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Warning! Official VRR unsolvable problem in oled TVs!

Venuspower

Member
This is true for the gamma shift issue only. But, for me its not a big deal to be honest. I went from 120hz to 60hz and didnt notice any difference in gamma.


The biggest problem is the gamma flickering, which happens when you get a small spike in frametime (stutter), and the higher the framerate is, the worst it gets. I know this by doing a lot of tests in my system (RTX 3080 + LG C9)

Yes and no. Both issues are tied together somehow.
OLEDs always had issues with near blacks. And they of course still have.
Back in 2018 or so LG rolled out an update to disguise the near black flashing issue
on those TVs. They introduced some sort of "black crush" to make this issue less noticable.
But with the gamma shift introduced by VRR this method becomes useless. Because you now see
see issue again. Even without VRR you can spot near black flashing on OLEDs. Just make sure
you are using Gamma 2.2 or lower. In a dark room those flashes in near black areas should be really easy to
see. Especially with heavily compressed content.

It is actually quite interesting that you are experiencing the exact opposite effect on your TV.
I also have a C9. And for me and other people I know it is always less noticable the
higher our FPS are.
 
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Reallink

Member
You don't have a OLED panel lol
Even so your gamma is fucked with VRR with that Samsung Q80T.


IMO you should wait 2021 models that will mostly fix all the issues at hardware level.

I would say 2022 is much more likely. The '21's hardware was likely finalized well before this issue "went public". For comparison, it took Panasonic 2 model years to fix the voltage overshoots that led to their Plasma's infamous rising black levels.
 
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carsar

Member
They have... all of them.
But you have more control to avoid these issues.
For example if you can make your game solid in framerate you won't see the issue happening and in PC you can manage to reach that.
sounds disappointing. I've been hoping BFI+VRR combo could bring us great motion clarity and picture quality. So, if vrr ruins picture quality, I guess dynamic resolution +BFI 85/100/120hz would be best option. But we need really good impementation of dynamic res, which can handle really stable frame rate, not that shit with unstable 100...120fps. Just one rock solid target(I would prefer 100hz/100fps because it is easilly achivable),
 
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ethomaz

Banned
I would say 2022 is much more likely. The '21's hardware was likely finalized well before this issue "went public". For comparison, it took Panasonic 2 model years to fix the voltage overshoots that led to their Plasma's infamous rising black levels.
Yeap... unless you have a broken TV I think it is still recommended to wait new future models.
I'm still holding my 2012 Samsung PLASMA with it own set of issues but I really like the image quality and low display lag for games... been thinking to change the TV for this new generation but I'm not in hurry... I will probably wait to choose a TV for the next 10 years.
 
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Reallink

Member
Hmm, maybe for some reason Q80T doesn't have this issue.

Unless you have a $20,000+ mastering monitor beside it, or a spectophotometer/colorimeter, this isn't an issue the average layman will ever notice, even with knowledge of it. Out of the box, even in their most accurate picture mode, 95% of TV's have nonlinear gamma performance, usually erring above/below 2.2 and far above/below BT.1886 at different IRE. Local dimming algorithms further throw these issues into hyperdrive.
 
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Expected this going in as the rumblings were there. Thing is, it isn't noticable in any of the VRR situations I've run on Series X. There are bigger flaws to OLED, this seems closer to flicker on my PC monitor with vrr solutions turned on.

And really, it all makes sense, try Black Frame Insertion at low, medium and high. Notice the dimming. Now you are asking the gamma curve to magically get it right all the time with unstable BFI. Some point in that attempt, assumptions will be made by tech, pixels need their power to turn on, and its a limitation that will show up in all TVs as they tackle VRR. Imagine complicating this equation with localized dimming zones on LED that already have challenges. That is my understanding.

At the end of the day, OLED tech looks good, VRR is working to drive a more consistent experience (AC Vahalla), and there is a chance at flicker in the blacks in scenarios. If you are that sensitive, you will never be able to see past OLED panel uniformity issues when playing games that insist on dark gray instead of just black screens.

The fact is, you'll see past it because the picture is leaps and bounds better, to the point where flaws stand out more.
 
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Leyasu

Member

That below is suppose to be a black screen... maybe it is black for you.


Fuck. My tv would be going back if noticed anything like that.
 

TonyK

Member
I have a question. I see several persons referring to 100-120 fps. But what about 50-60fps when the TV is a 60hz? Same flickering problem or is it only appreciable at 120 hz?
 

DanEON

Member
Yes and no. Both issues are tied together somehow.
OLEDs always had issues with near blacks. And they of course still have.
Back in 2018 or so LG rolled out an update to disguise the near black flashing issue
on those TVs. They introduced some sort of "black crush" to make this issue less noticable.
But with the gamma shift introduced by VRR this method becomes useless. Because you now see
see issue again. Even without VRR you can spot near black flashing on OLEDs. Just make sure
you are using Gamma 2.2 or lower. In a dark room those flashes in near black areas should be really easy to
see. Especially with heavily compressed content.

It is actually quite interesting that you are experiencing the exact opposite effect on your TV.
I also have a C9. And for me and other people I know it is always less noticable the
higher our FPS are.
I think its dependent on the game and system you have. But the gamma flickering is related to frametime, so a small frametime spike will result in a gamma flash, no matter if you are at low or hight framerate. Maybe the games I tested have worse frametime at high framerate.
 

DanEON

Member
I have a question. I see several persons referring to 100-120 fps. But what about 50-60fps when the TV is a 60hz? Same flickering problem or is it only appreciable at 120 hz?
You will get the flicker when the game stutters (frametime spike), no matter if its on 60 or 120fps.
This was very evident when Horizon Zero Dawn was launched on PC, and had a lot of performance issue, and the game was a stutter mess. And with every stutter, there was a gamma flash. Now, with the lastest patches, I have zero gamma flicker, even with the framerate varying from ~70 to ~110fps.
 

TonyK

Member
You will get the flicker when the game stutters (frametime spike), no matter if its on 60 or 120fps.
This was very evident when Horizon Zero Dawn was launched on PC, and had a lot of performance issue, and the game was a stutter mess. And with every stutter, there was a gamma flash. Now, with the lastest patches, I have zero gamma flicker, even with the framerate varying from ~70 to ~110fps.
So it can be addressed via game patch? Then I don't understand why it seems a problem with the oled panels.
 

rofif

Gold Member
These are my fav gamma testing images.
With proper gamma on 1st image, the room should be visible. If it's not, the blacks are crushed.


First image tested darkness. 2nd tests brightness. If You see image corruption on the sides of the menu, gamma is too low. The banding/corruption is only exposed by too low gamma/washed out image
 

CAB_Life

Member
My samsung Q80T is doesn't have any issues. I have also looked really hard and switched back and forth to see if it washes out the blacks and it doesn't.

Then my Q80T is busted because as soon as I enable VRR the blacks are crushed and gamma goes to shit. There's numerous threads on the Samsung forums about this exact issue. What source are you using? XSX or PC?
 

CAB_Life

Member

That below is suppose to be a black screen... maybe it is black for you.


This is exactly what I was looking for, yes. It's terrible and I'm hoping it's not an issue with the chipset itself. I still have a week to return the TV.
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
Kind of rules out playing many AAA games at native 4k resolution on any PC or console though.

Really wanna get a CX, love G-sync, but HDMI 2.1 and VRR issues are a bit scary. I guess the KS8000 lives on! :D

I got a CX recently because I wanted to use VRR with high settings in 4k. It's a bit disappointing but it still looks a lot better than KS8000 (well mine is KS8500 the curved version). If I had gotten a 3080 instead I could have just run games in locked 60 on one of the two Samsung TV's here but I had already abandoned the KS8000 for any hdr games because gamma looks bad on it in HDR (well that and it's edge lit). If you're not picky the KS8000 still looks good. I only wanted to update from two tv without VRR because I hate tearing.
 

TheStam

Member
I got a CX recently because I wanted to use VRR with high settings in 4k. It's a bit disappointing but it still looks a lot better than KS8000 (well mine is KS8500 the curved version). If I had gotten a 3080 instead I could have just run games in locked 60 on one of the two Samsung TV's here but I had already abandoned the KS8000 for any hdr games because gamma looks bad on it in HDR (well that and it's edge lit). If you're not picky the KS8000 still looks good. I only wanted to update from two tv without VRR because I hate tearing.

I understand you, I've been dreaming about getting the CX 65, I'm sure it's really amazing but I'm trying to resist over here :). Especially since HDMI 2.1 would make me want to get a 3-series GPU as well, and after all that my gf would probably execute me on the spot.
 
This is why I just ordered the best living room OLED, Sony A8H. Best model chosen by the same channel to living rooms, and I dont care about VRR anyway so even if it would work, I would not miss it:messenger_savoring:



I know what I have. Everyone is saying that all types of panels are affected. So I replied.

Also read my post below regarding my set. Please, don’t talk like you are an expert. The only thing you are an expert of is fanboyism

Get out with that filty lcd "qled" :messenger_angry:

OP clearly says "all OLED panels"

It is annoying that every time someone talks about OLED, some samsung fanatics come to spam something about their QLED because they dont know how to read O != Q. Or they just feel that qled is some magical thing that competes with oled and it must be mentioned. Which one are you?

Samsung marketing is genius, makes people think that QLED == OLED:messenger_tears_of_joy: I have read it +50 times how someone talks about qled being oled, and then "ohh?!" when someone states it is not oled.


Anyway, cheap low quality QLED samsungs have nothing to do with OLED panels topic
 

gundalf

Member
I have the LG CX and I don't see those issues, but I'm not hardcore enough, I just have a One X and a PS4 Pro.
If its really an issue then I just turn off VRR and here we go.
 
So, I'm about 3 weeks from buying a LG 48" CX OLED, and a PS5. Will this be an issue for me? I only really care about 60Hz.
 

Leyasu

Member
Then my Q80T is busted because as soon as I enable VRR the blacks are crushed and gamma goes to shit. There's numerous threads on the Samsung forums about this exact issue. What source are you using? XSX or PC?

I just did a few more tests tonight, and I didn't see anything.

One thing to note, in the EU, the 2020 QLEDs don't have the anti-reflective filter that the US models have and have a higher contrast ratio.

What games are the worst for you? I will check them on my tv and let you know my results. I am using an XsX
 
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TrebleShot

Member
Turn VRR off, games should be optimized to be as consistent as possible if that means dropping res or graphical features so be it or just focus on 30fps, MM looks fantastic on a C9 with clear and smooth motion in 30FPS.
 

Leyasu

Member
This is why I just ordered the best living room OLED, Sony A8H. Best model chosen by the same channel to living rooms, and I dont care about VRR anyway so even if it would work, I would not miss it:messenger_savoring:





Get out with that filty lcd "qled" :messenger_angry:

OP clearly says "all OLED panels"

It is annoying that every time someone talks about OLED, some samsung fanatics come to spam something about their QLED because they dont know how to read O != Q. Or they just feel that qled is some magical thing that competes with oled and it must be mentioned. Which one are you?

Samsung marketing is genius, makes people think that QLED == OLED:messenger_tears_of_joy: I have read it +50 times how someone talks about qled being oled, and then "ohh?!" when someone states it is not oled.


Anyway, cheap low quality QLED samsungs have nothing to do with OLED panels topic
GTFO. Everyone is saying the LCD's are impacted also. Plus, I would have bought an OLED if it wasn't for the burn in and the fact that my kids have Roblox or minecraft with their nasty HUDs on all the time. Also, if you must know, I am just looking for an excuse to return the set as it is. I would prefer waiting til the spring when the 2021 models are released though. That is why I have searched for these issues. The DSE is pissing me right off and I want more than that when I hit the shop for a refund.

Why do people assume that they know anything about the poster when they go on their idiotic rants. Fucking toxic communtiy on here
 
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It's not a real issue IMO, few people will actually notice it or even know what it looks like, also the gamma shift is present on other TV's like Samsungs were its much worse, You dont see people complaining about that why...

Because the complaining comes from the extreme video nerds on avsforums who all use OLED then it got picked up and pushed by Youtubers looking for clicks (FOMO loves his clickbait). Another thing no-one talks about but the extreme video nerds love to is Dolby Vision has raised black levels because of bugs in Dolby stack but thats not sexy enough to for Youtubers.

You can also compensate for the gamma shift via video calibration if it really bothers you.

If you want to complain about OLED by far the biggest problem is that its ill-suited for low frame rate games at 30FPS which will stutter due to the panels ultra fast response time and how sample and hold video tech works. You ideally want 60fps minimum on an OLED and ideally higher, these displays excel at high frame rates.
 
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Nydus

Gold Member
Huh. When I heard of it I also tried to look for it with my B9. Asscreed odyssey at 4k. Hovering around 70 to 80 fps in a really dark cave. Everything looked normal. So I decided to just not care. :p
 

cheezcake

Member
The main item I notice this is in the in the menus of AC Valhalla because they have a bug which causes really spiky frametimes on PC. I haven’t really noticed it in the actual gameplay of either Valhalla or Cold War.
 

KillaJamm

Member
Been playing on my B9 with VRR enabled since about April and noticed nothing wrong with the image? I have pretty bad OCD so you must really have to go looking for the issue? I mean tbh I've been playing ALOT of Valhalla on my XSX and have not experienced a single tear so thats enough for me to keep it on.
 

KillaJamm

Member
Been playing on my B9 with VRR enabled since about April and noticed nothing wrong with the image? I have pretty bad OCD so you must really have to go looking for the issue? I mean tbh I've been playing ALOT of Valhalla on my XSX and have not experienced a single tear so thats enough for me to keep it on.
FYI TV for gaming is calibrated through the Xbox via the calibration app and HDR app.
 
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You will only really notice this on loading screens as frames drop to single digits there. I have the same issue on my LCD Agon Gsync monitor. You learn to ignore it and as long as frame rates are high you will not even notice it while playing, dropping brightness to 48 helps.
 
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They have... all of them.
But you have more control to avoid these issues.
For example if you can make your game solid in framerate you won't see the issue happening and in PC you can manage to reach that.
Ehhh...some do some don't. It seems to be more common on VA panels than anything else. Some panels also exhibit screwed up gamma and colors at higher refresh rates, which is obviously just going to exacerbate the issue as the refresh changes, though that kind of problem is more likely to crop up if you / the manufacturer are overclocking the panel. I don't have VRR but I will say that my monitor, which is overclocked, is visually indistinguishable between 48Hz and 84Hz (the highest it'll sync to) in normal use cases...aside from it being noticably smoother of course. That being said I can get it to misbehave at 84Hz by doing something funky like displaying pure RGB white noise, which introduces flickering that isn't there if I do the same at 60Hz, but it's not something you're ever going to see in normal day to day use.
 
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