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War on Cartels? Large Mormon family slaughtered, raped, burned alive in Sonora, Trump responds.

autoduelist

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If people aren't joking about marching into Mexico and installing a new government, then I'm not joking about machine gun turrets, as dark as that might seem at first pass. Shouldn't we defend our border before we march across it?
Who is talking about regime change? This would be going in at the behest of a duly elected President, elected by the people of Mexico. We wouldn't be installing a new gov't, if anything, we'd be legitimizing the existing one by removing Cartel power which then lessens their grip on power.
 

Somnium

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Easiest way to stop the drug cartels is to wage business, not war, on them.

Make coke, legalise it, tax it, make it better, sell it cheap in a proper setting. Flood mexico with so much cheap coke that the cartels fold over-night.
You're living in a fantasy world. You're talking about going into business with savages that torture and viciously slaughter innocent men, women, and children.
That deal in human trafficking, kidnapping and extortion. Kill for pleasure or petty reasons. That display mutilated bodies out in public.

What?

Also selling coke in a proper setting? When that cuts into their profits and they move onto harder narcotics, what then? Legalize meth, heroin, fentanyl? You say this like these hard narcotics aren't deadly to consume recreationally.
 
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oagboghi2

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Easiest way to stop the drug cartels is to wage business, not war, on them.

Make coke, legalise it, tax it, make it better, sell it cheap in a proper setting. Flood mexico with so much cheap coke that the cartels fold over-night.
should we also legalize child prostitution, because they do that as well? Along with kidnapping.

What kind of logic is this? How is flooding a country with drugs going to help the people?
 

TheSadRanger

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The CIA and powers that be in the U.S will never allow Mexico to become a stable state. Project Gunrunner, Operation Wide Receiver and Operation Fast & Furious are proof of this. A destabilized Mexico benefits the U.S with labor and discourages emigration from the U.S.

ATF agents have gone on record saying they were ordered to let guns be smuggled to cartels.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/agent-i-was-ordered-to-let-us-guns-into-mexico-03-03-2011/

Mexico is actually a pretty nice place, if it was stable I could easily see people from the U.S with it's incredible rising cost of living possibly moving to Mexico. That's why it will never be allowed to have stability and peace.
 

oagboghi2

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The CIA and powers that be in the U.S will never allow Mexico to become a stable state. Project Gunrunner, Operation Wide Receiver and Operation Fast & Furious are proof of this. A destabilized Mexico benefits the U.S with labor and discourages emigration from the U.S.

ATF agents have gone on record saying they were ordered to let guns be smuggled to cartels.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/agent-i-was-ordered-to-let-us-guns-into-mexico-03-03-2011/

Mexico is actually a pretty nice place, if it was stable I could easily see people from the U.S with it's incredible rising cost of living possibly moving to Mexico. That's why it will never be allowed to have stability and peace.
you know you are saying this is a thread where the president proposes to deal with one of the largest destabilizing forces, right?
 

crowbrow

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I didn't realize things were so desperate. Then again, exaggerating the desperation of a populace has frequently been used as a pretense of foreign intervention. I am not convinced (doesn't matter since it isn't my call anyway).
Did you see in the recent Intervention by the mexican government where cartels liberated a bunch of criminals on the streets and threatened the mexican government until they released their leader? There's footage of cartel men cheering and hugging army personnel. They have infected everything. And this is not a call for intervention, intervention would be stupid and would make everything worse, that's why the president of Mexico rejected it quickly, the ones that would suffer more with an Intervention is the mexican civilians. The cartels would turn on them to pressure the government and the collateral damage from an Army attacking mexican territory would be huge. That's why i said that legalization and regulation is the only possible and rational way out of this.

The totality of destruction required for this to succeed would make the USA look like the bad guys, I 100% guarantee that. Any and all cry for help would be forgotten and replaced by resentment. See: every single one of the USA's post-Korean War intervention, ever. You yourself have voiced extreme hatred for the USA's intervention in S. America, so I'm puzzled why you would cheer for it. Why do you make concessions for intervention? Is it because the alternative is worse?
I think you misunderstood what i said here. I'm saying exactly the opposite of what you're claiming i said. I said intervention would almost have to be genocidal at this point and that no one wants that, im not cheering it. That's why i said the option i prefer is the one of legalization and regulation, for me that's the only plausible option at this point. Everything else will end up worsening the situation.
 

crowbrow

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Decriminalizing drug use won't do shit.

Humans will always prefer shit that's illegal. It's so fucking basic.

Once it's legal, there's a boom, and then people will start using shit that is not legal. And drug cartels will still sell weed that is cheaper than the regulated one. I don't know what kind of fantasy land people imagine would happen if they decriminalized drug use. Thugs and drug trafficking will always exist. There's no magic solution.
When alcohol became legal the huge illegal trade market for alcohol and the mafia became weak. Sure illegal alcohol trade still exists but the vast majority of consumers chose the safe and regulated option for obvious reasons. So there's evidence that goes contrary to what you're claiming here.
 

crowbrow

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Cartels exist because of money and power. They don't care what they are pushing. They don't care who they hurt. They want their empire. Their wealth is so great that they buy their influence (but we see that all over the world). If you take away one industry, do you think they just go out of business? Or will they work at weed dispensaries for a salary? Quit being stupid. They will just start pushing other drugs, or other trades like human trafficking.
If this is true then why did the Mafia lose most of their power with the legalization of alcohol? Sure many of them moved to other illegal business ventures but the profitability of alcohol was such that nothing could match that much money and power. The Mafia is a prime example why this could work.
 

HeresJohnny

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Serious question, and I do feel bad for the horrors this family had happen to the,. But if you’re a bunch of white Mormons, what the fuck are you doing living in Mexico?

I was born and raised in SoCal, I remember a time when Mexico wasn’t a dangerous place to go, but that was a long time ago. These cartels have been warring for the last decade or so and you can find incident after incident ad nauseum of horrific killings and murders occurring there.

I lived in Arizona for 23 years as well, and I saw friends stupidly cross the border and get shaken down by the Federales too. Even the good guys there are bad. Still, it takes an idiot to not see that people are flooding out of that place and not wonder why. Mexico is a dangerous place, and if you willingly place your family there, you’re placing them in danger and what happens to them is on you. That’s my take here. It’s still a tragedy, but these people are stupid for having been there to begin with. At some point, you have to take accountability for your own safety.
 
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I think the US would be better helping their neighbours in return for good relations just as long as the idea of Martial Law is taken off the table and agreed with the Military (given that almost 50% of the US Budget is used for the Army, why not use it for good?), focus on helping Mexico on an assistant basis to drive out or imprison Drug Cartels in return of not building a wall between the two countries, as effectively the Quality of Life for Mexicans would mean that less migrants come to the US for a better life.

I cannot see this happening though as the system is partially also underground, away from the Mexican Government as well as in it. The US would need a significant plan to help the Mexican Government root out the whole system of corruption to even make a dent on the Cartels but...if they could put in the first plans on how to help their neighbours, in the long run Mexico could be a reliable ally in the long run.
 

lock2k

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When alcohol became legal the huge illegal trade market for alcohol and the mafia became weak. Sure illegal alcohol trade still exists but the vast majority of consumers chose the safe and regulated option for obvious reasons. So there's evidence that goes contrary to what you're claiming here.
They have a wide array of businesses that aren't drug related. They would lose some power but they wouldn't go extinct. These guys aren't magically going to send resumes to work on a 9 to 5 job if they legalize drugs.
 
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UltimaKilo

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Their president shot down the idea of waging war against the cartels according to The Hill:

Another Mexican President who either doesn’t have the stomach to fight back and defend his people, or is being paid off somehow.

it’s such a shame. Mexico, with it’s large, young population, VAST natural resources, beautiful landscape, incredible climate and agriculture, has everything it needs to be an economic powerhouse, and yet nobody does anything to fix the security issues.
 

Woo-Fu

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I always get a chuckle when I see people advocating a massive attack on supply while completely ignoring demand. It's why the various "War on..." never works, Americans aren't willing to do what it takes to deal with the demand side of the equation.

As long as supplying illegal drugs to Americans is a lucrative business somebody is going to do it. Decapitate a cartel? Somebody else steps into the power void.
 
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crowbrow

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They have a wide array of businesses that aren't drug related. They would lose some power but they wouldn't go extinct. These guys aren't magically going to send resumes to work on a 9 to 5 job if they legalize drugs.
Yeah but the grip the Mafia had in cities, politicians, police, etc diminished considerably. They lost a lot of Power and never became as powerful as they were under prohibition. Nothing will end up making criminals disappear, not bigger punishments, not war, etc. But if a measure like legalization can take away financial and influential power from them and switch it to the legitimate market that is a good thing to stop with this senseless violence.
 

crowbrow

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I always get a chuckle when I see people advocating a massive attack on supply while completely ignoring demand. It's why the various "War on..." never works, Americans aren't willing to do what it takes to deal with the demand side of the equation.

As long as supplying illegal drugs to Americans is a lucrative business somebody is going to do it. Decapitate a cartel? Somebody else steps into the power void.
Exactly and this is why what Trump proposes is nonsense as well as the behavior of the past mexican governments have been nonsense. They're dealing with a Hydra here, you chop off one head, several others regenerate in its place. Unless you have the msgical solution to deal with the demand on drugs you'll never stop the supply. So better make it fucking legal already, charge taxes for it and use that money to treat addiction and for prevention programs.
 

Gashtronomy

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should we also legalize child prostitution, because they do that as well? Along with kidnapping.

What kind of logic is this? How is flooding a country with drugs going to help the people?
Are we helping the people or stopping the cartels? Do you want to send freedom through missiles or freedom through removing a threat?

You're living in a fantasy world. You're talking about going into business with savages that torture and viciously slaughter innocent men, women, and children.
That deal in human trafficking, kidnapping and extortion. Kill for pleasure or petty reasons. That display mutilated bodies out in public.

What?

Also selling coke in a proper setting? When that cuts into their profits and they move onto harder narcotics, what then? Legalize meth, heroin, fentanyl? You say this like these hard narcotics aren't deadly to consume recreationally.
The fantasy world is yours. I never said go in to business with them. Simply remove their cash flow and let them implode. The alternative is to hit the cocaine at its' source in South America but that is going to be very costly.

Fighting the cartels, as in boots on the ground, would be less effective than Vietnam and the middle east campaigns combined. So that's out of the option.

Hitting them financially is where you start, if you want to remove the cartels. Any other option on the table ranges from inaction but shouting a lot, to a full-scale invasion.

Cartels main source of cash is cocaine, because it's so easy to get their hands on it, being almost all of the worlds supply comes from south America. Heroin et al, harvested from the poppy plant come from the mid-east and is much harder and more expensive to get their hands on.
 
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Somnium

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Are we helping the people or stopping the cartels? Do you want to send freedom through missiles or freedom through removing a threat?
You say this like the two are mutually exclusive. Sending fuck you missiles to savages lacking any semblance of humanity = removing a threat.

Are we helping the people or stopping the cartels? Do you want to send freedom through missiles or freedom through removing a threat?



The fantasy world is yours. I never said go in to business with them. Simply remove their cash flow and let them implode. The alternative is to hit the cocaine at its' source in South America but that is going to be very costly.

Fighting the cartels, as in boots on the ground, would be less effective than Vietnam and the middle east campaigns combined. So that's out of the option.

Hitting them financially is where you start, if you want to remove the cartels. Any other option on the table ranges from inaction but shouting a lot, to a full-scale invasion.

Cartels main source of cash is cocaine, because it's so easy to get their hands on it, being almost all of the worlds supply comes from south America. Heroin et al, harvested from the poppy plant come from the mid-east and is much harder and more expensive to get their hands on.
You're saying hitting them finically is where we star, sure they'll be affected to some extent. Marijuana is one thing, but that requires we also legalize hard narcotics. That isn't going to happen. State legalization of weed in the USA hasn't eliminated black markets. So I don't see how dealing deadly harmful and highly addictive narcotics to US citizens is not living in a fantasy world, frankly.

As already stated, these cartels are also involved other illicit blackmarkets, they have a grip hold on just about every institution in Mexico. Sooner or later war is needed to wipe them out. That needs to start with Mexicans first and foremost, they need to fight back for their country, not run. If the USA is fucked, then what?
 
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lock2k

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You're saying hitting them finically is where we star, sure they'll be affected to some extent. Marijuana is one thing, but that requires we also legalize hard narcotics. That isn't going to happen. State legalization of weed in the USA hasn't eliminated black markets. So I don't see how dealing deadly harmful and highly addictive narcotics to US citizens is not living in a fantasy world, frankly.

As already stated, these cartels are also involved other illicit blackmarkets, they have a grip hold on just about every institution in Mexico. Sooner or later war is needed to wipe them out. That needs to start with Mexicans first and foremost, they need to fight back for their country, not run. If the USA is fucked, then what?
People don't understand that cartels are like the Google of crime.

If you kill the search engine (drug dealing by legalizing), you don't kill the monster. They have many other ventures. They are like octopuses or chimeras.
 
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crowbrow

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That isn't going to happen. State legalization of weed in the USA hasn't eliminated black markets. So I don't see how dealing deadly harmful and highly addictive narcotics to US citizens is not living in a fantasy world, frankly.

As already stated, these cartels are also involved other illicit blackmarkets, they have a grip hold on just about every institution in Mexico. Sooner or later war is needed to wipe them out. That needs to start with Mexicans first and foremost, they need to fight back for their country, not run. If the USA is fucked, then what?
It has to be a sweeping change, you cant legalize things a bit and expect the problem to go away. I'll be interested to see the black markets of weed in states where it is legal, has it diminished? Stayed the same? Increased? I bet is lower. But the big power of these cartels comes from drugs because lots and lots of people use drugs and they're completely illegal. The side markets they participate in are side businesses not their main business. The Mafia had also dealings in many markets but their main power came through the illegal trade of alcohol, once alcohol was legalized they kept dealing on their other businesses but their power was a fraction of what it was before because the thing that gave them real power was alcohol not their other businesses. The same with cartels, their main power comes from the drug markets, not elsewhere.
 
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So I don't see how dealing deadly harmful and highly addictive narcotics to US citizens is not living in a fantasy world, frankly.
It's the libertarian fantasy where the free market acts as a proxy for social darwinism and eliminates those who make poor decisions while having no effect upon those around. Of course a man is not an Island and drug addiction affects everyone around the addicts. Libertarians would probably believe you could eliminate child traffickers by legalizing sexual slavery, the logic is actually that stupid.
Also
Drug cartels are probably propped up by our own intelligence agencies(CIA) in much the same way they prop up and protect child trafficking operations. Likely for funding, blackmail, and applying political pressure upon US and foreign countries.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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It has to be a sweeping change, you cant legalize things a bit and expect the problem to go away. I'll be interested to see the black markets of weed in states where it is legal, has it diminished? Stayed the same? Increased? I bet is lower. But the big power of these cartels comes from drugs because lots and lots of people use drugs and they're completely illegal. The side markets they participate in are side businesses not their main business. The Mafia had also dealings in many markets but their main power came through the illegal trade of alcohol, once alcohol was legalized they kept dealing on their other businesses but their power was a fraction of what it was before because the thing that gave them real power was alcohol not their other businesses. The same with cartels, their main power comes from the drug markets, not elsewhere.
How do you propose the drugs are legalized while also preventing the existing cartels from simply moving into the legitimate business (with their existing infrastructure and know-how)?

To me, legalization at this scale would only serve to entrench the current cartel leaders into whatever government goes this route. That does not seem like a recipe for reducing corruption.
 

crowbrow

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People don't understand that cartels are like the Google of crime.

If you kill the search engine (drug dealing by legalizing), you don't kill the monster. They have many other ventures. They are like octopuses or chimeras.
Imagine leaving Google with their Google Glass and Google Maps and taking away their search engine, YouTube, Google Docs and all their other main products. Sure it will keep existing but it wont be the Powerhouse it was before. Look at Yahoo, it was once the biggest search engine, now it still exists but is a shadow of its former self with virtually no real power over the market. So it doesn't matter if they keep existing as long as you Cut their main source of Power. Your analogy works better for the situation right now, everytime the mexican government engages one of this organizations with violence and manages to Cut their head, several other more ruthless groups grow in place because the demand for drugs is still there. This is well documented and easy to see, it is a failed and stupid tactic. If Google loses the search engine that niche for searching content will be filled by another company because the demand for searching content will still exist.
 

lock2k

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Imagine leaving Google with their Google Glass and Google Maps and taking away their search engine, YouTube, Google Docs and all their other main products. Sure it will keep existing but it wont be the Powerhouse it was before. Look at Yahoo, it was once the biggest search engine, now it still exists but is a shadow of its former self with virtually no real power over the market. So it doesn't matter if they keep existing as long as you Cut their main source of Power. Your analogy works better for the situation right now, everytime the mexican government engages one of this organizations with violence and manages to Cut their head, several other more ruthless groups grow in place because the demand for drugs is still there. This is well documented and easy to see, it is a failed and stupid tactic. If Google loses the search engine that niche for searching content will be filled by another company because the demand for searching content will still exist.
They may momentarily lose some power, but they will find another venture. .

It's a simplistic way to deal with things. It's like a Peter Pan solution. They won't stop with gambling, prostitution, human trafficking, organ trafficking, making fake documents, crossing people over the border, murder, arson, controlling areas by force, kidnapping, extortion, hacking, robbing banks, etcetera.
 
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Super Mario

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If this is true then why did the Mafia lose most of their power with the legalization of alcohol? Sure many of them moved to other illegal business ventures but the profitability of alcohol was such that nothing could match that much money and power. The Mafia is a prime example why this could work.
While your comparison to the mafia isn't completely terrible, it's still not the same thing. We always try to draw parallels to history because we are taught that means we have learned so much. There are so many differences between Mexico and the US. Mafias still exist. Alcohol isn't their only possible trade. Some push drugs. However, there is a reason why they could never get a drug trade as big as the Mexican cartels. Because there is fundamental differences between the countries. It's far easier to bust up a crime syndicate in your own country than another one. A good chunk of the Mafia realized that the black market business is too dangerous and got into more legitimate business. Mexico lacks the number of industries that we have. There, you can go into drugs or have a hard time earning money. Our government also cracked down on the Mafia big time. While we had our corruption, it never got as bad as Mexico.

And the "war on drugs" isn't even the problem we are trying to solve here. It's the drug use. Many of the big cities that the cartels target for easy money, are or have disgusting shit hole slums. Making drugs easier is the fix? What if capitalism of drugs makes them easier and cheaper? How in the world does that make heroin use go down?
 
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crowbrow

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How do you propose the drugs are legalized while also preventing the existing cartels from simply moving into the legitimate business (with their existing infrastructure and know-how)?

To me, legalization at this scale would only serve to entrench the current cartel leaders into whatever government goes this route. That does not seem like a recipe for reducing corruption.
If they transition into legitimate businesses then it is 1 million times better than what they do now. They wouldnt have to resort to violent and intimidation tactics because they would be participating in a legitimate market using regulation rules and proper controls. That's the whole Point of legalization, to bring the business into a legitimate arena where it can be controlled, not to let it run amok in black, unregulated markets with rogue armies controlling the trade.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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If they transition into legitimate businesses then it is 1 million times better than what they do now. They wouldnt have to resort to violent and intimidation tactics because they would be participating in a legitimate market using regulation rules and proper controls. That's the whole Point of legalization, to bring the business into a legitimate arena where it can be controlled, not to let it run amok in black, unregulated markets with rogue armies controlling the trade.
No, it would set an awful precedent and would only kick the can down the road.

I also find it amusing that you think murderous cartels would suddenly turn into civilized working stiffs who abide by laws and regulations. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

If we're comparing alternatives, removing the cartels' connection to the source material (in this case, cocaine, sex-slaves, weapons, etc) seems to be the best route if we take action.

In my opinion, if violence is going to be the answer, take a page out of Obama's book and drone-strike their production facilities without mercy, over and over, for weeks and months and years if necessary. Give some bored Army specialists a fun afternoon of chasing down thugs with robots. Make it too unprofitable and too dangerous to exist. Gun down every person in every production facility. We don't have to fight them in the cities. We don't have to uproot their corruption on behalf of the Mexican people.

We can make it too expensive to conduct business. The one area where cartels aren't going to be able to fight back is against drones (or missiles) dropped from high altitudes.
 
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crowbrow

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They may momentarily lose some power, but they will find another venture. .
How can you be sure? The Mafia never gained back the influence and power they had back then.
It's a simplistic way to deal with things. It's like a Peter Pan solution. They won't stop with gambling, prostitution, human trafficking, organ trafficking, making fake documents, crossing people over the border, murder, arson, controlling areas by force, kidnapping, extortion, hacking, robbing banks, etcetera.
Yeah and all those things pale in comparison to the power and money you can gain through drugs. The Mafia also kept dealing in a lot of those same businesses back then too and their power was a fraction of the one they had under alcohol prohibition.
 
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lock2k

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How can you be sure? The Mafia never gained back the influence and power they had back then.
Yeah and all those things pale in comparison to the power and money you can gain through drugs. The Mafia also kept dealing in a lot of those same businesses back then too and their power was a fraction of the one they had under alcohol prohibition.
The Mafia wasn't in a Mafia state, simple as that. It was in a serious country, not Mexico or Brazil.

I live in Brazil. Rio de Janeiro is just like Mexico. They control the whole thing, the whole state is a crime state. Drugs are just part of the equation. Sure, they are the most money making, but they traffic guns, they control the nightlife, they make irregular popular buildings and sell apartments to poor people, they are involved with the government and people that are waiting for a house can jump the line if they pay them, they beat up or straight kill shop owners if they don't pay their monthly protection fee, they rob cargoes, they rob banks, they blow up ATMs, they kidnap rich people, they fund their own lawyers by paying for their education. I imagine Mexico is exactly the same, but even a little worse than Brazil in this regard. Legalizing drugs will never magically do the trick.
 
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Somnium

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It has to be a sweeping change, you cant legalize things a bit and expect the problem to go away. I'll be interested to see the black markets of weed in states where it is legal, has it diminished? Stayed the same? Increased? I bet is lower. But the big power of these cartels comes from drugs because lots and lots of people use drugs and they're completely illegal. The side markets they participate in are side businesses not their main business. The Mafia had also dealings in many markets but their main power came through the illegal trade of alcohol, once alcohol was legalized they kept dealing on their other businesses but their power was a fraction of what it was before because the thing that gave them real power was alcohol not their other businesses. The same with cartels, their main power comes from the drug markets, not elsewhere.
You're not telling me anything I don't already know. I don't see how legalizing highly addictive hard narcotics for recreational use and putting US citizens at risk is somehow a good idea.
That literally isn't going to happen. Let's legalize coke, meth, and fentanyl and get half of our own population hopelessly addicted to harmful substances, yea sounds like a plan...

Once the rate of drug addiction and drug related deaths sky rockets in the US, and the cartels move onto other illicit black markets to make up loss profits, what then?
They'll still have a means to operate, they'll still be violent and ruthless, ironically enough they'll still be in the drug trade and likely sell their product cheaper even, they'll still be armed to the teeth.

One of the biggest most consistent issues is that some parties in the US are selling weapons to Mexican cartels. Between third party sellers and CIA cowboys, there needs to be an effort to locate, reprimand, and arrest them.
 
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crowbrow

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No, it would set an awful precedent and would only kick the can down the road.
And how come that didnt happen with the Mafia and alcohol legalization? No spiraling out of control took place. The Mafia just lost its influence and power.

I also find it amusing that you think murderous cartels would suddenly turn into civilized working stiffs who abide by laws and regulations.
These people care about making money first and foremost. If a legitimate market allows them to make money, why wouldnt they use it?

If we're comparing alternatives, removing the cartels' connection to the source material (in this case, cocaine, sex-slaves, weapons, etc) seems to be the best route if we take action.
This has been part of the "war on drugs" tactic for decades, tell me how that has worked out. They eliminated several groups in colombia where the drug was produced and operations just moved closer to the US border to Mexico. They say that if you keep trying a solution that doesn't work time and time again that's a sign of insanity. I think the drug war is already way past insane levels of denial.

In my opinion, if violence is going to be the answer, take a page out of Obama's book and drone-strike their production facilities without mercy, over and over, for weeks and months and years if necessary
Also has been tried before in colombia, the drug dealers just got better at hiding, now they hide mixed with civilian populations. Are you prepared to carpet bomb civilian populations in Mexico and deal with the consequences of that?
 

DunDunDunpachi

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And how come that didnt happen with the Mafia and alcohol legalization? No spiraling out of control took place. The Mafia just lost its influence and power.
You're comparing two completely different situations:

- Mafia was in large part a repository for existing seedy groups brought in via mass immigration and mass unemployment during the era
- Prohibition didn't last even 15 years. Compare that to the "drug war".
- The substance in question (alcohol) was already legal, widespread, and well-entrenched across numerous cultures.
- The Mafia didn't lose its influence or power. It transitioned into more lucrative markets like illicit drugs, weapon trade, Union graft, and so forth

These people care about making money first and foremost. If a legitimate market allows them to make money, why wouldnt they use it?
I agree they would use it.

I am questioning the sanity of letting them use it. If the goal is to eliminate corruption, giving these criminals an amnesty to enter a highly-lucrative market would not purge their corruption, it would enable it. When competition within this market heats up, do you think they'll abide by the laws and regulations you hope to implement?

I think you are not really thinking this through. Either that, or your knowledge of human social behavior is extremely deficient.

This has been part of the "war on drugs" tactic for decades, tell me how that has worked out. They eliminated several groups in colombia where the drug was produced and operations just moved closer to the US border to Mexico. They say that if you keep trying a solution that doesn't work time and time again that's a sign of insanity. I think the drug war is already way past insane levels of denial.
Funny coming from you, Mr Socialist, but I'll bite:

Show me how legalization eliminated cartels. If you insist on following historical precedent, then I'd like to see examples of where entrenched corruption was removed after previously-illegal markets were made legal.

Thank you for abiding by your own standards. I await your reply.

Also has been tried before in colombia, the drug dealers just got better at hiding, now they hide mixed with civilian populations. Are you prepared to carpet bomb civilian populations in Mexico and deal with the consequences of that?
I am suggesting the opposite: drone strike the production facilities, the boats, the planes, the actual production and transit of these substances and leave the cities alone.

If Mexican citizens still fail to rise up and oust the corruption (which is what I predict would happen) then that's their fault and we can just go back to defending our border.
 

crowbrow

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And the "war on drugs" isn't even the problem we are trying to solve here. It's the drug use. Many of the big cities that the cartels target for easy money, are or have disgusting shit hole slums. Making drugs easier is the fix? What if capitalism of drugs makes them easier and cheaper? How in the world does that make heroin use go down?
Ok but right now the biggest demand of drugs in the world is in the US, while the biggest supplier is in its border: Mexico. Yes, ideally, if you can control the demand then supply goes down and suppliers lose Money and power. But what is exactly the plan to do that? The US hasnt done much in that regard and it doesn't seem they have a plausible plan. Drug use is in all times high. So if the demand is apparently incontrollable and the supply even more so, just make the thing legitimate and get rid of the senseless violence, tax drug trade and use the money to deal with drug-related health issues including prevention. Right now the "solutions" being used are nonsense and the problem becomes bigger and bigger. And, like i said, yeah the Mafia kept existing but they reached their peak power under prohibition of alcohol for obvious reasons. Back then they had legs in the government, police, etc. After switching to less profitting markets they lost most control and violence went down considerably.
 

Somnium

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And how come that didnt happen with the Mafia and alcohol legalization? No spiraling out of control took place. The Mafia just lost its influence and power.
I don't think you understand how absolutely fucking depraved these cartels are. You're comparing the mafia to waring drug cartels that are also involved in child prostitution, human trafficking, kidnapping and extortion, and just sick depraved violence. ISIS took inspiration from how Mexican cartels operate, fucking ISIS. And you're comparing them to the mafia during prohibition?
These people care about making money first and foremost. If a legitimate market allows them to make money, why wouldnt they use it?
No these motherfuckers are all about power, as money is just a means to an end. There are legitimate markets for them to participate in right now, so why aren't they using them? What sort of logic is this even?
 
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crowbrow

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You're not telling me anything I don't already know. I don't see how legalizing highly addictive hard narcotics for recreational use and putting US citizens at risk is somehow a good idea
Letting the status quo stay like it is, is an even worse idea. At least if you legalize you get some control and you transform the criminal problem into a health Problem so get rid of the violence. The big majority of drug users in the world are not addicts. You can use the money from taxes generated from legitimate drugs businesses to treat addiction, promote prevention and make sure users consume quality clean products instead of whatever the black market offers them now which increase the risk of problems.

Once the rate of drug addiction and drug related deaths sky rockets in the US, and the cartels move onto other illicit black markets to make up loss profits, what then?
Drugs were decriminalized in Portugal, consumption didnt skyrocket. Also several drugs are available legally in Holland and addiction Rates are not particularly higher than other countries. So the examples we have seem to go against your assumption.

One of the biggest most consistent issues is that some parties in the US are selling weapons to Mexican cartels. Between third party sellers and CIA cowboys, there needs to be an effort to locate, reprimand, and arrest them.
That's true but tell me exactly how are you going to arrest the CIA?
 

Super Mario

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Ok but right now the biggest demand of drugs in the world is in the US, while the biggest supplier is in its border: Mexico. Yes, ideally, if you can control the demand then supply goes down and suppliers lose
It's funny, because even with those cold, hard facts you presented, there's an entire political party here that says protecting this border is the biggest waste of money there is. Think about that for a second.

Money and power. But what is exactly the plan to do that? The US hasnt done much in that regard and it doesn't seem they have a plausible plan. Drug use is in all times high. So if the demand is apparently incontrollable and the supply even more so, just make the thing legitimate and get rid of the senseless violence, tax drug trade and use the money to deal with drug-related health issues including prevention. Right now the "solutions" being used are nonsense and the problem becomes bigger and bigger. And, like i said, yeah the Mafia kept existing but they reached their peak power under prohibition of alcohol for obvious reasons. Back then they had legs in the government, police, etc. After switching to less profitting markets they lost most control and violence went down considerably.
We really don't have a plan. The plan is if we find if through our traditional checks, it gets seized, and you get arrested. Some Liberals have gone towards the path of legalization and handing out needles now. Now you have cities full of junkies with needles everywhere.

Look at what the Philippines did. They have drastically reduced drugs through a zero-tolerance approach. Imagine if our penalties were tough for traffickers instead of getting a slap on the wrist and being labeled a "non-violent drug user".

Also, you will never solve all crime. Every type of crime we try to prevent, is happening as we speak. However, you can reduce a whole lot when the consequences are tough and consistent.
 
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crowbrow

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I don't think you understand how absolutely fucking depraved these cartels are. You're comparing the mafia to waring drug cartels that are also involved in child prostitution, human trafficking, kidnapping and extortion, and just sick depraved violence. ISIS took inspiration from how Mexican cartels operate, fucking ISIS. And you're comparing them to thee mafia during prohibition?
Well it's the best example we have. And how does the level of violence have to do with how the Mafia lost influence and power with the legalization of alcohol? Those are two separate things. Also cartels used to be less ruthless, while in colombia their tactics we're similar to the Mafia. The war on drugs just made them more and more ruthless so why keep doing the same shit that isnt working? At least with the Mafia we have some hope that smth similar could work because it worked with them.

No these motherfuckers are all about power, as money is just a means to an end. There are legitimate markets for them to participate in right now, so why aren't they using them? What sort of logic is this even?
Go look into the biographies of most drug dealers. Before becoming head of their organizations many of them were just simple, uneducated, poor people that sold lotery or whatever on the streets. They started with drug selling because it was part of their context and because there was not much choice for them. They basically fill a niche, If they get the opportunity to earn so much Money through legitimate means and not have to hide and surround themselves with an army all the time they will most likely choose that option because it was not an option back when they started selling drugs.
 

crowbrow

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The Mafia wasn't in a Mafia state, simple as that. It was in a serious country, not Mexico or Brazil.
Even so the mafia had ties in the police and governments. Maybe it wasn't as widespread as in Mexico but they did and that influence disappeared when they lost power through legalization of alcohol.
 

Somnium

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Letting the status quo stay like it is, is an even worse idea. At least if you legalize you get some control and you transform the criminal problem into a health Problem so get rid of the violence. The big majority of drug users in the world are not addicts. You can use the money from taxes generated from legitimate drugs businesses to treat addiction, promote prevention and make sure users consume quality clean products instead of whatever the black market offers them now which increase the risk of problems.
What you're proposing sounds insane. Might as well set mountains of money on fire, you'd achieve the same results. The majority of drug users in the world are not addicts? According to what? What types of drugs are they consuming? It sounds like you're conflating all manner of drugs, which includes marijuna and DMT and mushrooms with highly addictive hard narcotics. How do you even account for 7 billion humans?

If the "status quo" is to not have half of the USA population become drug addicts, then I'm all for that. I'm also for the literal obliteration of Mexican cartels with force.
President Trump reached out, but the President of Mexico pretty much gave the most bullshit response I've ever seen. So I imagine he'd bought and payed for.

Drugs were decriminalized in Portugal, consumption didnt skyrocket. Also several drugs are available legally in Holland and addiction Rates are not particularly higher than other countries. So the examples we have seem to go against your assumption.
What drugs were legalized? Would appreciate if you provided some links to some data on that one.
That's true but tell me exactly how are you going to arrest the CIA?
How exactly? I don't work for the federal government, so I'm not equipped to explain the logistic of how we go about doing that. Although, an investigation would be a great start.
Corruption is often a dance between two parties. and sometimes more.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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President Trump reached out, but the President of Mexico pretty much gave the most bullshit response I've ever seen. So I imagine he'd bought and payed for.
Amidst all the bluster and threats, I am wondering if Obrador's public response is really all Trump was after.

Sometimes making corrupt politicians comment on something instead of staying silent is enough of a push. Trump has used the tactic successfully against Democrats dozens of times already.
 
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Cucked SoyBoy

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When some kind of crisis happens, everyone runs around shouting "We have to Do Something!" Sometimes the correct course of action is to do nothing. Or in this case, to do nothing towards Mexico. Whatever happens in Mexico is Mexico's problem. Solving Mexico's problem is not our business. Keeping Mexico's problems out of our hair should be our focus.

We need to finish building the Wall, preferably two Walls with a road between them. Bring our military back from the middle east and Europe, have them set up several new bases along the southern border. Army guys can patrol up and down between the fences looking for border-crossers. Use satellites, drones, whatever it takes.

Any adult male approaching the Wall is considered cartel and will be shot. Women and children will be captured and returned to the mexican authorities at a pre-arranged transfer point. End of story.
 
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crowbrow

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You're comparing two completely different situations:

- Mafia was in large part a repository for existing seedy groups brought in via mass immigration and mass unemployment during the era
- Prohibition didn't last even 15 years. Compare that to the "drug war".
- The substance in question (alcohol) was already legal, widespread, and well-entrenched across numerous cultures.
- The Mafia didn't lose its influence or power. It transitioned into more lucrative markets like illicit drugs, weapon trade, Union graft, and so forth
Even though the situations are not exactly similar, it is one of the closest examples we have. Show me an example of where the drug war has functioned or a full out war has been able to control drug trade that is comparable to the situation in Mexico then?

Drug use is also widespread in almost every culture in the world BTW.
The Mafia did lose influence and power, even if they moved to other businesses their weakening is well documented.

I am questioning the sanity of letting them use it. If the goal is to eliminate corruption, giving these criminals an amnesty to enter a highly-lucrative market would not purge their corruption, it would enable it. When competition within this market heats up, do you think they'll abide by the laws and regulations you hope to implement?
I think is even more insane to keep the status quo. There are many psychos and bad people in legitimate businesses, some of the people on top of mining and oil companies are probably assholes and evil but they are kept in check by the market rules. If they get out of those rules their businesses could lose influence and power. The same with drugs, you can't control the ethics of people heading companies and businesses but that's why the market and governments sets rules and regulations to keep them in check. And, normally, if they can stick to the rules they will profit, certainly much better if they decide to make a rogue army and go hide in the mountains while legitimate drug companies are making businesses in the cities. Tell me, how do you think a black market alcohol seller fairs next to companies like Budweiser or similar?

Show me how legalization eliminated cartels. If you insist on following historical precedent, then I'd like to see examples of where entrenched corruption was removed after previously-illegal markets were made legal.
I already showed the primary example we have of this: the mafia and alcohol legalization. I never said it will eliminate cartels, I said it will weaken them just as it weakened the mafia in power and influence and, subsequently, violence diminished considerably. With drug cartels it hasn't been tried yet, so if the closest example we have of legalization was positive, why not try it?

I am suggesting the opposite: drone strike the production facilities, the boats, the planes, the actual production and transit of these substances and leave the cities alone.
Again that was also tried with the war on drugs and in hasn't worked. You know they now use fucking submarines to transport drugs? If it were so easy why hasn't it worked in decades? I put the same challenge you put me on the point before, show me where bombing facilities, destroyed planes and transports has eliminated or weekened the proliferation of cartels. We have multiple examples of such tactics used in Latin America for the past decades and where has brought us to?
 

DunDunDunpachi

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Even though the situations are not exactly similar, it is one of the closest examples we have. Show me an example of where the drug war has functioned or a full out war has been able to control drug trade that is comparable to the situation in Mexico then?

Drug use is also widespread in almost every culture in the world BTW.
The Mafia did lose influence and power, even if they moved to other businesses their weakening is well documented.


I think is even more insane to keep the status quo. There are many psychos and bad people in legitimate businesses, some of the people on top of mining and oil companies are probably assholes and evil but they are kept in check by the market rules. If they get out of those rules their businesses could lose influence and power. The same with drugs, you can't control the ethics of people heading companies and businesses but that's why the market and governments sets rules and regulations to keep them in check. And, normally, if they can stick to the rules they will profit, certainly much better if they decide to make a rogue army and go hide in the mountains while legitimate drug companies are making businesses in the cities. Tell me, how do you think a black market alcohol seller fairs next to companies like Budweiser or similar?


I already showed the primary example we have of this: the mafia and alcohol legalization. I never said it will eliminate cartels, I said it will weaken them just as it weakened the mafia in power and influence and, subsequently, violence diminished considerably. With drug cartels it hasn't been tried yet, so if the closest example we have of legalization was positive, why not try it?


Again that was also tried with the war on drugs and in hasn't worked. You know they now use fucking submarines to transport drugs? If it were so easy why hasn't it worked in decades? I put the same challenge you put me on the point before, show me where bombing facilities, destroyed planes and transports has eliminated or weekened the proliferation of cartels. We have multiple examples of such tactics used in Latin America for the past decades and where has brought us to?
I am not suggesting that we maintain status quo.

I am suggesting that your course of action is bound to fail.
 

FMXVII

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Even though the situations are not exactly similar, it is one of the closest examples we have. Show me an example of where the drug war has functioned or a full out war has been able to control drug trade that is comparable to the situation in Mexico then?

Drug use is also widespread in almost every culture in the world BTW.
The Mafia did lose influence and power, even if they moved to other businesses their weakening is well documented.


I think is even more insane to keep the status quo. There are many psychos and bad people in legitimate businesses, some of the people on top of mining and oil companies are probably assholes and evil but they are kept in check by the market rules. If they get out of those rules their businesses could lose influence and power. The same with drugs, you can't control the ethics of people heading companies and businesses but that's why the market and governments sets rules and regulations to keep them in check. And, normally, if they can stick to the rules they will profit, certainly much better if they decide to make a rogue army and go hide in the mountains while legitimate drug companies are making businesses in the cities. Tell me, how do you think a black market alcohol seller fairs next to companies like Budweiser or similar?


I already showed the primary example we have of this: the mafia and alcohol legalization. I never said it will eliminate cartels, I said it will weaken them just as it weakened the mafia in power and influence and, subsequently, violence diminished considerably. With drug cartels it hasn't been tried yet, so if the closest example we have of legalization was positive, why not try it?


Again that was also tried with the war on drugs and in hasn't worked. You know they now use fucking submarines to transport drugs? If it were so easy why hasn't it worked in decades? I put the same challenge you put me on the point before, show me where bombing facilities, destroyed planes and transports has eliminated or weekened the proliferation of cartels. We have multiple examples of such tactics used in Latin America for the past decades and where has brought us to?
No - this is not analogous at all.

The Mafia gained its foothold in America through Prohibition, not through alcohol itself.

The U.S. government deciding to step in and hard ban a substance that the overwhelming majority of U.S. adults and young adults enjoyed, and had enjoyed since its inception, caused it.

It was the act of taking it away that caused the problem.

Human Psyche and all.
 
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Liberty4all

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Serious question, and I do feel bad for the horrors this family had happen to the,. But if you’re a bunch of white Mormons, what the fuck are you doing living in Mexico?

I was born and raised in SoCal, I remember a time when Mexico wasn’t a dangerous place to go, but that was a long time ago. These cartels have been warring for the last decade or so and you can find incident after incident ad nauseum of horrific killings and murders occurring there.

I lived in Arizona for 23 years as well, and I saw friends stupidly cross the border and get shaken down by the Federales too. Even the good guys there are bad. Still, it takes an idiot to not see that people are flooding out of that place and not wonder why. Mexico is a dangerous place, and if you willingly place your family there, you’re placing them in danger and what happens to them is on you. That’s my take here. It’s still a tragedy, but these people are stupid for having been there to begin with. At some point, you have to take accountability for your own safety.
I would never live in Mexico obviously but for vacations, Cancun and the Maya Riviera (playa del carmen, Cozumel, etc) seems fairly safe in the tourist zones. I vacation down there every few years.

My understanding is that it's the west side of the country that's a shit show.
 
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Ornlu

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I would never live in Mexico obviously but for vacations, Cancun and the Maya Riviera (playa del carmen, Cozumel, etc) seems fairly safe in the tourist zones. I vacation down there every few years.

My understanding is that it's the west side of the country that's a shit show.
Not entirely true, IMO. The cartels directly own most if not resort/vacation properties in the country. It's a great way for them to launder money.

Also, nowhere in Mexico is really safe. I go down to Monterrey (the wealthiest city in the country, for context) about once a year for work; even there you talk to people and even in nicer areas people are being kidnapped, extorted, killed, etc.

It happens less in some spots, and the Mexican tourist economy has no reason or inclination to accurately report crime in areas where they depend on tourist dollars.
 

crowbrow

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The majority of drug users in the world are not addicts? According to what? What types of drugs are they consuming?
According to data. Only 5% of illicit drug users have addiction problems: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3134413/

If the "status quo" is to not have half of the USA population become drug addicts, then I'm all for that. I'm also for the literal obliteration of Mexican cartels with force.
President Trump reached out, but the President of Mexico pretty much gave the most bullshit response I've ever seen. So I imagine he'd bought and payed for.
You tell me my idea is nonsense and then you come to this even more nonsensical one. How exactly would you obliterated these cartels if the war on drugs have been trying to do that for decades? Are you proposing to carpet bomb the mexican population? The mexican president said no because he knows that that is a nonsense proposal which is not plausible.

What drugs were legalized? Would appreciate if you provided some links to some data on that one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal

Here even soft decriminalization managed to decrease health-related problems with drug use.

The drug policy of Portugal was put in place in 2001, and was legally effective from July 2001. The new law maintained the status of illegality for using or possessing any drug for personal use without authorization. However, the offense was changed from a criminal one, with prison as possible punishment, to an administrative one if the amount possessed was no more than a ten-day supply of that substance.[1]

In April 2009, the Cato Institute published a White Paper about the "decriminalization" of drugs in Portugal,[2] paid for by the Marijuana Policy Project [3] Data about the heroin usage rates of 13-16-year-olds from EMCDDA were used to claim that "decriminalization" has had no adverse effect on drug usage rates. However, drug-related pathologies - such as sexually transmitted diseases and deaths due to drug usage - have decreased dramatically.[2][4][5]
How exactly? I don't work for the federal government, so I'm not equipped to explain the logistic of how we go about doing that. Although, an investigation would be a great start.
Corruption is often a dance between two parties. and sometimes more.
So, no plan? Ok, yeah so keep the status quo basically for some other decades while the cartels celebrate their murdering parties with each passing year... In prefer actual plans not wishful thinking.