• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Warhammer |OT| 40k, AoS, specialist games, other miniature games - Need more DAKKA!

mcz117chief

Member
Sep 29, 2013
11,759
3,177
690
29
Bohemia
There is a reason I don't play tournaments anymore ;) but yeah there's a reason why these 2nd Ed minis are quite popular with tournament players, they are easier to hide.
Same here, I just play narative campaigns or friendly matches, mostly introductory games for newcomers or testing out new builds with people who want to play in tournies and such.
 
Last edited:

Makariel

Member
Jan 14, 2018
2,312
2,372
580
Bit of painting progress, completed my seraphim from the sisters of battle box, apart from the bases:



I'm thinking of getting transparent bases instead of the regular ones to glue the stalks onto. I've not figured out what I should to at the base around the piece where the stalk is glued to otherwise. Looks weird regardless what I try to do with it. Not a big fan of those fancy new flying bases.

Then I started laying down some of the base colours for my Trygon:



So... many... spikes... this model is a literal pain to paint. I thought blood for the bloodgod were the other guys?

The inspiration for the colour combination comes from the poison dart frog, which can have all sorts of fantastic patterns, I've been looking at something like this here for example:


So I'm planning on getting some black/orange/yellow pattern on the carapace and the fleshy bits will be black and blue. Still trying to figure out what to do with the big claws, could make them green or red or also just blue.
 

mcz117chief

Member
Sep 29, 2013
11,759
3,177
690
29
Bohemia
You need serious help with painting those eyes, mate. I will tell you how. First, paint the entire eye area with light brown, then draw a horizontal white line (don't use skull white) across the eye and then draw a vertical black line in the middle of the eyes, clean up all excessive brush strokes with the brown again and after you start painting the face keep a thin border of brown between the eye and the rest of the face. Alternatively you can check out this video.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Makariel

Makariel

Member
Jan 14, 2018
2,312
2,372
580
You need serious help with painting those eyes, mate. I will tell you how. First, paint the entire eye area with light brown, then draw a horizontal white line (don't use skull white) across the eye and then draw a vertical black line in the middle of the eyes, clean up all excessive brush strokes with the brown again and after you start painting the face keep a thin border of brown between the eye and the rest of the face. Alternatively you can check out this video.
I hate painting eyes, that's why I usually give everyone a helmet when possible ;) I'll check out the video.
 

mcz117chief

Member
Sep 29, 2013
11,759
3,177
690
29
Bohemia
I hate painting eyes, that's why I usually give everyone a helmet when possible ;) I'll check out the video.
I also opt for helmets when possible but it isn't very much when you play the Imperial Guard, dozens of models each with a face unless you got some special models like the Steel Legion, Death Korps etc. Those armies force you to learn how to paint faces.
 

Makariel

Member
Jan 14, 2018
2,312
2,372
580
I figured I make a "Makariel reads/listens way too much of the Horus Heresy so you don't have to"-post. I started with this insanity now more than a year ago, probably wouldn't have if there would not have been three helpful humble-bundles along the way so far, where plenty of Warhammer-related novels, short stories and audio books were included. Also included a large bunch of HH stuff.

What is the Horus Heresy?
Warhammer 30k, the Horus treachery, you could say the horus civil war, later horus heresy, was the moment that sent the "Imperium of Man" onto the downward spiral it still is in 40k, so more than 10 thousand years later. Back in 2nd Edition when I started the HH was just a fleeting mention, just as a big conflict that resulted in the Emperor being stuck on his golden throne and shortly after the rest of the mythical "Primarchs" were either killed, disappeared or were presumably killed while they disappeared. Around 2006 Games Workshop figured they might as well tell that story in a bunch of books and since so many people love space marines, give them a good reason to get bigger and bigger space marines armies by publishing a separate game, which is still ongoing.

By now the HH series has 56 volumes (ha) with an average page count in the 400+ range (haha). Since not every single one of these 20k pages has the same relevance, one might wonder how many of them you'd actually "need" to read to get the picture. There is a lot of filler and not all that much killer unfortunately, but I think I can narrow down a relatively short list of novels that can get anyone interested from the start of the Heresy to just before the Siege of Terra. And the Siege of Terra is where the HH still is at, so I guess GW has another 10 years in that baby until the final battle is decided in a duel to the death by two people with swords in the 40th millennium.

Where the heresy starts:
0. The first Heretic - technically the 14th book of the series, but in terms of chronology the first, and IMO a better start than the actual start. You could also ignore this book and start with Horus Rising.
1. Horus Rising - the actual start of the series, unfortunately also the book that shows a number of key weaknesses in having space marines as characters*
2. False Gods - this is where Horus gets... well... spoiler below
3. Galaxy in Flames - here is where the HH gets it's actual start
4. Flight of the Eisenstein - one of the better books in this opening salvo
5. Fulgrim - a look at the Emperor's Children and how they turn into complete lunatics
Reading the first few books in rapid succession, one might get a deja-vu and wonder how not one but two primarchs, these demi-gods of war, fall for the olderst trick in the DnD gamemaster's handbook, the cursed sword. The cursed weapon trope will come up a few more times in this series. Shakespeare this is not.

6. Legion - this book covers what the Alpha Legion was getting into, you could get away not reading this one but it does set up a few things that come up in later books.
7. A Thousand Sons - covers the Council of Nikaea and the feud between Thousand Sons and Space Wolves, from the Thousand Sons' perspective
8. Prospero Burns - covers the Council of Nikaea and the feud between Thousand Sons and Space Wolves, from the Space Wolves' perspective

Imperium Secundus
9. Vulkan Lives - a dreadful book, it was so boring it made me really reconsider many of my life choices. Half of it is what I would like to describe as softcore-torture-porn, the other half a reasonably interesting hunt for a McGuffin that is relevant later. If you don't care where the McGuffin comes from you could also ignore this one.
10. Know No Fear - this is where our poster boys the Ultramarines come into play the first time. Actually quite a fun read and made me almost like the Ultrasmurfs and their Primarch.
11. Betrayer - goes into the World Eaters and Word Bearers a bit more. Perhaps the most confusing pairing of legions they could have come up with. I've been calling them Word Eaters and World Bearers on multiple occasions. First half of the book is rather bland, second half is where it gets a bit more interesting.
12. The Unremembered Empire - probably one of the highlights of the series in my view. It's also one of the few books that really ties everything together, with various characters and McGuffins from various previous books coming together, and with some of the more interesting dialogue and dare I say philosophical exchanges happening. This is as highbrow as this series gets.
13. Pharos - This is where things turn for the Imperium Secundus, setting up the long march to Terra.

Towards the Siege of Terra:
14. Praetorian of Dorn - focuses a lot on the Imperial Fist, which are tasked with the defense of Terra. So you can see where this one might be going...
15. Master of Mankind - In case you wondered what the Emperor actually did during all this time, here's the answer.
It's all Magnus' fault!

There you go, cut 56 volumes into a bit more manageable 16 books, and you can even get away with only reading one side of the Space Wolves - Thousand Sons feud, and don't necessarily need to read the First Heretic or Legion either, and definitely not Vulkan Lives, which could get the number to 12. This brings you right to the defense of Terra herself, and who knows how long it will take GW to milk that cow.

There are tons of other novels, short stories, novellas, audio dramas etc. covering specific legions, characters, and whatnot. I excluded anything that I figured is not driving the plot forward to a significant degree. If you're a real fan of a specific legion you can check legion-relevant novels, but even then your mileage may vary. I'm quite fond of Space Wolves myself, but found myself not particularly impressed by many of the SW books so far (with the exception of Prospero Burns, that was quite neat). If you really like the 40k assassins you might enjoy Nemesis, if you are more interested in Mars and the Mechanicum you might find the book of the same name interesting, and so on.

Regarding the aforementioned issue of using transhuman super soldiers as your main characters:
* Horus Rising has a number of issues in terms of how the story is told, and it's something that many of the books in this series suffer from. Space marines "know no fear", and are emotionally really odd. A normal 2k person would not act like a transhuman in 30k, fine. But in terms of telling a story, many nightmarish encounters which would reduce a normal human to a pile of misery and tears, are just your regular tuesday for these super-soldiers. So the space marines, heroes and villains alike, come out of most novels pretty much the same as they went in. There is suspiciously little character development on page for a series with so many pages. Only few of the marines have an arc that I could recognise, and so many are just one-note characters that can be boiled down to some archetype. Also doesn't help that Horus Rising starts with characters that have reasonably similar sounding names, and are even described as looking fairly similar to each other. It's like watching a movie about clone troopers where the names only differ by a syllable. They introduced human "remembrancers" to cover for that, but oddly enough most of the character development for those seems to happen between novels, not during them, so that's not helping. And remembrancers pretty much disappear from view entirely in traitor legions a few novels in, and from most of the others short after. It does change a bit and get better in later books. This is also why I would suggest to start with The First Heretic, instead in the order you're supposed to according to GW themselves. If you read and don't like TFH, run, since it's not getting much better than that ;)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Stilton Disco

Mr Nash

square pies = communism
Jun 8, 2004
4,886
1,083
1,825
Holy Terra
The other problem with the Horus Heresy books is that Black Library didn't expect them to become so popular, and shifted gears around book 6 or so, bringing in more authors. It's a big reason why Ferrus Manus didn't get fleshed out as much as he deserved before Fulgrim did him in despite being much liked by many of his brothers.

Also, why is Praetorian of Dorn's kindle version so expensive? (At least in my region) It's over double the price of many of the other books.

Edit: Looks like Humble Bundle is doing a Black Library thingie for eBooks. Lots of good stuff in there:
 
Last edited:

Makariel

Member
Jan 14, 2018
2,312
2,372
580
The other problem with the Horus Heresy books is that Black Library didn't expect them to become so popular, and shifted gears around book 6 or so, bringing in more authors. It's a big reason why Ferrus Manus didn't get fleshed out as much as he deserved before Fulgrim did him in despite being much liked by many of his brothers.
Yes, it's really noticeable how little happens to the actual plot of the HH after Fulgrim concludes. I'm amazed they managed to get to the first wall already!

Also, why is Praetorian of Dorn's kindle version so expensive? (At least in my region) It's over double the price of many of the other books.
On the black library website it's the same price (around 7 quid) as most of the other novels of similar age. I don't see a price for the kindle version on amazon.co.uk, it just tells me the kindle version is not available in my region.

Edit: Looks like Humble Bundle is doing a Black Library thingie for eBooks. Lots of good stuff in there:


(I might have a problem... ;-))
 
  • LOL
Reactions: Stilton Disco

Stilton Disco

Member
Aug 22, 2014
5,814
4,240
655
England
I like the Inquisitor, but it's certainly continuing the modern fasion of downplaying or actively covering up any hint of femininity in women. As the base for an male Eldar Corsair (or even an Exodite!) though, it has real potential.

This weeks preview was also far better than the last couple IMO. Head aside that Inquisitor really is a nice sculpt, and the Made To Order Sister and Terminator Librarian look really nice (even if again, they've clearly toned down the Femininity for the model when compared to the art.).




I'm definitely getting both though. I'll probably seap out the Librarian's left arm for a plasm or melta combi weapon, give the Sister a chainsword, plus maybe wings, and both of them helmets though.



The winner for me is one of my all time favourite Horus Heresy characters finally getting a figure, Saul Tarvitz!


Honestly, I keep going back and forth on wether to look into 30K or not, and javing a character model to justify a loyalist Emperor's Children force is making it damned tenpting.
 

Mr Nash

square pies = communism
Jun 8, 2004
4,886
1,083
1,825
Holy Terra
When I first saw the Inquisitor figure, I didn't realize it was female at first either until I read the description. I was scanning for wisps of gray hair wondering if it was Old Man Eisenhorn.
 

Makariel

Member
Jan 14, 2018
2,312
2,372
580
For me the MVP of the preview is this beauty here:



And that just when I thought that GW could do nothing to convince me to buy, build or paint a necron! I hope there is some more coming with Szeras, like Pariah coming back as necron units and some more toys for the murderous metal skeletons. The inquisitor does look like a good base for the leader for my wifes' Exodite. Just add some wings instead of the Inquisition backpack, give her a different head or helmet and you have a fantastic looking Autarch!
This weeks preview was also far better than the last couple IMO. Head aside that Inquisitor really is a nice sculpt, and the Made To Order Sister and Terminator Librarian look really nice (even if again, they've clearly toned down the Femininity for the model when compared to the art.).
I'm getting to the point where I think the issue is that they are just not good at sculpting faces that are anything other than Space Marine Sergeant Murderfist Squarejaw or similar. When looking over most of the GW range I can't put my finger on many female characters where I think the face is really done well. The only one that spring to my mind immediately is Morathi for AoS and even she has rather sharp features.

Tariana seems to me actually one of the best attempts yet, apart from one or two of the faces in the plastic sisters box. Not the sisters from the army box, they are all members of the extended Squarejaw family. I'm thinking of getting Tariana and paint her up as a celestian or give her the extra chainsword from the box to have her as sister superior for one of my squads. Librarian Walrus will become the chief librarian of the Blades of Metatron ;)
When I first saw the Inquisitor figure, I didn't realize it was female at first either until I read the description. I was scanning for wisps of gray hair wondering if it was Old Man Eisenhorn.
If an Inquisitor identifies as female you better not question his/her/ze/hir/xe/etc. decision otherwise you have an exterminatus raining down the planet before you finished the sentence :D
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Stilton Disco

Makariel

Member
Jan 14, 2018
2,312
2,372
580
The Warhammer-Community website doing a good job with articles at the moment. I liked the recent Goonhammer* post for example and if you wonder how 26.000 points of Orks look like, wonder no longer:



* if you're interested in list-building, the cometitive aspects of 40k and Kill Team and general tactics advise, Goonhammer is a good place to stop by with a cup of tea and a few spare minutes.
 
Last edited:

Makariel

Member
Jan 14, 2018
2,312
2,372
580
This weekend I stumbled over some pictures of old rogue trader era models, among them the models for female space marines:





Apart from the fact that space marines in RT were still just regular dudes in power armour, and not the transhuman killing machines they turned into with 2nd Ed. lore, WHAT IS WRONG WITH THEIR FACES?? KILL IT WITH FIRE!



Which just underlines what we discussed above, GW simply can't do female heads. Also includes Fantasy:



However, it also reminded me that there were many more miniatures that depitc non-combat roles, like astropaths, navigators, cooks etc. and I kind of miss those from the current ever-growing catalogue of citadel miniatures.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Stilton Disco

Stilton Disco

Member
Aug 22, 2014
5,814
4,240
655
England
Speaking of The Lion, anyone wanting to buy him or any other models from Forgeworld or GW directly only have until the 30th of April to take advantage of the every time you buy 50 dollar/pounds worth of vouchers you get 5 extra free offer.

Just bear in mind that that's either the GW or Forgeworld website. Vouchers bought on one website won't work on the other.

Not really useful for GW stuff as it's cheaper from third party retailers, but for Forgeworld it's well worth it, unless you want to risk recasters.
 

mcz117chief

Member
Sep 29, 2013
11,759
3,177
690
29
Bohemia
That pirate captain reminds me of Dee Snider from Twisted Sister. =p

Finally saw the model for 30K Lion El Johnson, and it looks pretty good.

Wow, if that isn't the most badass Space Marine then I don't know who is. I expect him to take control of Imperium Nihilus once he comes back around and start the good ol' civil war round 2 we so badly need. Space Marines vs Primaris Marines. Shit would be wicked awesome!

Which just underlines what we discussed above, GW simply can't do female heads. Also includes Fantasy:
Yup, even the most modern ones are tragically disfigured.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Stilton Disco

mcz117chief

Member
Sep 29, 2013
11,759
3,177
690
29
Bohemia
So y'all know I am building my new army, Sisters of Battle, what's funny is that they only have like 3 genuinely good melee choices in their army, right? You got Repentia (save 7+, legendary stuff :D), Penitent Engines and Zephyrims. I scoured the w40k meta reddit and everyone be like: "Yeah, Zephyrim trash, useless, wtf, will never see top level play, retarded tier at best. Maybe with Celestine they will reach meme tier." So I was like: "well I guess they know what they are talking about..." WRONG! They know exactly **** all! I just checked the top 2 best placed Sisters of Battle armies at the 2020 LVOs and they both had a large contingent of Zephyrim in them (and one with Celestine), saying that they were wrecking like crazy. So I already got 20 of them in mail :p Oh boy, dis gunna be gut!

Also: storm bolters everywhere and the best anti-tanks are Exorcists or Seraphims filled to the brim with inferno pistols (dual wield!).
 
Last edited:

Stilton Disco

Member
Aug 22, 2014
5,814
4,240
655
England
So y'all know I am building my new army, Sisters of Battle, what's funny is that they only have like 3 genuinely good melee choices in their army, right? You got Repentia (save 7+, legendary stuff :D), Penitent Engines and Zephyrims. I scoured the w40k meta reddit and everyone be like: "Yeah, Zephyrim trash, useless, wtf, will never see top level play, retarded tier at best. Maybe with Celestine they will reach meme tier." So I was like: "well I guess they know what they are talking about..." WRONG! They know exactly **** all! I just checked the top 2 best placed Sisters of Battle armies at the 2020 LVOs and they both had a large contingent of Zephyrim in them (and one with Celestine), saying that they were wrecking like crazy. So I already got 20 of them in mail :p Oh boy, dis gunna be gut!

Also: storm bolters everywhere and the best anti-tanks are Exorcists or Seraphims filled to the brim with inferno pistols (dual wield!).
People get way too caught up in the maths and forget that luck, fun and strategic thinking are just as important as raw numbers when it comes to making a decent army.

Plus the sisters work best when played exactly they way they were meant to be: frothing lunatics that want to set everyone on fire because it helps make them 'hot' for the Big E.

On a different point for the hobby, I managed to score some cheap Intercessors off Ebay today to see if I can convert them into a design I like more.

I'm thinking swapping the heads, shoulder pads and back packs as an obvious starting point, but maybe even going to town on those knees, bolt rifles and chest plates with some spare bits, a knife and a bit of green stuff too.
 
Last edited:
  • Praise the Sun
Reactions: mcz117chief

mcz117chief

Member
Sep 29, 2013
11,759
3,177
690
29
Bohemia
People get way too caught up in the maths and forget that luck, fun and strategic thinking are just as important as raw numbers when it comes to making a decent army.

Plus the sisters work best when played exactly they way they were meant to be: frothing lunatics that want to set everyone on fire because it helps make them 'hot' for the Big E.

On a different point for the hobby, I managed to score some cheap Intercessors off Ebay today to see if I can convert them into a design I like more.

I'm thinking swapping the heads, shoulder pads and back packs as an obvious starting point, but maybe even going to town on those knees, bolt rifles and chest plates with some spare bits, a knife and a bit of green stuff too.
Go for it, mate. I also got a ton of custom miniatures. I got some good boy points from my opponents, for example, for my Armageddon Steel Legion flamer. Have you consider capes or some other clothes?
 

Stilton Disco

Member
Aug 22, 2014
5,814
4,240
655
England
Go for it, mate. I also got a ton of custom miniatures. I got some good boy points from my opponents, for example, for my Armageddon Steel Legion flamer. Have you consider capes or some other clothes?
Honestly I've gone so far off piste with conversions I'm not sure I could field a legal army if I wanted to.

I've always prefered the modeling and painting parts of the hobby, and when I actually was able to play, it was mostly with friends, and we'd all make up our own rules and units as long as they weren't too ridiculous.

I've got a Tactical squad packing an Assualt Cannon, Plasma and Lascannon equiped Land Speeders, Scouts with a Grenade Launcher and Flamer, Twin Plasma Cannon Razorback, a Devastator squad analogue with special weapons and Jump packs...

Really my main issue with Primaris is the size creep, tacticool aesthetic and boring weapon choice. I can at least sort out 2 of those.

That Intercessor sergeant at the very least is getting a melee weapon and a very illegal combi bolt rifle. A fancy cape would certainly add to the look.
 

Makariel

Member
Jan 14, 2018
2,312
2,372
580
So y'all know I am building my new army, Sisters of Battle, what's funny is that they only have like 3 genuinely good melee choices in their army, right? You got Repentia (save 7+, legendary stuff :D), Penitent Engines and Zephyrims. I scoured the w40k meta reddit and everyone be like: "Yeah, Zephyrim trash, useless, wtf, will never see top level play, retarded tier at best. Maybe with Celestine they will reach meme tier." So I was like: "well I guess they know what they are talking about..." WRONG! They know exactly **** all! I just checked the top 2 best placed Sisters of Battle armies at the 2020 LVOs and they both had a large contingent of Zephyrim in them (and one with Celestine), saying that they were wrecking like crazy. So I already got 20 of them in mail :p Oh boy, dis gunna be gut!
I second (third?) what's been said already, people just get carried away too much with Mathhammer, not necessarily understanding the "strategy" in strategy games and that, IMO, most tabletop tactics games are won and lost in the movement phase. In racing sims we say you can't win in the first turn but you can lose, in 40k you can't win in the deployment phase but you can lose. And the Zephyrim allowing re-roll of charge moves is something that Mathus Hammerus, PhD, doesn't take into account when calculating the marine-equivalent values of individual units. And of course various stratagems that act as force multipliers, e.g. making storm bolters in a sisters army absolutely brutal. And then there's miracle dice of course, along with suspiciously many strategems that effectively benefit a sisters player when an individual unit is wiped out. Since we have various things depending on our units being beaten up, we can adopt a rather... unique playstyle...



There are so many fun combinations possible that can throw off an opponent. Look for example at the Repentia Superior, who allows to re-roll advance and charge moves in 6", combine that with Argent Shroud and you can run around with Retributor squads moving 7-12" (with the reroll usually 9+) without pentalties to shoot, respectively with 12" range on their heavy flamers, or via strategem 36" multi-melta range for an advanced unit. That's quite a threat range.
 

mcz117chief

Member
Sep 29, 2013
11,759
3,177
690
29
Bohemia
Yeah, I definitely plan to get Repentias once I am finished with this batch. Melee Sisters of Battle sound and look like a ton of fun.
 

Stilton Disco

Member
Aug 22, 2014
5,814
4,240
655
England
I might have ended up with a spare Space Marine Attack Bike.

Anyone have any ideas for something fun to do with it? Interesting combination of HQ units to ride it, unusual weapons to give it? It’ll be a while before I touch it, so thought I’d throw it out there for some extra inspiration to ruminate on.
 

Makariel

Member
Jan 14, 2018
2,312
2,372
580
I might have ended up with a spare Space Marine Attack Bike.

Anyone have any ideas for something fun to do with it? Interesting combination of HQ units to ride it, unusual weapons to give it? It’ll be a while before I touch it, so thought I’d throw it out there for some extra inspiration to ruminate on.
I always liked the imperial guard rough riders in 40k, if you have some IG lying around, how about some imperial dragoon? Alternatively, a space marine "knight" with energy lance and storm shield, who calls his bike Rocinante.
 

Stilton Disco

Member
Aug 22, 2014
5,814
4,240
655
England
I always liked the imperial guard rough riders in 40k, if you have some IG lying around, how about some imperial dragoon? Alternatively, a space marine "knight" with energy lance and storm shield, who calls his bike Rocinante.
Actually a knight and Squire thing sounds interesting. Maybe a company champion with a power lance as the biker, and lute playing Chapter Serf as a squire/bard in the side car to sing of his exploits and pass him weapons...
 

Makariel

Member
Jan 14, 2018
2,312
2,372
580
Actually a knight and Squire thing sounds interesting. Maybe a company champion with a power lance as the biker, and lute playing Chapter Serf as a squire/bard in the side car to sing of his exploits and pass him weapons...
A scout/squire in the sidecar who holds his weapons and/or looks like he's hanging on for dear life sounds like fun :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stilton Disco

Makariel

Member
Jan 14, 2018
2,312
2,372
580
I picked up the Warcry rules book, in the post lockdown time I'm now waiting for the cards to be delivered for the AoS models we already have (Stormcast and Nighthaunt). The rules look quite neat on paper, curious to try them out. That hit and wound roll are combined sounds heretical, but I do hope that would find its way into kill team v2 as well. That they are still split even for the skirmish games is a bit baffling to me anyway. Yes I get that it's important in regular 40k where you can have a tank next to a grot and that they might react different to being shot at with a lasgun.

But even there I think the whole hit-wound-save-feelnopain system could see some streamlining, especially with all the re-rolls on top of re-rolls involved they slow the game down way too much atm. I mean I love rolling a bucket of dice as much as anyone, but when my genestealers get into combat with ork boys the table creaks under the weight of rolled dice.

Back to Warcry, I'm also liking that narrative play has a decent mention in the book. Also picked up a warband, the untamed beasts, to have a bit of variety and because I have a plastic addiction.
 

Stilton Disco

Member
Aug 22, 2014
5,814
4,240
655
England
I picked up the Warcry rules book, in the post lockdown time I'm now waiting for the cards to be delivered for the AoS models we already have (Stormcast and Nighthaunt). The rules look quite neat on paper, curious to try them out. That hit and wound roll are combined sounds heretical, but I do hope that would find its way into kill team v2 as well. That they are still split even for the skirmish games is a bit baffling to me anyway. Yes I get that it's important in regular 40k where you can have a tank next to a grot and that they might react different to being shot at with a lasgun.

But even there I think the whole hit-wound-save-feelnopain system could see some streamlining, especially with all the re-rolls on top of re-rolls involved they slow the game down way too much atm. I mean I love rolling a bucket of dice as much as anyone, but when my genestealers get into combat with ork boys the table creaks under the weight of rolled dice.

Back to Warcry, I'm also liking that narrative play has a decent mention in the book. Also picked up a warband, the untamed beasts, to have a bit of variety and because I have a plastic addiction.
Coming from 3rd edition to 8th I'm definitely of the opinion that 40K has become way too complicated.

At the same time, I think everything being paired down to solely using D6 for pretty much everything now has a big part to play in it. It makes the games more accessible, but as larger point armies have become the norm and there are ever more units with only minor variations all with extra modifiers, as well as special army rules on top, it seems there's dozens of dice getting rolled over, and over and over again, all with only a 1 in 6 chance seperating each result.

It's both bloated and without nuance. It's something that really could do with an overhaul, maybe swapping over to D10 as a standard, and with Strength vs Toughness as a modifier to the to hit roll.

On a slightly different subject, I finally got around to assembling a test Intercessor.









Annoyingly I just now realise I forgot I was going to give him a Combi Weapon.

Trickier to do now, but I might still give it a shot still. Just need to jazz him up with some details then paint him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Makariel

Makariel

Member
Jan 14, 2018
2,312
2,372
580
Coming from 3rd edition to 8th I'm definitely of the opinion that 40K has become way too complicated.

At the same time, I think everything being paired down to solely using D6 for pretty much everything now has a big part to play in it. It makes the games more accessible, but as larger point armies have become the norm and there are ever more units with only minor variations all with extra modifiers, as well as special army rules on top, it seems there's dozens of dice getting rolled over, and over and over again, all with only a 1 in 6 chance seperating each result.

It's both bloated and without nuance. It's something that really could do with an overhaul, maybe swapping over to D10 as a standard, and with Strength vs Toughness as a modifier to the to hit roll.
They already dipped their toes into different dice with the apocalypse rules where they use d6 and d10 depending on the weapon type I think? I've not played it myself only watched it one time. There are a bunch of systems that used d10 in the past but they never got that big. Or who here still remembers VOR? I sometimes thought that just having the toughness as target number and dice based on weapon strength might be neat, but you would not want to buy 20 d4 for your imperial guard lasguns ;)

At this stage 8th edition just appears to be needlessly complicated. Yes, 2nd and 3rd edition were perhaps a bit harder to learn at the start, since you had to read the entire rulebook. 8th ed is just a bunch of pages of core rules, but then every single model in the game has their own special rules by now. I'm still not sure what is better, but I think neither is ideal.

We will see what 9th with bring, but I do hope they will remove a lot of the pointless dice rolling. I like dice rolling, but a tactics game should be more about tactics than about dice rolling, but maybe I'm just old and grumpy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stilton Disco

Stilton Disco

Member
Aug 22, 2014
5,814
4,240
655
England
They already dipped their toes into different dice with the apocalypse rules where they use d6 and d10 depending on the weapon type I think? I've not played it myself only watched it one time. There are a bunch of systems that used d10 in the past but they never got that big. Or who here still remembers VOR? I sometimes thought that just having the toughness as target number and dice based on weapon strength might be neat, but you would not want to buy 20 d4 for your imperial guard lasguns ;)

At this stage 8th edition just appears to be needlessly complicated. Yes, 2nd and 3rd edition were perhaps a bit harder to learn at the start, since you had to read the entire rulebook. 8th ed is just a bunch of pages of core rules, but then every single model in the game has their own special rules by now. I'm still not sure what is better, but I think neither is ideal.

We will see what 9th with bring, but I do hope they will remove a lot of the pointless dice rolling. I like dice rolling, but a tactics game should be more about tactics than about dice rolling, but maybe I'm just old and grumpy.
I'm hoing 9th will be a big streamlining, but given all the Space Marine codex refreshes recently and Psychic Awakening I think it'll be more of the same with even more command point shenanigans.

Honestly, if they'd just get rid of the random dice rolls for charging I'd be happy. It automatically makes shooting a more reliable and thus superior tactic and ends up with too many armies blasting away at each other.

I think it's no coincidence infact that Primaris have no real melee specialists. It's just not a competitive strategy right now, and as someone that always prefered getting in close and twatting things, it's deeply saddening.

I also think they've made too many units multi wound. Plague marines aside, that should be a damned rare quality, and makes Primaris way too durable compared to so many other superhuman units, and again overly complicates matters. It's especially ridiculous that Primaris are now their main source of sales. You should not need to have extra counters to track wounds for bog standard troop choices.

Just making them Toughness 5 would have got the same idea of how much harder they are quite honestly.

As for combinging shooting and wounding, I actually think making it a to hit modifier, similar to how wounding works in 8th would make sense.

If Strength is higher or lower than Toughness, it's plus or minus 1 to hit. Twice or more of a difference, plus or minus 2.

Maybe do the same with saving throws, so an Imperial Guardsman with a Lasgun would hit and wound a Chaos Marine on a 5+, but the marine would then have a 2+ save.
 
Last edited:

SCB3

Member
Nov 24, 2014
867
483
510
OK, so say a newcomer is coming into this, for example the game and the lore, where the hell should they start?
 

Mr Nash

square pies = communism
Jun 8, 2004
4,886
1,083
1,825
Holy Terra
OK, so say a newcomer is coming into this, for example the game and the lore, where the hell should they start?
For lore, the Eisenhorn books are a good start to introduce the universe and what it's all about. There are quite a few omnibuses as well that focus more on specific factions like the Sisters of Battle, the Adeptus Mechanicus, Space Marines, and so forth. Just don't dive into the Horus Heresy first thing. That's a massive part of it but there are over 50 books. There's a lot of cool stuff in there, but it can wait. There are other books that easy people into the universe a lot better, after which it's much easier to spread out into other areas.
 

SCB3

Member
Nov 24, 2014
867
483
510
For lore, the Eisenhorn books are a good start to introduce the universe and what it's all about. There are quite a few omnibuses as well that focus more on specific factions like the Sisters of Battle, the Adeptus Mechanicus, Space Marines, and so forth. Just don't dive into the Horus Heresy first thing. That's a massive part of it but there are over 50 books. There's a lot of cool stuff in there, but it can wait. There are other books that easy people into the universe a lot better, after which it's much easier to spread out into other areas.
Thanks, so took a look at this one:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eisenhorn-Omnibus-Dan-Abnett/dp/1844161560/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

IS that the best place to start, or should I look more in Youtube channels first to get a basic understanding?

I am also maybe considering the games, I have all 3 Dawn of War games, Inquistor, Space Marines and Martyr (free on Xbox One this month) so they may also provide some background
 

Stilton Disco

Member
Aug 22, 2014
5,814
4,240
655
England
Thanks, so took a look at this one:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eisenhorn-Omnibus-Dan-Abnett/dp/1844161560/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

IS that the best place to start, or should I look more in Youtube channels first to get a basic understanding?

I am also maybe considering the games, I have all 3 Dawn of War games, Inquistor, Space Marines and Martyr (free on Xbox One this month) so they may also provide some background
I'm going to recommend a relatively recent fluff focused YouTube channel as a good free starting point, Baldermort.

He doesn't focus as much on any one particular faction as some do, and he mixes canon material with genuinely good, original short stories, that really highlight the unique traits of whatever his subject is that video, while adding flavour to the broader universe.

They even link in to one another and he lets the comments decide the outcomes of stuff, leading to a very nice set of linked tales going from Tyranids, to Catachans to Krieg in one case.

Well worth a listen to see if it peaks your interest, and might give you an idea of what to look into to find more info about.


Game wise, once they reopen the actual Warhammer stores are often a good place to start, maybe ask for a test game or jave the rules demonstrated for you.

Be warned that they're very hit and miss. My local one just tried to sell me shit and had almost no interest in cultivating any kind of community or player base. For others, it's the lynch pin for their local gaming groups.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: SCB3

mcz117chief

Member
Sep 29, 2013
11,759
3,177
690
29
Bohemia
I'm hoing 9th will be a big streamlining
I can't imagine how they can streamline the game any further as the rules are right now basically "just read the unit stat". I started with 4th edition and back then the game was a complete slog with dozens upon dozens of annoying special rules, exceptions and whatnot. Now the game is much faster, easier and generally very pleasant to play. Back then if you moved with anything it usually meant it wouldn't shoot so vast majority of games it was just two armies deployed in front of each other and just trading fire without anyone moving an inch, it was pretty terrible. Now you can move and shoot with everything which makes it so much more dynamic and fun. If you got two people who know the rules well you can have a 1000 point battle finished in 1 hour, back then that was impossible.
 

Stilton Disco

Member
Aug 22, 2014
5,814
4,240
655
England
I can't imagine how they can streamline the game any further as the rules are right now basically "just read the unit stat". I started with 4th edition and back then the game was a complete slog with dozens upon dozens of annoying special rules, exceptions and whatnot. Now the game is much faster, easier and generally very pleasant to play. Back then if you moved with anything it usually meant it wouldn't shoot so vast majority of games it was just two armies deployed in front of each other and just trading fire without anyone moving an inch, it was pretty terrible. Now you can move and shoot with everything which makes it so much more dynamic and fun. If you got two people who know the rules well you can have a 1000 point battle finished in 1 hour, back then that was impossible.
The core rules aren't so much the problem, but they're recognisablY an evolution of what they've pretty much always been, but long gone are the days when could easily memorise everything even your own faction did let alone keep a working recollection of everyone else's in your head.

Like you said, you "just read the unit stat", but you have to do that for pretty much every single unit. Then you add in aura buffs from other units, then factor in faction specific and sub faction specific rules, then command point use, all of which needs to be kept track off on top of trying to predict your opponents moves and plan ahead, which is hindered by the fact that the only way to onow what they do is to also "just read the unit stat".

Coming to 8th straight from 3rd, which really was if anything too streamlined and simplified (which also meant you could knock out a 1000pts game in an hour then too), I can absolutely attest to the game currently being an overwhelming mess of unique rules, special rules, faction rules and redundant, overly specialised, often overlapping units.
 

Mr Nash

square pies = communism
Jun 8, 2004
4,886
1,083
1,825
Holy Terra
Thanks, so took a look at this one:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eisenhorn-Omnibus-Dan-Abnett/dp/1844161560/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

IS that the best place to start, or should I look more in Youtube channels first to get a basic understanding?

I am also maybe considering the games, I have all 3 Dawn of War games, Inquistor, Space Marines and Martyr (free on Xbox One this month) so they may also provide some background
Yeah, that's the Eisenhorn trilogy I was recommending. Games are a decent place to start for getting a basic flavor of the universe. Youtube channels will provide a good amount of details on specific topics. For that, Luetin09, 40K Theories, and Oculus Imperia are all really good for doing features on specific factions, events, or individuals.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stilton Disco

SCB3

Member
Nov 24, 2014
867
483
510
Yeah, that's the Eisenhorn trilogy I was recommending. Games are a decent place to start for getting a basic flavor of the universe. Youtube channels will provide a good amount of details on specific topics. For that, Luetin09, 40K Theories, and Oculus Imperia are all really good for doing features on specific factions, events, or individuals.
Thakns, I'll give these a read, only £2 on amazon kindle, so thats cool, as for the game iteself, the Start kit from 2017 goes on sale a lot so may look into that as well

I'm referring to this:

and the more expensive version:

And perhaps paint those as a little project
 

Makariel

Member
Jan 14, 2018
2,312
2,372
580
I can't imagine how they can streamline the game any further as the rules are right now basically "just read the unit stat". I started with 4th edition and back then the game was a complete slog with dozens upon dozens of annoying special rules, exceptions and whatnot. Now the game is much faster, easier and generally very pleasant to play.
Yes, but it's still less than ideal, and some of the changes did in my view not help the tactical element. One example: getting rid of templates. At least until 3rd ed (not sure about 4th) if you e.g. wanted to hit something with a flamer, you didn't roll D6 auto-hits or d3 or d6 or 2d6 for various pieces of ordnance, but you used different sized templates to figure out how many you'd hit. That meant that if you were squeezing units behind a building or in cover, you would risk potentially more damage from such an attack. In fact, one of the big changes from 2nd to 3rd ed was that they removed a lot of the extra rolls that don't really constitute a meaningful tactical decision.

What I find odd in 8th is the sheer number of rolls in order to find out if my attack caused any damage or not. In 8th what can easily happen is that you first roll e.g. 2d3 to see how many shots you fire, then roll the resulting dice to hit, with eventual re-rolls for hit rolls subject to various auras, then you roll to wound, again with possible re-rolls, then the opponent rolls armour saves, sometimes one by one if they happen to be multi-wound models and the weapon shooting has let's say d3 damage, then you might still have a feel-no-pain save on top of that (sometimes army-wide, sometimes for specific models, sometimes via stratagem, sometimes via psyker). What of all of this dice rolling does really benefit the strategic or tactical decision on the field of play? It's a lot of busywork that could be just a bit streamlined. In 3rd you'd just roll for hit and place the template, or in a few cases you just put the template in range to find out how many models you hit. As pointed out above, the core rules of 8th are reasonably lean, but with every new codex they just added more and more stuff to the system.

Thus I like how Warcry throws a few of these rolls out of the window and it's as simple as: roll number of attack dice vs. target number based on strength vs. toughness -> damage! And since I read the warcry rules I wonder if they could just do something similar to 40k, which has way more models, but at the same time uses much more dice rolls to establish if "A shoots at B" results in B falling over. Command points and stratagems can stay I don't worry about them, it's just the number of steps to resolve damage that slows the game down too much IMO.
Back then if you moved with anything it usually meant it wouldn't shoot so vast majority of games it was just two armies deployed in front of each other and just trading fire without anyone moving an inch, it was pretty terrible.
3rd Ed already had assault weapons, and there were assault armies. I think there was only one single model in my Tyranids army that could not move and shoot. It was a glorious time where I managed 1st turn charges with frightening regularity. Yes some of it was silly, e.g. that a tank could not even roll an inch forward without losing the ability to fire, but nobody here suggests to go back to the dark ages of rapid fire weapons only shooting 12" after having moved.

Also, finishing a 1500 points battle well under 2 hours was normal in 3rd ed.
IS that the best place to start, or should I look more in Youtube channels first to get a basic understanding?
Other than books that are part of a series, you can pick up almost any book as your first in 40k. Is there any specific faction you particularly like? Then I would suggest to start with a book about that faction.

Examples include...
Sisters of Battle: https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/getting-started/sisters-of-battle-omnibus-ebook.html
Tau: https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/getting-started/crisis-of-faith.html
Aeldari: https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/getting-started/ghost-warrior-rise-of-the-ynnari-ebook.html
Chaos Space Marines: https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/getting-started/the-talon-of-horus-ebook.html
Space Marines (and chaos space marines, and sisters of battle): https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/novels/smc-apocalypse-ebook-2019.html
Adeptus Mechanicus: https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/novels/servants-of-the-machine-god-ebook.html
Imperial Knights: https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/novels/kingsblade-ebook.html
Space Marines vs. Necrons: https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/novels/the-world-engine-ebook.html
etc.

I'm referring to this:

and the more expensive version:

And perhaps paint those as a little project
There are various shops that offer GW products at decent discount, e.g. https://www.goblingaming.co.uk/ for example the know no fear box you linked above:

I'm not sure why amazon acts as if 50 quid was a bargain, even the official GW website offers the box at that price:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stilton Disco

SCB3

Member
Nov 24, 2014
867
483
510
Yes, but it's still less than ideal, and some of the changes did in my view not help the tactical element. One example: getting rid of templates. At least until 3rd ed (not sure about 4th) if you e.g. wanted to hit something with a flamer, you didn't roll D6 auto-hits or d3 or d6 or 2d6 for various pieces of ordnance, but you used different sized templates to figure out how many you'd hit. That meant that if you were squeezing units behind a building or in cover, you would risk potentially more damage from such an attack. In fact, one of the big changes from 2nd to 3rd ed was that they removed a lot of the extra rolls that don't really constitute a meaningful tactical decision.

What I find odd in 8th is the sheer number of rolls in order to find out if my attack caused any damage or not. In 8th what can easily happen is that you first roll e.g. 2d3 to see how many shots you fire, then roll the resulting dice to hit, with eventual re-rolls for hit rolls subject to various auras, then you roll to wound, again with possible re-rolls, then the opponent rolls armour saves, sometimes one by one if they happen to be multi-wound models and the weapon shooting has let's say d3 damage, then you might still have a feel-no-pain save on top of that (sometimes army-wide, sometimes for specific models, sometimes via stratagem, sometimes via psyker). What of all of this dice rolling does really benefit the strategic or tactical decision on the field of play? It's a lot of busywork that could be just a bit streamlined. In 3rd you'd just roll for hit and place the template, or in a few cases you just put the template in range to find out how many models you hit. As pointed out above, the core rules of 8th are reasonably lean, but with every new codex they just added more and more stuff to the system.

Thus I like how Warcry throws a few of these rolls out of the window and it's as simple as: roll number of attack dice vs. target number based on strength vs. toughness -> damage! And since I read the warcry rules I wonder if they could just do something similar to 40k, which has way more models, but at the same time uses much more dice rolls to establish if "A shoots at B" results in B falling over. Command points and stratagems can stay I don't worry about them, it's just the number of steps to resolve damage that slows the game down too much IMO.

3rd Ed already had assault weapons, and there were assault armies. I think there was only one single model in my Tyranids army that could not move and shoot. It was a glorious time where I managed 1st turn charges with frightening regularity. Yes some of it was silly, e.g. that a tank could not even roll an inch forward without losing the ability to fire, but nobody here suggests to go back to the dark ages of rapid fire weapons only shooting 12" after having moved.

Also, finishing a 1500 points battle well under 2 hours was normal in 3rd ed.

Other than books that are part of a series, you can pick up almost any book as your first in 40k. Is there any specific faction you particularly like? Then I would suggest to start with a book about that faction.

Examples include...
Sisters of Battle: https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/getting-started/sisters-of-battle-omnibus-ebook.html
Tau: https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/getting-started/crisis-of-faith.html
Aeldari: https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/getting-started/ghost-warrior-rise-of-the-ynnari-ebook.html
Chaos Space Marines: https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/getting-started/the-talon-of-horus-ebook.html
Space Marines (and chaos space marines, and sisters of battle): https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/novels/smc-apocalypse-ebook-2019.html
Adeptus Mechanicus: https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/novels/servants-of-the-machine-god-ebook.html
Imperial Knights: https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/novels/kingsblade-ebook.html
Space Marines vs. Necrons: https://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/novels/the-world-engine-ebook.html
etc.


There are various shops that offer GW products at decent discount, e.g. https://www.goblingaming.co.uk/ for example the know no fear box you linked above:

I'm not sure why amazon acts as if 50 quid was a bargain, even the official GW website offers the box at that price:
I think its cause of the Lockdown tbh, I've seen that set for £30 before, thanks for the link though, I'll check that out

Also, as for factions, I really like the look of the Space Marines, very Fallout esque armor, I kinda like that
 
Last edited:

mcz117chief

Member
Sep 29, 2013
11,759
3,177
690
29
Bohemia
Man, I am so glad templates are gone. The amount of vitriol people threw because they saw something the other guy didn't was just out of this world obnoxious. I hope they never come back. The more of this stuff that is removed the better, no templates, no guessing ranges, none of that shit ever again please. Most matches back then devolved into arguing about tenths of inches and whether that tank is in or not or whether that template's center is over something or not...ugh! That was the worst.

Also, finishing a 1500 points battle well under 2 hours was normal in 3rd ed.
Well, in 4th it was rarely less than 3, usually around 4. I remember how tournaments started at around 8am and lasted till 8pm and we only played 3 matches.
 
Last edited:

Makariel

Member
Jan 14, 2018
2,312
2,372
580
Man, I am so glad templates are gone. The amount of vitriol people threw because they saw something the other guy didn't was just out of this world obnoxious.
Are you really trying to tell me this was common occurence with templates, but somehow has never happened to you regarding the current rules on line of sight? The amount of times I've seen arguments about a micrometer of antenna or the hint of a point of a blade or claw sticking out or not sticking out behind some ruins is IMO comparable to the arguing over a blast template scratching or not scratching the corner of a tank. ;)

Well, in 4th it was rarely less than 3, usually around 4. I remember how tournaments started at around 8am and lasted till 8pm and we only played 3 matches.
Seems 4th was quite a slog then. For all the things wrong with 3rd ed, it was pretty fast to play.

Speaking on what they could do with 9th: this showed up this morning in my youtube recommendations:


I'd agree with some of it (obviously the number of re-rolls :D) with others not so much. Thoughts?

edit:
Oh almost forgot:



 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Stilton Disco

mcz117chief

Member
Sep 29, 2013
11,759
3,177
690
29
Bohemia
Are you really trying to tell me this was common occurence with templates, but somehow has never happened to you regarding the current rules on line of sight? The amount of times I've seen arguments about a micrometer of antenna or the hint of a point of a blade or claw sticking out or not sticking out behind some ruins is IMO comparable to the arguing over a blast template scratching or not scratching the corner of a tank. ;)
Seems 4th was quite a slog then. For all the things wrong with 3rd ed, it was pretty fast to play.
It was a terrible slog.
When it comes to LOS I only ever saw it once when people argued about it for a moment. Most of the time the tables and terrain is open enough so it isn't a factor. It definitely never came up during my games, everyone just sees everybody.


I'd agree with some of it (obviously the number of re-rolls :D) with others not so much. Thoughts?
Most of the stuff I agree with, the CPs, characters, coherency, morale all need a bit of work. I honestly don't have a problem with re-rolls myself. They were always there and if it just an extra moment where you take the dice and roll them again, it never slowed down my games. Maybe other armies have it rough but I played with almost all of them and it never felt like it got in the way. His idea of just adding a +1 could work on some units for sure but then again if you would give +1 to hit to all units that can currently re-roll you would end up with a 2+ hit for most of them. At that point you would need to completely rework the shooting phase, which I would personally like. Actually I would like the whole turn system to get a re-work with activation tokens rather than turns. That way 1st turn advantage is no longer a deciding factor and both players stay engaged during the entire length of the game, as opposed to now where one player went to get his lunch while the other moved and shot. It doesn't happen much in 8th luckily, since the game is a lot faster, but it was super common during the 4th/5th edition during bigger games. The opposing player just left and said to ring him on the phone when your movement/shooting phase is done.