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Was Shadow The Hedgehog better than Sonic Heroes?

Ten fest foreign exchange?

  • Shadow the Hedgehog

    Votes: 16 38.1%
  • Sonic Heroes

    Votes: 26 61.9%

  • Total voters
    42

MvCSpiderman

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People sometimes like to crack on Shadow, sometimes too much, but Heroes was much worse than Shadow on its own engine.

Shadow had more open ended levels.
Powers adding verticality and fast travel.
The ability to freeze time.
Multiple ways to tackle levels.
Every stage was different.
You can play most stages in any order.
Don't have to play same exact stages 4 times.
Co-op
An actual story
No glitchy broken boss fights or carnivals swarms.
Tons of extra and hidden content
Better graphics
Morality system
Better enemy ai
Damn 4th chaos emerald

Sonic Heroes was broken, looked worse, forced you to play every stage that are exactly the same 4 times, and you still had to do more than that unless you got all chaos emeralds on first run, ps2 is 30fps, there's barely a plot, and the hit boxes for ledges and enemy attacks have you getting hit when they miss, or frequently falling into pits. All the characters play the same so that potential advantage is gone.

People usually say they like Heroes more but there's really no advantage Heroes has over Shadow other than an easier final boss.
 
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Saber

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LOL none of them were "better", theres only a worse between them. Shadow was probably worse because of how stupid dark it tried to be, but that doesn't exclude the fact that both were terrible additions to the series. Heroes maybe not a good game overall but there was a kind of potential initially(the idea/concept). The application is still bad though, bad plataforming and a bunch of clone teams probably didn't help. No wonder people dislike Sonic characters.
 

cireza

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I largely prefer Shadow the Hedgehog. Game was more fun, many gameplay elements were adjusted. Even though vehicles kinda suck, it was still a fun game with a lot of replayability.
 

01011001

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worseness scale of 3D Sonic from unplayable to decent:
Sonic Boom > Sonic 06 > Sonic Adventure > Shadow the Hedgehog > Sonic Heroes > Sonic Unleashed > Sonic Adventure 2 > Sonic Generations > Sonic Colors > Sonic Lost World
 
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Omeggos

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Jan 12, 2018
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Sonic heroes was better, but honestly that’s a very low bar as both games were borderline trash.

the only game that tops either to be on top of the trash bin pile is sonic ‘06
 
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jimjonjimmy

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People sometimes like to crack on Shadow, sometimes too much, but Heroes was much worse than Shadow on its own engine.

Shadow had more open ended levels.
Powers adding verticality and fast travel.
The ability to freeze time.
Multiple ways to tackle levels.
Every stage was different.
You can play most stages in any order.
Don't have to play same exact stages 4 times.
Co-op
An actual story
No glitchy broken boss fights or carnivals swarms.
Tons of extra and hidden content
Better graphics
Morality system
Better enemy ai
Damn 4th chaos emerald

Sonic Heroes was broken, looked worse, forced you to play every stage that are exactly the same 4 times, and you still had to do more than that unless you got all chaos emeralds on first run, ps2 is 30fps, there's barely a plot, and the hit boxes for ledges and enemy attacks have you getting hit when they miss, or frequently falling into pits. All the characters play the same so that potential advantage is gone.

People usually say they like Heroes more but there's really no advantage Heroes has over Shadow other than an easier final boss.
Shadow was open ended to a fault. The first level for example had the whole choose your side or not at all where if you didn't know about the goal you could miss the good and bad options altogether by accidently grabbing the chaos emerald.
Not playing the stages multiple times is incorrect. For heroes you just need to play each story and then go back and grab any chaos emeralds you may have missed. In Shadow to get the true ending you need to get each standard ending first. Which means going through some stages multiple times with the first stage having to go through a minimum of 10 times.
Co-op doesn't really count since it's the same as some one being tails in the original games meaning they are on screen for up to 2 seconds at a time jus trying to keep up with player 1.
I don't really have an argument for the rest of your points as it's been too long since I have played either game.
 
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Celcius

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I remember liking Sonic Heroes back in the day (had the PC disk version). I never could figure out what I needed to do to fight the final boss though.
 

LRKD

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Shadow was open ended to a fault. The first level for example had the whole choose your side or not at all where if you didn't know about the goal you could miss the good and bad options altogether by accidently grabbing the chaos emerald.
I don't understand how you can consider this a fault. That is a terrible example, and I imagine it's just due to you having not played the game in a long time. On level one they give you three very clear goals that you can read at any time by pausing the game.

1) kill all soldiers
2) collect the chaos emerald
3) kill all aliens

It is very clear at the end of the level, that the goal ring with a giant floating chaos emerald inside of it will finish option 2. If you had gotten to the chaos emerald without completing your goal of killing all soldiers or aliens, you will notice behind the emerald is a trail of rings leading to a jump pad taking you further through the stage. Besides if any of this information wasn't clear to the player, the game is all about replayability with completing the different objectives leading to different levels. So next time the player will know not to jump into the ring at the end of the level.
 

LordCBH

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I mean shadow the hedgehog is borderline unplayable 75% of the time. Who cares if the 25% that functions is better?
 

AGRacing

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AzafuseYugi

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LOL none of them were "better", theres only a worse between them. Shadow was probably worse because of how stupid dark it tried to be, but that doesn't exclude the fact that both were terrible additions to the series. Heroes maybe not a good game overall but there was a kind of potential initially(the idea/concept). The application is still bad though, bad plataforming and a bunch of clone teams probably didn't help. No wonder people dislike Sonic characters.
People complain about the variety in the Adventure games, now we have a game that mixes botht he different stories of the Adventure games with the approach to variety of the classic games and people complain. i do agree playing the same teams over and over again can get tedious but honestly the game has tons of charm to the point i can't complain.

and the platfroming isn't that bad either, it's standard sonic platforming, although again it can feel very tedious, Shadow can also feel tedious and the gunplay, taking away the whole edge thing, is honestly very bad. so i honestly can't decide wich is better.
 

Saber

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People complain about the variety in the Adventure games, now we have a game that mixes botht he different stories of the Adventure games with the approach to variety of the classic games and people complain. i do agree playing the same teams over and over again can get tedious but honestly the game has tons of charm to the point i can't complain.

Hence why I said "kind of potential".
The idea of having Sonic, Tails and Knuckles as a trio, using their different abilities is great. But the execution falls short because of several factors. As I mentioned in another thread, a crutial thing about Sonic games is level design. Sonic is a plataforming to the core. But the game it's a mix of blocks, fights, speed sections and other things which actually make the whole idea confusing. You use Sonic to basically everything, while Knuckles and Tails are basically "supports" rather than really team members. Plataforming involves more holding jumping in the hope you don't end in one of hundred endless pits(because the speed of characters make it easy for you to just fall too) and don't get me to mention a stage basically made of rails(the music of stage is good though). Later stages kinda makes you play with Tails somehow but only because theres almost no plataforms lol
There are kart parts that serves to no purpose whatsoever. Those could be simply be taken away and would make no difference(the Mansion stage is basically a rail).
I would even risk saying that the game would do better with only the main team rather than 3 clones. And this is from someone who doesn't mind Chaotix characters for instance. Doing stages and getting A is already a boring process to do, now imagine doing this more 3 times.
 

AzafuseYugi

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Hence why I said "kind of potential".
The idea of having Sonic, Tails and Knuckles as a trio, using their different abilities is great. But the execution falls short because of several factors. As I mentioned in another thread, a crutial thing about Sonic games is level design. Sonic is a plataforming to the core. But the game it's a mix of blocks, fights, speed sections and other things which actually make the whole idea confusing. You use Sonic to basically everything, while Knuckles and Tails are basically "supports" rather than really team members. Plataforming involves more holding jumping in the hope you don't end in one of hundred endless pits(because the speed of characters make it easy for you to just fall too) and don't get me to mention a stage basically made of rails(the music of stage is good though). Later stages kinda makes you play with Tails somehow but only because theres almost no plataforms lol
There are kart parts that serves to no purpose whatsoever. Those could be simply be taken away and would make no difference(the Mansion stage is basically a rail).
I would even risk saying that the game would do better with only the main team rather than 3 clones. And this is from someone who doesn't mind Chaotix characters for instance. Doing stages and getting A is already a boring process to do, now imagine doing this more 3 times.
i don't know, the platfroming is definetely better than say, colors, atleast here it still feels like a sonic stage, and i don't really mind the execution that much, i think the game is just OK due to the tediousness, same with Shadow, it coud've been way better but it isn't too bad either.
 

Saber

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i don't know, the platfroming is definetely better than say, colors, atleast here it still feels like a sonic stage, and i don't really mind the execution that much, i think the game is just OK due to the tediousness, same with Shadow, it coud've been way better but it isn't too bad either.

Sonic Colors fairs way much better imo because it took the mix of 3D with 2D type of plataforming, same used on Unleashed but with more presence. Also, it didn't spam the endless pits things which are more prevalent on Heroes. Thats not to say Colors is perfect, some stages are deadly easy and bosses are quite insulting to the player.
 

LRKD

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Sonic Colors fairs way much better imo because it took the mix of 3D with 2D type of plataforming, same used on Unleashed but with more presence. Also, it didn't spam the endless pits things which are more prevalent on Heroes. Thats not to say Colors is perfect, some stages are deadly easy and bosses are quite insulting to the player.
Uhhh, what 3D platforming? I genuinely don't remember a single piece of 3D platforming in Sonic Colors. It is by far a 2D game, with 3D segments. Those 3D segments totally suck as well. It's a fine 2D game. But to compare it to any 3D games is a joke.

Also, bottomless pits are a staple of platforming. I've seen people complain about them in other platformers too. I always feel like wtf, have you ever played mario bro, bottomless pits are classic platformer lol. I'll totally agree with you though, they do suck in Heroes though due to the games slippery controls, and glitches. But for me that's a complaint about controls and not level design. I think they'd be fine if the game controlled well.
 

AzafuseYugi

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Also, bottomless pits are a staple of platforming. I've seen people complain about them in other platformers too. I always feel like wtf, have you ever played mario bro, bottomless pits are classic platformer lol. I'll totally agree with you though, they do suck in Heroes though due to the games slippery controls, and glitches. But for me that's a complaint about controls and not level design. I think they'd be fine if the game controlled well.
and it's not like it's even unfair like in Scrap Brain from Sonic 1 or Altitude Limit from Sonic Rush, the Adventure games, specially 2 also had tons of those.
 

Saber

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Uhhh, what 3D platforming? I genuinely don't remember a single piece of 3D platforming in Sonic Colors. It is by far a 2D game, with 3D segments. Those 3D segments totally suck as well. It's a fine 2D game. But to compare it to any 3D games is a joke.

Unless you're playing a different game, the game has plataforming alright. And most of them are a kinda of mix with the wisps power-up and are prevalent on the 2D sections. Dude, the first area has plataforming, its impossible to not miss.
And why not count as 3D? Just because of 2D sections? Lol
 
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MvCSpiderman

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Unless you're playing a different game, the game has plataforming alright. And most of them are a kinda of mix with the wisps power-up and are prevalent on the 2D sections. Dude, the first area has plataforming, its impossible to not miss.
And why not count as 3D? Just because of 2D sections? Lol
Because the game is 90% 2.5D and that's barely hyperbole. A good bit of the 3D sections are scripted and near on rails. At least Unleashed had platforming in 3D a lot, quality varying.

Sonic Generations has more 3D than colors too
 

LRKD

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Unless you're playing a different game, the game has plataforming alright. And most of them are a kinda of mix with the wisps power-up and are prevalent on the 2D sections. Dude, the first area has plataforming, its impossible to not miss.
And why not count as 3D? Just because of 2D sections? Lol
Because 70% of the game is 2D. It has platforming in the 2D parts to be sure. But the platforming in 3D... Idk man. it's just not there. Watching the first level, you are right that there is something resembling a 3D platformer. In the first level, you have a hallway with a single rail you can jump on. And a line of three flying robots you can homing attack. That's it. Then it goes to 2D. Which for the first level... I guess is fine, but it never really goes up from that.


The (second to) Last level of colors vs The last Sonic stage of SA2


Calling Sonic Colors a 3D game, it's almost like calling Sonic 3 on the genesis a 3D game for its bonus stages. The large majority of the game is a 2D platformer, and the 3D sections... Well I don't think they even are a platformer, they're more like a temple runner or something lmao. I don't think it is ridiculous in any way to say Sonic colors is a 2D platformer, that is it's genre, that is the focus of the gameplay.
 

MvCSpiderman

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One could also call Forces a 2D platformer too, almost all it's 3D sections are short empty race tracks, sometimes with drifts, sometimes just straight lines. The rest are qte.
 

cireza

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Lost World has 3D platforming done right. It is by far the Sonic game that has the best 3D controls.

Who cares if there isn't much 3D platforming, as long as the games are fun ?
 

Kadve

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Never played either but had an inresting experience back in the day with Shadow.

Having not played a sonic game since 2 and knowing very little about the series (ie, who the hell shadow was). When i first saw the box cover i read it as "shadow of the Hedgehog" and believing it was supposed to be sonic, i thought to myself. "boy these dark and edgy reboots are getting out of hand..."
 

deriks

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No

Heroes is not great, but tries. Shadow is just not a Sonic game - what's the meaning of a creature that runs like hell and uses a bike?!
 

jimjonjimmy

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I don't understand how you can consider this a fault. That is a terrible example, and I imagine it's just due to you having not played the game in a long time. On level one they give you three very clear goals that you can read at any time by pausing the game.

1) kill all soldiers
2) collect the chaos emerald
3) kill all aliens

It is very clear at the end of the level, that the goal ring with a giant floating chaos emerald inside of it will finish option 2. If you had gotten to the chaos emerald without completing your goal of killing all soldiers or aliens, you will notice behind the emerald is a trail of rings leading to a jump pad taking you further through the stage. Besides if any of this information wasn't clear to the player, the game is all about replayability with completing the different objectives leading to different levels. So next time the player will know not to jump into the ring at the end of the level.
Yeah I agree that maybe it's not the best example but I still say that the 2 goals aren't clear for a few reasons. When you play through the stage for the first time you are probably in the mindset that this is just a sonic game. So you run to the end without much thought to it. You will then have bad guy and Sonic swapping back and forth telling you to do 1 of 2 things. So first play through will almost mean you get the chaos emerald at the end. Next playthrough you will know that there is an alternate path and try to go for 1 side. Now here was the not clear part. so throughout the stage both the bad guy and Sonic swap back and forth with you. I'm not sure it's possible to avoid 1 or the other. So now you are trying to go for a side but you have 2 characters swapping back and forth giving you contradicting objectives. Trying to take out one or the other is kinda annoying when the counter at the top keeps changing. So you get to the end now missing both objectives and probably get the chaos emerald again not realizing you can warp back through the level. This will probably repeat a few times till you realize that you can swap paths in the menu and figure out fast travel. Though if I recall correctly the game doesn't tell you where the remaining targets are. This is what I'm getting at here. When the replayability is because the game is fun and you go back to it just to experience it again is one thing, but when the game forces you to replay something over and over again just to figure out what to do or because the game has 10 similar endings that don't even matter in the true ending is not good design.
I know this sounds like my opinion but there are many others that feel this way about the game. I believe there is one infamous level in the game for finding the computer room and I also know there is a painfully slow level I think where you escort Maria.
 

Saber

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Because 70% of the game is 2D. It has platforming in the 2D parts to be sure. But the platforming in 3D... Idk man. it's just not there. Watching the first level, you are right that there is something resembling a 3D platformer. In the first level, you have a hallway with a single rail you can jump on. And a line of three flying robots you can homing attack. That's it. Then it goes to 2D. Which for the first level... I guess is fine, but it never really goes up from that.


The (second to) Last level of colors vs The last Sonic stage of SA2


Calling Sonic Colors a 3D game, it's almost like calling Sonic 3 on the genesis a 3D game for its bonus stages. The large majority of the game is a 2D platformer, and the 3D sections... Well I don't think they even are a platformer, they're more like a temple runner or something lmao. I don't think it is ridiculous in any way to say Sonic colors is a 2D platformer, that is it's genre, that is the focus of the gameplay.


Its a plataformer, wheter you like it or not. Now about 2D sections you're probably right. The game has focus on plataforms on the 2D sections.

But it still remains a 3D game. You're just mixing sematics lol. Its a different genre sure, but it is 3D. Theres no way you can deny its 3D models, I can't even believe you are even comparing with Sonic 4.

Because the game is 90% 2.5D and that's barely hyperbole. A good bit of the 3D sections are scripted and near on rails. At least Unleashed had platforming in 3D a lot, quality varying.

Sonic Generations has more 3D than colors too

Lmao just because one has more than the other doesn't mean it haven't. You aren't even making a better case of your thread.
 
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MvCSpiderman

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Lmao just because one has more than the other doesn't mean it haven't. You aren't even making a better case of your thread.
This thread is about Shadow and Heroes, two 3D games.

Also 3D models don't mean 3D, Colors Is 2.5D which is still a 2D game.
 
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wvnative

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I like em both but in my experience Sonic Heroes is way more polished and more fun to play. Would love a remaster
 

Saber

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Also 3D models don't mean 3D, Colors Is 2.5D which is still a 2D game.

Lol dude of course 3D models means 3D. The entire game is 3D, the only aspect of the game that is 2D is the gameplay build around 2D sections via change of perspective.

Shadow and Heroes is so insignificant for the series that nothing was ever took into consideration to future games besides 06, another failure to the Sonic series.
 
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MvCSpiderman

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Lol dude of course 3D models means 3D. The entire game is 3D, the only aspect of the game that is 2D is the gameplay build around 2D sections via change of perspective.

Shadow and Heroes is so insignificant for the series that nothing was ever took into consideration to future games besides 06, another failure to the Sonic series.

No one cares about your revisionist version of 2.5D. 2.5D was specifically invented to address polygonal 2D games. Your just wrong and ignorant.

Also insignificant?

Sonic Heroes has been the best selling Sonic game the last 18 years.

Shadow sold over 2 million copies.

Insignificant? Failure?
 

Saber

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No one cares about your revisionist version of 2.5D. 2.5D was specifically invented to address polygonal 2D games. Your just wrong and ignorant.

Also insignificant?

Sonic Heroes has been the best selling Sonic game the last 18 years.

Shadow sold over 2 million copies.

Insignificant? Failure?

Lmao, yes failure.

Sonic 06 sold more than those 2. Does that make the game better? Or even a good game?Lmao
Seriously dude, you should try stop make these stupid statements. Your thread already falls short with things like "an actual story". Lol a trash pretentious darky story where the main character is an edgylord that fight with guns, ride bikes(because he can't run, right?) and he beats...the main character of the Sonic series? How stupid this story can be? And don't get me on this ridiculous "this is who I am" at the end of each branch.

And yes, insignificant. The game concept of Heroes was bad enough to not carry over for subsequent games. Did you ever saw Sonic Heroes 2 despite being the "best selling Sonic game"?

"No one cares", aparently you did. Not that I have anything agaisnt people liking them though, but you sound like you're offended of what people think of those games.
 
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MvCSpiderman

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Lmao, yes failure.

Sonic 06 sold more than those 2.
Good job disqualifying yourself.

Sonic Heroes over 3 mill
Shadow over 2 mill
Sonic 2006 700k.

What part of Sonic Heroes was the best selling Sonic game of the last 18 years don't you understand?

You are also assuming likeability, this thread is only about which of these two shared engine games are better, not which is your favorite Sonic game.

Also again this thread is about 3D games, not 2D games like colors. Keep acting like you know what your talking about though, working real well for you so far. Not.

Also lol at Heroes not carrying over to subsequent games, Shadow used the same engine and concepts outside the team thing. Otherwise most 3D Sonic games don't carry over, they are all different outside these two and both Adventure games.

You go on and on and say nothing.
 

Saber

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Good job disqualifying yourself.

Sonic Heroes over 3 mill
Shadow over 2 mill
Sonic 2006 700k.

What part of Sonic Heroes was the best selling Sonic game of the last 18 years don't you understand?

The part where it doesn't have a sequel lmao

Sonic 06 sold more than 800k in the first six months, so I'm not sure where do you came with that numbers.

You are also assuming likeability, this thread is only about which of these two shared engine games are better, not which is your favorite Sonic game.

Your thread already started pretty crappie pushing Shadow the edgyhog while downplaying Heroes as if those 2 weren't mediocre games, don't start playing dumb now.

Also again this thread is about 3D games, not 2D games like colors. Keep acting like you know what your talking about though, working real well for you so far. Not.
Also lol at Heroes not carrying over to subsequent games, Shadow used the same engine and concepts outside the team thing. Otherwise most 3D Sonic games don't carry over, they are all different outside these two and both Adventure games.

Nothing in your thread says otherwise, you're just comparing 2 bad games as if your favorite fairs better than the other. Shadow in no heck share the same concept of Heroes, it's more of "little assistance" rather than team conception. I recommend you replay those games before spreading fake info.

No wonder the Sonic fanbase is the joke of internet. You acting like that reminds me of a guy defending Sonic 06, frankly I'm wondering myself why I'm wasting my time with you here if I already gave you the answer. Discusing about those 2 games is pointless.
 
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MvCSpiderman

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Just another anti-Sonic troll I see.

Lol still arguing 06 sold more than Heroes and Shadow. I don't really care if you dislike the games but you're getting too involved in your breakdown.

Let me know when you find that Sega Sonic 06 1 million announcement, before we even get started on 3 million. For someone who is in the know you sure messed up with that one.
 

Saber

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Remember that liking a game doesn't make them good, kid. Its sad, but it's true. You could aways send a letter to Izuka demaning a Shadow the Hedgehog 2, I mean it was thanks to Sonic fans letters that he started Forces project.

In other news, I'm still wondering how can Shadow Hedgehog story can be any better than Heroes. Is it because it has guns or because Shadow finally defeats Sonic?

Just another anti-Sonic troll I see.
lmao
Walter White I Give Up GIF by Breaking Bad
 
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