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War on Cartels? Large Mormon family slaughtered, raped, burned alive in Sonora, Trump responds.

crowbrow

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I am suggesting that your course of action is bound to fail.
I don't see a viable alternative from you. You claim my proposal wouldn't work yet you propose stuff that has been tried for decades and it hasn't worked while my proposal at least worked with the mafia.
 

crowbrow

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No - this is not analogous at all.

The Mafia gained its foothold in America through Prohibition, not through alcohol itself.

The U.S. government deciding to step in and hard ban a substance that the overwhelming majority of U.S. adults and young adults enjoyed, and had enjoyed since its inception, caused it.

It was the act of taking it away that caused the problem.

Human Psyche and all.
That's not so different from drugs though. Drugs are widely used by a large part of the population and the cartels have gained power thanks to their prohibition. That's why legalization might just work as it did with alcohol.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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I don't see a viable alternative from you. You claim my proposal wouldn't work yet you propose stuff that has been tried for decades and it hasn't worked while my proposal at least worked with the mafia.
I suggested waiting, in the short term. Action isn't required now. Blundering into major action would be a mistake.

I'd be willing to compromise and send drones to destroy their methods of production, transport, and distribution.

Legitimizing a bunch of cartels will not result in a positive outcome.
 
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FMXVII

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That's not so different from drugs though. Drugs are widely used by a large part of the population and the cartels have gained power thanks to their prohibition. That's why legalization might just work as it did with alcohol.
Drugs aren't THAT mainstream... at least they weren't before the pharmaceutical companies started hooking the general populace on opiate scripts prescribed by Big Pharma's whores, the general practitioners of America.

Alcohol was literally a part of life for 99% of America when it was suddenly yanked away.

OF COURSE it was going to be met with outright "illegal" resistance, leaving an opening ripe for criminal organizations to exploit.
 
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crowbrow

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I suggested waiting, in the short term. Action isn't required now. Blundering into major action would be a mistake.

I'd be willing to compromise and send drones to destroy their methods of production, transport, and distribution.

Legitimizing a bunch of cartels will not result in a positive outcome.
Decades of waiting, selective attacks and violence have done practically nothing while a true effort at legalization and regulation has never even been put on the table. Even if slow, I think these options should start to be discussed seriously.
 

crowbrow

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Drugs aren't THAT mainstream...
Oh man, I think you're highly mistaken. How do you think cartels have so much money in the first place and why so many people are involved in the illegal drug market? Because there's a shit ton of people paying for drugs on a daily basis.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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Decades of waiting, selective attacks and violence have done practically nothing while a true effort at legalization and regulation has never even been put on the table.
This is untrue. Legalization and regulation have both been tried in numerous other countries, which is why I asked if you could please cite some examples where legalization and regulation helped push corruption out of the government.

You have as of yet failed to rise to this challenge.

Even if slow, I think these options should start to be discussed seriously.
The discussion would be short: "have these methods been used successfully to root out corruption? No? Okay then let's go back to discussing the realistic options".
 

FMXVII

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Oh man, I think you're highly mistaken. How do you think cartels have so much money in the first place and why so many people are involved in the illegal drug market? Because there's a shit ton of people paying for drugs on a daily basis.
Hard drugs are expensive.

That helps.

Maybe they are widespread in a lot of places, including where you are from... dunno. I haven't encountered them more than 4 times, in passing (pun intended).

What I do know, is that the Mafia looks like law-abiding kittens compared to the cartels.

Nothing good shall ever come of the cartels... unless you'd call the fall of Western Civilization a perk.
.
 
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crowbrow

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Legalization and regulation have both been tried in numerous other countries
Where exactly? I am not aware of any country in the world that has tried to legalize and regulate all drugs. The main example here is with the drug alcohol during the prohibition era and some partial legalization and regulation of cannabis as far as I'm aware.

The discussion would be short: "have these methods been used successfully to root out corruption? No? Okay then let's go back to discussing the realistic options".
Can you point me to the sources that prove the answer "No" is the correct one? And we are talking about rooting out violence from cartels mainly.
 

crowbrow

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Hard drugs are expensive.

That helps.

Maybe they are widespread in a lot of places, including where you are from... dunno. I haven't encountered them more than 4 times, in passing (pun intended).

What I do know, is that the Mafia looks like law-abiding kittens compared to the cartels.

Nothing good shall ever come of the cartels... unless you'd call the fall of Western Civilization a perk.
.
That's why if legalization of alcohol managed to diminish the power of the mafia, then maybe legalization of drugs can diminish the power of cartels and weaker drug cartels are a good thing. Right now prohibition is keeping them basically strong and powerful by given them a market where to profit from.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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Where exactly? I am not aware of any country in the world that has tried to legalize and regulate all drugs. The main example here is with the drug alcohol during the prohibition era and some partial legalization and regulation of cannabis as far as I'm aware.

Can you point me to the sources that prove the answer "No" is the correct one? And we are talking about rooting out violence from cartels mainly.
Actually, please point me to the sources that prove "yes, we should try legalization" is the correct one.

Burden of proof is on the person suggesting a course of action. It isn't my job to talk you out of your own ideas.

However, I have generously included many examples and explanation for my standpoint so far in the thread. It would go a long way if you could actually... you know... back up your assertions (for once, I know I'm expecting a lot out of you) instead of continually replying with lazy, low-effort bait.
 
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highrider

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Disagree with Trump here. The only way we could have lasting control over that is by permanent military presence. Mexico should handle Mexico. Cartel violence and the existence of cartels is pretty much a by-product of corruption and a government unable to enforce law. You roll in with the 82nd and wipe out the cartels they will just be replaced by new ones, with the cops getting paid off as well as elected officials.
 
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FMXVII

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That's why if legalization of alcohol managed to diminish the power of the mafia, then maybe legalization of drugs can diminish the power of cartels and weaker drug cartels are a good thing. Right now prohibition is keeping them basically strong and powerful by given them a market where to profit from.
Nope.

The Cartels will just switch to the next big, evil money machine.

Human trafficking, child sex slavery, Disney Stocks, etc.
 

Platinumstorm

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Couldn't we make a bigger impact by eliminating violence domestically? I'm somewhat perturbed that this is being viewed at as a breaking point with potential worthiness of military invasion, and we can't even sort out our own violence, and we are ignoring that Jeffery Epstein didn't kill himself.
 

crowbrow

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Ok but can you at least provide specific examples where it hasn't worked to root out violence?

Actually, please point me to the sources that prove "yes, we should try legalization" is the correct one.
I already provided the example with the legalization and regulation of alcohol that took power away from the mafia and diminished violence. So that's one specific example provided by me vs 0 by you. Can you point towards a specific counter-example? Unless you're full of shit which wouldn't surprise me actually.
 

crowbrow

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Nope.

The Cartels will just switch to the next big, evil money machine.

Human trafficking, child sex slavery, Disney Stocks, etc.
The Mafia also switched but no other market provided them with so much money and power than alcohol. The same with drugs for cartels, non of the other markets they are into provide them even a fraction of money and power than the one provided by drugs. Hell the main source of them becoming so powerful was drug trade in the first place, not sex slavery or human trafficking.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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I already provided the example with the legalization and regulation of alcohol that took power away from the mafia and diminished violence. So that's one specific example provided by me vs 0 by you. Can you point towards a specific counter-example? Unless you're full of shit which wouldn't surprise me actually.
I can see I'm wasting my time, since I've already responded to your example.
 

crowbrow

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I can see I'm wasting my time, since I've already responded to your example.
I asked for one specific source, son, it shouldn't be so hard if you're not full of crap, but I can see you were talking shit like usual then. Thanks for making it obvious.
 

FMXVII

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Ok but can you at least provide specific examples where it hasn't worked to root out violence?



I already provided the example with the legalization and regulation of alcohol that took power away from the mafia and diminished violence. So that's one specific example provided by me vs 0 by you. Can you point towards a specific counter-example? Unless you're full of shit which wouldn't surprise me actually.
That example doesn't work.

I'll reiterate:

Alcohol was legal hundreds of years on the continent, and from the inception of the U.S.A. Pretty much the only people who didn't drink it, in some measure, were those whose religious beliefs forbade it. You can't just go and take away a substance that for all intents and purposes the entire population uses, and expect compliance.

Creating a crime out of a nigh universally accepted social act, begets criminality practically a priori.
 
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crowbrow

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Alcohol was legal hundreds of years on the contingent, and from the inception of the U.S.A. Pretty much the only people who didn't drink it, in some measure, were those whose religious beliefs forbade it. You can't just go and take away a substance that for all intents and purposes the entire population uses, and expect compliance.
Well you see a lot of lack of compliance in drug use even though it is illegal. Also drugs were not exactly illegal for most of the history of humanity, illegality of drugs is a pretty modern thing.
 

crowbrow

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You are riding a false equivalency.

That is the definition of dishonest debate.
No I'm not, he's saying that legalization and regulation of drugs has been proven not to work before and he has not provided even one example for that while I, at least, has shown that it worked with alcohol and the mafia.
 

FMXVII

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Well you see a lot of lack of compliance in drug use even though it is illegal. Also drugs were not exactly illegal for most of the history of humanity, illegality of drugs is a pretty modern thing.
Once again, you are not addressing the points being made.


Alcohol was legal AND used, in one measure or another, by the overwhelming majority of the U.S. populace.

The majority of the U.S. in 1920 wasn't sucking on a pipe in a Chinese opium den, no matter how hard you try to wish it into being.
 
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crowbrow

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Alcohol was legal AND used, in one measure or another, by the overwhelming majority of the U.S. populace.
Ok but how will that difference proof that cartels won't lose power when legalization and regulation takes place? How are you jumping from that to the negative conclusion? I mean the majority of power and money obtained from the cartels comes from drugs as the majority of money and power of mafia came from alcohol, so why wouldn't it work with the cartels?

The majority of the U.S. in 1920 wasn't sucking on a pipe in a Chinese opium den, no matter how hard you try to wish it into being.
And it doesn't take the majority of people to make drug cartels some of the most powerful and profitable illegal black markets ever.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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No I'm not, he's saying that legalization and regulation of drugs has been proven not to work before and he has not provided even one example for that while I, at least, has shown that it worked with alcohol and the mafia.
I didn't say that at all.

Reading comprehension isn't your forte. You make it really obvious that you are more interested in pushing a narrative than honest discussion when you have to misrepresent my argument in order to salvage any credibility.

Like I said, huge waste of my time. Thanks for the laugh, as usual. Maybe someday I will actually be rewarded with intelligent conversation when trying to engage with you. Alas, today is not that day.

Write it down in your diary that you put a "spoiled child" over the internet in their place. :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
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crowbrow

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I didn't say that at all.

Reading comprehension isn't your forte. You make it really obvious that you are more interested in pushing a narrative than honest discussion when you have to misrepresent my argument in order to salvage any credibility.

Like I said, huge waste of my time. Thanks for the laugh, as usual. Maybe someday I will actually be rewarded with intelligent conversation when trying to engage with you. Alas, today is not that day.

Write it down in your diary that you put a "spoiled child" over the internet in their place. :messenger_tears_of_joy:
So what does this mean?

The discussion would be short: "have these methods been used successfully to root out corruption? No? Okay then let's go back to discussing the realistic options".
Doesn't that mean you think they don't work? If not, i think you have serious trouble with the english language or your brain or both.
 
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Ok but right now the biggest demand of drugs in the world is in the US, while the biggest supplier is in its border: Mexico. Yes, ideally, if you can control the demand then supply goes down and suppliers lose Money and power. But what is exactly the plan to do that? The US hasnt done much in that regard and it doesn't seem they have a plausible plan. Drug use is in all times high. So if the demand is apparently incontrollable and the supply even more so, just make the thing legitimate and get rid of the senseless violence, tax drug trade and use the money to deal with drug-related health issues including prevention. Right now the "solutions" being used are nonsense and the problem becomes bigger and bigger. And, like i said, yeah the Mafia kept existing but they reached their peak power under prohibition of alcohol for obvious reasons. Back then they had legs in the government, police, etc. After switching to less profitting markets they lost most control and violence went down considerably.
Im not trying to be combative, but I implore you to brush up on your history of the Mafia. Prohibition and the aftermath forced them to restructure and from there, their power and influence grew. As someone said above, they didn't lose power or influence. They controlled unions. They ran legit businesses and industries, they were involved in illicit businesses still, and involved at high levels of government. They also lived by a strict code that these Cartels seem to completely ignore.

The difference is there was a massive, concerted effort to tear down the big players and that is what loosened the grip the Mafia had.

The access to an insane arsenal of weaponry, and tech does not help when trying to combat, so that's a major difference to consider when taking out these syndicates.
 
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Madonis

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The War on Drugs has never stopped, so nothing is going to change by re-declaring it now.

I think most drugs are poison, but I also think the single greatest harm is caused by prohibition.

Why? Because it allows for the mafia/cartels and murderers like these to become dangerous, rich and powerful.

You can cut off a dozen mafia boss heads and another dozen will grow back. They can all be replaced.

If not full legalization, then at least drug decriminalization and regulation is absolutely necessary.

The current approach isn't working and sending in more military/police to the border is just a band aid.
 
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crowbrow

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As someone said above, they didn't lose power or influence. They controlled unions. They ran legit businesses and industries
Ok but if they moved to legit businesses then they were more in a regulated market. Did the violence decrease after the prohibition ended? Because even if cartel memebers enter legit businesses after legalization then that is a positive since they would need to leave out violence at least with legitimate business.

The difference is there was a massive, concerted effort to tear down the big players and that is what loosened the grip the Mafia had.
But do you know the history of the cartels? Basically there has been concerted efforts to tear down big players. Why do you think Escobar was killed and El Chapo is now in jail? The problem here is that each time you target one of the big fish and get him two or three more sadistic ones pop into place. So a concerted effort to tear down big players has certainly not worked.
 
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Madonis

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Ok but if they moved to legit businesses then they were more in a regulated market. Did the violence decrease after the prohibition ended? Because even if cartel memebers enter legit businesses after legalization then that is a positive since they would need to leave out violence at least with legitimate business.
Even in the worst case scenario, it would still be an improvement over what's happening right now.

Drugs being illegal hasn't stopped consumers from finding ways to buy them...and thus they fuel the cartels.
 
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Liberty4all

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Not entirely true, IMO. The cartels directly own most if not resort/vacation properties in the country. It's a great way for them to launder money.

Also, nowhere in Mexico is really safe. I go down to Monterrey (the wealthiest city in the country, for context) about once a year for work; even there you talk to people and even in nicer areas people are being kidnapped, extorted, killed, etc.

It happens less in some spots, and the Mexican tourist economy has no reason or inclination to accurately report crime in areas where they depend on tourist dollars.
I'll be in Cozumel off a cruise ship for one day this December. I hadn't really looked at the security situation there in a few years so I'll check it out. I'm supposed to be going to a private island beach day excursion offered by the cruise line... Hopefully it's ok. Will have my 1 year old with me and wife.
 

crowbrow

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Even in the worst case scenario, it would still be an improvement over what's happening right now.

Drugs being illegal hasn't stopped consumers from finding ways to buy them...and thus they fuel the cartels.
I believe so too, it can't get much worse than it is now. Besides legalization can create jobs and taxes to use to solve other health-related issues. From all the possible solutions, legalization and regulation is the one that brings more benefits to the table. The rest seem like fantasies.
 
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Bolivar687

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There was another piece by the NYTimes to explain their religious fundamentalism. Why are they shifting this focus to the victims' beliefs? The NBC News one almost makes it sound like these poor people were a part of despicable polygamists who had it coming.

How is our media so subversive and evil?

Edit: wtf!?


Are they really trying to downplay cartel violence heading into an election year?
 
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Ok but if they moved to legit businesses then they were more in a regulated market. Did the violence decrease after the prohibition ended? Because even if cartel memebers enter legit businesses after legalization then that is a positive since they would need to leave out violence at least with legitimate business.


But do you know the history of the cartels? Basically there has been concerted efforts to tear down big players. Why do you think Escobar was killed and El Chapo is now in jail? The problem here is that each time you target one of the big fish and get him two or three more sadistic ones pop into place. So a concerted effort to tear down big players has certainly not worked.
Just like the Cartels, the legitimate businesses were mostly for laundering. Didn't waiver their power, but like I said, they lived by a stricter code and the violence was very calculated.

Escobar is ancient history compared to these new breed of psychotics. I've seen enough deplorable cartel videos, read enough to know recent history.

My only point in chiming is, is that your Mafia analogy just does not work here because you're ignoring decades of post-Prohibition might that they exercised. I don't know the answers to fixing this problem but there has to be something. I know I will never step foot in that country or region of America until it's been eradicated. And that bums me out.
 

Ornlu

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I'll be in Cozumel off a cruise ship for one day this December. I hadn't really looked at the security situation there in a few years so I'll check it out. I'm supposed to be going to a private island beach day excursion offered by the cruise line... Hopefully it's ok. Will have my 1 year old with me and wife.
You should be good if you stay all-inclusive style; there's a lot less danger that way. But for sure going off on your own around town(s) etc. isn't advised. Be safe, man! I hope all goes well for you, and you have a good time.
 
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autoduelist

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When alcohol became legal the huge illegal trade market for alcohol and the mafia became weak. Sure illegal alcohol trade still exists but the vast majority of consumers chose the safe and regulated option for obvious reasons. So there's evidence that goes contrary to what you're claiming here.
Factually false, more below.

If this is true then why did the Mafia lose most of their power with the legalization of alcohol? Sure many of them moved to other illegal business ventures but the profitability of alcohol was such that nothing could match that much money and power. The Mafia is a prime example why this could work.
This simply is not true. Like, straight up wrong and you are actively spreading misinformation and using this misinformation to form your opinion on this subject. The example you are using, in fact, fundamentally undermines your entire position in this thread.

Prohibition was from 1920 to 1933. The Golden Years of the Mafia weren't until the 50s through 80s. Their fall had literally nothing to do with the end of Prohibition.

It's true Prohibition backfired and empowered local gangs, and caused organized crime to skyrocket. These were definitely the formative years of the mafia and organized crime in the US. But by the end of Prohibition they were fully functioning, multi-industry businesses.

Heck, the FBI didn't even form til 1935. Previously, the Bureau of Investigation's G-Men took on high profile local gangsters like Capone, but Capone was taken down for tax evasion in '31, just when the Mafia was gearing up it's national presence [The Castellammarese War was in the late 20s, and that ultimately ended up forming the Mafia as we know it in the early 30s. That is to say, the Mafia as we know it (a national Commission) didn't even exist until Prohibition was on its way out.] Hoover denied the existence of the Mafia til 1957 when he was forced to confront it.

This is a decent high level article on the mafia... there are better books, but i will use this for quotes.


With the repeal of Prohibition in 1933, the Mafia moved beyond bootlegging and into a range of underworld activities, from illegal gambling to loan-sharking to prostitution rings. The Mafia also sunk its tentacles into labor unions and legitimate businesses, including construction, garbage collection, trucking, restaurants and nightclubs and the New York garment industry, and raked in enormous profits through kickbacks and protection shakedowns. Instrumental to the Mafia’s success was its ability to bribe corrupt public officials and business leaders, along with witnesses and juries in court cases.
The first crack was when the FBI finally got a member to flip, and break omertà, the code of silence, in the late 50s. This was major. But the real beginning of the end for the Mafia [if we want to believe they are gone] was the 1970 RICO act and a direct, heavy assault on them from the Federal Government. The cracks in omertà, in combination with RICO, allowed the FBI to exert even more power, and more flipped on each other to avoid prosecution. Once they were disrupted, other organized gangs quickly moved in and created a lot of competition, further weakening the Mafia. This finally culminated in the Mafia Commission Trials of 1987, where they finally took down the Teflon don, John Gotti.

Here's a short but sweet article on this:


But honestly, forget articles. Read Cosa Nostra: A History of the Sicilian Mafia by John Dickie.

Tldr: you're wrong and this undermines your entire position on the subject.
 

TheContact

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I'll be in Cozumel off a cruise ship for one day this December. I hadn't really looked at the security situation there in a few years so I'll check it out. I'm supposed to be going to a private island beach day excursion offered by the cruise line... Hopefully it's ok. Will have my 1 year old with me and wife.
You're way more likely to die from drowning than any cartel related issue in Cozumel. It's really just the border towns that are the most dangerous. Enjoy the diving! Beautiful place!
 

Madonis

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Factually false, more below.



This simply is not true. Like, straight up wrong and you are actively spreading misinformation and using this misinformation to form your opinion on this subject. The example you are using, in fact, fundamentally undermines your entire position in this thread.

Prohibition was from 1920 to 1933. The Golden Years of the Mafia weren't until the 50s through 80s. Their fall had literally nothing to do with the end of Prohibition.

It's true Prohibition backfired and empowered local gangs, and caused organized crime to skyrocket. These were definitely the formative years of the mafia and organized crime in the US. But by the end of Prohibition they were fully functioning, multi-industry businesses.

Heck, the FBI didn't even form til 1935. Previously, the Bureau of Investigation's G-Men took on high profile local gangsters like Capone, but Capone was taken down for tax evasion in '31, just when the Mafia was gearing up it's national presence [The Castellammarese War was in the late 20s, and that ultimately ended up forming the Mafia as we know it in the early 30s. That is to say, the Mafia as we know it (a national Commission) didn't even exist until Prohibition was on its way out.] Hoover denied the existence of the Mafia til 1957 when he was forced to confront it.

This is a decent high level article on the mafia... there are better books, but i will use this for quotes.




The first crack was when the FBI finally got a member to flip, and break omertà, the code of silence, in the late 50s. This was major. But the real beginning of the end for the Mafia [if we want to believe they are gone] was the 1970 RICO act and a direct, heavy assault on them from the Federal Government. The cracks in omertà, in combination with RICO, allowed the FBI to exert even more power, and more flipped on each other to avoid prosecution. Once they were disrupted, other organized gangs quickly moved in and created a lot of competition, further weakening the Mafia. This finally culminated in the Mafia Commission Trials of 1987, where they finally took down the Teflon don, John Gotti.

Here's a short but sweet article on this:


But honestly, forget articles. Read Cosa Nostra: A History of the Sicilian Mafia by John Dickie.

Tldr: you're wrong and this undermines your entire position on the subject.
Let me ask this simple yet essential question:

Do you believe we would be better off, somehow, if that original Prohibition had continued until today?

And another one:

Do you believe the current drug policy approach is working or that violence will end the cartels?
 
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NickFire

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There was another piece by the NYTimes to explain their religious fundamentalism. Why are they shifting this focus to the victims' beliefs? The NBC News one almost makes it sound like these poor people were a part of despicable polygamists who had it coming.

How is our media so subversive and evil?

Edit: wtf!?


Are they really trying to downplay cartel violence heading into an election year?
Yes, that is exactly what they are doing and will do. Just like they denied there was a crisis at the border until after a deal for very little border control money was reached. They have no concerns for truth or the US best interests. Their sole concern is supporting the DNC agenda, and they will resist any narrative that might make Trump look right.
 

crowbrow

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Factually false, more below.



This simply is not true. Like, straight up wrong and you are actively spreading misinformation and using this misinformation to form your opinion on this subject. The example you are using, in fact, fundamentally undermines your entire position in this thread.

Prohibition was from 1920 to 1933. The Golden Years of the Mafia weren't until the 50s through 80s. Their fall had literally nothing to do with the end of Prohibition.

It's true Prohibition backfired and empowered local gangs, and caused organized crime to skyrocket. These were definitely the formative years of the mafia and organized crime in the US. But by the end of Prohibition they were fully functioning, multi-industry businesses.

Heck, the FBI didn't even form til 1935. Previously, the Bureau of Investigation's G-Men took on high profile local gangsters like Capone, but Capone was taken down for tax evasion in '31, just when the Mafia was gearing up it's national presence [The Castellammarese War was in the late 20s, and that ultimately ended up forming the Mafia as we know it in the early 30s. That is to say, the Mafia as we know it (a national Commission) didn't even exist until Prohibition was on its way out.] Hoover denied the existence of the Mafia til 1957 when he was forced to confront it.

This is a decent high level article on the mafia... there are better books, but i will use this for quotes.




The first crack was when the FBI finally got a member to flip, and break omertà, the code of silence, in the late 50s. This was major. But the real beginning of the end for the Mafia [if we want to believe they are gone] was the 1970 RICO act and a direct, heavy assault on them from the Federal Government. The cracks in omertà, in combination with RICO, allowed the FBI to exert even more power, and more flipped on each other to avoid prosecution. Once they were disrupted, other organized gangs quickly moved in and created a lot of competition, further weakening the Mafia. This finally culminated in the Mafia Commission Trials of 1987, where they finally took down the Teflon don, John Gotti.

Here's a short but sweet article on this:


But honestly, forget articles. Read Cosa Nostra: A History of the Sicilian Mafia by John Dickie.

Tldr: you're wrong and this undermines your entire position on the subject.
Ok fair enough, but all indicates that they gained power originally thanks to the foothold prohibition allowed them to get

https://www.history.com/topics/crime/mafia-in-the-united-states

"The American Mafia, an Italian-American organized-crime network with operations in cities across the United States, particularly New York and Chicago, rose to power through its success in the illicit liquor trade during the 1920s Prohibition era. "

Maybe legalization won't immediately get rid of the cartels but it definitely could harm their main source of income which are drugs.
 

oagboghi2

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If this is true then why did the Mafia lose most of their power with the legalization of alcohol? Sure many of them moved to other illegal business ventures but the profitability of alcohol was such that nothing could match that much money and power. The Mafia is a prime example why this could work.
They didn’t.

The mafia was still powerful decades after alcohol was legal. What killed the mafia wasn’t the end of prohibition. That is just some Hollywood fairy tale bullshit. What killed them was RICO, aka The federal government stomping on their neck.
 
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Gashtronomy

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You say this like the two are mutually exclusive. Sending fuck you missiles to savages lacking any semblance of humanity = removing a threat.


You're saying hitting them finically is where we star, sure they'll be affected to some extent. Marijuana is one thing, but that requires we also legalize hard narcotics. That isn't going to happen. State legalization of weed in the USA hasn't eliminated black markets. So I don't see how dealing deadly harmful and highly addictive narcotics to US citizens is not living in a fantasy world, frankly.

As already stated, these cartels are also involved other illicit blackmarkets, they have a grip hold on just about every institution in Mexico. Sooner or later war is needed to wipe them out. That needs to start with Mexicans first and foremost, they need to fight back for their country, not run. If the USA is fucked, then what?
I'm not talking about legalising it in America, but in Mexico.

What are your ideas for stopping the cartel? We've ruled out financial attacks and having boots on the ground...
 

oagboghi2

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There was another piece by the NYTimes to explain their religious fundamentalism. Why are they shifting this focus to the victims' beliefs? The NBC News one almost makes it sound like these poor people were a part of despicable polygamists who had it coming.

How is our media so subversive and evil?

Edit: wtf!?


Are they really trying to downplay cartel violence heading into an election year?
The press are the enemy of the American people.
 
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Madonis

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They didn’t.

The mafia was still powerful decades after alcohol was legal. What killed the mafia wasn’t the end of prohibition. That is just some Hollywood fairy tale bullshit. What killed them was RICO, aka The federal government stomping on their neck.
Prohibition wasn't helping things at all. RICO was successful after prohibition had ended.

The implication that RICO would have worked even under Prohibition seems doubtful.

Ending prohibition isn't a magic wand, but it's arguably a necessary step.
 
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autoduelist

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Let me ask this simple yet essential question:

Do you believe we would be better off, somehow, if that original Prohibition had continued until today?

And another one:

Do you believe the current drug policy approach is working or that violence will end the cartels?
No, and no. Neither of which has a thing to do with my post.
 
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autoduelist

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Ok fair enough, but all indicates that they gained power originally thanks to the foothold prohibition allowed them to get

https://www.history.com/topics/crime/mafia-in-the-united-states

"The American Mafia, an Italian-American organized-crime network with operations in cities across the United States, particularly New York and Chicago, rose to power through its success in the illicit liquor trade during the 1920s Prohibition era. "

Maybe legalization won't immediately get rid of the cartels but it definitely could harm their main source of income which are drugs.
Your logic does not follow.

We all agree Prohibition caused a rise in organized crime in the US. Everybody agrees with that.
However, you are asserting the end of Prohibition weakened or crippled them. It did not.

I know it 'feels' like it should have. But it did not, because once crime became that organized it had already corrupted multiple industries and the legalization of alchohol actually was well timed to increase their strength.

Consider this: when Prohibition ended, who do you think was in best position to corner the alcohol industry? Honest citizens who had closed down their entire operations? Or criminal organizations that already had working distilleries, supply lines, a lock on buyers in the industry, and a enforcer branch to ensure nobody switched manufactures and suppliers?

That is, the end of Prohibition did not end organized crime in the alchohol business, it just legitimized them and gave them a strong, united front as suit wearing businessmen as they overtook other industries, less ways to take them down, ways to launder other dirty money from prostitution, etc.

I am not arguing for Prohibition. That's silliness. It should never have been enacted. But that does not mean your understanding of what happened after Prohibition is correct.
 
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Factually false, more below.



This simply is not true. Like, straight up wrong and you are actively spreading misinformation and using this misinformation to form your opinion on this subject. The example you are using, in fact, fundamentally undermines your entire position in this thread.

Prohibition was from 1920 to 1933. The Golden Years of the Mafia weren't until the 50s through 80s. Their fall had literally nothing to do with the end of Prohibition.

It's true Prohibition backfired and empowered local gangs, and caused organized crime to skyrocket. These were definitely the formative years of the mafia and organized crime in the US. But by the end of Prohibition they were fully functioning, multi-industry businesses.

Heck, the FBI didn't even form til 1935. Previously, the Bureau of Investigation's G-Men took on high profile local gangsters like Capone, but Capone was taken down for tax evasion in '31, just when the Mafia was gearing up it's national presence [The Castellammarese War was in the late 20s, and that ultimately ended up forming the Mafia as we know it in the early 30s. That is to say, the Mafia as we know it (a national Commission) didn't even exist until Prohibition was on its way out.] Hoover denied the existence of the Mafia til 1957 when he was forced to confront it.

This is a decent high level article on the mafia... there are better books, but i will use this for quotes.




The first crack was when the FBI finally got a member to flip, and break omertà, the code of silence, in the late 50s. This was major. But the real beginning of the end for the Mafia [if we want to believe they are gone] was the 1970 RICO act and a direct, heavy assault on them from the Federal Government. The cracks in omertà, in combination with RICO, allowed the FBI to exert even more power, and more flipped on each other to avoid prosecution. Once they were disrupted, other organized gangs quickly moved in and created a lot of competition, further weakening the Mafia. This finally culminated in the Mafia Commission Trials of 1987, where they finally took down the Teflon don, John Gotti.

Here's a short but sweet article on this:


But honestly, forget articles. Read Cosa Nostra: A History of the Sicilian Mafia by John Dickie.

Tldr: you're wrong and this undermines your entire position on the subject.
Appreciate all the sources that my phone and time prevented me from competently posting.

An interesting bit about Hoover, and 1957 for others that probably aren't aware. This coincided directly with a prolific summit that was busted up in Appalachian NY. I grew up about 15 minutes from Appalachin. Had relatives at this meeting who didn't get caught. It consisted of the ruling Mafia families, from all over, including Sicily. Bufalino (Pesci plays him in Scorsese's new movie) was in attendance. State troopers got wind of it and busted it and a fair amount got captured. Up until this, the Mafia was not acknowledged as much if anything.

Really, Mexico leaders and law enforcement need to step up beyond what they're capable of to fix the domestic issues. In that way, The situations are similar, but the corruption and fear is so deeply embedded I believe it is next to impossible.
 
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crowbrow

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Your logic does not follow.

We all agree Prohibition caused a rise in organized crime in the US. Everybody agrees with that.
However, you are asserting the end of Prohibition weakened or crippled them. It did not.

I know it 'feels' like it should have. But it did not, because once crime became that organized it had already corrupted multiple industries and the legalization of alchohol actually was well timed to increase their strength.

Consider this: when Prohibition ended, who do you think was in best position to corner the alcohol industry? Honest citizens who had closed down their entire operations? Or criminal organizations that already had working distilleries, supply lines, a lock on buyers in the industry, and a enforcer branch to ensure nobody switched manufactures and suppliers?

That is, the end of Prohibition did not end organized crime in the alchohol business, it just legitimized them and gave them a strong, united front as suit wearing businessmen as they overtook other industries, less ways to take them down, ways to launder other dirty money from prostitution, etc.

I am not arguing for Prohibition. That's silliness. It should never have been enacted. But that does not mean your understanding of what happened after Prohibition is correct.
Ok but that still is a strong case against prohibition then. If prohibition allowed these criminal organizations to become so powerful like drug prohibition has done with cartels. Keeping prohibition is just going to perpetuate the problem. Even if legalization doesn't get rid of the problem right away, it would eliminate the foothold for new criminal organizations to get into business with it and become as powerful as cartels.