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[OmegaSpirit32X]

Remember that liking a game doesn't make them good, kid. Its sad, but it's true. You could aways send a letter to Izuka demaning a Shadow the Hedgehog 2, I mean it was thanks to Sonic fans letters that he started Forces project.

In other news, I'm still wondering how can Shadow Hedgehog story can be any better than Heroes. Is it because it has guns or because Shadow finally defeats Sonic?

honestly this is a hot take but outside of the obvious Boom: Rise of Lyric, Storybook games, and the shitty spinoffs like Sonic Shuffle, there's no real objectivity to wich Sonic games are truly good, many of us here enjoy Shadow, i think it's a fun enjoyable game,

Sonic Heroes' story was just "oh no Metal Sonic is turning against Eggman, gotta fight him" it was simple and it worked for what it was setting out to do, making a lighthearted fun story mixing elements from the old and the new, and it certainly did that waaay better than Colors or Forces did for sure, but it was nothing special.

Shadow on the other hand, had the premise of Shadow having amnesia and Multiple Choices thing just made it more interesting, as everyone besides Sonic & friends was trying to use that to their advantage, the Goverment wants Shadow as a tool to do their work for them, The Aliens and Robotnik want to use Shadow to take over the world, there's stuff like the possibility of Shadow being a clone (wich shoud've been the case honestly) that give the plot a sense of mystery, even the edge is excusable considering Shadow is, again, amnesiac and has that arrgoance that he had in SA2 but without any memories of Maria or anyone like Amy trying to help him, thus he's like a teen trying to find his identity and who he really is, while being haunted by the memories of both his past and the events of SA2, the plot also does a good job at clearing some plotholes from SA2 such as what the Eclipse Canon was for. i also don't mind the swearing because it was honestly the game was still having some fun with it's edgyness. i think it's fine if the characters say some "damn's" from time to time.

 

[OmegaSpirit32X]

No

Heroes is not great, but tries. Shadow is just not a Sonic game - what's the meaning of a creature that runs like hell and uses a bike?!

Shadow wasn't meant to be a Sonic game, it's a spinoff with another character, same could be said for the different gameplay styles of the Adventure games. it's like calling Wario Land a Mario game.

 

[Saber]

honestly this is a hot take but outside of the obvious Boom: Rise of Lyric, Storybook games, and the shitty spinoffs like Sonic Shuffle, there's no real objectivity to wich Sonic games are truly good, many of us here enjoy Shadow, i think it's a fun enjoyable game,

I don't have problem with that. I made it pretty clear, I think people can enjoy whatever they want. Each with their own.

Sonic Heroes' story was just "oh no Metal Sonic is turning against Eggman, gotta fight him" it was simple and it worked for what it was setting out to do, making a lighthearted fun story mixing elements from the old and the new, and it certainly did that waaay better than Colors or Forces did for sure, but it was nothing special.

Totally. If I could describe the level o corny in Heroes would be Sonic final message with Metal, something like "we're Sonic Heroes". But nothing beats Colors in terms of actual dialogue, feels like a cheesie movie.

Shadow on the other hand, had the premise of Shadow having amnesia and Multiple Choices thing just made it more interesting, as everyone besides Sonic & friends was trying to use that to their advantage, the Goverment wants Shadow as a tool to do their work for them, The Aliens and Robotnik want to use Shadow to take over the world, there's stuff like the possibility of Shadow being a clone (wich shoud've been the case honestly) that give the plot a sense of mystery, even the edge is excusable considering Shadow is, again, amnesiac and has that arrgoance that he had in SA2 but without any memories of Maria or anyone like Amy trying to help him, thus he's like a teen trying to find his identity and who he really is, while being haunted by the memories of both his past and the events of SA2, the plot also does a good job at clearing some plotholes from SA2 such as what the Eclipse Canon was for. i also don't mind the swearing because it was honestly the game was still having some fun with it's edgyness. i think it's fine if the characters say some "damn's" from time to time.

And thats were it lies the problem. Sonic stories were never supposed to be that dark. Adventure is the one to blame, where they made even a bigger deal of Knuckles past for instance.
Everything became even more idiotic when Shadow apparently died on Adventure 2 only to emerge again with those games. We being undecided wheter we considered this the real Shadow or just a clone just prove how things didn't end well. Aliens was much of joke at that time, we have even a meme for aliens in writing those days. If someone can explain things properly with a good writting, just say "it was aliens".

Just to be pretty clear I have no problem with people liking this game. But this game imo should never be existed. Shadow it self isn't even supposed to exist, Shadow was a result of a change of plans from the Adventure 2 concept art, where Sonic was supposed to be the dark character of this game(the idea if I remember consist in something like what they did on Unleashed) but in the end they decided to split into 2 characters. Sonic characters are supposed to be a bunch of goofie anthropormical characters, there shouldn't be any dark or deep stuff in there.

 

[OmegaSpirit32X]

And thats were it lies the problem. Sonic stories were never supposed to be that dark. Adventure is the one to blame, where they made even a bigger deal of Knuckles past for instance.
Everything became even more idiotic when Shadow apparently died on Adventure 2 only to emerge again with those games. We being undecided wheter we considered this the real Shadow or just a clone just prove how things didn't end well. Aliens was much of joke at that time, we have even a meme for aliens in writing those days. If someone can'T explain things properly with a good writting, just say "it was aliens".

Just to be pretty clear I have no problem with people liking this game. But this game imo should never be existed. Shadow it self isn't even supposed to exist, Shadow was a result of a change of plans from the Adventure 2 concept art, where Sonic was supposed to be the dark character of this game(the idea if I remember consist in something like what they did on Unleashed) but in the end they decided to split into 2 characters. Sonic characters are supposed to be a bunch of goofie anthropormical characters, there shouldn't be any dark or deep stuff in there.

i Disagree with most if not everything you said there.
firstly, franchises like Kirby, Pokemon and even Mario in the RPG's can get away with being dark, so why can't Sonic? i mean, Mewtwo (atleast in the anime) is pretty much the same character as Shadow with pretty much the same backstory, (both are experiments gone wrong, both lost a loved one, both wanted to destroy humanity because of it before redeeming himself and both were depressed and somewhat traumatized by it) same with Count Bleck (who also lost a loved one and wanted to destroy existance itself because of it before redeeming himself)

Secondly, Sonic always had potential for these kind of plots, he had a anime-esque sharp design even since the classic days, the lore and vague storytelling in the genesis games, also proved that, i think stuff like making a bigger deal out of Knuckles' Past and the new direction and plot structure was a GOOD thing as it was making Sonic's universe reach it's fullest narrative potential, weither by exploring or deconstructing concepts of the Genesis games or by making something new entirely, Sonic was never meant to be goofy, Sonic was meant to be cool, and the Shonen approach is just so cool, because it has the same appeal many shonen anime do. specially older ones like Dragon Ball, YuYu Hakusho or InuYasha. hell Sonic had it since Sonic CD

even after Shadow was brought back the concepts were still interesting, i don't mind the aliens in Sonic since they were interesting, the very concept of aliens is just so interesting, even other series like Mario, Kirby or Megaman did stuff with aliens (Megaman with Megaman 8, Strategy and the Starforce series, Kirby with Return to Dreamland and Kirby 64, Mario with M&L Partners in Time, and to a lesser extent, SMRPG, Paper Mario 64, Bowser's Inside Story and the Galaxy games)

 

[MvCSpiderman]

Remember that liking a game doesn't make them good, kid. Its sad, but it's true. You could aways send a letter to Izuka demaning a Shadow the Hedgehog 2, I mean it was thanks to Sonic fans letters that he started Forces project.

In other news, I'm still wondering how can Shadow Hedgehog story can be any better than Heroes. Is it because it has guns or because Shadow finally defeats Sonic?


lmao

Poor guy can't take anyone liking games he doesn't like. Which wasn't what this thread was about.

Still waiting on that proof that 2006 outsold Heroes and Shadow. Gotta move those goal posts huh?

 

[JSoup]

This is like asking if liquified dog feces is better in a cup rather than on a plate.

 

[MvCSpiderman]

This is like asking if liquified dog feces is better in a cup rather than on a plate.

A cup would be easier to drink and less risk of some spilling in you.

 

[JSoup]

A cup would be easier to drink and less risk of some spilling in you.

But the plate allows for better presentation.

This line of discussion is going exactly how I hoped it would.

 

[Azelover]

I vote Sonic Heroes, not that it matters much at this juncture.

 

[Saber]

i Disagree with most if not everything you said there.
firstly, franchises like Kirby, Pokemon and even Mario in the RPG's can get away with being dark, so why can't Sonic? i mean, Mewtwo (atleast in the anime) is pretty much the same character as Shadow with pretty much the same backstory, (both are experiments gone wrong, both lost a loved one, both wanted to destroy humanity because of it before redeeming himself and both were depressed and somewhat traumatized by it) same with Count Bleck (who also lost a loved one and wanted to destroy existance itself because of it before redeeming himself)

Secondly, Sonic always had potential for these kind of plots, he had a anime-esque sharp design even since the classic days, the lore and vague storytelling in the genesis games, also proved that, i think stuff like making a bigger deal out of Knuckles' Past and the new direction and plot structure was a GOOD thing as it was making Sonic's universe reach it's fullest narrative potential, weither by exploring or deconstructing concepts of the Genesis games or by making something new entirely, Sonic was never meant to be goofy, Sonic was meant to be cool, and the Shonen approach is just so cool, because it has the same appeal many shonen anime do. specially older ones like Dragon Ball, YuYu Hakusho or InuYasha. hell Sonic had it since Sonic CD

even after Shadow was brought back the concepts were still interesting, i don't mind the aliens in Sonic since they were interesting, the very concept of aliens is just so interesting, even other series like Mario, Kirby or Megaman did stuff with aliens (Megaman with Megaman 8, Strategy and the Starforce series, Kirby with Return to Dreamland and Kirby 64, Mario with M&L Partners in Time, and to a lesser extent, SMRPG, Paper Mario 64, Bowser's Inside Story and the Galaxy games)

You bring a good point. Though Pokemon was aways that way, since Red and Blue had those pokedex entries and Lavender. Also Pokemon were aways more tamer in that regard, thanks to a better writer and designs that doesn't simply show a pokemon being killed in front of you.
I wouldn't compare to Shonen Jump since the magazine was made for teenagers. Creators of Yuyu Hakusho and specially Inuyasha already said they target teenagers and young adults(after she ended Urusei Yatsura, she decide to make a more action manga for male teenagers).

Sonic CD is a specific case of a good aproach. It has dark elements sure, but those doesn't have deep meaning and are meant to be explicit through the design of stages and art. Theres no "backstory" to explain those things and most of stages were for the player interpretation.

As for the aliens is not that aliens is a bad concept. Team Babylon for instance were dencendants of aliens, but again theres no deep meaning on them. Shadow was different because he was created by a human and an alien, something not explained on his debut. The whole pretention of ultimate life form was more of a cover to say he is not a hedgehog(like implicing that hedgehogs are ultimate creatures).

 

[SteelCurtain 59]

I somewhat irrationally liked Sonic Heroes a lot, and unironically the main theme is my favorite Sonic song, I remember playing like an hour of Shadow the Hedgehog and not liking it at all, but even if it gets better later I can't imagine I would ever prefer it to Heroes

 

[mcjmetroid]

You really need to play better games OP for example most other games..

This thread is about Shadow and Heroes, two 3D games.

Also 3D models don't mean 3D, Colors Is 2.5D which is still a 2D game.

Hold on minute I thought you were the Sonic 3D " expert" giving me shit in the other thread because I didn't play every single 3D sonic game and therefore don't have an opinion on them.

Have you not played Sonic Colours because it most definitely is a 3D platformer...even I've played that one.

So either you can't tell the difference between 2D and 3D or you haven't played the game and only seen gameplay videos on it.

 

[LRKD]

And thats were it lies the problem. Sonic stories were never supposed to be that dark.

I think acting as the authority of what Sonic stories are or are not supposed to be is a little ridiculous. Yuji Naka was producer on Shadow the Hedgehog if any one was authority on what Sonic stories are supposed to be, I'd imagine it was him.

Yeah I agree that maybe it's not the best example but I still say that the 2 goals aren't clear for a few reasons. When you play through the stage for the first time you are probably in the mindset that this is just a sonic game. So you run to the end without much thought to it. You will then have bad guy and Sonic swapping back and forth telling you to do 1 of 2 things. So first play through will almost mean you get the chaos emerald at the end. Next playthrough you will know that there is an alternate path and try to go for 1 side. Now here was the not clear part. so throughout the stage both the bad guy and Sonic swap back and forth with you. I'm not sure it's possible to avoid 1 or the other. So now you are trying to go for a side but you have 2 characters swapping back and forth giving you contradicting objectives. Trying to take out one or the other is kinda annoying when the counter at the top keeps changing. So you get to the end now missing both objectives and probably get the chaos emerald again not realizing you can warp back through the level. This will probably repeat a few times till you realize that you can swap paths in the menu and figure out fast travel.

In game it tells you you can change the active mission character in the pause menue. In the manual it tells you at least 3 different times, and tells you two different ways you can do it. In game, and in manual it tells you that you can use the check points as teleporters to warp throughout the stage. Sonic will state near the goal ring that there are still more aliens in the level, Maria does the same near the end of the Lost Impact. I imagine all of the characters do, but I can't confirm that. If the player fails at all of these points to learn what the game tries to teach them, it's on the player not the game imo.

Though if I recall correctly the game doesn't tell you where the remaining targets are. This is what I'm getting at here. When the replayability is because the game is fun and you go back to it just to experience it again is one thing, but when the game forces you to replay something over and over again just to figure out what to do or because the game has 10 similar endings that don't even matter in the true ending is not good design.
I know this sounds like my opinion but there are many others that feel this way about the game. I believe there is one infamous level in the game for finding the computer room and I also know there is a painfully slow level I think where you escort Maria.

I am arguing that the game shouldn't be criticized for the player failing to use the in game, and in manual hints. The argument that the objectives can be tedious or annoying however, I completely agree. Getting to the end of Lost Impact, and finding you have killed 34/35 of the Chaos Prototypes is incredibly frustrating. I'm sure some of the other levels objectives are also just as frustrating. The argument that the games endings aren't meaningful I'll completely agree with, I'll even say that the game has some really poor writing through the whole game due to the various endings and branching levels.

At the end of level 1s good path. Sonic and Shadow are talking, and then Doom's Eye flies to Shadow and tells him 'our mission is complete, and we have found the third chaos emerald.'
Sonic doesn't even bat an eye that these two seem to know each other, or that they seem to be working together, or that they have chaos emeralds. It doesn't make any sense, the first thing sonic should've said is along the lines of "hey Shadow, you know this guy?" Or hey that's one of those black creatures whos destroying the world lets get him. Or anything really.

Instead he says, 'guess that means we are heading to the next level'. Later on Doom's Eye never even seems to acknowledge you constantly going against his orders, and slaughtering his soldiers, or killing his bulls.... it's just like wtf, all the characters seem to be hard to believe when they react so little to what's going on, and the players actions as Shadow... The game should've had less branching paths, and a more linear and focused story. I think they could've done fine with a few different story paths, a good, neutral, and dark. And then maybe even one or two more story paths. But anything more then 3-5 and it's just going to suffer way too much from it. They tried something ambitious with the story, and they failed.

 

[LRKD]

The part where it doesn't have a sequel lmao

Sonic 06 sold more than 800k in the first six months, so I'm not sure where do you came with that numbers.

Sonic Heroes over 3 mill
Shadow over 2 mill
Sonic 2006 700k.

I don't see either of you actually posting evidence for your claims on the sales numbers. But Sonic 06 did get a Platinum Hits release, so on Xbox 360 at least it was considered to have good sales. PowerPoint Presentation (segasammy.co.jp) On Page 15 you can see Sonic '06's sales numbers. By March of 2007 it has sold 870,000 copies between Europe and America. Saber is definitely right on it selling more then 800k in it's first 6 months. I don't think Sega has ever reported on it's sales again since then, so we will never know how much more then that it has sold. I'd say it's likely over a million, but I'd guess quite likely never hit 2 mill in its lifetime.

Sonic Heroes, you can see on that same page as Sonic 06s Sales, it had sold in America from March 06 to March 07, 420,00 copies.
Here, from Launch-March04, 404973-01-16 (segasammy.co.jp) on Page 15. It sold 1.42 million copies world wide.
Here, from March 04-March 05. .......... (segasammy.co.jp) on Page 49. It sold 1.57 million world wide.
So we have seen Sonic Heroes sold at least 3,410,000 copies from it's launch up to March 2007, after which Sega had stopped reporting any sales numbers for the title. So MvCSpider is definitely right on Sonic Heroes selling over 3 million.

Where Saber gets the idea Sonic 06 has sold more then Heroes or Shadow idk, I'd love to see some sources on that one. Like i said, It quite likely never sold more then 2 million, got high release sales off of trailer hype, and then plummeted due to negative reception, word of mouth, and reviews. I could be wrong, but I see no evidence to negate my theory.

I personally, however don't think arguing games that have sequels, or don't have sequels is a good argument. Plenty of good games never got sequels, plenty of bad games get multiple sequels. The same thing applies to sales, good games can sell poorly, bad games can sell well. I think pointing at sales data doesn't do much for arguing how good a game is, or is not. However, I do think it is important when you bring sales numbers to a conversation you are using sources for them, and showing them off. You shouldn't just parrot what you heard online, you should check and validate those numbers for yourself before using them.


Sonic 06 is a unfinished game that had terrible development start to finish. They split the development team part way through, the director left development to work on other Sonic games. They rushed it for the ps3 release and thought of a wii port for too long. Yuji Naka left Sega during development, and even took some of the 06 staff with him. IT was terrible development start to finish. I think 06 had some really good ideas, and honestly on paper, a better direction then most of the 3D games before it. But it is without a doubt a unfinished terrible release, and to compare it to other games is silly.

 

[Saber]

I don't see either of you actually posting evidence for your claims on the sales numbers. But Sonic 06 did get a Platinum Hits release, so on Xbox 360 at least it was considered to have good sales. PowerPoint Presentation (segasammy.co.jp) On Page 15 you can see Sonic '06's sales numbers. By March of 2007 it has sold 870,000 copies between Europe and America. Saber is definitely right on it selling more then 800k in it's first 6 months. I don't think Sega has ever reported on it's sales again since then, so we will never know how much more then that it has sold. I'd say it's likely over a million, but I'd guess quite likely never hit 2 mill in its lifetime.

Sonic Heroes, you can see on that same page as Sonic 06s Sales, it had sold in America from March 06 to March 07, 420,00 copies.
Here, from Launch-March04, 404973-01-16 (segasammy.co.jp) on Page 15. It sold 1.42 million copies world wide.
Here, from March 04-March 05. .......... (segasammy.co.jp) on Page 49. It sold 1.57 million world wide.
So we have seen Sonic Heroes sold at least 3,410,000 copies from it's launch up to March 2007, after which Sega had stopped reporting any sales numbers for the title. So MvCSpider is definitely right on Sonic Heroes selling over 3 million.

Where Saber gets the idea Sonic 06 has sold more then Heroes or Shadow idk, I'd love to see some sources on that one. Like i said, It quite likely never sold more then 2 million, got high release sales off of trailer hype, and then plummeted due to negative reception, word of mouth, and reviews. I could be wrong, but I see no evidence to negate my theory.

I personally, however don't think arguing games that have sequels, or don't have sequels is a good argument. Plenty of good games never got sequels, plenty of bad games get multiple sequels. The same thing applies to sales, good games can sell poorly, bad games can sell well. I think pointing at sales data doesn't do much for arguing how good a game is, or is not. However, I do think it is important when you bring sales numbers to a conversation you are using sources for them, and showing them off. You shouldn't just parrot what you heard online, you should check and validate those numbers for yourself before using them.


Sonic 06 is a unfinished game that had terrible development start to finish. They split the development team part way through, the director left development to work on other Sonic games. They rushed it for the ps3 release and thought of a wii port for too long. Yuji Naka left Sega during development, and even took some of the 06 staff with him. IT was terrible development start to finish. I think 06 had some really good ideas, and honestly on paper, a better direction then most of the 3D games before it. But it is without a doubt a unfinished terrible release, and to compare it to other games is silly.

Not only that, Sega also created a new Sonic games policy at the time, by taking away from store Sonic games they considered "mediocre"(probably a response to 06), which affected drastically it's sales. It's also worth notice that Sonic Heroes was sold on 4 different plataforms(Xbox, PS2, GC and PC), while Sonic 06 was sold only 2(Xbox360 and PS3).

But the point being made here is that Sonic 06 is a broken mess of game, a terrible example of what not to do with Sonic and still sold very well. Does that means the game is great? OP simply put let his fanboyism blind him, as we can see sales does not equal to sucess. Otherwise we would 100% get a Sonic Heroes sequel or at least a spiritual sucessor like Colors, Generations and Forces are from Unleashed.

 

[-pepodmc]

Shadow is absolutely better, but they are both terrible.

Sonic Unleashed ps2/wii version (even downgraded as they were) was a lot better game than heroes and shadow the hedgeoh

 

[MvCSpiderman]

Necause I didn't play every single 3D sonic game and therefore don't have an opinion on them.

You have an active imagination.

That was about you lying about most 3D Sonic games having the boost.

Have you not played Sonic Colours because it most definitely is a 3D platformer...even I've played that one.

I'm not the only one that noticed Colors is 90% 2D with a chunk of 3D sections being drifts with no platforming sure, 3D platforming is somewhere in the game, but don't fool yourself.

It will always be officially with Sega though regardless.

 

[MvCSpiderman]

Not only that, Sega also created a new Sonic games policy at the time, by taking away from store Sonic games they considered "mediocre"(probably a response to 06), which affected drastically it's sales. It's also worth notice that Sonic Heroes was sold on 4 different plataforms(Xbox, PS2, GC and PC), while Sonic 06 was sold only 2(Xbox360 and PS3).

But the point being made here is that Sonic 06 is a broken mess of game, a terrible example of what not to do with Sonic and still sold very well. Does that means the game is great? OP simply put let his fanboyism blind him, as we can see sales does not equal to sucess. Otherwise we would 100% get a Sonic Heroes sequel or at least a spiritual sucessor like Colors, Generations and Forces are from Unleashed.

Sonic Heroes being sold on 4 platforms isn't very relevant when most of the sales were split across 2 consoles, and it's just goal post moving anyway.

Also for a flagship major HD next generation game 2006 did not sell very well. Shadow sold very well.

There's also no fanboyism you're just wrong, as the user you quoted just proved. You constantly put off your mental problems on others. Unless you're a fanboy of Sonic 2006, in that case you made need to be sent to the ER.

 

[OmegaSpirit32X]

You bring a good point. Though Pokemon was aways that way, since Red and Blue had those pokedex entries and Lavender. Also Pokemon were aways more tamer in that regard, thanks to a better writer and designs that doesn't simply show a pokemon being killed in front of you.
I wouldn't compare to Shonen Jump since the magazine was made for teenagers. Creators of Yuyu Hakusho and specially Inuyasha already said they target teenagers and young adults(after she ended Urusei Yatsura, she decide to make a more action manga for male teenagers).

Sonic CD is a specific case of a good aproach. It has dark elements sure, but those doesn't have deep meaning and are meant to be explicit through the design of stages and art. Theres no "backstory" to explain those things and most of stages were for the player interpretation.

As for the aliens is not that aliens is a bad concept. Team Babylon for instance were dencendants of aliens, but again theres no deep meaning on them. Shadow was different because he was created by a human and an alien, something not explained on his debut. The whole pretention of ultimate life form was more of a cover to say he is not a hedgehog(like impliyng that hedgehogs are ultimate creatures).

that's true, but let's rememeber SEGA was also aiming to that very same audience of older teenagers with their X-TREEEM marketing during the 90's, even Sonic wich was kid-friendly and had some cuteness to him was also pretty edgy if you compared him to Mario, even now, if you take away Sonic and the odd mascot game like Puyo (wich is funnily enough a spinoff of another "edgy" series aimed at older teens, Madou Monogatari) or Monkey Ball, you get mainly games aimed at teenagers and adults like Golden Axe, Altered Beast, Streets of Rage, Shenmue, Space Channel 5 (aka Y2K aesthetic: the videogame), Jet Set Radio, Yakuza they also have Persona/Shin MegaTen in their hands

Yuji Naka himself said that a good chunk of Sonic's design was inspired by the edgyness of Shonen Manga mixed with the easy-to-draw rubberhose designs, it was a mix between demographics changing with cartoon network now airing said anime on their Toonami Block, and stuff like Skate culture and grundge becoming popular, and videogames becoming more cinematic (with stuff like Metal Gear, Final Fantasy 7 or SEGA's own Shenmue) and the cancelled Sonic RPG we got a glimpse of in Sonic Jam being reporpoused into the next mainline platformer but the team willingly keeping the RPG elements, considering Naka wanted to go to a more shonen approach to Sonic to appeal to grow up with their audience.

to be honest with you, i feel the Black Arms being aliens was bassicly an excuse to both qucikly patch out a plot hole from SA2 (what was the pissing-i mean eclipse canon for?) and to still have some rule of cool worthy of the big big bad like in the previous games, same reason Sonic fights Kaijus at the end of every game, and i think the game was reffering to Sonic himself specificly, considering Shadow even tells it to Sonic ("you're the true ultimate lifeform") i know it's just a theory and that most likely was just a gag from the team, but there's a theory going arround that Shadow was based off the Super Sonic mural at the end of Sonic & Knuckles in Hidden Palace, and it makes too much sense for it not to be true.

 

[IKSTUGA]

No. Shadow was terrible, Heroes was at least half-decent.

 

[april6e]

I'm the sort of casual Sonic fan that hardcore fans hate. My ranking of the series:

Sonic and Knuckles
Sonic Adventure 2
Sonic Mania
Sonic Heroes
Dr. Robonik's Mean Bean Machine

The rest of the series can die in a fire for all I care. It's been so long since they've released a great Sonic game that it's become an ongoing meme on how this franchise somehow still exists when so many better series died undeserved deaths. Megaman and Sonic fans both impress me with their tenacity for continue to line up to get disappointed over and over again.

 

[deriks]

Shadow wasn't meant to be a Sonic game, it's a spinoff with another character, same could be said for the different gameplay styles of the Adventure games. it's like calling Wario Land a Mario game.

Wario Land is way more Mario than Shadow is to Sonic

 

[OmegaSpirit32X]

Wario Land is way more Mario than Shadow is to Sonic

idk to me Shadow was bassicly a Sonic game but with guns and alternate paths.
while Wario Land is more of it's own thing.

 

[teezzy]

Shadow is dope

Screw the haters