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We need more talent>diversity in the gaming industry.

levyjl1988

Member
Jan 31, 2010
1,857
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Canada, Toronto
Seems like all the time we are having a whole slew of problems.
People should be hired for their talent and not because they are the minority gender or whatever.

Talent > Diversity

Diversity = a whole diversity of problems bound to happen if they aren't competent in their jobs.
When you compare games of the old when it was made out of passion and creativity, things worked.
Now people are exploiting games to push their political agenda and microtransactions.
People are being hired because they satisfy a checklist system and not because they adequately equipped for the job leading to mismanagement, bad reception, delays and overall quality.
Games are being outsourced cheaply and not making the quality as excellent.
SJW are modelling woman ugly and unattractive on purpose so they can ruin the image of the game eg) Ryder in Mass Effect Andromeda and Black Widow for Avengers until the backlash came from fan feedback.

/rant
 
Jul 30, 2020
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You would think a company would prioritize talent and character, not your skin, gender, sexuality when hiring to make something great. Unfortunately the country has gone insane and hires based on your skin color or lgbt etc. It sucks, but prepared for this to continue for some time unfortunately.
 

Bodomism

Banned
Jun 1, 2020
1,824
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Diversity


Talent
 

wordslaughter

Banned
Apr 17, 2019
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Diversity will NOT result in better games. It literally has nothing to do with it and can potentially make games WORSE.

When hiring game developers you should ONLY be looking at how talented/experienced they are. And how "diverse" that group of people wind up will just be whatever it happens to be. If you hired only the most talented and it just ended up that there's not a single white male, I'm fine with that.

But if you're turning down more talented people because you want to reach "diversity quotas" then all that will do is negatively affect your game.

The race, gender and sexual orientation of game developers is completely irrelevant to me. BUT the POLITICS of certain people do matter to me. And if you're just going to use your game as a vehicle to cram your own politics down my throat, you'll never get any money from me.

It should be simple - Hire the most talented people and create the best game you can to entertain your fans - NOT force feed your politics.
 

CitizenX

Banned
Jul 15, 2020
751
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Diversity will NOT result in better games. It literally has nothing to do with it and can potentially make games WORSE.

When hiring game developers you should ONLY be looking at how talented/experienced they are. And how "diverse" that group of people wind up will just be whatever it happens to be. If you hired only the most talented and it just ended up that there's not a single white male, I'm fine with that.

But if you're turning down more talented people because you want to reach "diversity quotas" then all that will do is negatively affect your game.

The race, gender and sexual orientation of game developers is completely irrelevant to me. BUT the POLITICS of certain people do matter to me. And if you're just going to use your game as a vehicle to cram your own politics down my throat, you'll never get any money from me.

It should be simple - Hire the most talented people and create the best game you can to entertain your fans - NOT force feed your politics.

Its also the first or second sentence when applying for a job becasue there is this little thing called the Law, but that doesnt mean anything to the left. I updated the new law, reminder its not racist in any way.

We are an Equal Opportunity Employer. All qualified applicants will be considered for employment regardless of age, national origin, race, color, disability, religious beliefs, or sexual orientation. However if you are not a US citizen, white and not normal you will take precedents before all others.
 
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RoboEight

Member
Jun 25, 2019
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I don't get why people are so butt hurt over stuff like Halo and somehow because the game has women working on the team all the sudden that's why the game shaped up the way it has. There are plenty of very talented female artists/programmers/composers working in the industry and tbh I've been seeing this over and over lately and it's super disingenuous to anyone working in the industry which is already tough enough to get into. I've worked on a few projects and have worked with plenty of talented female artists and they're just as talented and deserving to be working in the industry as anyone else and tbh the image above is pretty shameful to post.
 

Darkmakaimura

Member
Dec 12, 2008
15,824
7,310
1,755
I'd rather have people hired for the skin color, what's between their legs and their preferred pronouns over competence.

It's 2020 Current Year dude. Get with it and deal with shitty products and services! We got to make sure xe/xir fat person of color is represented, you stinking Trumpkin Nazi!
 

ShadowLag

Member
Jun 4, 2013
567
995
735
USA
I don't get why people are so butt hurt over stuff like Halo and somehow because the game has women working on the team all the sudden that's why the game shaped up the way it has. There are plenty of very talented female artists/programmers/composers working in the industry and tbh I've been seeing this over and over lately and it's super disingenuous to anyone working in the industry which is already tough enough to get into. I've worked on a few projects and have worked with plenty of talented female artists and they're just as talented and deserving to be working in the industry as anyone else and tbh the image above is pretty shameful to post.

Literally no one is butt hurt that any game has women working on it, or even predominantly women. They're butt hurt because the studio(s) involved deliberately went out of their way to hire ONLY women/minorities/etc. as some sort of big statement, literally turning down others who might actually be super incredibly qualified for the job with dreams of one day working on Game Franchise(TM), but are turned down SIMPLY because they don't fit into the "we must hire ONLY WOMEN/MINORITIES" hiring group. It's the opposite of diversity.

As you said, there are TONS of incredibly talented women and minorities that shape most of the games we play today, from indie games to AAAA games, but they aren't yelling from the top of the mountains about how diverse they are, they're just hiring the right people and making their games.
 
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idrago01

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Jul 5, 2020
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women have always been in the gaming industry since the 70’s and 80’s, the difference was they got their on merit and outperforming their male colleagues, what we have now is just tribalism, people being hired for beliefs rather than talent and has ironically resulted in an absence of diversity of thought in the gaming industry
 

CamHostage

Member
Sep 30, 2004
7,257
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I don't get why people are so butt hurt over stuff like Halo and somehow because the game has women working on the team all the sudden that's why the game shaped up the way it has.

I know about couple people who work or recently worked for 343i, and they're all men, and it's their game that's fucked, so...

Literally no one is butt hurt that any game has women working on it, or even predominantly women. They're butt hurt because the studio(s) involved deliberately went out of their way to hire ONLY women/minorities/etc. as some sort of big statement, literally turning down others who might actually be super incredibly qualified for the job with dreams of one day working on Game Franchise(TM), but are turned down SIMPLY because they don't fit into the "we must hire ONLY WOMEN/MINORITIES" hiring group. It's the opposite of diversity.

I think you're literally wrong that literally no one is butt hurt about the company having a percentage of women on the staff, but...

Either way, that's not really how "diversity hiring" works, that you just set a quota and throw away all the resumes of white dudes if you're over the white line and just pick the one that extends your rainbow the farthest. (That said, quotas did exist in the "Affirmative Action" period and there are still some industries that check its numbers when they're heavily lopsided.) If you've ever been in a hiring cycle at a big company, you'd see it's more about extending your invite pool and looking at extenuating values that could be brought to the team in all qualified applicants verifying in conversation with HR that you've done due diligence with the range of applicants. I mean, I get that listening to the 60 Minutes interview and so many other clips on one subject might make it sound like Bonnie Ross is just walking around the office beating a Diversity Drum all day long, but it you read up on it, it seems her action is much more around supporting educational programs for women and reaching out to programs which are fostering certain talent pools. If somebody who has managed a team at 343 or a place like it and says differently about the way things went for them, then their experiences would be interesting to hear, but the reality of being in an office that's concerned about diversity is way different than the easy myth that white dudes are being made redundant in the workplace.

...there are TONS of incredibly talented women and minorities that shape most of the games we play today, from indie games to AAAA games, but they aren't yelling from the top of the mountains about how diverse they are...

They're also (just going by the math of the size of the franchise) not working on one of the biggest names in videogames at one of the lead companies in the industry, at a place on the top of the mountain where they could be seen for miles as having made it so high where few rarely tread.

(Also, is an occasional blog post or one TV interview really "yelling from the top of the mountains"? The only reason I know about any of this International Women's Day or PRIDE posts from game companies isn't from knowing a few people in the industry, it's from the GAF posts rooting the blogs or tweets out to rail against them.)
 
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Northeastmonk

Gold Member
Mar 18, 2013
14,385
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I think it’s a large medium. If you look back on the early days of video games- each once was a risk or it was something that brought video games into pop culture. Developers knew when they had a hit on their hands because the game would sell out everywhere. Now a days it’s like a continuous cycle. One genre will be like the rest or they’ll do it better. The biggest AAA game is not actually sold out at GameStop and it’s half the price in 30 days. I love modern video games.

I just think it’s flourishing as a medium instead of being something to experience for the first time. Now a days the critiques have played similar games and they only have to come up with their own criticism based on what they already know.
 
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I know about four people who work or recently worked for 343i, and they're all men, and it's their game that's fucked, so...



I think you're literally wrong that literally no one is butt hurt about the company having a percentage of women on the staff, but...

Either way, that's not really how "diversity hiring" works, that you just set a quota and throw away all the resumes of white dudes if you're over the white line and just pick the one that extends your rainbow the farthest. (That said, quotas did exist in the "Affirmative Action" period and there are still some industries that check its numbers when they're heavily lopsided.) If you've ever been in a hiring cycle at a big company, you'd see it's more about extending your invite pool and looking at extenuating values that could be brought to the team in all qualified applicants verifying in conversation with HR that you've done due diligence with the range of applicants. I mean, I get that listening to the 60 Minutes interview and so many other clips on one subject might make it sound like Bonnie Ross is just walking around the office beating a Diversity Drum all day long, but it you read up on it, it seems her action is much more around supporting educational programs for women and reaching out to programs which are fostering certain talent pools. If somebody who has managed a team at 343 or a place like it and says differently about the way things went for them, then their experiences would be interesting to hear, but the reality of being in an office that's concerned about diversity is way different than the easy myth that white dudes are being made redundant in the workplace.

You should consider that your experience is limited. Just because you have worked at a “big company” does not mean other people are lying or misinterpreting their own experience. I can guarantee that such set-asides are very real.
 
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Grinchy

Banned
Aug 3, 2010
27,705
19,114
1,305
a cave outside of Whoville.
I think we should really test this idea that diversity is a strength. Remove the discrimination laws that currently prevent companies from hiring based on merit and have forced them into a statistical quotas game.

If it's true that diversity is a necessity for business to thrive, then any company that chose to hire only white men would fail. Any company that hired a rainbow workforce would succeed. You don't even need the law if it's true that diversity is more important than skill or talent because the companies that didn't hire that way would naturally die off.
 

NoMoChokeSJ

Banned
Jun 3, 2014
1,575
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if diversity is really a strength why are all militaries based on uniformity
That has to be one of the dumbest false equivalences I've ever read. Thank you for the dumbest comment on the internet today... Quite an accomplishment. The military is probably one of the most diverse organizations on the globe.
 
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Thickandblack

Banned
Mar 23, 2018
957
2,183
480
Seems like all the time we are having a whole slew of problems.
People should be hired for their talent and not because they are the minority gender or whatever.

Talent > Diversity

Diversity = a whole diversity of problems bound to happen if they aren't competent in their jobs.
When you compare games of the old when it was made out of passion and creativity, things worked.
Now people are exploiting games to push their political agenda and microtransactions.
People are being hired because they satisfy a checklist system and not because they adequately equipped for the job leading to mismanagement, bad reception, delays and overall quality.
Games are being outsourced cheaply and not making the quality as excellent.
SJW are modelling woman ugly and unattractive on purpose so they can ruin the image of the game eg) Ryder in Mass Effect Andromeda and Black Widow for Avengers until the backlash came from fan feedback.

/rant
This is exactly what happened with Bioware in Edmonton. They hired absolute trash heap SJW's with no experience and they now are on the cusp of going out of business if there next game is not a hit.
 

CamHostage

Member
Sep 30, 2004
7,257
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1,660
You should consider that your experience is limited. Just because you have worked at a “big company” does not mean other people are lying or misinterpreting their own experience. I can guarantee that such set-asides are very real.

Well, I did consider it. You even quoted me, "If somebody who has managed a team at 343 or a place like it and says differently about the way things went for them, then their experiences would be interesting to hear..."

So, it would help if you shared your experience in staffing that has led you to guarantee set-asides. Because right now, I'm actually the only person on this thread who's talked about first-hand experience hiring in the current job market, so my experience may be limited, but it's the only real "experience" here so far. I'm not really interested in representing myself as the "expert" on the topic, but so many posts here are just hearsay and frankly bullshit false equivalencies about Halo Infinite being a fuck-up because Bonnie Ross went on TV talking about valuing diversity (there's about 55 women in that International Women's Day picture that's been referred to here; the company has something like 500 employees,) and I figured some actual insight from somebody who has hired people and also happens to know some 343i staffers might be worth including in the conversation. I'm not saying I'm right or that unfair shit doesn't happen, but I've heard all the attacks and jokes on diversity consideration in the work place, and in my experience, they're all pretty far from the truth.

They're even pretty far from the truth of their own argument. Like I said, there's been a lot made over Bonnie Ross's statements and that blog post about 343i (it's not clear what OP LeviJ1988 is referring to when starting the thread, "People should be hired for their talent and not because they are the minority gender or whatever," but this given the timing and also how quickly replies jumped to the Halo Infinite debacle, it seems like that's top of mind for clicks onto this thread...), but the image of a company run by somebody who says "diversity attracts diversity" and the reality of the staff make-up doesn't line up.

International Women's Day pic


General Staff pic


I'm not sure how you can look at the second picture and still think of it as a company flying a No White Dudes Allowed flag. It's a "diverse" office, but it's also a whole lot of white guys sharing the blame with all the women being called out on this thread as being not-talent.
 
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tsumake

Member
Dec 3, 2019
1,090
1,004
460
Literally no one is butt hurt that any game has women working on it, or even predominantly women. They're butt hurt because the studio(s) involved deliberately went out of their way to hire ONLY women/minorities/etc. as some sort of big statement, literally turning down others who might actually be super incredibly qualified for the job with dreams of one day working on Game Franchise(TM), but are turned down SIMPLY because they don't fit into the "we must hire ONLY WOMEN/MINORITIES" hiring group. It's the opposite of diversity.

As you said, there are TONS of incredibly talented women and minorities that shape most of the games we play today, from indie games to AAAA games, but they aren't yelling from the top of the mountains about how diverse they are, they're just hiring the right people and making their games.

Has anyone noticed that the truly talented women in the industry never seem to get the recognition they deserve?

It’s almost as if people are jealous of their talent....
 
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Well, I did consider it. You even quoted me, "If somebody who has managed a team at 343 or a place like it and says differently about the way things went for them, then their experiences would be interesting to hear..."

So, it would help if you shared your experience in staffing that has led you to guarantee set-asides. Because right now, I'm actually the only person on this thread who's talked about first-hand experience hiring in the current job market, so my experience may be limited, but it's the only real "experience" here so far. I'm not really interested in representing myself as the "expert" on the topic, but so many posts here are just hearsay and frankly bullshit false equivalencies about Halo Infinite being a fuck-up because Bonnie Ross went on TV talking about valuing diversity (there's about 55 women in that International Women's Day picture that's been referred to here; the company has something like 500 employees,) and I figured some actual insight from somebody who has hired people and also happens to know some 343i staffers might be worth including in the conversation. I'm not saying I'm right or that unfair shit doesn't happen, but I've heard all the attacks and jokes on diversity consideration in the work place, and in my experience, they're all pretty far from the truth.

i wasn’t making this difficult. When I said that set-asides are real...it’s because I’ve seen it firsthand. Hiring, promotions, etc. I’m not sure how you think only your experience is “real.” That’s some extreme narcissism.

Your experience is not comprehensive of the world.
 

Michael Hawk

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Jul 27, 2020
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Measurably incompetent people have always, are, and will always be in the workplace. Millions of people get jobs based on either a roided up resume, a friend/family member hookup, their looks and or the size of their muscles/ass/tits, their sense of humor, the color of their skin, their religious beliefs, their politics, the list goes on and on.

The gaming industry, for as 'tech-driven' as it is, is no exception. People are hired because they 'make sense' to be hired and not because they have a measurable ability to get technological shit done correctly.

I have zero data that indicates that the microtransactioning of games is related to SJW. However, there's more than enough examples of 'Twitter outrage' that has led to games and character designs being altered so as to avoid backlash from women. There's been a notable reduction in the titty size(s) and jiggle physics of female protagonists and characters. Obviously, if you go outside then you know there are large breasted women jigglying around everywhere, so games only featuring women with A and B cups is, ironically, leading to an unintended lack of representation of women with larger cup sizes. The same is applicable to female character outfits. There's more 'covering up' and more attire that is deliberately designed to hide the 'naughty bits'. But again, if you logout of Twitter and go outside on a daily basis, you would more than likely encounter no less than a dozen women (per week) who deliberately dress in more revealing outfits.

So let me tie all of this ^ mess back to the topic at hand. There's nothing wrong with hiring a chick or an asian etc. to work on a game. There absolutely is something wrong if that same woman/minority then rallies to make decisions on a game to satisfy the (often misguided) diversity desires of Twitter and not what makes sense for the game. If some jackass in New Hampshire tweets about wanting to see Lara Croft go tomb raiding in a full tuxedo and then some chick at Eidos casually starts a thread on Twitter casually bullshitting that women at Eidos want to see a more covered up Lara, then quite frankly, that woman was a bad hire.

It sucks that stuff like fat Drake can't be done anymore due to the guaranteed tweetrage that would follow. So we're in a weird spot where knights in shining ascii have more power than ever before. However, as long as development teams and gaming companies don't go out of their way to hire measurably incompetent and deliberately shit-stirring for retweets (and likes) folk, then you don't have too much to worry about.
 

CamHostage

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Sep 30, 2004
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i wasn’t making this difficult. When I said that set-asides are real...it’s because I’ve seen it firsthand. Hiring, promotions, etc. I’m not sure how you think only your experience is “real.” That’s some extreme narcissism.

Your experience is not comprehensive of the world.

Okay, then talk up your experiences.

I never said my experiences were the only ones that were "real", what I said was that I was the only one so far who's spoken about personally doing the job of filling a role in an office. And in my experience (which has utilized state and federal employment statutes as well as widely-utilized training programs... and frankly an impacted assful of corporate videos,) the reality of putting a program in motion doesn't match up with the easy talking points against such a program. If you disagree, add your story so that this thread can be more "comprehensive of the world". You jumped up my butt that my experience was not representative, so then tell your history in hiring, promotions, etc so that we can have a conversation. Because honestly, if your experience in hiring has been a series of set-asides for talented white guys and an elevation of unqualified individuals to meet a defined quota (which is different from a company hiring on people that they "like working with", and I've been in those places too where the staff seems awful familiar to the boss...), if that's you're experience and you as a hiring manager have had no say over who you hire, I'm kind of worried you're working in a shithole.
 
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What you look like and who you bang is a bad metric for judging an individuals ability to perform their job at a high level. It's not sustainable. It's going to take some time for their assets and credit lines to bleed out but a company that doesn't hire the best of the best to build their products and services won't be able to compete with the companies who hire based on merit. This is just my opinion. Halo Infinite has problems because that entire studio is devoid of talent.
 
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Not just in gaming though. Capitalism is routed in a hierarchy of competence. Comptent people need to be hired for the skills they are competent in regardless of sex, race, age, religious affiliation or any other defining characteristic. Equality of opportunity =! Equality of outcome. Sometimes that leads to diversity sometimes it dosen't and thats fine, get gud.
 
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Claus Grimhildyr

Vincit qui se vincit
Jan 30, 2018
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I don't get why people are so butt hurt over stuff like Halo and somehow because the game has women working on the team all the sudden that's why the game shaped up the way it has. There are plenty of very talented female artists/programmers/composers working in the industry and tbh I've been seeing this over and over lately and it's super disingenuous to anyone working in the industry which is already tough enough to get into. I've worked on a few projects and have worked with plenty of talented female artists and they're just as talented and deserving to be working in the industry as anyone else and tbh the image above is pretty shameful to post.

Imagine you worked your entire life to become a talented game dev. You put out a great portfolio to showcase what you can do and what you can bring to a team. You apply to a great position at a great studio working on one of the most iconic franchises in the gaming sphere.

Now imagine that someone who didn't work nearly as hard as you, didn't have the portfolio you had, didn't have the skill you had also had applied. Imagine that that person was hired over you because they had a vagina/"lady dick" and the studio wanted to "show how progressive" they are.

That is what is currently happening with this affirmative action malarkey.
 
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Okay, then talk up your experiences.

I never said my experiences were the only ones that were "real", what I said was that I was the only one so far who's spoken about personally doing the job of filling a role in an office. And in my experience (which has utilized state and federal employment statutes as well as widely-utilized training programs... and frankly an impacted assful of corporate videos,) the reality of putting a program in motion doesn't match up with the easy talking points against such a program. You jumped up my butt that my experience was not representative, so then tell your history in hiring, promotions, etc so that we can have a conversation. I'm not going to say that my experience is "comprehensive of the world", but you're reading the same posts I am and I'd be surprised if you disagreed that the responses are largely reactionary or of personal opinion
You started out by telling someone how “diversity hiring” actually works. Rather condescending. As if you’re the final word...

You actually did use the word “real.” You’ve been editing your posts rather furiously so I’m not going back to look for it.

I didn’t jump on your butt. I pointed out that other people have different experiences that you have discounted or accused people of lying. Again...condescending...

I’ve already told you that I’ve been involved in quota systems in hiring and promotions. Sometimes those quotas are expressed as goals. Diversity is often a metric used for job performance of hiring managers—measured largely by correct hiring. Ever had to get a hiring decision approved by a diversity committee? Job requirements are changed to hire particular people. Some jobs are informally labeled as “black jobs” or ”female jobs,“ particularly when of that group is being replaced. Not sure what you want beyond that.

You haven’t presented any evidence yet you’re asking others for their history.
 
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