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Vocal support for universal coverage is on the rise among Democrats in Congress

rjinaz

Member
Feb 7, 2012
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Wait, someone is arguing that Trump would be willing to support a single-payer bill? lol

Trump will never act in any way that works against the interest of money. There is big money for insurance companies. Let's be real. I don't care what he used to say when he had no power, Trump has proven he just says shit so that people will like him and follow him on twitter but doesn't actually go through with it in the end. He's a con man. Nevermind we're talking about Republicans lol.

This conversation is ridiculous and ignores reality.
 

badcrumble

Member
May 12, 2006
26,792
5
0
The problem you have is that among people who do no what it is and don't have a problem w/ it in theory, it's too big of an infrastructure change to get to based on where we currently are.

Health Care is 1/6th of the modern economy, and trying to tear down private infrastructure and establish public infrastructure all at once would be devastating to it.

If you want to do Single Payer as your long term goal, you need to backdoor it via the Public Option.

There's zero support from this from the party infrastructure because even w/ a party majority in congress there's no majority to pass single-payer.

If you try and go full-blast on passing it you'll run into the same issues the GOP just did w/ Obamacare repeal- the moderates will abandon you.

Sometimes the country's moral sense on an issue shifts rapidly and politicians are forced to follow. Look at the civil rights struggle. Look at gay marriage. Sometimes doors that were firmly shut 10 or 25 years ago can open very suddenly.
 

kirblar

Member
Oct 9, 2010
63,315
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Sometimes the country's moral sense on an issue shifts rapidly and politicians are forced to follow. Look at the civil rights struggle. Look at gay marriage. Sometimes doors that were firmly shut 10 or 25 years ago can open very suddenly.
UHC is not one of those issue, in large part because the people who are most likely to vote already have health coverage.

The employment-based HC system combined w/ Medicare for retirees and the disabled warps everything.
 

Quixzlizx

Member
Jul 6, 2006
9,922
0
0
People naive enough to think Trump would push through single-payer are probably the same people blasted with the targeted "Hillary is the neoliberal devil; don't bother voting" social media advertising.

Trump is an empty suit who can, at best, put his ignorant support behind whatever bill Ryan and McConnell are currently pushing.
 

DontBeThatGuy

Member
Oct 15, 2014
16,472
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345
I would be grateful and it would likely earn Republicans my vote for many years since they would be the ones to do what the Democrats could not.

What the hell are you even talking about? If UHC gets passed, it's gonna be because of Democrats voting en mass to make it happen, just like 99% of Democrats supported the public option that all Republicans (and a Lieberman) sabotaged. It would have a shitload of Republican hold outs.
 

kirblar

Member
Oct 9, 2010
63,315
1
860
People naive enough to think Trump would push through single-payer are probably the same people blasted with the targeted "Hillary is the neoliberal devil; don't bother voting" social media advertising.

Trump is an empty suit who can, at best, put his ignorant support behind whatever bill Ryan and McConnell are currently pushing.
It's a larger lesson that people's nominal support for issues won't matter if they're not issues that they're basing their votes on.
 

rjinaz

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Feb 7, 2012
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What the hell are you even talking about? If UHC gets passed, it's gonna be because of Democrats voting en mass to make it happen, just like 99% of Democrats supported the public option that all Republicans (and a Lieberman) sabotaged. It would have a shitload of Republican hold outs.

Some see the Republicans as Democrats and Democrats as the Republicans. It's very bizarre. Like they ignore the worst of the party they support and steal the best things from the other party.
 

Tarydax

Banned
Jan 28, 2015
861
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http://ijr.com/2016/02/537107-5-times-donald-trump-praised-socialized-healthcare/
You don't think there's a chance Trump could flip on it?

Party lines are a bitch.

Uh, are you seriously quoting something he said a year ago? You know by now that he's a world class bullshitter, right? He said he wouldn't touch things like Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid, but then he turned around and actually did (or at least tried to). There is no world where he so much as looks at single payer. He would have to be even dumber than we know him to be to consider single payer when his party has control over every branch of government. And if you know anything at all about the Republican Party you should know that they'll never support it.

You might as well cite that time he held up a gay pride flag as evidence that he actually cares about the LGBT community.

No they havnt . If that were the case, we would have gotten it during the Obama era when we had the Majority.

You clearly don't remember Joe Lieberman.
 

Toxi

Banned
May 29, 2013
41,538
1
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What the hell are you even talking about? If UHC gets passed, it's gonna be because of Democrats voting en mass to make it happen, just like 99% of Democrats supported the public option that all Republicans (and a Lieberman) sabotaged. It would have a shitload of Republican hold outs.
It's diablos991.
 

DontBeThatGuy

Member
Oct 15, 2014
16,472
1
345
Nothing Trump in the past on health care actually matters. He has no meaningful knowledge, is a narcissist with very little empathy and no willingness to actually put in the work. He's in for the photo ops, that adoring salutes of his pathetic base, and as much corruption as the GOP allows. (so all of it)
 

googleplex

Member
Jun 7, 2010
9,069
1
0
No they havnt . If that were the case, we would have gotten it during the Obama era when we had the Majority.

This bullshit myth needs to die! Universal Health care would have never passed. Fucking period! Hillary Clinton almost died trying to make it work in the 1990 but unfortunately failed.

Socialized medicine of any type has been demonized to the American publoc by the Republicans for over 40 years. So much so that it took a small albeit flawed step in the right direction with Obamacare to convince Americans that we can do better then the free market. And Obama expended almost all of his political capital getting they through.
 

diablos991

Can’t stump the diablos
Jun 15, 2013
8,802
1,319
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This bullshit myth needs to die! Universal Health care would have never passed. Fucking period! Hillary Clinton almost died trying to make it work in the 1990 but unfortunately failed.

Socialized medicine of any type has been demonized to the American publoc by the Republicans for over 40 years. So much so that it took a small albeit flawed step in the right direction with Obamacare to convince Americans that we can do better then the free market. And Obama expended almost all of his political capital getting they through.

Many years ago healthcare was so cheap that universal healthcare was a ridiculous proposition.

Now that healthcare is so damned expensive (partially due to Obamacare) the universal option sounds more appealing since it's likely the same as the average American pays today.

Obamacare didn't Prime Americans for universal healthcare by giving a taste of something wonderful, it primed the middle class into action by fucking them over hard.

I don't think fucking over the middle class is a step in the right direction. Maybe it was necessary in the long run but it's not something to glorify.
 

Toxi

Banned
May 29, 2013
41,538
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Many years ago healthcare was so cheap that universal healthcare was a ridiculous proposition.

Now that healthcare is so damned expensive (partially due to Obamacare) the universal option sounds more appealing since it's likely the same as the average American pays today.
LOL This level of spin is incredible.
 

entremet

Member
Dec 6, 2008
85,705
383
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Would be way better than Obamacare.

No idea how health care, denying it, became a political issue. It's fucking baffling.
 

Wet Bloodfart

Banned
May 13, 2016
693
0
0
Nashville, TN
Many years ago healthcare was so cheap that universal healthcare was a ridiculous proposition.

Now that healthcare is so damned expensive (partially due to Obamacare) the universal option sounds more appealing since it's likely the same as the average American pays today.

Obamacare didn't Prime Americans for universal healthcare by giving a taste of something wonderful, it primed the middle class into action by fucking them over hard.

I don't think fucking over the middle class is a step in the right direction. Maybe it was necessary in the long run but it's not something to glorify.

There is not enough dense motherfucker image memes
 

Ithil

Member
Apr 19, 2011
41,089
1
0
No they havnt . If that were the case, we would have gotten it during the Obama era when we had the Majority.

It's not that simple, dude. For starters, they needed 60 votes to pass the ACA in the Senate, not 51, requiring concessions. Obama also tried to be an actual politician and work across the aisle, mistaking the Republicans for fellow politicians as opposed to repulsive and moral-free mole creatures disguised as humans.

The idea was the ACA would lead to UHC over time. The Republicans have repeatedly been sabotaging the ACA from the start, and while it's been in operation.
 

rjinaz

Member
Feb 7, 2012
17,934
2
700
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LOL This level of spin is incredible.

Here are the Republicans trying to pass the most diabolical healthplans imaginable, right now. The same party that spent years sabotaging the current plan that they even came up with, which of course drove up the costs of it. The same party that their leader just said today he has always said just to starve the plan out and wants to do that now which will in turn make things multiple times worse for costs. This party somehow is going to be responsible for bringing UHC. They are going to be the heroes.

I can't.
 

googleplex

Member
Jun 7, 2010
9,069
1
0
LOL This level of spin is incredible.

LOL indeed! But it's diablos991. Everything he post is bullshit wrapped in a troll.

The ideal that Healthcare was ever cheap or accessible is laughable to the point of being insulting
 

Barzul

Member
Jun 8, 2013
12,617
0
0
Many years ago healthcare was so cheap that universal healthcare was a ridiculous proposition.

Now that healthcare is so damned expensive (partially due to Obamacare) the universal option sounds more appealing since it's likely the same as the average American pays today.

Obamacare didn't Prime Americans for universal healthcare by giving a taste of something wonderful, it primed the middle class into action by fucking them over hard.

I don't think fucking over the middle class is a step in the right direction. Maybe it was necessary in the long run but it's not something to glorify.

Just what the hell are you on about? You can with a straight face say that the system that existed before Obamacare was better. Preexisting condition based denials of coverage et al? You would reward Republicans for fighting against a thing you supposedly want (universal healthcare)? How is that a rational train of thought?
 

Big Baybee

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Sep 15, 2009
12,296
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0
Many years ago healthcare was so cheap that universal healthcare was a ridiculous proposition.

Now that healthcare is so damned expensive (partially due to Obamacare) the universal option sounds more appealing since it's likely the same as the average American pays today.

Obamacare didn't Prime Americans for universal healthcare by giving a taste of something wonderful, it primed the middle class into action by fucking them over hard.

I don't think fucking over the middle class is a step in the right direction. Maybe it was necessary in the long run but it's not something to glorify.
What in the world....?
 

legacyzero

Banned
Feb 20, 2011
27,932
306
1,030
Nebraska
www.youtube.com
This bullshit myth needs to die! Universal Health care would have never passed. Fucking period! Hillary Clinton almost died trying to make it work in the 1990 but unfortunately failed.

Socialized medicine of any type has been demonized to the American publoc by the Republicans for over 40 years. So much so that it took a small albeit flawed step in the right direction with Obamacare to convince Americans that we can do better then the free market. And Obama expended almost all of his political capital getting they through.
Before coming out against it in 2016. Huh
"Something that will NEVER Ever come to pass"
"Higher taxes"
Yep. And "SOCIALISM!!" God I remember when the GOP labeled Obama a "Socialist". 😂😂😂😂
 

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
Nov 24, 2012
8,436
234
675
munich
I don't think a universal healthcare system would work with the current medical infrastructure in place in the US.
It would take years of structural reform before such a system could work in the US.
 

Pagusas

Elden Member
Jun 9, 2006
13,179
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Prosper, Tx
I don't think a universal healthcare system would work with the current medical infrastructure in place in the US.
It would take years of structural reform before such a system could work in the US.

Thats my fear. That and seeing my taxes go through the roof. I wonder if their is a hybrid system that could ever work where the goverment does some form of deductable coverage that allows the third party insurers to still exist.
 

kirblar

Member
Oct 9, 2010
63,315
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I don't think a universal healthcare system would work with the current medical infrastructure in place in the US.
It would take years of structural reform before such a system could work in the US.
You can get Universal Healthcare easily by subsidizing insurance costs.

A single unified single payer system, on the other hand, we're nowhere near ready for.
Thats my fear. That and seeing my taxes go through the roof. I wonder if their is a hybrid system that could ever work where the goverment does some form of deductable coverage that allows the third party insurers to still exist.
Multi-payer universal systems are in place in many other western countries.
 

Pagusas

Elden Member
Jun 9, 2006
13,179
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You can get Universal Healthcare easily by subsidizing insurance costs.

A single unified single payer system, on the other hand, we're nowhere near ready for.

Multi-payer universal systems are in place in many other western countries.

Cool, would love to read up on them, do you know any good example countries?

Excuses excuses.

Healthcare is hard...
 

Frozenprince

Banned
Sep 26, 2013
31,941
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Excuses excuses.
It's a legitimate reason. It's something that needs to be addressed and fixed. But it's going to be a Herculean effort.

College payment reform is the same boat. Our current system isn't built for it. You need to tear it all down and start from scratch.

It's a real excuse for a real reason. I get that single payer should be the goal. It should. It's my goal.

But you NEED to break the entire system down tp make it work. If they just slap it over our exist infrastructure it will fail.
 

Balphon

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Feb 24, 2010
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0
Thats my fear. That and seeing my taxes go through the roof. I wonder if their is a hybrid system that could ever work where the goverment does some form of deductable coverage that allows the third party insurers to still exist.

It's called Germany.
 

Steel

Banned
Jun 20, 2013
19,664
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Thats my fear. That and seeing my taxes go through the roof. I wonder if their is a hybrid system that could ever work where the goverment does some form of deductable coverage that allows the third party insurers to still exist.

Public Option with insurance companies still intact, or Netherlands or Switzerland's private insurance model would work without any issue and these systems are better than most single payer systems.

It's called Germany.

Most of Europe, honestly.
 

kirblar

Member
Oct 9, 2010
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Cool, would love to read up on them, do you know any good example countries?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/countries/models.html

The Bismarck Model

Named for the Prussian Chancellor Otto von Bismarck, who invented the welfare state as part of the unification of Germany in the 19th century. Despite its European heritage, this system of providing health care would look fairly familiar to Americans. It uses an insurance system -- the insurers are called "sickness funds" -- usually financed jointly by employers and employees through payroll deduction.

Unlike the U.S. insurance industry, though, Bismarck-type health insurance plans have to cover everybody, and they don't make a profit. Doctors and hospitals tend to be private in Bismarck countries; Japan has more private hospitals than the U.S. Although this is a multi-payer model -- Germany has about 240 different funds -- tight regulation gives government much of the cost-control clout that the single-payer Beveridge Model provides.

The Bismarck model is found in Germany, of course, and France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Japan, Switzerland, and, to a degree, in Latin America.
The US is a bizarro outlier that matches no one else because our employment-based system is a complete accident based on terrible WWII era economic policy that turned into a social norm.

Literally no other country has had this hurdle to overcome when implementing a system.
 

Saganator

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Jun 7, 2013
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Denver
Many years ago healthcare was so cheap that universal healthcare was a ridiculous proposition.

Now that healthcare is so damned expensive (partially due to Obamacare) the universal option sounds more appealing since it's likely the same as the average American pays today.

WOW. I normally don't jump on the diablos dog piles, but this such a steaming pile of BULLSHIT I can't just let it go like most of your posts.

http://ritholtz.com/2010/12/u-s-health-care-costs-since-1980/

You're either pumped so full of shit it's coming out of your ears or you just flat out LIE and hope people will believe it.
 

gutter_trash

Banned
Feb 4, 2005
43,878
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0
Universal Healthcare is also good for employers and good for the economy.

The insurance industry deserves a painful blow
 

badcrumble

Member
May 12, 2006
26,792
5
0
UHC is not one of those issue, in large part because the people who are most likely to vote already have health coverage.

The employment-based HC system combined w/ Medicare for retirees and the disabled warps everything.
To work with the frame you've laid out here, are the majority of likely voters gay or black, and is that the reason why the civil rights act passed or why gay marriage became supported by the majority? 🤔
 

emag

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Apr 26, 2012
3,355
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Cool, would love to read up on them, do you know any good example countries?

How about Medicare Part C (and D) right here in the USA?

Fire example, my ~70 year old father gets "free" Medicare coverage. He pays a small monthly fee to "upgrade" to Kaiser Permanente's HMO option (the government diverts his Medicare premiums to KP as well). There's no reason a Medicare Part C equivalent wouldn't work with "Medicare for all".
 

jerry113

Banned
May 4, 2012
4,611
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edit: Ah I fucked up my post guys. I meant to say that if the Republicans genuinely went all-in on supporting universal healthcare, only then would I be more open to the notion of switching from Democrat to Republican. Because right now it literally looks like good vs. evil.

Lack of access to affordable healthcare is the biggest long-term malady facing the American people. It's the biggest problem with America right now.
 

kirblar

Member
Oct 9, 2010
63,315
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To work with the frame you've laid out here, are the majority of likely voters gay or black, and is that the reason why the civil rights act passed or why gay marriage became supported by the majority? ��
You're comparing apples to oranges.

Allowing black people to vote or gay people to marry is not the same to many voters as expanding welfare benefits. The former aren't perceived as resulting in a raise on someone's taxes. The latter is.
How about Medicare Part C (and D) right here in the USA?

Fire example, my ~70 year old father gets "free" Medicare coverage. He pays a small monthly fee to "upgrade" to Kaiser Permanente's HMO option (the government diverts his Medicare premiums to KP as well). There's no reason a Medicare Part C equivalent wouldn't work with "Medicare for all".
The problem w/ selling Medicare for all is that many people are happy w/ their employer-based coverage and the AARP crowd doesn't want to share their Medicare.
 

legacyzero

Banned
Feb 20, 2011
27,932
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It's a legitimate reason. It's something that needs to be addressed and fixed. But it's going to be a Herculean effort.

College payment reform is the same boat. Our current system isn't built for it. You need to tear it all down and start from scratch.

It's a real excuse for a real reason. I get that single payer should be the goal. It should. It's my goal.

But you NEED to break the entire system down tp make it work. If they just slap it over our exist infrastructure it will fail.
Right and I agree. Better an excuse of apprehension than an excuse for not doing it
 
Jun 22, 2012
9,121
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Public Option with insurance companies still intact, or Netherlands or Switzerland's private insurance model would work without any issue and these systems are better than most single payer systems.



Most of Europe, honestly.

Switzerland and Netherlands have the most expensive healthcare system after the US.