenario.
 
Last edited:
Oct 2, 2018
329
816
210
#93
Random side note that really has nothing to do with your point:

In the case of FloJo, may she Rest In Peace, I’m pretty sure she was roided to the gills that year. That was the year before more stringent drug testing was being implemented and she retired right after setting the record. She had gotten faster that year to an extent rarely seen at that high a level.

That record will probably never be broken
Yeah, I mean I am sure doping is rife throughout the athletics world.

I always wondered why people did it since they would know that their "glory" was basically a lie. They'd know that they cheated.
Then when you realize the money involved it makes a lot of sense.
The Russians were doping for political reasons and I m sure other governments are meddling with their athletes in similar ways.
Olympic medals are a great and visible way to say "look how great our country is". Attracting investment etc.

So, with some of that in mind, I think we can see how this will play out to some extent.
A few nations already probably have their eye on it.
First transgender Olympic medalist and world record holder. That's a big deal.

On the record being broken, I predict that this record, and many others, will be broken by a trans athlete within the next 3 summer Olympics. I am almost certain of this. The social environment and everything else points to it.

We are in the stage where it is being resisted but it cannot logically be resisted while nations are changing their laws surrounding gender and pronouns etc.

It literally makes no sense to say "trans women are women" and also say "trans women cannot compete in women's sports".
Unless we are going to have a legal definition of a "trans woman" that involves pretty extensive medical examination.
I cannot see this happening.

Rather, "self-identification" will be the thing and that's the standard that sporting organizations will be legally held to.
 
Oct 24, 2017
6,132
4,979
335
#94
1. Trans individuals are already an incredibly small percentage of the population.

2. Trans individuals who regularly practice sports are an even smaller percentage of the trans community.

3. Trans individuals who would be good enough to qualify for a competition are, by extension, even fewer.
So we should rather go with them and accept it that all the women and girls that get her dreams destroyed because they learn early on that they have no chance against a trans women? Professional sport or a career does start at a very early age and when you get the feeling that no matter what and how much you train you have no chance at all.

And you know whats the worst here? That girls can not even say that this is unfair or they will be labeled as trans phobic because they got beaten by a transwomen.
 
Oct 2, 2018
329
816
210
#96
The obvious problem with this way of thinking , which comes across as narrow-minded upon reading the rest of your post and some of the other self-serving comments here, is that you're immediately assuming there would be absolutely no regulations or guidelines at all that would take those circumstances into consideration. Which runs entirely in the opposite direction of what I have been arguing here. If you can't come up with proper guidelines, that's fine, but I am sure someone else on this planet can do so.
Why would there be regulations that only trans-women are subject to though?

It makes no sense to have a set of criteria for competing in women's events that are clearly set up to block trans-women from entry.

You are talking about literal discrimination.

Plus you are effectively saying to a trans-woman that they are seen as a woman under the law and by society BUT suddenly when it comes to sports we are drawing a line.

There is NO WAY that the Olympic Committee in 2024 or 2028 is blocking trans-women from competing in women's events.
How can they?

Dude, you're not going to have society over here saying that self-identification is enough to be whatever gender you want to be and then over in the world of sports they are saying "hell no you can't compete in women's sports until you've undergone rigorous, probably humiliating and embarrassing testing and WE will decide if you are woman enough to get in".

The idea is laughable.
 
Oct 21, 2018
408
206
170
#97
Why would there be regulations that only trans-women are subject to though?

It makes no sense to have a set of criteria for competing in women's events that are clearly set up to block trans-women from entry.

You are talking about literal discrimination.
That seems like a rhetorical question, for that matter, since you came up with the implication of either false or superficial attempts at transition being involved. Guidelines should, evidently, try to prevent that.

The whole point wouldn't be to "block trans-women from entry" in the first place. In fact, it would be for the purpose of allowing trans-women to participate without an undue advantage. I am clearly not talking about rules that would make it impossible for trans individuals to register and compete altogether. Rather, I am all for those which would allow legitimate trans persons to do so.

It wouldn't be logical, for instance, to let the men's powerlifting champion simply declare himself a woman one day, proceed to do absolutely nothing else, and then go on to win the opposite gender's competition. Isn't that what you're talking about? I do believe such a situation could be regulated or even off limits.

Plus you are effectively saying to a trans-woman that they are seen as a woman under the law and by society BUT suddenly when it comes to sports we are drawing a line.
Again, this is a misunderstanding of what I am saying. It's also rather silly that you believe this would be more discriminatory than an universal ban on trans individuals, which is what is happening now, at least in the area of U.S. powerlifting.

Dude, you're not going to have society over here saying that self-identification is enough to be whatever gender you want to be and then over in the world of sports they are saying "hell no you can't compete in women's sports until you've undergone rigorous, probably humiliating and embarrassing testing and WE will decide if you are woman enough to get in".

The idea is laughable.
Call it laughable now. If this forum is still around in five, ten or twenty years...it might not be so funny.

I believe several sports have regular drug testing. This would be no more embarrassing than that.

Self-identification has a very different set of implications before the law, when we are talking about matters of civil rights, marriage, public education or inheritance as an example, compared to the area of medical treatments or sports performance.
 
Last edited:
Oct 21, 2018
408
206
170
#98
So we should rather go with them and accept it that all the women and girls that get her dreams destroyed because they learn early on that they have no chance against a trans women? Professional sport or a career does start at a very early age and when you get the feeling that no matter what and how much you train you have no chance at all.

And you know whats the worst here? That girls can not even say that this is unfair or they will be labeled as trans phobic because they got beaten by a transwomen.
Not if you have read my previous posts in good faith as well as in a comprehensive manner.
 

appaws

Gold Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,233
581
1,040
Taylorsville, Ky!
#99
I think this is relevant, although just anecdotal. People seem to believe that there is a line at puberty, and before that there are no innate differences between boys and girls....and they base the idea that trans-women should be able to compete with actual women as long as they transitioned before puberty.

But I used to coach youth hockey for a long time. And I have to say that only in the youngest kids, maybe at 5 or 6 years old, were there competitive girls. Usually by virtue of being better skaters than some of the boys. (People think it is cute, the little mite with her blond hair trailing out her helmet, skating circles around come clunky-ass boys.) But something happens around 8 or 9 and that is gone. The boys are too aggressive and you can really start to see the size difference. It was at that point that we tried to transition the girls into their own thing (although it was harder with numbers, boys outnumbered girls 10-1) and the boys into their own. I think a lot of it is social networks that they develop in grade school, and identifying with their sex. Even if Dad got them into youth hockey at 6....by 9 they are in 4th grade and they learn that none of their little girlfriends do that, and they fall away, or follow their friends into dance or gymnastics. My main point being that there are innate sex differences before puberty.
 
Oct 21, 2018
408
206
170
I think this is relevant, although just anecdotal. People seem to believe that there is a line at puberty, and before that there are no innate differences between boys and girls....and they base the idea that trans-women should be able to compete with actual women as long as they transitioned before puberty.
This is interesting, but it makes me come back to an earlier point. Whether it is before or after puberty, you're still comparing individuals from both genders without taking into consideration any kind of HRT or equivalent treatment, which is part of what trans women and trans men would have to go through. I think there needs to be a lot more study of that specific side of the issue, rather than generalizing and extrapolating based on historical data for non-trans persons or on isolated anecdotes.
 
Last edited: