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War on Cartels? Large Mormon family slaughtered, raped, burned alive in Sonora, Trump responds.

NickFire

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I agree but that's why im in favor of takling the issues through legalization and turning into a healthcare issue rather than a criminal issue. There are also other approaches the US (or any other country with drug addiction problems) could apply without punishing the addicts because the research in the psychological aspects of addiction is already mature. There are many venues other than criminal ones but for that legalization and regulation should first be taken seriously.


I know but no solution right now is ideal, all of them have issues. But, even though the black market would not completely disappear, it will severely weaken it. In the end most people who are given the choice to buy a legal and quality product over an illegal and low quality one choose the former option for obvious reasons. Also providing quality and tested drugs could actually diminish health incidents since with illegal drugs you never really know or are really informed of what you're taking. Also, most illegal drugs are less dangerous than stuff like alcohol. So, from the options available legalization and regulation is the one that makes more sense for me. Keeping the status quo is perpetuating the madness and a war will just generate more of this madness and kill many more innocent people.
Could you meet in the middle and start with decriminalizing, so that addicts are treated as suffering from health issues as long as they aren't committing crimes to afford the drugs? That would accomplish much of what you are advocating for, without setting up shops right away. I could get behind that, but I'm not at a point where I think cocaine and heroin are as harmless as weed.
 

autoduelist

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The Cartels are more powerful than the Mexican Military. They are no joke. Most Americans can't comprehend that. Imagine, in America, a group of people so powerful that they would drive through and take over cities, take over jails, release their own, and the military would be powerless to stop them. Even if you were to take away a large source of their income (through the legalization of drugs), they have diversified into legitimate businesses. I saw Cartel members defending resorts in Mexico because...they own the resorts. They started in drugs but now they have a hand in almost everything. I don't even know how you can stop them at this point. It would be harder than annihilating a countries entire army. I'm anti-war, I'm for pulling out of the middle east, but the cartels are close to home, they kill Americans, and they bring drugs into our own country. This should be a priority over the middle east in my opinion. I hope Trump does something about them, but it could escalate into a situation where a lot more Americans, especially the ones living on or close to the US-Mexico border, will be massacred and made an example out of.
As with any problem left to fester and grow for decades, nobody will like the solution.
 

Gashtronomy

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The Cartels are more powerful than the Mexican Military. They are no joke. Most Americans can't comprehend that. Imagine, in America, a group of people so powerful that they would drive through and take over cities, take over jails, release their own, and the military would be powerless to stop them. Even if you were to take away a large source of their income (through the legalization of drugs), they have diversified into legitimate businesses. I saw Cartel members defending resorts in Mexico because...they own the resorts. They started in drugs but now they have a hand in almost everything. I don't even know how you can stop them at this point. It would be harder than annihilating a countries entire army. I'm anti-war, I'm for pulling out of the middle east, but the cartels are close to home, they kill Americans, and they bring drugs into our own country. This should be a priority over the middle east in my opinion. I hope Trump does something about them, but it could escalate into a situation where a lot more Americans, especially the ones living on or close to the US-Mexico border, will be massacred and made an example out of.
Good points, well presented. To kill the snake though, you cut off the head. The head of the cartels is and always will be; drugs. Once the drug money goes and the strangle-hold on business releases, combined with some well thought-out business incentives from the Mexican government, you could turn the cartel-owned 'smaller enterprises' into privately owned companies. We've seen in the past how gangs will swap swords for pens, If the income is easier to come by.

Cutting off the drug supply or flooding the country completely, is the first port of call. If that fails, then put a wall up and go from there.


I don't believe that the cartels would roll en-masse into the southern state of America. They aren't stupid.
 

Cybrwzrd

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I hope Trump does something about them, but it could escalate into a situation where a lot more Americans, especially the ones living on or close to the US-Mexico border, will be massacred and made an example out of.
I would see that working out very poorly for Mexico if cross border violence ramped up.
 
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crowbrow

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Could you meet in the middle and start with decriminalizing, so that addicts are treated as suffering from health issues as long as they aren't committing crimes to afford the drugs? That would accomplish much of what you are advocating for, without setting up shops right away. I could get behind that, but I'm not at a point where I think cocaine and heroin are as harmless as weed.
Sure, the only problem i see with decriminalization is that there's still no way to guarantee quality product and information for the user which you could achieve with proper regulation. So there's still a health problem there that could be improved by more controllable means by i do Support decriminalization as a good first step like they did in Portugal.
 

NickFire

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Sure, the only problem i see with decriminalization is that there's still no way to guarantee quality product and information for the user which you could achieve with proper regulation. So there's still a health problem there that could be improved by more controllable means by i do Support decriminalization as a good first step like they did in Portugal.
Fair point. But honestly, do you think reputable labeling will prevent teenagers from overdosing at HS parties? I don't.
 
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crowbrow

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Fair point. But honestly, do you think reputable labeling will prevent teenagers from overdosing at HS parties? I don't.
I mean i have taken drugs like ecstasy at parties without knowing what is in there. If you could have the contents of an ecstasy pill you could control much better how it will affect you and take proper precautions. Even now in electronic festivals in Europe some places offer lab kits to test what exactly is in the drugs you're taking and many people prefer to do that rather than jump blindly on something that could kill or maim you .
 
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Alcibiades

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I would only support U. S. military involvement if we remove all laws prohibiting recreational drug use of any kind, including heroine, cocaine, meth, etc...

Once you've removed that money pipeline to the cartels, work in tandem with the less corrupt factions of the Mexican military to clean up towns one at a time, starting in Northern Mexico along the U. S. border.
 

NickFire

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I mean i have taken drugs like ecstasy at parties without knowing what is in there. If you could have the contents of an ecstasy pill you could control much better how it will affect you and take proper precaussions. Even now in electronic festivals in Europe some places offer lab kits to test what exactly is in the drugs you're taking and many people prefer to do that rather than jump blindly on something that could kill or maim you .
That's a really fair point in favor of your idea actually. I tend to doubt that lives saved would equal or exceed lives lost by making access to hard drugs easier, but I cannot deny that a lot of people take y and believe they are taking x. I'm not swayed yet, but would certainly agree it makes sense to decriminalize and then conduct real studies into whether society benefits more or less from the legalize step.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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Counterpoint to legalization and regulation: if the cartels are currently in bed with the Mexican gov't, how do you propose that you keep them out of the new "legitimate" drug trade? When you want to make cocaine so cheap that it "runs the cartels out of business", who will provide this cocaine?

From my perspective, the only outcome to legalizing would be empowering and legitimizing criminal organizations and ensuring their place in the gov't bureaucracy.

We should increase the punishment for trafficking which directly targets the organizations making their money off it.
 

NickFire

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Counterpoint to legalization and regulation: if the cartels are currently in bed with the Mexican gov't, how do you propose that you keep them out of the new "legitimate" drug trade? When you want to make cocaine so cheap that it "runs the cartels out of business", who will provide this cocaine?

From my perspective, the only outcome to legalizing would be empowering and legitimizing criminal organizations and ensuring their place in the gov't bureaucracy.

We should increase the punishment for trafficking which directly targets the organizations making their money off it.
I'm not calling for, nor would I support these terrorists being pardoned for their savage murders and other crimes against humanity. But I wouldn't oppose a proposal just because it lets bad guys become law abiding bad guys.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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I'm not calling for, nor would I support these terrorists being pardoned for their savage murders and other crimes against humanity. But I wouldn't oppose a proposal just because it lets bad guys become law abiding bad guys.
Well then what would be the positive outcome? You'd perhaps eradicate the dumbest and most violent of the drug traffickers, but it would come at the cost of opening the door for the shrewd drug traffickers to literally become an arm of the gov't. Doesn't seem smart to me.

If Mexico's predicament is in large part due to the corruption, why invite more corruption? It could be drugs or alcohol or rare Star Wars cards. The exact trade doesn't matter so much as the illicit traders involved in it. We open the door to the sort of people who were willing to skirt the law to make a buck and they will do exactly that from their new political/bureaucratic positions.
 
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desertdroog

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Cartel members are already in the U.S., which is how trafficking is occurring. Talking about decriminalization of drugs is mental masturbation, as you will not see heroin or cocaine decriminalized in the U.S. like you are seeing Marijuana.

Here is a big sticking point on trying to legitimize the cartels, you cannot make human trafficking legal. That is a big cash cow for them as well outside of the drugs.

Fort Huachuca in Sierra Vista, Az does more than train our military intelligence, they are also involved in monitoring the cartels on this side of the border. If the cartels decide to heat up the U.S. side of the border, you will see some scorched Earth hellfire rain down in Mexico so fast, the Mexican government will be grovelling and asking forgiveness for not containing the shit on their side.

The Mexican Government is in deep with the cartels and it is a sad state that they are mired in the very same corruption. There are good members of the Mexican law enforcement and military, but they are slowly being taken over via graft and violence.
 

NickFire

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Well then what would be the positive outcome? You'd perhaps eradicate the dumbest and most violent of the drug traffickers, but it would come at the cost of opening the door for the shrewd drug traffickers to literally become an arm of the gov't. Doesn't seem smart to me.

If Mexico's predicament is in large part due to the corruption, why invite more corruption? It could be drugs or alcohol or rare Star Wars cards. The exact trade doesn't matter so much as the illicit traders involved in it. We open the door to the sort of people who were willing to skirt the law to make a buck and they will do exactly that from their new political/bureaucratic positions.
Ending the violence is the positive outcome I am looking for, and honestly I think the premise that they would become an arm of the government is faulty for one simple reason - they already are that. But ultimately I am not calling for legalization, and prefer to just wipe these guys off the planet to give the Mexican people a shot at reigning in these groups. Might be a fool's errand if new players just take over, but its the only way I see at creating a chance of reform without the US military becoming Mexico's police force.
 

crowbrow

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Counterpoint to legalization and regulation: if the cartels are currently in bed with the Mexican gov't, how do you propose that you keep them out of the new "legitimate" drug trade?
There's no way to guarantee that easily but then they would have to use the regular market to sell their product and not violence and intimidation. In fact i would go as far as to concede permits to operate drug businesses to the current organisations if they agree to concessions like giving up their armament and handing their most ruthless criminals to the authorities. Desperate situations call for desperate measures.

The main objective here is to get rid of the senseless violence, control drug trade and make it a healthcare issue. The means to that are not ideal but worth much more than the status quo. When alcohol was legalized many involved with illegal alcohol trade made the transition to legal settings too.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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Ending the violence is the positive outcome I am looking for, and honestly I think the premise that they would become an arm of the government is faulty for one simple reason - they already are that. But ultimately I am not calling for legalization, and prefer to just wipe these guys off the planet to give the Mexican people a shot at reigning in these groups. Might be a fool's errand if new players just take over, but its the only way I see at creating a chance of reform without the US military becoming Mexico's police force.
If there's gonna be a military excursion, I am also in favor of a surgical, decisive operation against the cartels, all at once, eliminating them and any hidey-holes they might crawl to.

However, I think such an operation is logistically impossible in this day and age. How does a surgical strike remove the disease of a populace comfortable with corruption and graft?
 

DunDunDunpachi

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There's no way to guarantee that easily but then they would have to use the regular market to sell their product and not violence and intimidation. In fact i would go as far as to concede permits to operate drug businesses to the current organisations if they agree to concessions like giving up their armament and handing their most ruthless criminals to the authorities. Desperate situations call for desperate measures.

The main objective here is to get rid of the senseless violence, control drug trade and make it a healthcare issue. The means to that are not ideal but worth much more than the status quo. When alcohol was legalized many involved with illegal alcohol trade made the transition to legal settings too.
If the situation is so desperate, then the populace can cry out and demand action.

Meanwhile, the populace continues to enjoy the graft and payoff from the cartels, turning a blind eye to the drugs and violence and trafficking.

Perhaps the vast majority of the population is living in fear, but one would expect to see more of an outcry from the citizens themselves at least via the routes of internet and news outlets.
 
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crowbrow

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If the situation is so desperate, then the populace can cry out and demand action.
They have been for decades most people are already numb or lost hope completely, if you talk against cartels even online you get murdered, the situation is not controllable at this Point. The drug cratels are infiltrated into every aspect of government including the military. When you have a host with metastasized disease like this you either destroy the host (not possible here cause we don't want genocide) or try to integrate the disease and make it a functional part of the host which could be achieved through legalization.
 

NickFire

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If there's gonna be a military excursion, I am also in favor of a surgical, decisive operation against the cartels, all at once, eliminating them and any hidey-holes they might crawl to.

However, I think such an operation is logistically impossible in this day and age. How does a surgical strike remove the disease of a populace comfortable with corruption and graft?
There will be collateral damage. No way to avoid it.

If the situation is so desperate, then the populace can cry out and demand action.

Meanwhile, the populace continues to enjoy the graft and payoff from the cartels, turning a blind eye to the drugs and violence and trafficking.

Perhaps the vast majority of the population is living in fear, but one would expect to see more of an outcry from the citizens themselves at least via the routes of internet and news outlets.
People do cry out. And they are promptly murdered for it. Whether police, politician, or regular citizen - they take stands, and they get killed for it. All the time. And they have no recourse because of the corruption. Only way to help them at this point, is to eradicate enough of the disease that the people feel they have a chance to keep fighting without their family being instantly slaughtered for their trouble. Might be a fool's errand, but the status quo is not going to change without giving them a chance to speak without their head ending up in a cooler outside of a police station.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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They have been for decades most people are already numb or lost hope completely, if you talk against cartels even online you get murdered, the situation is not controllable at this Point.
I didn't realize things were so desperate. Then again, exaggerating the desperation of a populace has frequently been used as a pretense of foreign intervention. I am not convinced (doesn't matter since it isn't my call anyway).

The drug cratels are infiltrated into every aspect of government including the military. When you have a host with metastasized disease like this you either destroy the host (not possible here cause we don't want genocide) or try to integrate the disease and make it a functional part of the host which could be achieved through legalization.
The totality of destruction required for this to succeed would make the USA look like the bad guys, I 100% guarantee that. Any and all cry for help would be forgotten and replaced by resentment. See: every single one of the USA's post-Korean War intervention, ever. You yourself have voiced extreme hatred for the USA's intervention in S. America, so I'm puzzled why you would cheer for it. Why do you make concessions for intervention? Is it because the alternative is worse?

There will be collateral damage. No way to avoid it.

People do cry out. And they are promptly murdered for it. Whether police, politician, or regular citizen - they take stands, and they get killed for it. All the time. And they have no recourse because of the corruption. Only way to help them at this point, is to eradicate enough of the disease that the people feel they have a chance to keep fighting without their family being instantly slaughtered for their trouble. Might be a fool's errand, but the status quo is not going to change without giving them a chance to speak without their head ending up in a cooler outside of a police station.
They should grab guns. I don't want to be told that people wish to fight for freedom as a pretense for military action. I want to see it. I want to see the pushback. Which iteration of Kuwait will this be? I've lost count.
 
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If there are American citizens that are potentially kidnapped and being raped, tortured and more then we should have boots on the ground right now looking for them, cartels and Mexico be damned. The only way to show them that we won't accept this treatment is to slap back.

Fuck this world.
 
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NickFire

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I didn't realize things were so desperate. Then again, exaggerating the desperation of a populace has frequently been used as a pretense of foreign intervention. I am not convinced (doesn't matter since it isn't my call anyway).


The totality of destruction required for this to succeed would make the USA look like the bad guys, I 100% guarantee that. Any and all cry for help would be forgotten and replaced by resentment. See: every single one of the USA's post-Korean War intervention, ever. You yourself have voiced extreme hatred for the USA's intervention in S. America, so I'm puzzled why you would cheer for it. Why do you make concessions for intervention? Is it because the alternative is worse?


They should grab guns. I don't want to be told that people wish to fight for freedom as a pretense for military action. I want to see it. I want to see the pushback. Which iteration of Kuwait will this be? I've lost count.
Google is your friend brother (today at least).
 

Thaedolus

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If there are American citizens that are potentially kidnapped and being raped, tortured and more then we should have boots on the ground right now looking for them, cartels and Mexico be damned. The only way to show them that we won't accept this treatment is to slap back.

Fuck this world.
Leave the safety of the US at your own peril. I’d wager most of the victims were living in Mexico so they can practice polygamy in “peace,” but I’d take my chances with doing it on the DL in the US over living in border areas in Mexico with high cartel activity. Even camping south of Tucson sketched me out sometimes, I’d take a concealed carry and two big dogs when I went down alone to setup camp before the rest of my group arrived.

If I had to guess this was a case of mistaken identity or something...a convoy of SUVs carrying polygamists probably looks a lot like a convoy of cartel SUVs, but who knows? Fucking terrible and disgusting stuff. I’d echo that I’d much rather have US forces teaming up with Mexican military to take these fuckers out than being deployed overseas, and I certainly think you could distinguish between taking out cartels and typical law enforcement operations, but nothing is ever that simple...
 
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Leave the safety of the US at your own peril. I’d wager most of the victims were living in Mexico so they can practice polygamy in “peace,” but I’d take my chances with doing it on the DL in the US over living in border areas in Mexico with high cartel activity. Even camping south of Tucson sketched me out sometimes, I’d take a concealed carry and two big dogs when I went down alone to setup camp before the rest of my group arrived.

If I had to guess this was a case of mistaken identity or something...a convoy of SUVs carrying polygamists probably looks a lot like a convoy of cartel SUVs, but who knows? Fucking terrible and disgusting stuff. I’d echo that I’d much rather have US forces teaming up with Mexican military to take these fuckers out than being deployed overseas, and I certainly think you could distinguish between taking out cartels and typical law enforcement operations, but nothing is ever that simple...
You're jumping to a lot of conclusions about the polygamy bullshit. If that is true then you're right (kind of but I would still do it for the kids) but if they were just a mormon family on a church mission then we should not be waiting around on this.

This is just my opinion but I would treat this type of action very harshly. We should be going to get any of these family members back that are unaccounted for and anybody in the way can get some. This shit is disgusting.
 
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autoduelist

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I didn't realize things were so desperate. Then again, exaggerating the desperation of a populace has frequently been used as a pretense of foreign intervention. I am not convinced (doesn't matter since it isn't my call anyway).
Things are that desperate.





Look at the chart in this one... 37 mayors killed in 2018.

.It is also arguable the existing government is so corrupt and/or fearful that the Cartels have effective control and Mexico has, in fact, failed as a state and now exists as a shadow narco state. This is on our Southern border, and for some reason more than a few of our prominent politicians are talking about not only not building a wall, but literally having open borders and defunding ICE. Cartels have been building their gang infrastructure and influence within the US for decades. This is not just an international problem, but a domestic one.

When is enough enough? This isn't just a political debate. We are talking about Cartels known for committing atrocities upon not only their foes, but innocents caught in their crossfire.


The 2011 San Fernando massacre, also known as the second massacre of San Fernando,[1] was the mass murder of 193 people by Los Zetas drug cartel at La Joya ranch in the municipality of San Fernando, Tamaulipas, Mexico in March 2011.[2] Authorities investigating the massacre reported numerous hijackings of passenger buses on Mexican Federal Highway 101 in San Fernando, and the kidnapped victims were later killed and buried ...
Reports mentioned that female kidnapping victims were raped and able-bodied male kidnapping victims were forced to fight to the death with other hostages, similar to ancient Roman gladiators, where they were given knives, hammers, machetes and clubs to find recruits who were willing to kill for their lives.
This is the Cartels.

They are scum. If violence has any place in this world, it is to wipe the existence of people like them off the face of the Earth, especially where they have dug in, organized, and have reached military level, if not State level, power. This is on our border. Their outreach gangs are in our cities. It's rumored they are sending their recruits into our military for training [they also hire our ex-military as enforcers].

They need to be ended. I do not think Mexico has the will nor ability to do so themselves... but maybe they can be convinced to ask for our help.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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Things are that desperate.





Look at the chart in this one... 37 mayors killed in 2018.

.It is also arguable the existing government is so corrupt and/or fearful that the Cartels have effective control and Mexico has, in fact, failed as a state and now exists as a shadow narco state.

This is on our Southern border, and for some reason more than a few of our prominent politicians are talking about not only not building a wall, but literally having open borders and defunding ICE.

Cartels have been building their gang infrastructure and influence within the US for decades. This is not just an international problem, but a domestic one.

When is enough enough? This isn't just a political debate. We are talking about Cartels known for committing atrocities upon not only their foes, but innocents caught in their crossfire.

China is guilty of equal if not greater atrocities. The proximity of the country has no bearing on the rightness of a military venture.

I want to see a plan and I want to see more attempts at diplomacy. Trump attempted today but the Mexican president turned it away. If we can hold back from invading N. Korea, we can at least attempt dipomacy and appealing to the Mexican people before we roll in.

I cannot be more serious when I state that "enough is enough" is not a valid excuse, no matter how just the cause might seem. If this is going to be done, it needs to be the cleanest, most-professional military operation the USA has performed in the past 70 years.

I don't want to roll those dice, sorry. At least not yet. We cannot be so eager to jump right back into conflict.

This is the Cartels.

They are scum. If violence has any place in this world, it is to wipe the existence of people like them off the face of the Earth, especially where they have dug in, organized, and have reached military level, if not State level, power.

This is on our border. Their outreach gangs are in our cities. It's rumored they are sending their recruits into our military for training [they also hire our ex-military as enforcers].

They need to be ended. I do not think Mexico has the will nor ability to do so themselves... but maybe they can be convinced to ask for our help.
I am not disagreeing they are scum.

I am hoping against hope that we can do "regime change" right this time when I have decades of history telling me that it ain't gonna end up pretty. As you and others have pointed out, the corruption is so deep that it appears the line between "cartels" and "gov employee" might be blurred. That's going to cause major problems. This will not be a clean operation.

Functionally, we are marching in to overturn their government, and I do not find that acceptable. Make Congress vote on it, if it's so important.
 

Thaedolus

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You're jumping to a lot of conclusions about the polygamy bullshit. If that is true then you're right (kind of but I would still do it for the kids) but if they were just a mormon family on a church mission then we should not be waiting around on this.

This is just my opinion but I would treat this type of action very harshly. We should be going to get any of these family members back that are unaccounted for and anybody in the way can get some. This shit is disgusting.
As an ex-Mormon, ex-LDS missionary, and descendant of polygamists who knows a thing or two about these communities, I would say it’s a pretty informed guess on my part what these people were doing in Mexico...entire families don’t go on missions. They’re almost certainly polygamists trying to skirt US law.

That said, what happened was a heartbreaking, disgusting crime I can’t even fathom. Having read about what these cartels are capable of, my standpoint is just stay the fuck away from those border towns.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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I would argue it does when in spills into our country and becomes a domestic crisis.
Would securing our border with the military be an acceptable compromise, then? I mean, if regime change is on the table, how about as a middle ground we install machine gun turrets on a concrete border wall? Would this be okay? Any approaching cartels BOOM open fire, no questions asked. I would also throw in the the option for military cooperative action with state and local law enforcement to root out gangs in the USA through uncompromising destruction.

However, then we're edging into martial law territory. I already think we're too few steps away from it, if you get my meaning. I wouldn't want to inch any closer.

I don't like these options. I think they are the wrong way to go.
 

lock2k

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Decriminalizing drug use won't do shit.

Humans will always prefer shit that's illegal. It's so fucking basic.

Once it's legal, there's a boom, and then people will start using shit that is not legal. And drug cartels will still sell weed that is cheaper than the regulated one. I don't know what kind of fantasy land people imagine would happen if they decriminalized drug use. Thugs and drug trafficking will always exist. There's no magic solution.
 
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I would only support U. S. military involvement if we remove all laws prohibiting recreational drug use of any kind, including heroine, cocaine, meth, etc...

Once you've removed that money pipeline to the cartels, work in tandem with the less corrupt factions of the Mexican military to clean up towns one at a time, starting in Northern Mexico along the U. S. border.
thje problem is Drug should be illegal in the first place
 

autoduelist

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Would securing our border with the military be an acceptable compromise, then? I mean, if regime change is on the table, how about as a middle ground we install machine gun turrets on a concrete border wall? Would this be okay? Any approaching cartels BOOM open fire, no questions asked. I would also throw in the the option for military cooperative action with state and local law enforcement to root out gangs in the USA through uncompromising destruction.

However, then we're edging into martial law territory. I already think we're too few steps away from it, if you get my meaning. I wouldn't want to inch any closer.

I don't like these options. I think they are the wrong way to go.
I don't think we need to kill people on sight, so... I guess you are joking?

I'd be for a direct, focused attempt to rout out gang activity in the US, but with a couple thousand pages of asterisks to prevent police state, ensure due process, and a couple hundred other things. We've done it before.

How about build a wall, fund border defense, end all trade with Mexico [yes, I realize the severity of this] until they fix their shit? Though that would likely send them into a tailspin.. but as with China, we are currently playing with matches and funding some very bad actors.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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I don't think we need to kill people on sight, so... I guess you are joking?

I'd be for a direct, focused attempt to rout out gang activity in the US, but with a couple thousand pages of asterisks to prevent police state, ensure due process, and a couple hundred other things. We've done it before.

How about build a wall, fund border defense, end all trade with Mexico [yes, I realize the severity of this] until they fix their shit? Though that would likely send them into a tailspin.. but as with China, we are currently playing with matches and funding some very bad actors.
If people aren't joking about marching into Mexico and installing a new government, then I'm not joking about machine gun turrets, as dark as that might seem at first pass. Shouldn't we defend our border before we march across it?

I am being intentionally dark and cynical because I do not see any of these options as truly acceptable. I think a wall with the equipment to defend it would be far preferrable to sending soldiers into Mexico for a regime change, at least.

Cutting off trade with Mexico would only make their situation worse as they're forced to turn to nefarious actors for aid. China is at least a cohesive government, evil as they might be acting. It sounds like Mexico truly is a shadow gov't run by cartels. It certainly isn't the first time that has happened to a nation.

As to what the right thing is, I'm not sure. Waiting is the right decision for now instead of rushing into a conflict. I want Congress to vote on an invasion. I want us to hold ourselves responsible for such an action if that is what is necessary.

No more rushing in.
 

ChuckeRearmed

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The problem is that cartels are around the border. The war will create the influx of refugees towards USA.
It is not like there are small of them coming to USA anyway now lol but there might be a bigger amount.

Also the war around american border might draw player from overseas.

Another idea might be abandoning the mexican government and create a pure mafia-state in Mexico, like it happened in Russia. After all the cartels are able to disregard the military now.
 
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Havoc2049

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You're jumping to a lot of conclusions about the polygamy bullshit. If that is true then you're right (kind of but I would still do it for the kids) but if they were just a mormon family on a church mission then we should not be waiting around on this.

This is just my opinion but I would treat this type of action very harshly. We should be going to get any of these family members back that are unaccounted for and anybody in the way can get some. This shit is disgusting.
The family killed were dual Mexico/US citizens and they were driving down to the Mormon community they were originally from in Mexico, to attend a wedding. This Mormon community in Mexico is currently in a battle with the cartels that control that part of Mexico. The Mormons let the Mexican military and police use their town as a base of operations in their fight against the cartels, as it provides them some protection against the cartels. This isn't the first act of violence against the Mormons in Mexico, as they refuse to capitulate to Mexican Cartel rule. This was most likely a targeted attack. BTW, this is the same Mexican Mormon community that the Romney family (Senator Mitt Romney) traces some of their family tree back to.

Leave the safety of the US at your own peril. I’d wager most of the victims were living in Mexico so they can practice polygamy in “peace,” but I’d take my chances with doing it on the DL in the US over living in border areas in Mexico with high cartel activity. Even camping south of Tucson sketched me out sometimes, I’d take a concealed carry and two big dogs when I went down alone to setup camp before the rest of my group arrived.
I'm from the Southwest US and have been camping and hiking in the Coronado National Forest in that area before. Beautiful place, but it's no joke and I always go armed. That area is also a high traffic area for the drug smuggling as well. I've run into several large groups of illegal aliens on hiking trails down there and I always camp 20 to 30 yards off the trails and have heard several large groups pass below my tent, on the trail during the night. I always sleep with a pistol by my side while camping down there.
 
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As an ex-Mormon, ex-LDS missionary, and descendant of polygamists who knows a thing or two about these communities, I would say it’s a pretty informed guess on my part what these people were doing in Mexico...entire families don’t go on missions. They’re almost certainly polygamists trying to skirt US law.

That said, what happened was a heartbreaking, disgusting crime I can’t even fathom. Having read about what these cartels are capable of, my standpoint is just stay the fuck away from those border towns.
The family killed were dual Mexico/US citizens and they were driving down to the Mormon community they were originally from in Mexico, to attend a wedding. This Mormon community in Mexico is currently in a battle with the cartels that control that part of Mexico. The Mormons let the Mexican military and police use their town as a base of operations in their fight against the cartels, as it provides them some protection against the cartels. This isn't the first act of violence against the Mormons in Mexico, as they refuse to capitulate to Mexican Cartel rule. This was most likely a targeted attack. BTW, this is the same Mexican Mormon community that the Romney family (Senator Mitt Romney) traces some of their family tree back to.
I guess its probably not bullshit. After reading more details about this you two definitely seem spot on with who these folks are. I'm not necessarily as willing to put boots on the ground there to help people that left our country to avoid our laws.

Not my call anyways but I hate the cartels and what they stand for. I'd be down for some drone strikes on known cartel strongholds. Any innocents that may be imprisoned there are already dead anyways.

I'd love for the US to become much more isolationist but this is essentially happening in our backyard. Lets stop policing the world but maybe keep our options open with Canada and Mexico. If either of them get too crazy we can put them in their place.
 
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Super Mario

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The only one that i would truly trust that has a true will to end this madness is the person that proposes to end the war on drugs and pursue legalization and regulations. A war in Mexico territory would be a catastrophy because cartels are mixed with civilians so the civilian population will be impacted even harder than cartels and, as we have seen before, killing a cartel leader basically generates a power vaccum for new cartels and drug lords, each new one more sadistic than the previous one. The only way to fix this is to destroy the illegal drug demand market so either the US does something to stop being the main drug consuming country in the world or we pursue legalization and regulation of this market and make the problem a health problem rather than a criminal one. I'm personally for the second option since it worked with taking power away from the mafia when alcohol was legalized.
This is a perfect example of stupid ass Liberal ideas. LIke the problem is some guy has a passion for marijuana, and we legalize it, and POOF, the problems go away.

Cartels exist because of money and power. They don't care what they are pushing. They don't care who they hurt. They want their empire. Their wealth is so great that they buy their influence (but we see that all over the world). If you take away one industry, do you think they just go out of business? Or will they work at weed dispensaries for a salary? Quit being stupid. They will just start pushing other drugs, or other trades like human trafficking.

The more I've looked into this issue, the more hopeless it becomes. I do know one thing. That whatever we did before is not working. Once you have exercised all diplomatic options, that is when war goes on the table. I honestly don't see any other way besides that, and tougher laws for trafficking drugs in the US.
 
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Decriminalizing drug use won't do shit.

Humans will always prefer shit that's illegal. It's so fucking basic.

Once it's legal, there's a boom, and then people will start using shit that is not legal. And drug cartels will still sell weed that is cheaper than the regulated one. I don't know what kind of fantasy land people imagine would happen if they decriminalized drug use. Thugs and drug trafficking will always exist. There's no magic solution.
Legalization of weed is actually what has given cartels more power and money through meth sales.

There is a Joe Rogan episode that had an ex Mexico officer on and it delved deep into this and other issues surrounding the shit show.

 

Thaedolus

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It's not even about drugs, cartels are fucking with avocado trade as well. If something has value, controlling it has value, period. Making something illegal increases its value (benefit) but also legalizing it reduces some of the risk to people in control (cost). As always, the answer isn't "just do this, problem solved." An organism can't be cured of a systemic disease like metastatic cancer by just blasting a tumor out of existence, because the disease is everywhere. Same thing with Mexico's cartel issue...you can go in and blow up these sick fucks, but the corruption is already all over the place. It will take a top to bottom reform of the entire Mexican criminal justice system and political system to really get to the root cause of the problem.

That being said, I'd still feel better if the fucks that commit these kinds of atrocities got thrown into a meat grinder.
 
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That being said, I'd still feel better if the fucks that commit these kinds of atrocities got thrown into a meat grinder.
That's what I am about. I'm an emotional creature and this type of act makes me want to send in the special forces and wipe out the fucks who did this while trying to get any kidnap victims back. Obviously its unrealistic but I don't want to overthrow the government, just sneak in, murder a bunch of scum and get the kiddos back. That's all.