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Warhammer |OT| 40k, AoS, specialist games, other miniature games - Need more DAKKA!

Makariel

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Most of the stuff I agree with, the CPs, characters, coherency, morale all need a bit of work.
I'm not playing custodes or grey knights, so I'm not sure if custodes are really so strapped for CPs. But yeah the character screening by a not visible unit on the other side of the map is a bit silly. I had completely forgotten morale is still in the game tbh, my tyranids are effectively immune to any morale effects unless my enemy shoots away all my synapse creatures. And at that point I might as well concede, so it's never really came up. And with the sisters I typically field minimum sized units, so by the time they lose enough models to potentially fail morale they are pretty much toast already.

I honestly don't have a problem with re-rolls myself.
Re-rolls in isolation are fine. My real issue is the number of steps between deciding which unit shoots until damage resolution. Random number of shots and random damage are another piece of the puzzle. I'm not certain why a flamer can't just have 3 auto hits, a heavy flamer 5, or something like that. Would really be so much lost if every d3 damage weapon just would do flat 2 damage instead?

His idea of just adding a +1 could work on some units for sure but then again if you would give +1 to hit to all units that can currently re-roll you would end up with a 2+ hit for most of them. At that point you would need to completely rework the shooting phase, which I would personally like.
I can't see them completely reworking the Tau phase in the next iteration, unless they would completely re-do some other fundamental systems of the game.

Actually I would like the whole turn system to get a re-work with activation tokens rather than turns. That way 1st turn advantage is no longer a deciding factor and both players stay engaged during the entire length of the game, as opposed to now where one player went to get his lunch while the other moved and shot.
I fully agree with that, and I don't see why they wouldn't be able to have alternative activation like they already do in kill team. Ok you need a token per unit to indicate what they are doing, but indeed both players would be more engaged the whole turn. Systems like Battletech go even one step further, where all damage is allocated at the very end of the turn.
 

mcz117chief

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Systems like Battletech go even one step further, where all damage is allocated at the very end of the turn.
Other games do that too, I remember it from Axis and Allies. A very interesting and fun system, only some special usually close combat weapons did instant damage.
 

Stilton Disco

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Looking through the various editions of the game, I've also got an issue with the amount of wounds everything has now.

Characters have gone from 2, maybe 3 for the more pricey units, to 3 for even basic HQ and some Elites a d 6 or even 7 for some.

Worse, the number of normal units that are 2 wounds has exploded. Given Primaris are the new basic unit, thats the majority of peoples armies now that need an additional variable counter to keep track of odd numbers of wounds.

I really think instead of 2 wounds and attacks they should have just made them strength and toughness 5.
 

Makariel

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Other games do that too, I remember it from Axis and Allies. A very interesting and fun system, only some special usually close combat weapons did instant damage.
Don'r remind me of Axis and Allies! I never quite managed to halt that industrial miltary complex even if my surprise attack on Pearl Harbour worked out well enough. I blame it on the Germans though, my ally always threw away too many troops in Karelia and didn't do enough to pressure the West.

Looking through the various editions of the game, I've also got an issue with the amount of wounds everything has now.

Characters have gone from 2, maybe 3 for the more pricey units, to 3 for even basic HQ and some Elites a d 6 or even 7 for some.

Worse, the number of normal units that are 2 wounds has exploded. Given Primaris are the new basic unit, thats the majority of peoples armies now that need an additional variable counter to keep track of odd numbers of wounds.
I've just looked at some of my old 2nd Ed Codex and very rarely had a HQ there more than 4 wounds. That said, the Eldar Exarch were really getting shafted after 2nd Ed. Back then they were elite fighters who could demolish a small army all by themselves, now they are just glorified Sergeants.

There are other troops with multiple wounds (Tyranid warriors for example), so it's not as if Primaris were the first. But yeah, having higher toughness would serve the same purpose as having the extra wound without adding the need to track the extra wound. Except that it would make it pointless to overcharge the plasma weapons of hellblasters. All in all I don't have too many issues with the number of wounds models have, as long as the vast majority would still stay at 1 wound and if weapons would just get rid of damage rolls and rather have flat 1, 2 or 3 damage.
 
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mcz117chief

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Don'r remind me of Axis and Allies! I never quite managed to halt that industrial miltary complex even if my surprise attack on Pearl Harbour worked out well enough. I blame it on the Germans though, my ally always threw away too many troops in Karelia and didn't do enough to pressure the West.
I meant the miniatures game


I even have the aerial combat game models in my stash. Angels 20.

Worse, the number of normal units that are 2 wounds has exploded. Given Primaris are the new basic unit, thats the majority of peoples armies now that need an additional variable counter to keep track of odd numbers of wounds.
You don't need special counters since you can't spread damage among individual models in a unit. So at worst one of your marines will have 1 wound but everyone will still be at 2.

I really think instead of 2 wounds and attacks they should have just made them strength and toughness 5.
That just promotes power creep. Increasing stats like that is very dangerous. W stat is the easiest to increase since it doesn't really make the unit stronger, just slightly more durable. They need to keep Space Marines relatively week so that they need to field large armies just like anybody else. If they made them lore accurate they would cost 500 points a model and have enormous stats, but that is besides the point. My point is that GW is trying to keep models generally weak so they cost a small amount of points so you need to buy a ton of them for bigger battles. It just makes more business sense.
 
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Stilton Disco

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I meant the miniatures game


I even have the aerial combat game models in my stash. Angels 20.



You don't need special counters since you can't spread damage among individual models in a unit. So at worst one of your marines will have 1 wound but everyone will still be at 2.


That just promotes power creep. Increasing stats like that is very dangerous. W stat is the easiest to increase since it doesn't really make the unit stronger, just slightly more durable. They need to keep Space Marines relatively week so that they need to field large armies just like anybody else. If they made them lore accurate they would cost 500 points a model and have enormous stats, but that is besides the point. My point is that GW is trying to keep models generally weak so they cost a small amount of points so you need to buy a ton of them for bigger battles. It just makes more business sense.
I know how it works with distributing wounds, but if you're fielding an all Primaris army (something that's becoming increasingly common) then after a couple of turns there's a good chance half you're units require a counter to keep track of the odd number wound those units took.

Toughness 5 would work out with roughly the same number of lost units when taking into account bolters, the default weapon in the game, while still showing a clear suprioty over Space Marines but also increasing the viability of a lot of other armies that pack lower strength weaponry.

All of which would mean both a slight streamlining of gameplay, a relatively minor change for most battles given probably 90% of players are fielding marines, but also a way to make other factions more competitive and give GW an excuse to slightly reduce Primaris points cost, which, as you said would boost sales.

Also I don't buy the power creep arguement on bumping Strength and Toughness. There has already been a massive and far more complicated creep in both wounds and attacks, which has led to a overly large number of dice rolls and more variables to track.

Like you say, overcharging plasma is necessary because of the multiple wounds, but so are all the extra attacks everything has.

Reduce the wounds, and you can reduce the attacks, and with it the dice rolling bloat.
 
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Makariel

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Perhaps, we will have to see how it progresses from here. I'm not against it personally, just as long as the game keeps up its current pace at least I'll be happy.
I think we're all just arguing about the precise path to keep the game fast to play but also interesting ;) I don't think anyone wants to get back to tabletop wargames taking 8 hours and a bit for a medium sized engagement.
 
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mcz117chief

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Would you guys like to see some kind of duel system? I just played Warhammer Mark of Chaos again and I love how each hero has three skill trees: one for commanding troops (buffs), one for special skills (powerful sweeping attacks, long range blasts etc.) and dueling skills which can only be used when two heroes meet face to face, create a fire circle around them and duke it out man to man. I would love something like that to appear in tabletop. Have the option to buy heroes going from lvl 1 all the way to like lvl 20 or 100 or whatever with each lvl up costing some points and giving the character one point to spend on abilities.
 

Stilton Disco

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So I went down the rabbit hole of alternate 40K scenarios (Brighthammer, the Dornian Heresy, the Lorgar Letdown) the other night, and that got me thinking of points in 40K where a small change could have had huge knock-on effects.

For instance, what if Ferrus Manus and Fulgrim got flipped. The Iron Hands are assigned to deal with the Laer, while the Emperor's Children the Diasperex.

Ferrus would be no more aware of the dangers of Chaos than Fulgrim, and his own pride and curiosity would likely allow the Keeper of Secrets to worm its way in too.

Which leads to the thought of what a Slaaneshi Iron Hands would look like, and it hit me: H R Geiger!

Biomechanical, psychosexual, black armoured, transhuman, murderous fuckboys! If anything they'd make Noisemarines seem quaint.

Also I then thought of something way worse than just getting possessed by the Laer Blade: Ferrus makes it a biomechanical body that looks like a hermaphraditic Fulgrim to inhabit. And then they'd bang.

I think I might need to pick up some Xenomorph miniatures and Chaos Marines and make some of these abominations.

So, anyone else got any ideas for small changes that would have huge consequences? Nothing that would have anyone acting out of character, but just putting different people in the unwinable situations others found themselves in?
 
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Makariel

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I've been thinking about how a mirror heresy would work (not familiar with the Dornian Heresy), but I always find it difficult to get Magnus on the right side, he does everything wrong. What if instead of Horus, Chaos would have turned any of the other Primarchs. The easiest to explain would be the Lion, since Caliban is already swamped in warp-fuckery so it's less of a stretch that he got a bug there. Istvaan would be effectely be reversed, with Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard stabbing the poor Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Word Bearers in the back. A lot of it would be mirrored, e.g. the Night Lords swapping places with the Raven Guard, Wolves and Thousand Sons still tearing itself apart but with loyalties swapped.

The "Dark (Angels) Heresy"

Traitors:
Lion El'Johson (chaos undivided, killed by the Emperor), Sanguinius (Demon Prince of Khorne), Ferrus Manus (Giger-esque Demon Prince of Slaneesh), Rouboute Guilliman (Over-ambitious Demon Prince of Tzeentch), Vulkan (regenerating Demon Prince of Nurgle), Jagathai Khan, Leman Russ, Rogal Dorn (Demon Prince of Chaos Undivided), Corvus Corax (killed by Imperial Assassin)

Loyalists:
Horus (dies saving the Emperor), Lorgar (killed on Istvaan, in 40k saint second only to the Emperor), Perturabo (decimated on Istvaan), Konrad Curze (nearly killed on Istvaan, goes full Batman after most his legion gets slaughtered), Angron, Fulgrim, Mortarion, Magnus, Alpharius (always loyal ;) killed by Dorn)
 

Stilton Disco

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I've been thinking about how a mirror heresy would work (not familiar with the Dornian Heresy), but I always find it difficult to get Magnus on the right side, he does everything wrong. What if instead of Horus, Chaos would have turned any of the other Primarchs. The easiest to explain would be the Lion, since Caliban is already swamped in warp-fuckery so it's less of a stretch that he got a bug there. Istvaan would be effectely be reversed, with Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard stabbing the poor Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Word Bearers in the back. A lot of it would be mirrored, e.g. the Night Lords swapping places with the Raven Guard, Wolves and Thousand Sons still tearing itself apart but with loyalties swapped.

The "Dark (Angels) Heresy"

Traitors:
Lion El'Johson (chaos undivided, killed by the Emperor), Sanguinius (Demon Prince of Khorne), Ferrus Manus (Giger-esque Demon Prince of Slaneesh), Rouboute Guilliman (Over-ambitious Demon Prince of Tzeentch), Vulkan (regenerating Demon Prince of Nurgle), Jagathai Khan, Leman Russ, Rogal Dorn (Demon Prince of Chaos Undivided), Corvus Corax (killed by Imperial Assassin)

Loyalists:
Horus (dies saving the Emperor), Lorgar (killed on Istvaan, in 40k saint second only to the Emperor), Perturabo (decimated on Istvaan), Konrad Curze (nearly killed on Istvaan, goes full Batman after most his legion gets slaughtered), Angron, Fulgrim, Mortarion, Magnus, Alpharius (always loyal ;) killed by Dorn)
There's both the Dornian and Roboutian Heresies that flip Traitor and Loyalists.

The thing is the way the Primarch's are written it's hard to make some turning or staying loyal be believable.

The Lion was tempted by chaos as an infant and rejected it, and the Emperor was never in doubt of his first son falling to the ruinous powers. The same with Leman Russ. Sure, he was savage and hit tempered, but he considered himself a true son of the Emperor, and accepted his role as the savage executioner despite his hidden depths.

Conversly, Angron and Mortarian despised the Emperor, and were the first to turn on him without any kind of corruption or manipulation by chaos.

Then there's Fulgrim and Magnus, both of which were entirely loyal, but either tricked or forced to turn traitor by outside manipulation. Even Lorgar wasn't inherently evil. Take away Erubus and Kor Feron and, as vulnerable and hurt as he was after Monarchia, I doubt he'd have started worshipping chaos.

Amongst the loyalists, it's interesting as to which Primarch's the Emperor didn't trust. As much as hindsight paints the Khan as honour bound to the Emperor, no one was able to predict where his loyalties would fall. With manipulation, he could well have ended up at the side of Horus, at least before the corruption truly set in.

More surprising given his status in 40K currently, is the fact that the Emperor didn't trust Guilliman at all, and expected him to be using his hypothetical logic exercises to excuse his creating his own secessionist kingdom beyond the ruinstorm, which od course was entirely accurate.

Without the Lion and Sanguinius, Guilliman probably would have just let the Imperium burn and then assured himself afterwards that there was nothing he could do and took the right course of action, that he wasn't being selfish or ambitious, just practical.
 

Makariel

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I've been putting together some Warcry models. I'm really looking forward to paint some fantasy stuff in between, I've done enough power armour for now and can do with something different!
 

Greedings

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I've been avoiding this topic for a while, mainly because I've gotten over my warhammer addition and don't want to relapse.

However, I'm pretty excited that a goblin/ork update for Warhammer II Total War is out now. Pretty excited to play!

Would love to see a 40K game, since in my opinion, there isn't a single good one.
 

Stilton Disco

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The reveal was almost 2 hours with barely 4 points of information, but there's been some bloody awesome leaks rhat have included a huge number up new Prumaris that don't look like tacticool generic sci fi dudes:

















Shame the new Assualt Marines don't seem to have Jump Packs, but that's an easy enough thing to fix.

If Primaris had looked like these feim the get go I'd have had far less of a problem with them, although it still looks like they're limited in terms of load out choices and are likely a different unit, with slightly different rules for each weapon variant.
 

Makariel

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The primaris bikers were kind of leaked some time ago, so no surprise but nice to see them in high definition and not as blurry screengrab. I do like the sergeant(?) with the volkite pistol, which hopefully means some more options for primaris marines in general. I guess the assault primaris don't necessarily need jump packs if you pack them into an impulsor. Would be nice to have the option though. Also wonder if we will see primaris grey knights with 9th, and I guess chaos will get their twisted version of 2-wound marines as well at some point.

Since the old Codex remains valid until the new version comes along, together with all the psychic awakening stuff, I guess the 9th Ed. is shaping up to be more of a 8.5 than a real new edition. Also nice to see some new Necron models.

For hyping this "biggest reveal EVARRRR" so much the past few days I'd have expected a bit more though.
 
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Stilton Disco

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It reminded me of the shitty E3 conferences and game pressers of the past few years. Barely any content, then 20 minutes of inane discussion mostly by people no one cares about.

They should have just revealed a model, shown it from different angles, shown variants with different poses/equipment in different paint schemes, then discussed the rules for it and its intended battlefield role, niche and synergies, all for no more than 5 minutes before moving on to the next one.

They also should have built up to the new 9th edition boxed game reveal, teaser shots of the included armies and paraphernalia, then had a proper reveal of the Silent King as the one more thing.

What we got felt sloppy, overly long and all bark with no bite.
 
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mcz117chief

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The primaris bikers were kind of leaked some time ago, so no surprise but nice to see them in high definition and not as blurry screengrab. I do like the sergeant(?) with the volkite pistol, which hopefully means some more options for primaris marines in general. I guess the assault primaris don't necessarily need jump packs if you pack them into an impulsor. Would be nice to have the option though. Also wonder if we will see primaris grey knights with 9th, and I guess chaos will get their twisted version of 2-wound marines as well at some point.

Since the old Codex remains valid until the new version comes along, together with all the psychic awakening stuff, I guess the 9th Ed. is shaping up to be more of a 8.5 than a real new edition. Also nice to see some new Necron models.

For hyping this "biggest reveal EVARRRR" so much the past few days I'd have expected a bit more though.
It was pretty obvious from the get go that 8th edition would effectively be the start of a "modular" rule-set with just smaller or larger "updates" either via new books or erratas. I don't expect any major changes for 9th edition, just fix some of the dumb stuff from 8th like character targeting.

I am looking forward to updates for explosive weapons. In 8th edition some weapons saw a really odd usage, for example Basilisk being used primarily as an anti-tank weapon as its anti-infantry potential was very weak (mostly, it was definitely weak against big armies but awesome against knights and such). Perhaps now it will have 1d6 shots against vehicles or squad below the size of 6 and 2d6 against larger squads or something. Some weapons already do that.
 
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Makariel

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A picture of the new Necron on the horizon via Reddit. Between this guy and the rest of the new Necron line I'm inclined to get a bunch of them for fun...

So most of the current Necron models were from 3rd, before that we got new lines of GSC and Sisters, which didn't really have much new models since RT respectively 2nd Edition times. So if they go in that sequence Guard, Tyranids, Tau and Eldar are all good candidates for being next up after Necron. All of them have quite a significant chunk of their current lines originating from 3rd Edition. While Space Marines and Chaos will likely just continue to get a more or less constant string of updates.

Also, the Primaris Judicar (Chaplain?) painted:

 
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Stilton Disco

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Bit bummed that the Silent King is another big diorama figure. I really don't like when they pad out the price with unnecessary scenery.

Still, I do like the look of the new Necrons. Kind of want to paint them up in sandstone colours with gold, blues and reds like Egyptian statues come to life.

The Judiciar looks cool too. Cross between a Chaplain and 8th company captain by the look and sound of it. Really does look a lot like a Stormcast Eternal though...
 

Mr Nash

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I'm curious who the Necrons will clash with first lore-wise now that the Silent King is back. There's a lot of options, which I'm sure is something GW thought about. Fight everyone at once? Stop the Tyranids from gobbling up all that bio matter that could be flesh hosts for Necron souls? Decide that Chaos is a priority target? I'm sure the Aeldari have a bone to pick with the Necrons too. In any case, it'll be fun to watch.
 

Stilton Disco

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I'm curious who the Necrons will clash with first lore-wise now that the Silent King is back. There's a lot of options, which I'm sure is something GW thought about. Fight everyone at once? Stop the Tyranids from gobbling up all that bio matter that could be flesh hosts for Necron souls? Decide that Chaos is a priority target? I'm sure the Aeldari have a bone to pick with the Necrons too. In any case, it'll be fun to watch.
My guess: The Lion returns in the northern side of the Imperium and allies with the Necrons against Chaos and the Tyranids, while the Southern Imperium allies further with the Eldar under Guilliman against the Necrons, eventually leading to Civil War 2.0.
 

Makariel

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Been spending the weekend building a bunch of models, so put together 3 Warcry warbands (Untamed Beasts, Stormcast, Nighthaunt), warcry beasts of chaos, a squad of Celestians, and a squad of Eldar Banshees. Also base coated the latter two, I guess a few painting sessions are in order. For the Nighthaunt I'm thinking of giving zenithal highlights a try:


 
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Makariel

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Goonhammer wrote up a transcript of the 9th Ed Q&A:

Some points:
Overwatch is changing (to help CC armies, what you hear now is the cries of all Tau players) as well as falling back (New core Stratagems to give melee armies a boost and make it worth going across the board)
Anything that Tanks can do, Monsters can do just as well "if not better". Monsters will be fighting you in the fighting phase and shoot in the shooting phase. Good time to magnetise my Carnifexes!
Terrain can block LOS "No longer able to shoot through three windows and a postbox and clip the wing of a Carnifex. "
Blast should help randomness of larger weapons, but random shots are still a thing (meh)
Everyone starts with same number of CP, depending on army size, there will be different CP generation during game
-> how armies are put together will change quite a bit
It will cost CP to soup armies, example given: you can pay CP to have a knight in your army
4 Army Sizes: Combat Patrol, Onslaught, Strike Force, Incursion
Can spend CP to put units in reserve
Reserves can come from different table edges in later turns.
Old Codexes will remain valid until new ones come, which will also include Crusade rules.
Morale phase has been reworked