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[Ashes]

Xdr is license. It costs as little as Sony can get someone to make them.

Not really sure about gddr3. So you're probably on point. Plus ps2 only stopped production recently.

 

[iamshadowlark]

There noway possible for it to be any harder to get good GDDR5 produced than it was XDR. The PS3 represents like 85%(or something ridiculous) of the XDR market. Its really a non-issue.

 

[Ashes]

XDR is ... Oh never mind..

There are memory controllers in development to help overcome those latency issues - or at least improve performance

http://www.chipestimate.com/techtalk.php?d=2011-11-22

The above is an old article that discusses the latency issues

Interesting. Thank you for the link.

 

[jeff_rigby]

uuse5 on SemiAccurate has found more indications that wide IO memory will be used on game consoles. Wide IO in this case refers to 512 bit wide either Custom DDR3 or using the wide IO standard.

http://semiaccurate.com/forums/showpost.php?p=176437&postcount=1252

http://semiaccurate.com/forums/showpost.php?p=176443&postcount=1253

http://semiaccurate.com/forums/showpost.php?p=176454&postcount=1257

Old version (see newer version below)

A slightly different (newer?) Yole 3D IC report from Sep 2012 during Semicon Taiwan last year. Only says 2013 instead of 2013/14 This is still considered speculation on Yole's part but I think Wink Wink speulation. The 6.4 billion Phone and Tablet sales between now and 2017 are directly related to the technology being outlined in the Yole PDF.

In the below look at the very top => Game console with Stacked DDR3. Timing looks like 1st quarter 2013 which works for developers getting a final version by summer.

Below is a GF chart of near future products and memory interfaces. ALL use wide memory interfaces including a unexpected GDDR5 with 1600 connections.

The pictures below and Amkor product release schedule below differs from a Amkor product release schedule that is on AMD's site and released the same month. This created confusion and I think false speculation that the PS4 might be delayed. The first Amkor product release with this picture on the AMD site is scheduled for Holiday 2013 (PS4), the second Amkor PDF is found on the AMKOR site and I feel is the industry adoption of 2.5D assembly.

http://wenku.baidu.com/view/0b8f81f4f90f76c661371a64.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9KjtVjis8Ps#t=6874s

 

[AuthenticM]

I'm not a tech guy, but does this mean that by 2020, every device, regardless of its nature, is going to sport the same components ? And do the components being stacked-up as shown mean that computers will have achieved the ultimate point in efficiency ?

 

[Ashes]

I'm not a tech guy, but does this mean that by 2020, every device, regardless of its nature, is going to sport the same components ? And do the components being stacked-up as shown mean that computers will have achieved the ultimate point in efficiency ?

3dIC is the next big step in the evolutionary process, but too far off at the moment, so a variety of interim suggestions have been proposed.

http://www.eetimes.com/design/programmable-logic/4370596/2D-vs--2-5D-vs--3D-ICs-101

 

[iceatcs]

I don't much of them, but I feel MS will go for Amkor and Sony go for Yole.

 

[jeff_rigby]

8 billion devices connected to the Home network by 2015

IBM, STMicroelectronics and Shaspa today announced a collaboration to tap cloud and mobile computing for manufacturers and service providers to provide innovative ways for consumers to manage and interact with their homes' functions and entertainment systems using multiple user interfaces such as voice recognition and physical gestures for a smarter home.

A "smart home" brings networking functions together, creating a gateway that connects a television, computer or mobile device with smart meters, lights, appliances, plugs and sensors within the home as well as services from outside. Parks Associates forecasts that more than 8 billion devices will be connected on the home network by year-end 2015.

 

[Übermatik]

Interested to see what happens...

 

[tipoo]

So can wide IO DDR3 catch up to GDDR5 bandwidth wise? Or would the GDDR5 already be wide IO? Apart from bandwidth, would either have advantages like latencies?

I'm not a tech guy, but does this mean that by 2020, every device, regardless of its nature, is going to sport the same components ? And do the components being stacked-up as shown mean that computers will have achieved the ultimate point in efficiency ?

No, not at all. All that's saying is that things will move more to single chips, instead of having a separate GPU, CPU, RAM stacks, etc. There will still be different chips by different companies and things will always find a way to move forward.

 

[Ashes]

The new info suggests Sony are chasing after stacking.

 

[antic604]

The new info suggests Sony are chasing after stacking.

You mean the one from Edge:

We have confirmed with sources that recently leaked tech specs are accurate. Though Durango devkits offer 8GB of DDR3 RAM, compared to Orbis’s 4GB, Sony’s GDDR5 solution is capable of moving data at 176 gigabytes per second, which should eliminate the sort of bottlenecks that hampered PS3 game performance. Importantly, we’ve learned that Sony has told developers that it is pushing for the final PS4 RAM to match up to Microsoft’s 8GB.

I think so too, even though I have no clue if 2.5D stacked DDR3 will match the bandwidth of smaller amount GDDR5? Anyone in the know care to comment on that?

 

[Ashes]

If company y wants it, they can get it. The problem is not that the bandwidth is theoretically possible, but that the manufacturing isn't possible yet, as far as we know. Perhaps this explains, why Sony are 'pushing' for 8gb.

I doubt you can put 8gb GDDR5 chips - given console limits. I guess we'll know in 3 weeks.

ps. Sony should already know btw.

 

[Perkel]

If company y wants it, they can get it. The problem is not that the bandwidth is theoretically possible, but that the manufacturing isn't possible yet, as far as we know. Perhaps this explains, why Sony are 'pushing' for 8gb.

I doubt you can put 8gb GDDR5 chips - given console limits. I guess we'll know in 3 weeks.

ps. Sony should already know btw.

I don't think stacking will be in PS4 at premiere at 20 of february and frankly there is very little time to make any changes to design.

But if stacking could be done by march-april then it is possible that they will change from GDDR5 to Stacked 8GB DDR3 Wide IO That would leave them about 7 months to include in production line design and safely stock consoles before lunch.

Anyone have some data on bandwidth speed of Wide IO DDR3 ?

 

[Ashes]

The SoC should already be taped out with Amd/Sony combing through for bugs. There's at least a 1000 parts that goes into a console, all of which need to work together for a given envelope.
They ought to be working on yields, then ramping up in the months leading in. Sony know what they can realistically achieve already. I'm presuming January kits was good news to devs. Stacking is on for a tight schedule. Hold on to your hats if you're a Sony engineer.

Lunch. ;p

 

[Perkel]

The SoC should already be taped out with Amd/Sony combing through for bugs. There's at least a 1000 parts that goes into a console, all of which need to work together for a given envelope.
They ought to be working on yields, then ramping in the months leading in. Sony know what they can achieve already. I'm presuming January kits was good news to devs.

Lunch. ;p

Yeah fucking lunch again. Launch i meant. Still I make this mistake...

Well there is rumor that they are trying to go for 8GB. By now they should already have decision we will know everything 20.

 

[Ashes]

Lunch is apt.

And yeah, you never know with these things. It could change last minute if some natural disaster occurs. E.g. Hd prices shoot through the roof etc...

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I really think the Orbis is done at this point. They'll be working on refining and ramping production up now.

It will probably take them between now and June/July to get the production line up to the amounts they need to produce a day to have enough consoles for launch.

Just a complete guess on my part to how these things work.

 

[Ashes]

Teething problems can go well into the launch phase too. Anyone remember the rumours of the huge number of x360 defects? In the factories I mean, not just RROD afterwards. Rushing to market is fine and dandy, but customers ought to have a console that should last more than a couple of years.

 

[Mandoric]

Teething problems can go well into the launch phase too. Anyone remember the rumours of the huge number of x360 defects? In the factories I mean, not just RROD afterwards. Rushing to market is fine and dandy, but customers ought to have a console that should last more than a couple of years.

360 is an outlier, from being cut absolutely to the bone in terms of build quality and being the first major launch with lead-free solder along with its speed. Even rushed launches in the future are unlikely to be that terrible.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

360 is an outlier, from being cut absolutely to the bone in terms of build quality and being the first major launch with lead-free solder along with its speed. Even rushed launches in the future are unlikely to be that terrible.

I remember seeing a video before the 360 launch showing their QA. They showed racks of 360's being "cooked" and they seemed quite pleased at the lengths they were going to to ensure quality.

I always remember that vid and think how did they miss all the problems?

 

[Graphics Horse]

I remember seeing a video before the 360 launch showing their QA. They showed racks of 360's being "cooked" and they seemed quite pleased at the lengths they were going to to ensure quality.

I always remember that vid and think how did they miss all the problems?

Maybe it was preemptive PR spin, I don't remember anyone else showing off videos of their QA reliability testing. Although Nintendo will talk about it in Iwata Asks.

 

[jeff_rigby]

"Using the current DLNA premium content guidelines, Service Providers are now allowing consumers to stream their favorite television programs and movies to products such as digital televisions, tablets, mobile phones, Blu-ray disc players and video game consoles," This from a release at CES 2013 but we have yet to see it on the PS3. I suspect that this means Sony will have a firmware update Feb-March possibly the day before Feb 20th with a new DLNA renderer and more.

Sony and Microsoft have been ready to support RVU with DLNA and DTCP-IP since 2010. The initial standard was to use bitmapped menus but that is/has changed to HTML menus and HTML5 video (Mpeg2 and h.264) allowing 1080P and S3D on TVs that support it. The game console can be a "set top box" supporting the standard. Features like XTV, voice control and more will be added to the base RVU functionality provided by thin client set top boxes. Late 2012 Comcast had several markets supported by this but it appears 2013 is going to see the rollout to most markets along with ATSC 2.0 features added (S3D, 1080P, XTV)

Video: Comcast demonstrate Intel’s XG5 set top box streaming content with DLNA


Video: Comcast demonstrate Intel’s XG5 set top box streaming content with DLNA
January 20, 2013 - News, Videos - Tagged: CES, CES 2013, Comcast, DLNA, intel

At CES DLNA announced service providers where using DLNA to deliver premium content around the home and Comcast have where demonstrating using an Intel XG5 set to box to distribute premium content to Smart TVs, phones and DLNA clients. Using DLNA content like guide data, on demand and live TV can be sent from the Intel box to DLNA clients.

Video describing features. "Set top box functionality" will be supported by PS3, PS4 and Xbox 720. Xbox 360 (no 1080P or 1080P S3D) can also support a subset of the PS3-PS4-Xbox 720 features.

INTERNATIONAL CES 2013, LAS VEGAS – January 9, 2013 – The Digital Living Network Alliance® (DLNA®) today announced that Service Providers are now using DLNA Guidelines to deliver premium services to consumer devices. Service Providers including Comcast, Cox, DIRECTV, Orange and Time Warner Cable have deployed products implementing the DLNA® premium content guidelines, a set of standards announced at International CES 2012 and developed in conjunction with the Service Provider community to create greater consumer content choices on consumer electronics devices.

“Using the current DLNA premium content guidelines, Service Providers are now allowing consumers to stream their favorite television programs and movies to products such as digital televisions, tablets, mobile phones, Blu-ray disc players and video game consoles,” said Nidhish Parikh, chairman and president of DLNA. “Connected devices are a central part of today’s digital home, and DLNA is continually helping consumers easily share, view and engage with premium content and services while reducing the device clutter present in so many of today’s living rooms.”

DLNA® Guidelines were developed with consumer connectivity in mind. DLNA premium content guidelines open up opportunities for the delivery of premium commercial services to a wide range of retail devices. The Alliance is working on several enhancements that include enabling consistent presentation of User Interfaces (UI) across devices and providing consumers with the look and feel that they have come to expect from their selected provider. DLNA Service Provider member companies remain actively involved in the ongoing expansion and support of DLNA®premium content guidelines to enable additional premium content features.

“Devices supporting the DLNA premium content guidelines can access premium services using XG1 set-top boxes with the AnyRoom DVR service that Comcast has begun deploying,” said Tony Werner, EVP and CTO, Comcast Cable. “We look forward to working with DLNA vendors to enhance DLNA premium content guidelines to include HTML5, MPEG-DASH and other standard extensions that will enable offerings such as our XFINITY® Guide with enhanced access to linear programming, DVR and on demand services.” “Cox is actively deploying its Cox Advanced TV Plus video service that allows DLNA premium content devices to access Cox Whole Home DVR content,” said Steve Necessary, Vice President, Video Product Development & Strategy, Cox Communications, Inc. “We expect more than 500,000 subscribers to have DLNA premium content functionality using our Trio advanced guide within a year,” he added.

“The DLNA premium content guidelines used by the DIRECTV Genie allow full HD DVR functionality without the need for receivers in every room,” said Romulo Pontual, executive vice president and CTO of DIRECTV. “Our customers can pause and rewind live TV, discover and record shows, and enjoy the DIRECTV Genie’s simple and magical television experience directly on any of the millions of RVU-enabled Samsung Smart TVs in homes today, with more RVU-enabled devices coming throughout 2013.” “For the benefit of our new Livebox Play offer, which will provide our customers with an enhanced entertainment experience, Orange has been deeply involved in the development of key new features of the DLNA premium content guidelines,” said Paul-François Fournier, Technocentre executive vice president, Orange. “The Diagnostics feature will allow our helpdesk service to guide our customers, enabling them to resolve problems quickly and easily. The Low Power feature is a must-have function in Europe for managing the power-saving modes of Orange equipment as well as consumer electronics devices over the home network.”

“Today, we have millions of set-top boxes deployed capable of delivering content to DLNA premium content products using our Signature Home Service,” said Mike LaJoie, EVP and CTO of Time Warner Cable. “New extensions to DLNA premium content guidelines will be valuable as we continue to extend the reach of our services to more consumer devices.”

The design of the PS4 and Xbox 720 must provide for a Low power XTV/DLNA mode and that includes HTML5 functionality.

 

[ALBOFIGHTER]

If Sony can stream live soccer matches, they have won Europe. Until that happens, all this tv shows and movies bs is meaningless. I will buy whichever console streams soccer. I hope it's ps4.

 

[Rad-]

If Sony can stream live soccer matches, they have won Europe. Until that happens, all this tv shows and movies bs is meaningless. I will buy whichever console streams soccer. I hope it's ps4.

If either 720 or PS4 has the option to stream every Premier League match, I'm buying that shit day one.

 

[onQ123]

"Using the current DLNA premium content guidelines, Service Providers are now allowing consumers to stream their favorite television programs and movies to products such as digital televisions, tablets, mobile phones, Blu-ray disc players and video game consoles," This from a release at CES 2013 but we have yet to see it on the PS3. I suspect that this means Sony will have a firmware update Feb-March possibly the day before Feb 20th with a new DLNA renderer and more. This will be a part of the Future of Playstation meeting Feb 20th. (March and September have been major firmware update months in the past as they are traditional Gnome/webkit/Linux 6 month scheduled release months.)

Sony and Microsoft have been ready to support RVU with DLNA and DTCP-IP since 2010. The initial standard was to use bitmapped menus but that is/has changed to HTML menus and HTML5 video (Mpeg2 and h.264) allowing 1080P and S3D on TVs that support it. The game console can be a "set top box" supporting the standard. Features like XTV, voice control and more will be added to the base RVU functionality provided by thin client set top boxes. Late 2012 Comcast had several markets supported by this but it appears 2013 is going to see the rollout to most markets along with ATSC 2.0 features added (S3D, 1080P, XTV)

Video: Comcast demonstrate Intel’s XG5 set top box streaming content with DLNA


Video: Comcast demonstrate Intel’s XG5 set top box streaming content with DLNA
January 20, 2013 - News, Videos - Tagged: CES, CES 2013, Comcast, DLNA, intel

At CES DLNA announced service providers where using DLNA to deliver premium content around the home and Comcast have where demonstrating using an Intel XG5 set to box to distribute premium content to Smart TVs, phones and DLNA clients. Using DLNA content like guide data, on demand and live TV can be sent from the Intel box to DLNA clients.

Video describing features. "Set top box functionality" will be supported by PS3, PS4 and Xbox 720. Xbox 360 (no 1080P or 1080P S3D) can also support a subset of the PS3-PS4-Xbox 720 features.

The design of the PS4 and Xbox 720 must provide for a Low power XTV/DLNA mode and that includes HTML5 functionality.

I don't think the PS3 will need a FW update for this it will be more on the set top box side.

 

[R10Neymarfan]

If either 720 or PS4 has the option to stream every Premier League match, I'm buying that shit day one.

This...and whoever has the best console version of FIFA 14 next gen

 

[DBT85]

If either 720 or PS4 has the option to stream every Premier League match, I'm buying that shit day one.

The rights to the Premier League are absolutely enormous. SKY and BT just paid a total of £1 billion per season for the rights to air just 154 games a season ONLY in the UK for the next three years. Thats £6.5m per game.

The company I work for is paid to be the Official Premier League channel for many countries excluding those that pay that kind of money to do it themselves. Sitting here watching a nice barely compressed HD feed of West Brom vs Spurs right now, before it gets compressed to buggery like those watching at home on Sky have to watch.

Anyone wanting to stream EVERY game would need to come up with fucking crazy money AND beat other bidders.

 

[itsgreen]

The rights to the Premier League are absolutely enormous. SKY and BT just paid a total of £1 billion per season for the rights to air just 154 games a season ONLY in the UK for the next three years. Thats £6.5m per game.

The company I work for is paid to be the Official Premier League channel for many countries excluding those that pay that kind of money to do it themselves. Sitting here watching a nice barely compressed HD feed of West Brom vs Spurs right now, before it gets compressed to buggery like those watching at home on Sky have to watch.

Anyone wanting to stream EVERY game would need to come up with fucking crazy money AND beat other bidders.

Don't Sky and BT have 360 apps that do that?

 

[DBT85]

Don't Sky and BT have 360 apps that do that?

Not every game. They might well have apps that allow you to watch the games they are also showing.

 

[R10Neymarfan]

Here in the US, ESPN and MLS are more likely. If they can get La Liga and Brasileiro I will be happy

 

[jeff_rigby]

I don't think the PS3 will need a FW update for this it will be more on the set top box side.

I don't know what's already in the PS3 but we need HTML5 video both Mpeg2 and h.264. Also the PS3 DLNA renderer needs Wifi Direct (software update) and Dbus fling from handhelds; that's being supported now server side but local negotiation I haven't seen. Voice command I think is coming, it's already on Samsung Smart TVs. Skype or an updated chat program should be coming also.

I expected a Jeff's at it again with his wild speculation and was looking forward to pointing out the PS3 picture in the upper right. <grin>.

 

[Ashes]

Poor jeff.

 

[Nevasleep]

If either 720 or PS4 has the option to stream every Premier League match, I'm buying that shit day one.

The rights would be horrible to sort out. In the UK they are already shown on the Xbox via a Sky TV app.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Brad Grenz from BY3D

From Tech Report's 7970 Review about the new VCE:

More exciting is a first for discrete desktop GPUs: a hardware video encoder. Since UVD refers explicitly to decoding, AMD has cooked up a new acronym for the encoder, VCE or Video Codec Engine. Like the QuickSync feature of Intel's Sandy Bridge processors (and probably the SoC driving the smart phone in your pocket), VCE can encode videos using H.264 compression with full, custom hardware acceleration. We're talking about hardware purpose-built to encode H.264, not just an encoder that does its calculations on the chip's shader array. As usual, the main advantages of custom logic are higher performance and lower power consumption. Tahiti's encode logic looks to be quite nice, with the ability to encode 1080p videos at 60 frames per second, at least twice the rate of the most widely used formats. The VCE hardware supports multiple compression and quality levels, and it can multiplex inputs from various sources for the audio and video tracks to be encoded. Interestingly, the video card's frame buffer can act as an input source, allowing for a hardware-accelerated HD video capture of a gaming session.

Both Durango and Orbis appear to contain the VCE, so I'd expect game capture to have minimal overhead.

This also supports adaptive streaming (multiple compression and quality levels), to handhelds from PS4 and Xbox 720.

ATSC 1.0 uses the DVD codec and is the current US Digital OTA standard. With ATSC 1.0 we have 1080i as a maximum resolution and no S3D. Cable follows the OTA standards for the most part but instead of using VSB, uses QAM modulation because it's more efficient with the assumption that the signal level is better than OTA. Once past the Tuner and demodulation stage both OTA and Cable are identical streams of digital packets VERY similar to (out of order) IPTV.

ATSC 2.0 is a standard for OTA that allows 1080P and S3D using the blu-ray codec and will be implemented by cable. ATSC 2.0 also sets standards for XTV that will be followed by cable.

The point is that RVU was delayed from 2010 where it was supposed to use DLNA + DTCP-IP and bitmapped menus served to thin clients and now the standard is HTML5 menus and Mpeg2 (DVD codec) + h.264 (Blu-ray codec) as well as dash (adaptive) streaming IPTV video (This to wireless stream to handhelds in the home). Adaptive variable bit rate streaming to handhelds is something special that can be done by PS4 and Xbox 720 and a few specialized set top boxes but won't be in Smart TVs or Roku boxes.

XTV was delayed and the standards developed in 2008 were XHTML 4.01 with no javascript (Uses Java) using XML based on OpenVG. This is what the PS3 software stack supports from day one as a Blu-ray player (Java) and the XMB is XML based on OpenVG. OpenVG is a subset of Cairo by design but Cairo is an evolving superset of OpenVG that requires OpenGL for the 3D portions of Cairo. In 2011 Sony said Cairo is expected to evolve to use Collada which was developed by Sony (game assets library). Cairo is used by webkit for drawing/text and is part of the PS3 software stack since March 2011. The PS3 browser is webkit based on the GTKwebkit API. It appears to be using only OpenVG and CPU based at this point (no GPU acceleration and no OpenGL which results in the smallest implementation).

The XTV standard will be set with ATSC 2.0 and it looks to be based on HTML5 with javascript instead of Java used for APPs. If you look above to RVU, it also is based on HTML5 for menus and HTML5 adaptive (DASH) video streams.

The PS3 and Sony are following/creating standards for ATSC 1 & 2 as well as XTV and RVU. The delays seen in RVU and ATSC 2.0 implementation (change to webkit HTML5) impacted the software stack in the PS3 and delayed implementation of apps and advanced features in the PS3. Sony must follow standards and ATSC 2.0 is creating most of the standards.

So Sony blu-ray players with Webkit browsers have the software stack to support RVU & ATSC 2.0 standards for 1080P to 1080P TVs just as the PS3 has. All those 1080P TVs that could only enjoy 1080P with a blu-ray player can support 1080P on cable with newer cable box or RVU and a newer blu-ray or a PS3 with a firmware update.

 

[DancingCactus77]

How certain is PS4 going to be using an AMD chip? What's the best source or could there be a surprise come the 20th?

 

[ALBOFIGHTER]

I hope they use h.265 for compression instead. It's already approved and I think they are ironing some things out. It's only February, by the end of the year it will be the new standard I assume. Next gen consoles better make use of it.

 

[RoboPlato]

I hope they use h.265 for compression instead. It's already approved and I think they are ironing some things out. It's only February, by the end of the year it will be the new standard I assume. Next gen consoles better make use of it.

They absolutely will. I'm sure at least Sony will be supporting it from day 1 since they're a big part of the h.265 consortium. I'm looking forward to it. Tired of super compressed video.

 

[rdrr gnr]

How certain is PS4 going to be using an AMD chip? What's the best source or could there be a surprise come the 20th?

The source is that nVidia are cunts, apparently.

 

[PandaL]

How certain is PS4 going to be using an AMD chip? What's the best source or could there be a surprise come the 20th?

Because Sony doesn't want the 3rd party games to run badly on PS4. So they moved from CELL to traditional CPU.

The source is that nVidia are cunts, apparently.

Agreed. Sony should have gone with AMD for PS3 itself. I'm glad that Sony moved to AMD for PS4.

 

[jeff_rigby]

How certain is PS4 going to be using an AMD chip? What's the best source or could there be a surprise come the 20th?

There are multiple indications.

1) AMD stockholder conference call with design wins mentioned.
2) AMD Dec 17th 8000m NDA with AMD providing GPUs for Consoles
3) Rumors (Sweetvar 26) both consoles AMD CPU (Jaguar) and GPU Sony (Thebe) Microsoft (Kryptos)
4) AMKOR product intercept GPU/CPU on interposer with stacked memory Holiday 2013 release and there is no announced AMD GPU with this so we assume it's one of the Game console design wins.
5) Latest developer platform leaks
6) HWinfo.com mentioning Thebe and Kryptos as AMD fusion (CPU + GPU) October 8, 2012

Most of the above can apply to both consoles and none of the above conflict.

 

[jeff_rigby]

AMKOR now in progress Interposer and Wide IO RAM assembly/stacking:

Interposer

&#8226; 2,508 bumps per memory die Looks like 1024 bit wide IO can be supported
&#8226; 27,362 bumps per logic die
&#8211; 40um (perimeter) and 80um (center) pitch
&#8226; Total of 73,126 Connections
&#8226; 94,640 TSVs

&#8226; Sources
&#9472; Amkor is engaged with three sources who are delivering silicon interposers
&#9472; An additional two sources are under collaboration discussion
&#8226; Logistics
&#8211; Amkor receiving full thickness wafers in from two primary sources
&#8226; Amkor bumps front side and finishes backside of wafer


&#8226; Amkor bumps front side and finishes backside of wafer
&#8226; Activity
&#9472; Multiple programs in progress
&#8211; Most targeting 100µm as finished thickness ; some thinner to 50µm
&#8211; Several with backside RDL requirements
&#8211; A few with passive components on top side of interposer No active interposer
&#8211; Both heterogeneous and homogeneous die layouts on interposer

Memory
&#8226; Sources
&#9472; Customer choosing memory supplier
&#9472; Receiving memory from 2 different sources today
&#8226; Logistics
&#9472; Amkor working with customers to finalize model
&#8226; Plan is receive memory as &#8216;KGM&#8217; on tape and reel

&#8226; Plan is receive memory as &#8216;KGM&#8217; on tape and reel
&#8226; Activity
&#9472; Multiple programs in progress with stacked memory in wide I/O format
&#8211; Typically receiving 2 die stacks, but some 4 die stacks as well
&#8211; Most development being completed with single memory in wide I/O

This does not confirm either Thebe or Kryptos is logic (CPU/GPU) and memory on interposer with Wide IO but it does eliminate arguments from those who say Memory is not being stacked with TSVs. Information released Dec 12, 2012.

DDR3 used for density

The below is not a mobile package so there is a good chance that it's what Thebe (PS4) will look like. (It's also not a multi-package FPGA) Found by uuse5.

Notice the manufacturing date in the above picture Jan 2013. Sony could show a working PS4 at the Feb 20th meeting.

Notice the manufacturing date Jan 2013 and my post AMKOR manufacturing (putting together TSV stacked RAM and assembling the 2.5D interposer and stacked memory) Dec 15, 2012.

Oban Dec 2011 tapes out (Charlie), Feb-March GF, both now making the same Oban in production quantities.
Rumor Sweetvar26 apx August-Sept 2012 states Thebe done and final chip (Kryptos) being sent to Microsoft for approval. Thebe was first but delayed 6 months AMD concentrating on Kryptos and both use Jaguar CPUs.
HWinfo.com Oct 8, 2012 updates and lists Fusion Thebe and Kryptos
AMKOR assembling packages Dec 15, 2012
AMD NDA release Dec 17, 2012 8000M GPU in Game Consoles
Jan 2013 AMKOR pictures of final packages Logic plus memory on interposer.
Feb 20, 2013 Sony the Future of Playstation meeting with stockholders invited with rumors of a PS4 reveal.

I wonder at the timing if Oban taped out Dec 2011 and is the total Microsoft Kryptos with HWinfo.com updating support for Thebe and Kryptos at the same time Oct 8, 2012 which likely means both are finished, have acceptable yields and are scheduled for production/release in 2013.

With Sony announcing the PS4 first, timing appears to support Sweetvar26's version with Kryptos in production/taped out after Thebe around August 2012 NOT Dec 2011. So what was Oban Dec 2011 being produced by IBM and GF in production quantities? Oban = Japanese large blank gold coin with bumps.

Both consoles will support XTV/IPTV/RVU and need very low power modes which need more efficient memory = Stacked wideIO (512 or 1024 bit wide) on Interposer. Both should have Jaguar CPUs with one package turned on and a separate smaller GPU or separately powered subsection of a GPU (2-4 CUs) with the rest of the GPU and one CPU package sleeping, in all cases all using the same memory pool and controller.

If Sony is announcing and has AMKOR packaging Thebe Jan 2013 is Thebe on a Oban Interposer or is Oban Microsoft only and just delayed because Microsoft has no money to be first?

AMKOR announced there are three sources for interposers for their multiple projects and Charlie mentioned three forges producing Oban. The interposer in the picture is HUGE and this reduces the number being produced per silicon wafer so many more wafers need to be produced. If Oban is the interposer it answers the production quantities as well as needing to be manufactured first by multiple forges to produce quantities needed by both Microsoft and Sony for two console launches in 2013. More than 10 interposer wafers will need to be produced for every wafer containing Thebe chips.

You see (above) where I have had problems with Oban as Kryptos for more than 6 months.

 

[systemfehler]

snip

Does that mean that Sony has a viable option to go 8GB DDR4?

 

[KennyLinder]

How many GAMECUBEs?

 

[Ashes]

AMD NDA release Dec 17, 2012 8000M GPU in Game Consoles

There won't be mobile gpus in the console Jeff. The gpu in consoles may have similar traits to previously released mobile gpus but using binned chips is.. oh I give up..

We are closer on the issue of stacking though - closer but not all in. As far as predictions go, I'd say 4GB is locked then with an outside chance of 8GB. And I'm about the last one of us with you on that front..
Everyone else seems to be all in with 4GB GDDR5.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Does that mean that Sony has a viable option to go 8GB DDR4?

Reading the AMKOR PDF, DDR3 is used for density. If you look at wide IO floor plans, 4 DDR3 partitions are used all on the same level not 4 DDR3 chips stacked on top of each other. This helps eliminate the need for TSVs in the RAM.

Cost and heat management are the challenges. Figure 4 shows an example of memory on logic: a wide I/O memory &#8220;cube&#8221; on logic, where the dashed light blue area represents the wide I/O memory &#8220;cube&#8221; stacked onto the advanced logic die, front-to-back (F2B). The red area highlights the silicon real estate occupied by the TSV, µbumps, and by the memory controllers. Both the wide I/O memory &#8220;cube&#8221; and the logic chip have thermal sensors (represented by green squares) to assess if the logic chip is creating hot spots and where, to determine the appropriate self-refresh rate for the DRAM. Wide I/O SDRAM JEDEC standardization is on-going and should be published in early 2012

If Oban is the transposer and used by both Microsoft and Sony then the ram made for one will work for the other. The choice may be cost based with Microsoft having (non-game) plans for the extra RAM that Sony does not need. Rumors have the PS4 as the more powerful game console with rumors having Microsoft trying for a Media/game/cablebox server jack of trades with a push for the more casual game and VR.

There won't be mobile gpus in the console Jeff. The gpu in consoles may have similar traits to previously released mobile gpus but using binned chips is.. oh I give up..

8000M mobile chips are not binned, they are made to be mobile GPUs. How can 8000M be binned when there are no 8000 series desktop GPUs in production so that they can be binned? Upper end 7000 series desktop GPUs are being relabeled as 8000 series low end/midrange desktop GPUs.

8000M mobile GPUs have compute efficiencies 150% higher than 7000 series desktop GPUs.

And I'm about the last one of us with you on that front.. Everyone else seems to be all in with 4GB GDDR5.

Yeah, for 6 months I've been saying stacked Wide IO RAM and Interposer and providing proof after proof. Kinda shake my head and just post when I find more proof. Charlie at SemiAccurate has also been assuming GDDR5 but with GDDR5 there is no need for TSVs or interposer and one of his articles mentions Sony using TSVs and going stacking crazy so not consistent.

 

[Ashes]

8000M mobile chips are not binned, they are made to be mobile GPUs. How can 8000M be binned when there are no 8000 series desktop GPUs in production so that they can be binned? Upper end 7000 series desktop GPUs are being relabeled as 8000 series low end/midrange desktop GPUs.

8000M mobile GPUs have compute efficiencies 150% higher than 7000 series desktop GPUs.

oh really?

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

The Kotaku article also claimed that the Orbis would be the first console to allow more than one user to log in at a time (360).

Despite that oversight, they do have over 90 pages of official PDFs they didn't elaborate on.

I'm going to keep saying this: kotaku did not have the documents. The source had it and just gave kotaku a few but of info.

If everyone read the article it even says he had the doc, not kotaku.

 

[jeff_rigby]

oh really?

Yeah, look at the Mars GPU, something like .6Tflops with fewer CUs than any desktop GPU. IF it were binned it should be a better made more efficient GPU with a higher yield of good CUs right? Any way you look at it, AMD Mobile GPUs are no longer binned like they used to be. Even on BY3D the thinking is like yours and no longer correct.

Look at the package (in the picture) and understand that DDR3 RAM can not work above 85 degrees Celsius. We are looking at a 60-80 watt package with multiple temp sensors and power/clock management to keep the package below 85 degrees.. Wide IO ram shaves off about 15 watts (vs GDDR5) of the TDP.

Go to page 10 in this PDF Mobile GPU designs are more efficient and near future AMD mobile designs use a common memory pool not a separate pool for APU and one for the second discrete GPU. Near future mobile GPUs will also be using Wide IO ram for power efficiency while Desktop PCs will still be using DIMMs and GDDR5 for the discrete GPU.

Page 15 in the above PDF is a floorplan for wide IO.

BY3D

Can we please stop assuming that all mobile GPUs are ultra-specially-binned and hand-picked chips? That's nonsense.

For low and mid-end parts, AMD probably even sells a lot more laptop chips than their desktop counterparts. AMD or nVidia would never be able to meet the supply demands for their mobile parts if they were all "specially binned".

The "mobile" chips are put into PCBs optimized for lower consumption, they're downclocked and undervolted as well as the memory chips.
There's no "special-sauce" going into mobile GPUs so please stop this urban myth about everything mobile being "specially binned" and impossible to use in a console.

 

[seattle6418]

Reading the AMKOR PDF, DDR3 is used for density. If you look at wide IO floor plans, 4 DDR3 partitions are used all on the same level not 4 DDR3 chips stacked on top of each other. This helps eliminate the need for TSVs in the RAM.




If Oban is the transposer and used by both Microsoft and Sony then the ram made for one will work for the other. The choice may be cost based with Microsoft having (non-game) plans for the extra RAM that Sony does not need. Rumors have the PS4 as the more powerful game console with rumors having Microsoft trying for a Media/game/cablebox server jack of trades with a push for the more casual game and VR.

8000M mobile chips are not binned, they are made to be mobile GPUs. How can 8000M be binned when there are no 8000 series desktop GPUs in production so that they can be binned? Upper end 7000 series desktop GPUs are being relabeled as 8000 series low end/midrange desktop GPUs.

8000M mobile GPUs have compute efficiencies 150% higher than 7000 series desktop GPUs.

Yeah, for 6 months I've been saying stacked Wide IO RAM and Interposer and providing proof after proof. Kinda shake my head and just post when I find more proof. Charlie at SemiAccurate has also been assuming GDDR5 but with GDDR5 there is no need for TSVs or interposer and one of his articles mentions Sony using TSVs and going stacking crazy so not consistent.

Sony is definitely going stacking, there are lots of hints, clues and proof out there. It's GDDR5 bandwidth they were going after, don't know why people keep saying GDDR5 chips in when is basically saying that Sony is building a console through newegg.

Those newegg comparasions are always frowned upon because they are not accurate, i don't know why people can say this about GDDR5 without getting called.

GDDR5 in their design makes no sense. Stacked memory makes all sense and has the clues to show for it. Both solutions will offer 176gb/s.