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War on Cartels? Large Mormon family slaughtered, raped, burned alive in Sonora, Trump responds.

crowbrow

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Some other interesting tidbits

Prohibition has been tied to a growth in organized crime and violence.[6][7][8] As an experiment it lost supporters every year, and lost tax revenue that governments needed when the Great Depression began in 1929.[9]

Another argument for legalizing drugs is the tax revenue that they could bring. All these money is now going to drug cartels and the like.

And a quote from Rockefeller

"When Prohibition was introduced, I hoped that it would be widely supported by public opinion and the day would soon come when the evil effects of alcohol would be recognized. I have slowly and reluctantly come to believe that this has not been the result. Instead, drinking has generally increased; the speakeasy has replaced the saloon; a vast army of lawbreakers has appeared; many of our best citizens have openly ignored Prohibition; respect for the law has been greatly lessened; and crime has increased to a level never seen before."

Drug prohibition is basically almost an analogous case. Consumption and crime has nothing but increased to never before seen levels through prohibition.
 
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Liberty4all

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You're way more likely to die from drowning than any cartel related issue in Cozumel. It's really just the border towns that are the most dangerous. Enjoy the diving! Beautiful place!
Thanks, yeah I figured as much. Looking forward to it!
 

Ornlu

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DeepEnigma

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You're way more likely to die from drowning than any cartel related issue in Cozumel. It's really just the border towns that are the most dangerous. Enjoy the diving! Beautiful place!
Same with guns in general, but we all know the ideological lines in the sand get drawn.

I travel to Mexico often for business/pleasure and never had an issue either.
 

crowbrow

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This might help a bit; basically says a mix of what TheContact TheContact and myself have said. "Mostly safe at tourist spots; do not go exploring"

I was in Mexico three years ago, one of the best trips I've had in my life. My friends and I rented a car and drove north through the desert looking for magic mexican towns, maybe that wan't so prudent but the experience was unforgettable. I love Mexico, it pains me to see it this way.
 

dkny1121

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I was in Mexico three years ago, one of the best trips I've had in my life. My friends and I rented a car and drove north through the desert looking for magic mexican towns, maybe that wan't so prudent but the experience was unforgettable. I love Mexico, it pains me to see it this way.
Wow you guys are nuts. I am going in three weeks and am planning on not leaving the resort, I have been to Mexico a bunch of times and only other places I would go in local towns, driving to random places sounds insane.
 
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crowbrow

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Wow you guys are nuts. I am going in three weeks and am planning on not leaving the resort, I have been to Mexico a bunch of times and only other places I would go in local towns, driving to random places sounds insane.
When we rented the car they told us to get straight through the desert to Real de Catorce and arrive before sundown. It's a small lively town in the middle of the desert, it's one of the main spiritual places of the Huicholes. It's beautiful amazing place and definitely worth it but maybe don't make the trip all the way from DF because when we arrived to the desert night was already falling and I guess you don't want that lol. You could stay in San Luis Potosi and then go the next day. I swear it's worth it and Real de Catorce is pretty touristy so we never felt unsafe.
 

Texas Pride

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Unlike most of the bullshit wars we end up in we have a vested interest in keeping the trash contained at the border. And if Mexico isn't willing or are simply unable to clean up the mess I have no issue with us doing it. It doubles as a immigration solution because if that place is safe people won't flee to the US in droves. What we should be doing in the meantime is pushing free rehab in the US to combat the demand for the drugs coming in. I'm not usually for free shit but we need a drastic aggressive approach to the demand for the drugs coming in and enabling these cartels to exist.
 

autoduelist

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Ok but that still is a strong case against prohibition then. If prohibition allowed these criminal organizations to become so powerful like drug prohibition has done with cartels. Keeping prohibition is just going to perpetuate the problem. Even if legalization doesn't get rid of the problem right away, it would eliminate the foothold for new criminal organizations to get into business with it and become as powerful as cartels.
There is a difference between prohibition and legalization, and there is a difference between alchohol, and, say, fentanyl.

The Cartels are already mature organizations with their tendrils in everything. They use atrocity level force as their main deterrent to opposition, bribes as their second level [both to politicians and to the populace].

Legalization will not end them, it will legitimize them even more than they already have done themselves. Wipe them off the face of the planet, and then we can talk about the pros and cons of legalization. I greatly value liberty, and will agree with far more on that side than you likely think given this conversation.

But that does not mean you build an argument for legalization on false premises, like the Mafia was weakened by end of Prohibition. Legalization will not end the Cartels. They are far too entrenched. A few weeks of US military strength [drone striking encampments, precision strikes, defending highways and supply lines, etc.] could conceivably cripple them. Eventually, new groups would fill any power vacuum created, but sometimes you need a clean slate, and perhaps they could be weakened to a level that a just State can reassert itself.

This would also help in other ways. Any war on the Cartels would necessitate border defense, lowering both illegal immigration and drug/human trafficking. The resultant destruction of supply chain will harm domestic gangs. Any Cartel reprisal within the US towards US citizens will cause local LE to wipe out local infestations. But legalization hurts us here, because local gangs will turn to far more dangerous chemical concoctions they can make locally or source from China, etc.

There is never a clean solution, never a fool proof idea.

But as far as wars go, wiping out the Cartels would be one of the best uses our military might has ever seen.
 
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Lord Oso

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Lol.... El Trumpo wants to send troops to Mexico but can't resolve the recent up surge of public shootouts nor provide decent security to stop school shootings. What's the true purpose to invade Mexico?
 
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crowbrow

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Wipe them off the face of the planet, and then we can talk about the pros and cons of legalization.
But how? this is the thing people are not really explaining here. How can we do this when there has been decades of a drug war that has been trying to do exactly that and utterly failed? Are we going to have to wait 40-50-60 more years? Are we supposed to carpet bomb mexican cities? How is this even possible to achieve? If prohibition is giving a foothold to these groups to become strong then at least a first step to getting rid of them is getting rid of the thing that made them strong in the first place.

A few weeks of US military strength [drone striking encampments, precision strikes, defending highways and supply lines, etc.] could conceivably cripple them.
How do you do this? they are in the middle of cities, surrounded by civilians. This is what was done in the 80s with Colombian cartels BTW and they lived fairly isolated in the mountains, now they live inside population centers. Should we bomb those? You're basically asking for a foreign force to take over mexican territory and given free range of what they could do including all the collateral damage it could entail. In what world is this even possible?

But as far as wars go, wiping out the Cartels would be one of the best uses our military might has ever seen.
Good luck with that, it won't ever happen and, if it did, it would create a mess Afghanistan would seem like a sunday morning stroll. Cartels have targeted the population when they are targeted, if you start striking them they will take everyone else along them. It will be a full out war not a precision strike game.
 

crowbrow

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Lol.... El Trumpo wants to send troops to Mexico but can't resolve the recent up surge of public shootouts nor provide decent security to stop school shootings. What's the true purpose to invade Mexico?
He's a fucking moron and he's just saying nonsense.
 
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autoduelist

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Some other interesting tidbits

Prohibition has been tied to a growth in organized crime and violence.[6][7][8] As an experiment it lost supporters every year, and lost tax revenue that governments needed when the Great Depression began in 1929.[9]

Another argument for legalizing drugs is the tax revenue that they could bring. All these money is now going to drug cartels and the like.

And a quote from Rockefeller

"When Prohibition was introduced, I hoped that it would be widely supported by public opinion and the day would soon come when the evil effects of alcohol would be recognized. I have slowly and reluctantly come to believe that this has not been the result. Instead, drinking has generally increased; the speakeasy has replaced the saloon; a vast army of lawbreakers has appeared; many of our best citizens have openly ignored Prohibition; respect for the law has been greatly lessened; and crime has increased to a level never seen before."

Drug prohibition is basically almost an analogous case. Consumption and crime has nothing but increased to never before seen levels through prohibition.
While there are definitely similarities, it is an absolute mistake to conflate alchohol and drug use. For one, certain drugs [heroin, meth, etc] are far more addictive and immediately destructive to lives [defined as crippling addiction, loss of family and career, permanent health problems, homelessness, etc]. While alcoholism certainly is a problem, there is a reason it has been generally culturally acceptable [removing marijuana from the conversation on purpose, as it has more in common with alchohol than the ones we are discussing].

And in the edge cases where alcoholism does cause a problem [which led to Prohibition in the first place], we see innocent families destroyed by drunk drivers, increased domestic violence, and increased violence in general.

Now all that is terrible, but it has nothing on the secondary crime caused by addiction to many other, harder drugs [crack prostitutes, murder / theft / muggings, etc., brain dead addicts].

This is not to say there would not be any benefits to legalizing, say, heroin. There would be. But to assume they outweigh the negatives by using Prohibition as an example does not hold up. You might have a strong argument were we only talking about marijuana, but marijuana is not the sole drug.
 

autoduelist

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But how? this is the thing people are not really explaining here. How can we do this when there has been decades of a drug war that has been trying to do exactly that and utterly failed? Are we going to have to wait 40-50-60 more years? Are we supposed to carpet bomb mexican cities? How is this even possible to achieve? If prohibition is giving a foothold to these groups to become strong then at least a first step to getting rid of them is getting rid of the thing that made them strong in the first place.
No, what we are discussing has never been tried.
No, your statements on Prohibition continue to be incorrect, as already discussed.

How do you do this? they are in the middle of cities, surrounded by civilians. This is what was done in the 80s with Colombian cartels BTW and they lived fairly isolated in the mountains, now they live inside population centers. Should we bomb those? You're basically asking for a foreign force to take over mexican territory and given free range of what they could do including all the collateral damage it could entail. In what world is this even possible?
It's like your willfully ignoring anything being said to you at this point. Nobody is talking about bombing population centers. Nobody is talking about just letting the US military go ham on cities. Nobody is saying it's snap your fingers and done. We're talking about defending supply and transport lines, precision strikes where possible, and you hear nuke Mexico or something.

Good luck with that, it won't ever happen and, if it did, it would create a mess Afghanistan would seem like a sunday morning stroll. Cartels have targeted the population when they are targeted, if you start striking them they will take everyone else along them. It will be a full out war not a precision strike game.
If desire to be right made you right, man, you'd be so fucking right. I'd engage further, but even when you admit your are wrong on a subject [bravo for that, by the way] you just double down and insist the new history still means the same thing [bravo taken back, sorry]. I'm out, man.
 
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crowbrow

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While there are definitely similarities, it is an absolute mistake to conflate alchohol and drug use. For one, certain drugs [heroin, meth, etc] are far more addictive and immediately destructive to lives [defined as crippling addiction, loss of family and career, permanent health problems, homelessness, etc]. While alcoholism certainly is a problem, there is a reason it has been generally culturally acceptable [removing marijuana from the conversation on purpose, as it has more in common with alchohol than the ones we are discussing].

And in the edge cases where alcoholism does cause a problem [which led to Prohibition in the first place], we see innocent families destroyed by drunk drivers, increased domestic violence, and increased violence in general.

Now all that is terrible, but it has nothing on the secondary crime caused by addiction to many other, harder drugs [crack prostitutes, murder / theft / muggings, etc., brain dead addicts].

This is not to say there would not be any benefits to legalizing, say, heroin. There would be. But to assume they outweigh the negatives by using Prohibition as an example does not hold up. You might have a strong argument were we only talking about marijuana, but marijuana is not the sole drug.
But has anybody done any study about the positive vs negative? In this thread I pointed how decriminalizing all drugs in Portugal basically lead to a considerable diminish in cases of HIV. Apparently making it less shady to get drugs already makes people less prone to disease because they don't have to hide to get needles for example. Also the cases of addiction haven't really gone up. So, at least the data I've seen, hasn't shown this catastrophic increase in drug use. ANd considering drug prohibition in humanity is fairly new and human societies survived in the past with legal drugs. I don't see why this should be different now. Like a study I pointed in this thread shows only like 5% of people who use illicit drugs develop addiction which is really the most problematic factor. That 5% can be treated as a health problem through taxation with legalization.
 

crowbrow

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No, what we are discussing has never been tried.
It has though, the war on drugs has already tried a lot of military interventions way back from the 80s and with the help of the US too.

https://www.voanews.com/americas/zetas-cartel-leader-killed-body-snatched

Grayson says the Lazcano killing demonstrates a shift in tactics that has paid dividends for the Mexican government. He says President Calderon began his war on drug traffickers with massive deployments of army units, but more recently has relied on the Navy and Marines to carry out precision strikes on drug gang leaders.

"He is no longer sending hundreds, maybe thousands of army troops into areas where there was often collateral damage or human rights abuses. He is relying less on the broad sword and more on the scalpel, and that scalpel is being wielded successfully by the Navy and the Marines," he said.

Incoming Mexican president, Enrique Pena Nieto, says he favors such tactics.
Under Calderon and Peña Nieto tha power of the cartels increased considerably never diminished and they basically were using the tactics you're calling for here. The Zetas multiplied into other groups and now they are bigger and stronger than before this guy was killed by a precision strike.

We're talking about defending supply and transport lines, precision strikes where possible, and you hear nuke Mexico or something.
And this is exactly what has been done with the war on drugs. What do you think this is?


Cutting drug routes has been going on since the beginning of the drug war, it hasn't done shit to stop the proliferation and increase in power from cartels.
 
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A Regular Guy

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It really is a head scratcher as an outsider looking in. Makes me wonder how much reality mirrors the image we get of Mexico and the cartels from movies/TV shows. They obviously have a lot of power/influence and the government's been incapable of reigning them in.
My dad wakes up every morning just to tune to watch AMLO's state of address. I keep telling him, this is what a socialist dictator does, and he laughs at me.
 

Cybrwzrd

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.rain

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Went to Mexico last year. First landed in Cancun, then went to tourist resort in Playa del Carmen.

I'm from Europe. I have never seen so many patrols, especially with real guns, even at tourist resort. I felt unsafe everywhere.

If I were to choose I would ask Trump for help. Those poor people die every day. They should wipe out fucking cartels once and for all.
 
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Romulus

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The Cartels are more powerful than the Mexican Military. They are no joke. Most Americans can't comprehend that. Imagine, in America, a group of people so powerful that they would drive through and take over cities, take over jails, release their own, and the military would be powerless to stop them. Even if you were to take away a large source of their income (through the legalization of drugs), they have diversified into legitimate businesses. I saw Cartel members defending resorts in Mexico because...they own the resorts. They started in drugs but now they have a hand in almost everything. I don't even know how you can stop them at this point. It would be harder than annihilating a countries entire army. I'm anti-war, I'm for pulling out of the middle east, but the cartels are close to home, they kill Americans, and they bring drugs into our own country. This should be a priority over the middle east in my opinion. I hope Trump does something about them, but it could escalate into a situation where a lot more Americans, especially the ones living on or close to the US-Mexico border, will be massacred and made an example out of.
I live 4minutes from the texas/mexican border and used to cross over a few times per month. Alot of the cartel's power comes from corruption of the local law enforcement, they're usually paid off, allowing them to do as they please. They're used to people laying down for them. Id love to see the US Marines cross over. People are literally suffering and in fear.
 
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This is seriously fucked up.

The cartels are fucking animals and responsible for some of the most disgusting murders I've ever seen (skinning people alive while their next victim watches on, burning people alive, removing gentalia while still alive etc.)

They are scum and need to be eradicated.
Get it done Trump. Kill em all.
I've read people experiencing PTSD symptoms because they watched videos of the cartels butchering their victims (a son's heart being ripped opened in front of his father).
 

Liberty4all

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I've read people experiencing PTSD symptoms because they watched videos of the cartels butchering their victims (a son's heart being ripped opened in front of his father).
You don't want to go looking for that one. It's worse much worse. I read about what exactly happened the video and felt physically sick. noped for ever watching it.
 
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cheezcake

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If the cartels are to be stopped force is going to be required. But something tells me shoving the US army into Mexico and having US citizens foot the tax bill isn't going to work out.
 

crowbrow

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Crowbar doesn’t live in reality. He lives in Hollywood pop reality
Lol says the people that think US military intervention in Mexico territory will stop the cartels and be everything but a catastrophy. You guys live in a Michael Bay movie.
 

Cybrwzrd

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Lol says the people that think US military intervention in Mexico territory will stop the cartels and be everything but a catastrophy. You guys live in a Michael Bay movie.
Just pointing out that you saying the American Italian Mafia lost power from prohibition is ridiculous, if anything they were at their strongest in post-war America, up to the 70s.
 

MetalAlien

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Lol says the people that think US military intervention in Mexico territory will stop the cartels and be everything but a catastrophy. You guys live in a Michael Bay movie.
Wrong wrong wrong! I wouldn't pay to see a Michael Bay movie. I'd be first in line to watch the pointy boot wearing fucks get their ass handed to them by a predator drone.
 
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Don't mess with the Cartels.

With all due respect to everyone here in the thread, The Cartels are an evil that's more insidious and permanent than you'd think. You cut off one head, 6 other heads will take its place.

A war on the cartels would be the worst military and political decision since the war on Iraq.
 
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crowbrow

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Just pointing out that you saying the American Italian Mafia lost power from prohibition is ridiculous, if anything they were at their strongest in post-war America, up to the 70s.
Yeah i already acknowledged that legalization didnt got rid of the Mafia. But i also pointed out that basically the Mafia initially became as powerful thanks to prohibition as the cartels have with the prohibition of drugs. So it seems legalization is still a necessary step to prevent and treat this malice no matter from where you look at it.
 

sahlberg

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Lol says the people that think US military intervention in Mexico territory will stop the cartels and be everything but a catastrophy. You guys live in a Michael Bay movie.
Yeah, we should just give up and give them what they want. Then they will cease violence and terror and start living next to us as friendly and peaceful neighbors.
We should have done that with ISIS too instead of wasting so much money and blood at fighting them.
 
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crowbrow

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Yeah, we should just give up and give them what they want. Then they will cease violence and terror and start living next to us as friendly and peaceful neighbors.
We should have done that with ISIS too instead of wasting so much money and blood at fighting them.
No, it's about getting rid of the conditions that allowed such groups to become as powerful as they have and stop wasting resources on non-solutions that have been tried and failed time and time again for decades. Basically is about not being retarded. Or do you think we should have kept alcohol prohibition until now because legalizing it was "giving in to what the Mafia wanted"? There's a point when if you keep trying over and over something that fails to fix the issue then you're basically a fucking dumbass, it's nothing to do about what the cartels want or not.
 

sahlberg

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No, it's about getting rid of the conditions that allowed such groups to become as powerful as they have and stop wasting resources on non-solutions that have been tried and failed time and time again for decades. Basically is about not being retarded. Or do you think we should have kept alcohol prohibition until now because legalizing it was "giving in to what the Mafia wanted"? There's a point when if you keep trying over and over something that fails to fix the issue then you're basically a fucking dumbass, it's nothing to do about what the cartels want or not.
Jesus christ.
So now we are at "is about not being retarded" when people disagree with you.
Thanks for calling me retarded. I will end my contribution to this thread now.
 

crowbrow

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Jesus christ.
So now we are at "is about not being retarded" when people disagree with you.
Thanks for calling me retarded. I will end my contribution to this thread now.
Retarded is keep using the same tactics that havent worked for decades and then expect they will suddenly work by invading a foreign country. I'm sorry but some ideas are indeed retarded, there's no more time to keep considering dumb ideas when the situation is as desperate.
 

oagboghi2

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Retarded is keep using the same tactics that havent worked for decades and then expect they will suddenly work by invading a foreign country. I'm sorry but some ideas are indeed retarded, there's no more time to keep considering dumb ideas when the situation is as desperate.
No one is saying invade the country, you retard
 
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MrTickles

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This isn't as black and white as it seems. Apparently there were up to 14 unrelated children in the Mormon group. i.e smells like child trafficking.
 
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HeresJohnny

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One of the family members told Anderson Cooper that gun control is part of the problem in Mexico.

One gun store in the country, you’re allowed to own one small caliber pistol after jumping through tons of hoops but can’t carry it for protection. Sounds like the Democratic model to me, and it’s working great down there!
 

MrTickles

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Source for child trafficking claims plz.
Do you often go on cross border road trips with your family and many other children that aren't yours? I pose the possibility. It smells. Unless this was some kind of religious class excursion, then I stand corrected.
 
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Ornlu

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Do you often go on cross border road trips with your family and many other children that aren't yours? I pose the possibility. It smells. Unless this was some kind of religious class excursion, then I stand corrected.
Google search on the claim of 14 unrelated kids turned up nothing. What is your source for that? Are they 14 unrelated Mormon kids? 14 unrelated kids not from the group? Does the group have a history of child trafficking? What is the believed motive to traffic said kids from the US to Mexico?
 
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Havoc2049

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Do you often go on cross border road trips with your family and many other children that aren't yours? I pose the possibility. It smells. Unless this was some kind of religious class excursion, then I stand corrected.
Mormon families can get quite large. It isn't uncommon for Mormon families to have like 5-15 kids. It's one of the reasons Utah has one of the fastest growing populations in the United States.

There was just a large funeral for all the family members who died in this attack. It was widely reported that this family was originally from a Mormon community in Mexico and had moved to Utah. They were traveling down to Mexico to attend a wedding.