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VISUALS that Negatively Effect Gameplay (Modern Gaming)

JOEVIAL

Has a voluptuous plastic labia
Are we getting to a point of diminishing returns in regards to the visuals/graphics in games and how it effects the gameplay and design?

Specifically I am talking about visual clutter; too much stuff happening on the screen, which makes enemies difficult to see, which in turn effects the core design/gameplay. I recently experienced this playing CONTROL. The game is beautiful sure. Almost photo-real in some instances... but when you mix photo-real environments with the ridiculous amount of particle effects along with dozens of enemies on screen, it became kind of annoying to spot them and take them out.

Yes this could be a gameplay/design issue, but I believe part of the problem lies in the visuals being too complex. Which brings me to my original point... the point of diminishing returns.

I've experienced this in Modern Warfare also. Especially the Warzone mode. The map is so visually cluttered with detail and objects that it's incredibly difficult to see enemies, especially at distance. Some may claim this is "more realistic" which yeah... I guess it is... but I still think it hurts the gameplay. Anywho... what do you think GAF? Do you think this is a valid concern?
 
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Moogle11

Banned
I think that just varies by individual as some pay a lot more attention to graphical fidelity, frame rate etc. It’s definitely hit diminished returns for me As someone not super picky about that stuff.

Going from 8bit to 16bit was a nice wow factor for 2D games. Going to 3D games the next gen with N64/PS1 was a huge wow with a whole new type of gaming (for me who never had a pc anyway). Then the move to second generation 3D games with PS2/GC/Xbox had a lot of wow moments, as did last gen with the jump to HD.

This gen I’ve been wowed a lot less and when I have is more by better and more detailed art design than resolution, frame rates, particle effects, lighting etc. What I’ve seen of next gen games just looks slightly better to my non-picky eyes.

So there may not be diminished returns in advancement in tflops, but there has been in what I can personally see, appreciate and care about.
 

Ascend

Member
Graphics are overrated. What makes games unique as a medium is interactivity. Movies will always have better visuals & graphics, and they are designed to be looked at. Games are designed to be interacted with. That should be the primary focus.

Although games can incorporate the focus of other media, they are the most powerful when the interactive part is the strongest. If designed for it, realistic graphics in games can enhance the experience, but they really do not have to. The perfect example of an interactive experience with pretty much mediocre graphics having the capability to mean something, is a game called Loneliness;



It's flash, so you might have to download a local version to play it if your browser doesn't allow flash. It takes just a few minutes. Try it if you can spare the time.
 

OutRun88

Member
I agree for the most part. The problem is the visual fidelity just isn't there yet to warrant all the visual clutter.

EDIT: I'd suggest a title change. I feel it doesn't line up with the overall point of the OP message.
 
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sobaka770

Banned
At this point it's not about graphics, because for most games you have enough power to push a great looking image.

Now and for a couple of past years it's clear that art is much more important. A lot of games have crazy good graphics already, including CoD, Battlefield, GoW, Uncharted etc. However depending on a game type the art style can make it or break it.

Just look at the competitive games market. Overwatch with it's style and colors decimated the competition. The new Crucible from Amazon has good graphics but terrible art style, it's cluttered and messy. A lot of companies forget that competitive games are all about visibility and not special effects,
On the other hand, worlds like HZD are lush and full of special effects but once again the color scheme, the art, the cleanliness really make it a special treat for the eyes. Just imagine if those robo-dinosaurs weren't so white and contrasting with the environment?

CoD and BD to me are stuck between the want for latest and greatest graphics and needs of a competitive game. And I'd argue that since they need to sell a box for 60$ every year or 2 it's not a big deal for them because they have a market and can course correct, but moslty the quest for realism ends up in messy garbage at the end.
 

JOEVIAL

Has a voluptuous plastic labia
I think that just varies by individual as some pay a lot more attention to graphical fidelity, frame rate etc. It’s definitely hit diminished returns for me As someone not super picky about that stuff.

Going from 8bit to 16bit was a nice wow factor for 2D games. Going to 3D games the next gen with N64/PS1 was a huge wow with a whole new type of gaming (for me who never had a pc anyway). Then the move to second generation 3D games with PS2/GC/Xbox had a lot of wow moments, as did last gen with the jump to HD.

This gen I’ve been wowed a lot less and when I have is more by better and more detailed art design than resolution, frame rates, particle effects, lighting etc. What I’ve seen of next gen games just looks slightly better to my non-picky eyes.

So there may not be diminished returns in advancement in tflops, but there has been in what I can personally see, appreciate and care about.

Quite a few of the AAA games nowadays are going for the hyper-realistic look... which I think presents a serious issue.

People know what "real" looks like, so it's just easier to pick out what doesn't look real. It's getting to a point of the "uncanny valley" with some games. I felt that with the "RETURNAL" trailer recently. I mean the game looks great, but man there is just something about the facial animations that approaches that "uncanny valley." Like they are trying to make it too realistic... but they haven't quite hit the mark. Don't get me wrong, it still looks great, but it's just... a little off?
 

Aesius

Member
I think diminishing returns are kicking in, but we also need the increased hardware power to get VR where it needs to be. IMO the next generation of consoles after PS5/XSX will be heavily VR-focused. By that point there will be extreme diminishing returns for sitting 8-10 feet away from your TV, but the demand for more graphical horsepower for VR games will keep pushing things forward.
 

J4K

Member
Is anyone else noticing the diminishing returns on the threads about the diminishing returns on visuals?

Seriously, maybe I've been around too long, but I remember these conversations when people were trying to say it wasn't a big deal that the Wii had such crap hardware because "graphics can't get much better anyway."

We've seen massive improvement to visual quality and the stability of frame-rates during the PS4/XB1 era. Can't wait to see what comes next.
 

VN1X

Banned
I've experienced this in Modern Warfare also. Especially the Warzone mode. The map is so visually cluttered with detail and objects that it's incredibly difficult to see enemies, especially at distance. Some may claim this is "more realistic" which yeah... I guess it is... but I still think it hurts the gameplay. Anywho... what do you think GAF? Do you think this is a valid concern?
It's down to art style. Not so much graphical fidelity. I can guarantee you that CoD 2020 will be as impressive looking, visually, but far less cluttered because: Treyarch (although rumours are Sledgehammer had a big hand in this year's CoD as well so it might not ring true THAT much but time will tell).

I think diminishing returns are kicking in, but we also need the increased hardware power to get VR where it needs to be. IMO the next generation of consoles after PS5/XSX will be heavily VR-focused. By that point there will be extreme diminishing returns for sitting 8-10 feet away from your TV, but the demand for more graphical horsepower for VR games will keep pushing things forward.
Games still don't look photorealistic if you directly compare them to say a movie or the real world even. It will be decades before we reach that so there's still a very long way to go before we reach "diminshing returns".

That said, if there's an increase in focus on resolution and framerate then yeah we'll be 'stuck' with these types of visuals for quite some time as there's only so much horsepower available that allow you to have both a good looking game and have it run at high resolutions and framerates.
 

PSYGN

Member
I agree with you for next-gen and what we saw UE5 pull off. A lot of people can't tell the difference between 1080p and 4k anyway. And especially 4k to 8k. I think past a certain point the graphics are believable enough and only people with a trained critical eye would notice imperfections.

What needs catching up in this industry are facial and movement animations. You can have all the graphics in the world but if the mouth isn't moving to the words, or the eyes are glossing past you, it can break the immersion.
 
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JOEVIAL

Has a voluptuous plastic labia
Is anyone else noticing the diminishing returns on the threads about the diminishing returns on visuals?

Seriously, maybe I've been around too long, but I remember these conversations when people were trying to say it wasn't a big deal that the Wii had such crap hardware because "graphics can't get much better anyway."

We've seen massive improvement to visual quality and the stability of frame-rates during the PS4/XB1 era. Can't wait to see what comes next.

Sorry, I'm not really talking about visual fidelity. I'm talking about how visuals effect gameplay, and lately how it has negatively effected gameplay (IMO).

I'm all for making games look better. But I personally believe there comes a point where fancy visuals and effects can harm the gameplay.
 

Azelover

Titanic was called the Ship of Dreams, and it was. It really was.
I think the people that say no, probably misunderstand. It gives this impression that we have reached a point of no perceived evolution, and it's not that at all..

It's not that we have stopped evolving altogether, or that something like that will ever happen at any point. At least from my understanding diminishing returns is an active process we've been undergoing for generations. The impact of the visuals in relation to the computational evolution, has been slowly diminishing.

I don't think that can be argued. At least not from what I'm seeing.. but everybody has every right to see, and think whatever they want.
 

oldergamer

Member
NO. We are not.

When we see something that looks a step beyond launch titles, is the moment we will know the answer that question is "no".
 
Seriously, maybe I've been around too long, but I remember these conversations when people were trying to say it wasn't a big deal that the Wii had such crap hardware because "graphics can't get much better anyway."
To be fair Nintendo's games don't look that much better now than they did back then anyway.
 

geordiemp

Member
Are we getting to a point of diminishing returns in regards to the visuals/graphics in games and how it effects the gameplay and design?

Specifically I am talking about visual clutter; too much stuff happening on the screen, which makes enemies difficult to see, which in turn effects the core design/gameplay. I recently experienced this playing CONTROL. The game is beautiful sure. Almost photo-real in some instances... but when you mix photo-real environments with the ridiculous amount of particle effects along with dozens of enemies on screen, it became kind of annoying to spot them and take them out.

Yes this could be a gameplay/design issue, but I believe part of the problem lies in the visuals being too complex. Which brings me to my original point... the point of diminishing returns.

I've experienced this in Modern Warfare also. Especially the Warzone mode. The map is so visually cluttered with detail and objects that it's incredibly difficult to see enemies, especially at distance. Some may claim this is "more realistic" which yeah... I guess it is... but I still think it hurts the gameplay. Anywho... what do you think GAF? Do you think this is a valid concern?

I mainly agree on clutter especially in MP games, I want enemies clearly visible as its multiplayer.

But I dont mean effects, I just mean so much detail and stuff that enemies blend in sometimes. In Bo4 in some maps you can stand in a bush and are hard to see.

In single player devs can do what the hell they want.
 
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OutRun88

Member
I mainly agree on clutter especially in MP games, I want enemies clearly visible as its multiplayer.

But I dont mean effects, I just mean so much detail and stuff that enemies blend in sometimes. In Bo4 in some maps you can stand in a bush and are hard to see.

In single player devs can do what the hell they want.
I think it depends on the game.

In games like Hell Let Loose the ability to blend into a bush making yourself all but invisible makes sense and truly adds to the gameplay experience.

In games like Halo or Call of Duty I want the character models to stand out from the surrounding environment.
 

rofif

Banned
I feel we are seeing diminishing returns. I game since around 1995 and it's crazy how slow it goes now.
Uncharted 4, Death Stranding, God of War look so amazing. The picture quality is pristine and polished.
What can happen next is making it all more dynamic, details, maybe scope. But we are at a point when some ingame characters look Real Life like. Death Stranding is my prime example.
I mean fucking look at that. It's real time on a simple 200usd ps4. Not even pro. These are from my slim (minor DS spoiler but the shot is also in trailer)
05Qhd9J.png

Npa92FV.png

4IAESIc.png
 

Umbral

Member
I feel we are seeing diminishing returns. I game since around 1995 and it's crazy how slow it goes now.
Uncharted 4, Death Stranding, God of War look so amazing. The picture quality is pristine and polished.
What can happen next is making it all more dynamic, details, maybe scope. But we are at a point when some ingame characters look Real Life like. Death Stranding is my prime example.
I mean fucking look at that. It's real time on a simple 200usd ps4. Not even pro. These are from my slim (minor DS spoiler but the shot is also in trailer)
05Qhd9J.png

Npa92FV.png

4IAESIc.png
Death Stranding is probably the most visually stunning game I’ve ever seen. I couldn’t get enough of it. Kojima Productions are mad scientists.
 

Umbral

Member
I do agree with what you’re saying OP. There are games that get too noisy and it becomes a mess visually. You can’t tell up from down.

It takes restraint and a good eye and design sense to be able to nail realism while also making sure things are readable to a player. I think we’re gonna see a lot of games go for density this gen and when it’s not handled well, it‘s going to result in a lot of confusion for players. I can see objective markers and arrows becoming even more common, which funny enough, add even more clutter to the screen.
 

brian0057

Banned
Terrible lighting can kill an otherwise excellent stealth game.
This is what makes the PS360 version of Splinter Cell: Double Agent a pain to go through (even though I still love the game).
Areas that visually are in darkness don't count as hiding spots but other neon bright areas tell you you're hidden... for some reason.
That's why I prefer the GCBOX2 version.
 

Orta

Banned
Ori was quite cluttered at times. Beautiful clutter mind, but clutter nonetheless.

Same can be said of the Ratchet & Clank PS5 demo we saw the other day, at times I didn't know where to look, especially when he was returning fire at with enemies.

Ratchet-Clank-Rift-Apart-Announcement-Trailer-PS5-mkv-snapshot-01-42-502.jpg
 
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I know what you mean OP, but I'm so trained to spot hand holds, visual signifiers, and other "gamey elements" from years of gaming I rarely feel lost even as extraneous detail piles on over the gens.

On tangent, would much rather devs increase interactivity/complex physics. Visual noise no longer impresses me.
 

Tesseract

Banned
more visdata in competitive shooters makes me a better player, not less

each their own, i like sensory bombardment
 

JOEVIAL

Has a voluptuous plastic labia
I think it depends on the game.

In games like Hell Let Loose the ability to blend into a bush making yourself all but invisible makes sense and truly adds to the gameplay experience.

In games like Halo or Call of Duty I want the character models to stand out from the surrounding environment.

True. A game like SQUAD is centered around realism, and man is it hard to see people in that game. The camo uniforms and such actually work like they do in real life. Again... this is a good thing for folks that like realism. Maybe it's just not my thing?
 
I feel this way about particle effects. Other than small atmospheric stuff like dust particles idk why games love just having a million and a half particle effect on screen. The new ratchet and clank was like that, so much on screen going on I couldnt even full appreciate the art direction.
 

Helscream

Banned
"Yo fool I heard you like some Chromatic Aberration. So we hooked you up and put some Chromatic Aberration inside yo Chromatic Aberration so you can Chormatically Abberate while you Abberately Chromaticize!!!" - Xzibit

Aint nothing worse than playing a game with a grotesquely, gluttonous helping of Chromatic Aberration. Either use a small amount, or dont use it at all. Can make the most amazing looking game look like a fuzzy goddamn headache.
 
God of War 2018 is a prime example.
The game’s so concerned with looking pretty that it compromises visual clarity of the mechanics. Matthewmatosis explains it very well here:

 

NeoIkaruGAF

Gold Member
Yes, but it’s mostly a design problem.

The battles in Ori and the Will of the Wisps can get literally unreadable with all the light effects going on on the screen. Visual clutter isn’t a consequence of tech, but of how the tech is implemented. Yeah, maybe for war games one could argue that on a real battlefield it can be hell to spot the enemy, so a cluttered, poorly readable screen is as realistic as it gets. But a game should not go for that.
 

Xenon

Member
Funny you bring up Remedy because Quantum Break is the perfect example of this. for me. The reality glitched were to close to computer glitches to me so it was more annoying than anything. It was impressive as an effect but killed my enjoyment of the game's visuals. I wish the would just go back to making kick ass action games instead of focusing on gimmicks.
 
S

SLoWMoTIoN

Unconfirmed Member
Not sure if this applies but ANY game where shit turns red/heavy fucking pounding noises or hides the entire screen when my character is dying is fucking shit. Granted this usually happens in the beginning of a game before I get good enough so that this doesn't affect me but still. Shit is annoying and I hate it!
TmThdTl.jpg
 
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Mato

Member
I agree with this. Players have been conditioned to perceive photorealism or higher visual complexity as an absolute improvement. I would argue that games that have a simplistic look provide an almost different type of experience, one that isn't at all inferior to the other kind.
 

Alx

Member
Ori was quite cluttered at times. Beautiful clutter mind, but clutter nonetheless.

Same can be said of the Ratchet & Clank PS5 demo we saw the other day, at times I didn't know where to look, especially when he was returning fire at with enemies.

Ratchet-Clank-Rift-Apart-Announcement-Trailer-PS5-mkv-snapshot-01-42-502.jpg

Yeah that's the only thing that bothered me with the Ratchet demo, it was too busy visually and all those fireworks didn't help making the game easy to watch.
Such issue isn't really new though, I remember complaining about the first Gears of War because all those complex textures made it harder to spot the interactive items or collectables in a level.
But in general artistic design is more to blame than technology, there were similar concerns of visibility with 16 bits games where sprites could be lost in complex backgrounds, unless you use clever palette tricks to make them stand out. Of course aiming at realism doesn't help, because in real life it's easy to lose sight of stuff in messy environments too.
 

cireza

Banned
I hate it when the screen is filled with stupid particle effects and stuff, I prefer a clean picture, a smooth framerate. Arcade style.

You see this all the time in PS exclusives by the way (not only there, but for example, Ghost of Tsu is filled with effects).
 
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Dontero

Banned
Path of Exile in recent years.

They add more and more mechanics to game where you are supposed to dodge stuff but at the sime time they add more and more crap on screen so most of the time you don't even know what is happening on screen.
 

ZywyPL

Banned
Agree, sometimes the games ore overwhelmed by visual effects to the point that you don't know WTF is actually going on. However, overdone visual effect don't bother me nowhere near as much as pop-up text, it started with MMOs, where it actually had its reasons, but we see more and more games applying it. I think CoD4/MW2 is the game which lead the way, then we got games like The Division or Diablo 3 for instance, where it's like playing Word or Notepad, like for real, I don't need to see how much DMG/XP/$ etc. each individual hit gives...
 

Relativ9

Member
I definitely felt like that with the trailer of the one-man FPS game that MS opened their showcase with. So much wind, fog, particle effects, and volumetric lighting thrown on the screen at the same time that you couldn't see shit.

I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason he did that was to hide low-res textures and low poly models. R&C also seemed to have some of the same issues, but that was mostly when killing monsters. Same can be said for a lot of games recently (BF5).
 
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Knot3D

Member
No love from me for game engines which cause nausea to quite a few gamers.
Despite tweaks to settings like FOV, ingame camera settings, V-sync etc,, some games
just cause health problems regardless of those tweaks.

HL2 & the Source engine
MGS GZ / TPP & the Fox engine
 
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