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[captive]

If those involved did in fact murder that person in cold blood than absolutely, throw the book at them, but these knee jerk reactions bring on virtual angry mob mentality and that isn't going to solve anything either. It just riles up emotions and anger. Analyze, probe for more information, talk about it. That's all fine and well. Police need to be held accountable or we lose faith in the system. That being said we are still going by a shaky phone video of the situation. If I have doubts others will as well and doubt means that it's POSSIBLE things aren't as we perceive them. Yes, the video looks fucked up for sure but I have questions, don't you? Until I find out more information I'm not going to join in with blind rage GAF on this one.

except that even with blatent video evidence, Eric Garner, the police aren't held accountable, and yea the majority of an entire race has lost faith in system.

 

[BronzeWolf]

If those involved did in fact murder that person in cold blood than absolutely, throw the book at them, but these knee jerk reactions bring on virtual angry mob mentality and that isn't going to solve anything either. It just riles up emotions and anger. Analyze, probe for more information, talk about it. That's all fine and well. Police need to be held accountable or we lose faith in the system. That being said we are still going by a shaky phone video of the situation. If I have doubts others will as well and doubt means that it's POSSIBLE things aren't as we perceive them. Yes, the video looks fucked up for sure but I have questions, don't you? Until I find out more information I'm not going to join in with blind rage GAF on this one.

What questions do you have? Cops should be held to an even higher standard than regular citizens, not the other way around, just because of the amount of power they wield.

 

[ThisGuy]

I quoted the wrong person. I meant to quote a post you made on page 3. I fixed my post.

But that's not really a war on police is it. Hyperbolic statements like that do harm to the overall black community. And takes away from the cause of trying to fix the problems with the police.

No one's taking away from cop death by calling out individual incidents and pointing out the problem with the police. Some people do, but not here at this moment.

War would imply a group of people who are organized, which side is being described in your opinion?

 

[SliceSabre]

If those involved did in fact murder that person in cold blood than absolutely, throw the book at them, but these knee jerk reactions bring on virtual angry mob mentality and that isn't going to solve anything either. It just riles up emotions and anger. Analyze, probe for more information, talk about it. That's all fine and well. Police need to be held accountable or we lose faith in the system. That being said we are still going by a shaky phone video of the situation. If I have doubts others will as well and doubt means that it's POSSIBLE things aren't as we perceive them. Yes, the video looks fucked up for sure but I have questions, don't you? Until I find out more information I'm not going to join in with blind rage GAF on this one.

Ok, now I know you're a joke account.

I almost took you seriously! Good on ya, you got me this time. "Lose faith in the system" Hahahaha!

 

[anexanhume]

I'm not going to watch the vide of someone getting killed, but what was the race of the victim?

He appears to be Latino.

 

[Principate]

The pop of the gunshot isn't the bullet travelling. It's the gunpowder exploding.

Oh course but depending on the distance between the receiver of the sound vibrations and the distance of the bullet has to travel to reach the target. you have to use several calulations to determine exact time times.

which is why it's a silly idea to go I heard the gun shot after he moved, if the time it took for the sound travel distance to reach the receiver is greater than the time it took for the bullet to reach the target (thus causing him to move), as the bullet travels faster than sound. He could have always moved after conceivable reaction times but not due to impact of the bullet.

We are not calculating how much time the bullet took to reach Gilbert's body, but when did the police officer pulled the trigger in relation to Gilbert's movements.

That's what I'm referring to. Whether the movements where cause of the gun shot or after it.

 

[CitizenCope]

If those involved did in fact murder that person in cold blood than absolutely, throw the book at them, but these knee jerk reactions bring on virtual angry mob mentality and that isn't going to solve anything either. It just riles up emotions and anger. Analyze, probe for more information, talk about it. That's all fine and well. Police need to be held accountable or we lose faith in the system. That being said we are still going by a shaky phone video of the situation. If I have doubts others will as well and doubt means that it's POSSIBLE things aren't as we perceive them. Yes, the video looks fucked up for sure but I have questions, don't you? Until I find out more information I'm not going to join in with blind rage GAF on this one.

Yeah I need to get out. All cops should have body cameras, tazer first for F's sake and the cops posts are disgusting but if If someone questions the video my God.

 

[commish]

How is this not murder? Unreal. No idea what defense would not be laughable when the guy was putting his hands up.

 

[T-Dot]

If those involved did in fact murder that person in cold blood than absolutely, throw the book at them, but these knee jerk reactions bring on virtual angry mob mentality and that isn't going to solve anything either. It just riles up emotions and anger. Analyze, probe for more information, talk about it. That's all fine and well. Police need to be held accountable or we lose faith in the system. That being said we are still going by a shaky phone video of the situation. If I have doubts others will as well and doubt means that it's POSSIBLE things aren't as we perceive them. Yes, the video looks fucked up for sure but I have questions, don't you? Until I find out more information I'm not going to join in with blind rage GAF on this one.

It is pretty obvious that the cop shot the man.

 

[Leatherface]

Yeah, normally I have this exact mentality because there are too many uncertainties. This time seems fairly obvious though.

the arm movement thing is bothering me because I can't be certain if it's reaction or the dude going for something. I get the debate going on about it but I'm not quite convinced. That's why I want to see if more info comes out. I know if I was pointing my weapon at someone and they made a quick movement, I can't say I wouldn't do the same damn thing. It doesn't take long to react when you are already in position to use your weapon.

 

[darscot]

How many people die from angry mobs in the US? I didn't do the research but I'm betting more people die from the police. Why is everyone so worried about the angry mob mentality? This video shows a man murdered in cold blood and people are preaching calm and lets get the facts, like angry mobs are exploding unprovoked and murdering people everyday.

 

[BronzeWolf]

That's what I'm referring to. Whether the movements where cause of the gun shot or after it.

I see what you are saying. That's pretty easy to calculate though. A bullet travels at 340 m/s. I am apparently very bad at calculating distances but the police officer is no more than 10 m away from Gilbert. That would substract 30 ms to the minimum time difference:

Minimum time difference: 630ms of which 410ms is what takes the sound to reach the mic at 140 meters away.
Observed time difference: 270ms

My conclusion still stands

 

[FACE]

It's cool how people are learning obscure science facts like how light is faster than sound in this thread.

Obscure? I learned that in high school.

 

[A Human Becoming]

Ok, now I know you're a joke account.

I almost took you seriously! Good on ya, you got me this time. "Lose faith in the system" Hahahaha!

Not sure what's wrong with that statement. I think people in this thread and others have been losing faith in the system as more videos comes out showing outright murder and questionable tactics. Hell, the lack of prosecution for bank fraud in 2008 is alone enough to lose faith in the system.

 

[Principate]

I suppose you are talking about the microphone.


What? The sound is made at the gun, not when the bullet hits. The only important timestamp is when the trigger has been pulled and when the powder has been ignited.

Yes that's the point, but if he moves as consequence of being bit. It's possible to hear the gun shot after this, if he is close enough to the gun and the microphone far enough away.

This is all in reference to the guy talking about hand movements before the sound of gunshot, which is a flawed conclusion without the proper evidence and calculations.

 

[BossLackey]

Yeah, that was a murder.

 

[Patrol]

Context leading up to this event is important, especially in relation to the officers having to respond to a quickly evolving scenario.

Officers responded to a domestic violence call where the wife and a baby were injured. The suspect was armed with a knife, though it is not known whether when officers initially engaged if he had the knife or not. However, officers attempted to gain control of him with lower levels of force with no success. The confrontation was a "lengthy" one but we do not have specifics on what that means time wise yet; but coming from experience, fighting anyone for multiple minutes is absolutely draining on your energy.

Thus, we have a fleeing suspect at this point who resisted officers, showcased a propensity for violence, and is not following any lawful/reasonable commands. On top of that, you have two tired officers who could reasonably articulate the cause for deadly force. The issue, however, is the clear separation between the suspect and officers and the lack of a clear threat. It appears the suspect motions before he was shot, but just because he motioned does not mean he can be shot - unless the officers can articulate a reasonable basis that he may be armed.

But if he was armed, why did they attempt to stun him and/or use the shield on him? Or did he become armed while fleeing by grabbing a knife and/or other weapon?

 

[Catatafish]

Yep, murder.

 

[SliceSabre]

Not sure what's wrong with that statement. I think people in this thread and others have been losing faith in the system as more video comes out. Hell, the lack of prosecution against bank fraud in 2008 is alone enough to lose faith in the system.

That's what I'm referring. The police defense force poster seems to be implying that people aren't losing faith in the system. Hell some of us know better than to truth a damn thing the cops say. Anyone who has full faith and belief is either a cop, has cop family members, is a fool or is white.

These are the same people who turn a blind eye to the fact cops enforced racism back in the day by beating, jailing, killing and lynching blacks en masse. They have the nerve to then imply that people should have any faith in the system at all.

(And this is regardless of the fact the murder victim in this case is white.)

 

[thiscoldblack]

Wow.

 

[BronzeWolf]

Yes that's the point, but if he moves as consequence of being bit. It's possible to hear the gun shot after this, if he is close enough to the gun and the microphone far enough away.

This is all in reference to the guy talking about hand movements before the sound of gunshot, which is a flawed conclusion without the proper evidence and calculations.

I have edited my post adding the calculation that you suggested, it's not very difficult.

the arm movement thing is bothering me because I can't be certain if it's reaction or the dude going for something. I get the debate going on about it but I'm not quite convinced. That's why I want to see if more info comes out. I know if I was pointing my weapon at someone and they made a quick movement, I can't say I wouldn't do the same damn thing. It doesn't take long to react when you are already in position to use your weapon.

It's all about the evidence no? You can analyze the video and find by yourself

 

[Trojita]

Context leading up to this event is important, especially in relation to the officers having to respond to a quickly evolving scenario.

Officers responded to a domestic violence call where the wife and a baby were injured. The suspect was armed with a knife, though it is not known whether when officers initially engaged if he had the knife or not. However, officers attempted to gain control of him with lower levels of force with no success. The confrontation was a "lengthy" one but we do not have specifics on what that means time wise yet; but coming from experience, fighting anyone for multiple minutes is absolutely draining on your energy.

Thus, we have a fleeing suspect at this point who resisted officers, showcased a propensity for violence, and is not following any lawful/reasonable commands. On top of that, you have two tired officers who could reasonably articulate the cause for deadly force. The issue, however, is the clear separation between the suspect and officers and the lack of a clear threat. It appears the suspect motions before he was shot, but just because he motioned does not mean he can be shot - unless the officers can articulate a reasonable basis that he may be armed.

But if he was armed, why did they attempt to stun him and/or use the shield on him? Or did he become armed while fleeing by grabbing a knife and/or other weapon?

If the guy did harm an innocent woman and baby then he is a shit head, but being out of shape isn't a license to kill.

 

[A Human Becoming]

That's what I'm referring. The police defense force poster seems to be implying that people aren't losing faith in the system.

I didn't feel that was implied in the post but I might just be missing the undertone.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

Shot while hands up in the air.

Only in America.

You sure about that?

 

[Triggerhappytel]

If you watch closely it looks like after he puts his hands up he does indeed bring his hands down fast like he's reaching for something, he does this before the gunshots are heard. Watch it closer guys.

It's almost as though light travels faster than sound or something.

 

[Toxi]

Oh, I'm sorry for not knowing the speed of sound and how much slower sound is to light.

How the hell do people not know this anyway?

Have they never noticed how thunder happens after the lightning flash?

 

[SaganIsGOAT]

If you watch closely it looks like after he puts his hands up he does indeed bring his hands down fast like he's reaching for something, he does this before the gunshots are heard. Watch it closer guys.

How does speed of sound work

 

[Ray Wonder]

I have analyzed the video.

The Facts
From the maximum zoom and vantage point of the video, I would guess the microphone is positioned at no closer than 140 meters (Give by google maps estimations). According to research, average police officers take about 250 ms trigger reaction time. Sound travels at 340.29 m/s.

What should be the time difference between the perp's movement and the gunshot sound at the mike if he was shot after he moved?
At 140 m, the gunshot would be heard 410 ms after the officer completely pulled the trigger. If we add a faster than average reaction from the office at 200 ms, then the gunshot should be heard 610 ms after we see the perp's movement. Anything less than this difference would clearly indicate an unjustified gunshot.

Video Timestamps
Using Windows Movie Maker I was able to both slow down the video playback up to the milisecond.
01:51+500ms Perp starts to raise his arms
01:55+330ms Perp starts to lower his arms
01:55+600ms First gunshot is captured by the mic

Time difference: 270 ms

The conclusion
Of course an amateur video like this would be difficult to show with certainty the real timeline of events. A person reaction to a wound is very fast and it could be confused with a hostile movement from afar.

While my analysis is amateurish, everybody can do it with more advance tools that could a) clean the sound in order to pinpoint the 1st gunshot timestamp better and b) Do a better analysis of the distance between mic and the gun, the time difference is just way too small for the gunshot to have happened before the perp's moved his hands. EVEN with a camera right next to the gun, the officer would have to be 50% more accurate than average police officers in order to react in such a fast way to the shot.

This should be quoted on every page.

 

[Principate]

I have edited my post adding the calculation that you suggested, it's not very difficult.



It's all about the evidence no? You can analyze the video and find by yourself

No it's not (it's basic maths mechanics) I was just disagreeing with someone using sound to attempt timestamp movement of supersonic movements which someone implied and thought it was kind of silly.

 

[Patrol]

If the guy did harm an innocent woman and baby then he is a shit head, but being out of shape isn't a license to kill.

Even the best "in shape" officers will tire after multiple minutes of intense struggling/fighting. Again, it's one variable within the totality of circumstances, just like a smaller officer can reasonably articulate how his/her physical size put him/her at a great disadvantage when confronted with a combative/resistive subject.

 

[atr0cious]

Context leading up to this event is important, especially in relation to the officers having to respond to a quickly evolving scenario.

Officers responded to a domestic violence call where the wife and a baby were injured. The suspect was armed with a knife, though it is not known whether when officers initially engaged if he had the knife or not. However, officers attempted to gain control of him with lower levels of force with no success. The confrontation was a "lengthy" one but we do not have specifics on what that means time wise yet; but coming from experience, fighting anyone for multiple minutes is absolutely draining on your energy.

Thus, we have a fleeing suspect at this point who resisted officers, showcased a propensity for violence, and is not following any lawful/reasonable commands. On top of that, you have two tired officers who could reasonably articulate the cause for deadly force. The issue, however, is the clear separation between the suspect and officers and the lack of a clear threat. It appears the suspect motions before he was shot, but just because he motioned does not mean he can be shot - unless the officers can articulate a reasonable basis that he may be armed.

But if he was armed, why did they attempt to stun him and/or use the shield on him? Or did he become armed while fleeing by grabbing a knife and/or other weapon?

I like how even you can't put a good spin on this.

 

[sarcastor]

too bad they don't provide training and support for their actual sheriffs.

sorry was that too mean?

 

[T-Dot]

Context leading up to this event is important, especially in relation to the officers having to respond to a quickly evolving scenario.

Officers responded to a domestic violence call where the wife and a baby were injured. The suspect was armed with a knife, though it is not known whether when officers initially engaged if he had the knife or not. However, officers attempted to gain control of him with lower levels of force with no success. The confrontation was a "lengthy" one but we do not have specifics on what that means time wise yet; but coming from experience, fighting anyone for multiple minutes is absolutely draining on your energy.

Thus, we have a fleeing suspect at this point who resisted officers, showcased a propensity for violence, and is not following any lawful/reasonable commands. On top of that, you have two tired officers who could reasonably articulate the cause for deadly force. The issue, however, is the clear separation between the suspect and officers and the lack of a clear threat. It appears the suspect motions before he was shot, but just because he motioned does not mean he can be shot - unless the officers can articulate a reasonable basis that he may be armed.

But if he was armed, why did they attempt to stun him and/or use the shield on him? Or did he become armed while fleeing by grabbing a knife and/or other weapon?

Even if the man was a scumbag who was harming his family, that doesn't warrant him being murdered. Yes, he should have been apprehended. But murdered? No.

Criminals should face a trial and jail time, not automatic execution on the spot.

 

[BronzeWolf]

No it's not (it's basic maths mechanics) I was just disagreeing with someone using sound to attempt timestamp movement of supersonic movements which someone implied and was kind of silly.

"Basic Math Mecanics" are evidence, silly

 

[BossLackey]

Do people in this thread seriously think that he was moving his hand for any other reason than "fuck I just got shot"?!

His hands are up for several seconds.

Then he buckles forward and his hands come down and he falls to the ground. He was not reaching for anything. He didn't move his feet at all. He buckled because he was just shot.

You see it, then the report of the gun is heard a split second after, you know, because of how sound works.

Are there users on here that really don't get this?

I don't need math to know what I'm looking at.

 

[Principate]

Even the best "in shape" officers will tire after multiple minutes of intense struggling/fighting. Again, it's one variable within the totality of circumstances, just like a smaller officer can reasonably articulate how his/her physical size put him/her at a great disadvantage when confronted with a combative/resistive subject.

Unless the guy had a gun it's an awful call. Do none of these officers have any sort of hand-to-hand combat training or equipment to deal with none lethal combatants.

I suppose everything's just easier when it's shoot first ask questions later with no consequences. (I always found that quote ridiculously stupid when I heard it American movies didn't realise there were dumbasses out there that actually followed it).

"Basic Math Mecanics" are evidence, silly

I know that's why I mentioned it the first time.

 

[JDSN]

If those involved did in fact murder that person in cold blood than absolutely, throw the book at them, but these knee jerk reactions bring on virtual angry mob mentality and that isn't going to solve anything either. It just riles up emotions and anger. Analyze, probe for more information, talk about it. That's all fine and well. Police need to be held accountable or we lose faith in the system. That being said we are still going by a shaky phone video of the situation. If I have doubts others will as well and doubt means that it's POSSIBLE things aren't as we perceive them. Yes, the video looks fucked up for sure but I have questions, don't you? Until I find out more information I'm not going to join in with blind rage GAF on this one.

What virtual angry mob?

 

[Leatherface]

That's what I'm referring. The police defense force poster seems to be implying that people aren't losing faith in the system. Anyone who has full faith and belief is either a cop, has cop family members, is a fool or is white.

I was implying people ARE losing faith in the system, especially being so reactionary to every slice of video footage fed to us on the internet. I am not on the police defense force, trust me. I just choose not to jump on board with the angry mob opinion so quickly when I have doubts and questions.

What virtual angry mob?

Why does this confuse you?

 

[Akainu]

Disgusting and those tweets are pathetic.

Side note: Funny, I first remember learning about the speed of sound from a old cartoon. All I can remember was a guy was getting sued because he was supposed to set some fireworks off at a certain time for some event (which he did) but since the sound didn't reach the place until some time later the organizers were pissed. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

 

[BronzeWolf]

I was implying people ARE losing faith in the system, especially being so reactionary to every slice of video footage fed to us on the internet. I am not on the police defense force, trust me. I just choose not to jump on board with the angry mob opinion so quickly when I have doubts and questions.

Yeah, fuck those noise making reactionary people making a fuzz about cops killing citizens for no real reason!

/s

 

[SliceSabre]

I was implying people ARE losing faith in the system, especially being so reactionary to every slice of video footage fed to us on the internet. I am not on the police defense force, trust me. I just choose not to jump on board with the angry mob opinion so quickly when I have doubts and questions.



Why does this confuse you?

What's your PoliceOne forum username? Wanna see if you're posting this police defense force stuff over there too.

 

[Lil'DigiOp]

I was implying people ARE losing faith in the system, especially being so reactionary to every slice of video footage fed to us on the internet. I am not on the police defense force, trust me. I just choose not to jump on board with the angry mob opinion so quickly when I have doubts and questions.



Why does this confuse you?

Because nobody can understand literally what "doubts and questions" you could possibly have.

Please list them for discussion.

 

[Leatherface]

Yeah, fuck those noise making reactionary people making a fuzz about cops killing citizens for no real reason!

/s

yeah! because that's what I meant!

 

[Crud]

MURDER.

 

[soundahfekz]

Because nobody can understand literally what "doubts and questions" you could possibly have.

Please list them for discussion.

Feet to the heat

 

[Anjelus_]

Do people in this thread seriously think that he was moving his hand for any other reason than "fuck I just got shot"?!

His hands are up for several seconds.

Then he buckles forward and his hands come down and he falls to the ground. He was not reaching for anything. He didn't move his feet at all. He buckled because he was just shot.

You see it, then the report of the gun is heard a split second after, you know, because of how sound works.

Are there users on here that really don't get this?

I don't need math to know what I'm looking at.

Yea. Again, I try to be patient with some people here because not everyone has the same background and we have a lot of surprisingly younger posters here. Still, times like this are about when I leave the thread.

 

[Leatherface]

Because nobody can understand literally what "doubts and questions" you could possibly have.

Please list them for discussion.

I already posted what i had a problem with.

 

[T-Dot]

I was implying people ARE losing faith in the system, especially being so reactionary to every slice of video footage fed to us on the internet. I am not on the police defense force, trust me. I just choose not to jump on board with the angry mob opinion so quickly when I have doubts and questions.



Why does this confuse you?

Then explain what specific doubts and questions you have pertaining to the video. I'm curious, what exactly is it about the video that is causing you to play devils advocate?

 

[BigDes]

I already posted what i had a problem with.

You haven't.

You've said you have questions but haven't told us what they are.

 

[JDSN]

Why does this confuse you?

You are trying to characterize the reaction about this as irrational, its not only the shooting, its leaving the number of the network for people to complain at, I am only seeing one irrational party and its exactly the one that should be less irrational, while you demand that civilians act like models of wisdom when some are posting time stamps and explaining basic physics. So quit the vague Patroll-ish crap of questions to solve and write them down.