What are your thoughts on the anti-war narrative in japanese fiction?

[Mr. RHC]

This has become quite a noteable theme since World War II and to me it seems Japan writers focus on why war is bad and how to de-escalate things after a fallout. Maybe we can compare it to some "winning" forces like in the United States or the UK, we would find quite different results, I'm sure. I also think writers in Japan are very effective about it and the US to a lesser degree. Not sure about european writers, imo the fictional anti-war narrative is yet to come .

I wonder if it is like that because "pacifism" has been rooted in Japan's constitution, regarding the latest developments.
Naturally, a country with destroyed cities and a bad economy would look back on its war history with a different mindset.

I would argue the deformed Godzilla (1954) is the exact opposite of the shining victor Captain America (1941).

< Military look, national pride, moral instance

< monster, no identification, chaotic instance

Some prominent and recent example for anti-war narrative would be the Metal Gear (1987) Hideo Kojima series or for example the movie The Wind Rises(2013) by Hayao Miyazaki, or Steamboy(2004) Katsuhiro Otomo.
What these movies have in common is the reget of weapons of mass destructions or weapons or a war economy in general. Godzilla stems from the nuclear trauma after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Now, these things can also be found in US fiction without a doubt, but I think the States handle it differently. Forrest Gump comes to mind with a subtle anti war narrative, and of course many, many many US war dramas. Japan arguably has no history for stylized war dramas, at least after WWII. Are First Person Shooters popular in Japan? I think not. Are they popular in the rest of mainland Europe? Yes, interesting.
The stylized war fiction in Japan goes way back in time, dealing with Samurai, and other feudal lords or ninjas or the likes.
If I had to contrast the winning war narrative with the losing one it would be fatigue versus regret. In reality Otacon and fictional Jiro Horikoshi only wanted to design mechs for one of their japanese animes but everything went wrong.
Another take:

Metal Gear, destroy it or the world is doomed

Optimus Prime, Fuck Yeah

Of course it would be unfair to say that Japan is not celebrating mechs or glorifying stylized weapons. I'm not saying that.

Spoiler

I have only seen the most recent Michael Bay Transformers, so please enlighten me if Transformer is completely different.

But I think writers in Japan usually depict weapons with some sort of twist while in the US they are mostly battle machines.

Do you have more examples, how would you interpret these movies? What do you think of these techniques, which are effective?

 

[ComputerMKII]

I don't think there's much to interpret from Transformers or Metal Gear. They're not exactly War and Peace, it's just mindless entertainment.

 

[teruterubozu]

Some would argue that Japanese "monster" fiction - from Godzilla to Attack on Titan - is about Japan's right to defend themselves via any means necessary against larger outside threats like China or North Korea.

 

[Ahasverus]

You're completely right. Americans really glorify guns and violence. That's not intrinsically bad per se, but there are cultural differences present. Whether you agree with one side or another is your choice.

 

[Bravoexo]

As being the only country in history to have been dropped by two Atomic bombs in war time, can't really blame them to have this stance.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

I don't think there's much to interpret from Transformers or Metal Gear. They're not exactly War and Peace, it's just mindless entertainment.

I'd argue mindless popular entertainment is a much better indicator of cultural differences than high art.

 

[SoulPlaya]

I'd argue mindless popular entertainment is a much better indicator of cultural differences than high art.

Even in that aspect, aren't Godzilla and Metal Gear not even all that popular in Japan? Aren't they more popular in the US?

 

[rrs]

The United States homefront was unscathed more or less from WW2

Japan was firebombed, had two nuclear bombs dropped on it, and was occupied by the united states

 

[Chainsawkitten]

Even in that aspect, aren't Godzilla and Metal Gear not even all that popular in Japan? Aren't they more popular in the US?

I don't even think the original Godzilla as an individual film is very popular anywhere these days (I mean, other than as a cult classic, everyone's heard of it but I don't think most people have watched it).

 

[Mistel]

Isn't transformers Japanese with Hasbro licensing it from Takara?

 

[ElTopo]

I don't really see an anti-war narrative in most Japanese fiction. I see either Japanese nationalism or youthful rebellion more than anything else.

 

[Korigama]

Even in that aspect, aren't Godzilla and Metal Gear not even all that popular in Japan? Aren't they more popular in the US?

I doubt Godzilla is as popular in the US as Japan (especially if the two Hollywood adaptations are the only gauge). Metal Gear, though, is generally more popular in the US than in Japan, with Metal Gear Rising being an exception.

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

The United States homefront was unscathed more or less from WW2

Japan was firebombed, had two nuclear bombs dropped on it, and was occupied by the united states

Bingo.

 

[Piecake]

I don't really see an anti-war narrative in most Japanese fiction. I see either Japanese nationalism or youthful rebellion more than anything else.

Yea, I dont buy it at all. Some japanese titles have an anti-war message. Some american titles have an anti-war message. It's like some people are pacifists and some arent. Amazing.

As for the popular media after WWII, I think a better explanation is that America had a whole lot more reason to feel heroic than Japan and did not see their cities destroyed. Japan had to deal with war brought to their own nation and all of the war crimes and atrocities that they did in WWII. As for pacifism being rooted in Japanese culture, well, I really don't see how anyone can jive that with what they did in WWII or the constant wars/civil wars they fought over the years.

 

[BearFlexington]

Japanese storytellers may have a more liberal approach to the subject of war, but the government as a whole is still pushing revisionist history text books and downplaying the atrocities committed during WWII.

I feel like 60+ years isn't enough time for a one time imperialist nation to do a complete about face. Like the US in regards to race relations; I think they still have some soul-searching to do.

Just my opinion.

 

[Mr. RHC]

I compared to Japan to other states to show what I think could be an anti-war narrative. I'm actually quite interested in the techniques used by the writers, regardless of cultural impact or popularity.

I don't really see an anti-war narrative in most Japanese fiction. I see either Japanese nationalism or youthful rebellion more than anything else.

It really depends on what you have seen, but my examples are imo less about nationalism. The Wind Rises has elements of national pride, but the protagonist story is first and foremost about designing aircrafts and his ambitions. Youthful rebellion is a good point.

Some would argue that Japanese "monster" fiction - from Godzilla to Attack on Titan - is about Japan's right to defend themselves via any means necessary against larger outside threats like China or North Korea.

Guess I'm watching Attack on Titan again, but AoT is big on defending stuff, that's true.

 

[The Tofunator]

Isn't transformers Japanese with Hasbro licensing it from Takara?

Hasbro licensed toys and toy designs from Takara, the fiction to connect the toys was then created by them.

 

[Mr. RHC]

You're completely right. Americans really glorify guns and violence. That's not intrinsically bad per se, but there are cultural differences present. Whether you agree with one side or another is your choice.

I never actually said that.
This is more about fiction dealing with war, there is pacifism in the US.

 

[AuthenticM]

I don't think there's much to interpret from Transformers or Metal Gear. They're not exactly War and Peace, it's just mindless entertainment.

(rolls eyes)

 

[SixMachine]

I know that Japan obviously is against WMDs such as nuclear weapons. I have read a decent amount of manga where they make references or outright state the horrors of the nuclear bomb. When the Fallout games they had to change the Fat Man to Nuka Launcher because the Fat Man alludes to the Little Boy which was dropped on Hiroshima iirc. Metal Gear games are also pretty anti-nuclear, with the whole destroying nuclear bipedal tank and within the cutscenes themselves it is pretty much anti-war.

Another example will be Gundam. Usually all of them have an anti-war message except Build Fighters and G Gundam since those are obviously the most awesome ones ever and prove punching people never gets old. In Seed nuclear weapons are disallowed and the technology they have prevents nuclear reactions from happening, so they made mobile suits to fight. Though they eventually do use nukes but it's pretty much an endgame bad guy scenario by then.

 

[Mr. RHC]

I know that Japan obviously is against WMDs such as nuclear weapons. I have read a decent amount of manga where they make references or outright state the horrors of the nuclear bomb. When the Fallout games they had to change the Fat Man to Nuka Launcher because the Fat Man alludes to the Little Boy which was dropped on Hiroshima iirc. Metal Gear games are also pretty anti-nuclear, with the whole destroying nuclear bipedal tank and within the cutscenes themselves it is pretty much anti-war.

Well the Fallout series(US series btw) is good example for post apocalyptic stress and the lingering threat of WMDs that came with the Cold War. There certainly is a degree of back and forth of ideas between different cultures on this subject.

 

[Rest]

It's always shoehorned in and gets in the way of whatever story they're telling, so I can't stand it. I've never seen a Japanese movie or played a Japanese game that mentioned war and how awful it was and felt it was at all relevant to the characters in the story or what they were doing. That includes games and movies about wars.

 

[Nakho]

Japanese storytellers may have a more liberal approach to the subject of war, but the government as a whole is still pushing revisionist history text books and downplaying the atrocities committed during WWII.

I feel like 60+ years isn't enough time for a one time imperialist nation to do a complete about face. Like the US in regards to race relations; I think they still have some soul-searching to do.

Just my opinion.

I agree.

 

[SolKane]

Some would argue that Japanese "monster" fiction - from Godzilla to Attack on Titan - is about Japan's right to defend themselves via any means necessary against larger outside threats like China or North Korea.

No, Godzilla is manifestation of Japan's anxiety around the atomic age and the devastating effects of nuclear power upon the natural order.

 

[Akainu]

being nuked will do that to you.

 

[Heroman]

Godzilla is more of a anti nukes movie than anti war movie.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

I don't know OP. Maybe American fiction just contains more patriotism?

 

[openrob]

I visited Hiroshima this week, and yeah one of the biggest things that hit me was how apologetic they were and how honest they were being. It was like "Yeah this happened, but here is the part we played as well - so basically guys, all war is bad, trust us".

I also think that western media indoctrinates people to thing they are the centre of the universe.

So yeah I kinda see your point.

edit:

Japanese storytellers may have a more liberal approach to the subject of war, but the government as a whole is still pushing revisionist history text books and downplaying the atrocities committed during WWII.

I feel like 60+ years isn't enough time for a one time imperialist nation to do a complete about face. Like the US in regards to race relations; I think they still have some soul-searching to do.

Just my opinion.

Seriously that was the complete opposite of the experience I got in Japan (granted I was there a week). In the meuseum, which mind you is centred around very harsh destruction of the Japanese, was actively promoting the need for history to be unbiased, and done so by being very honest about their past attrocities.

 

[nateeasy]

They started it.

 

[BocoDragon]

The post-war narrative was that the Japanese people, and maybe even the Emperor himself, were otherwise good people who had been swept away by war. It was a consequence of allowing them to feel relatively innocent of guilt and get back to work, serving their new role the Western economy. They would thus take away an entirely different lesson on how to view war than the likes of America, Germany, or the USSR.

War was a kind of disembodied force that needed to be contained, lest it sweep away good people. It wasn't something that humans made... It was something that happened to humans. This is reflected in their fiction.

Godzilla is a good allegory for this faceless version of war. It isn't the result of scheming humans and their greed, or conflict with other humans. It's a mysterious inhuman force that is accidentally unleashed by an otherwise innocent people upon themselves.

(By contrast, America took away the lesson of using war to improve the world. Germany saw war as perpetrated by the worst tendencies in the soul of their own people. And the USSR saw war as tremendous self-sacrifice for the good of the collective.)

 

[Mr. RHC]

Seriously that was the complete opposite of the experience I got in Japan (granted I was there a week). In the meuseum, which mind you is centred around very harsh destruction of the Japanese, was actively promoting the need for history to be unbiased, and done so by being very honest about their past attrocities.

This sounds like a good thing!

They started it.

lol, again, if anyone still thinks this thread is about blaming someone, no, it is not!

By contrast, America took away the lesson of using war to improve the world. Germany saw war as perpetrated by the worst tendencies in the soul of their own people. And the USSR saw war as tremendous self-sacrifice for the good of the collective.)

A lot of lessons to be learned from each of these fates.
It would really be intersting to see some post USSR reconciliation fiction but it is probably still too early for that given that the Soviet Union only was dissolved 23 years ago, and if there was any immediate reaction it was unlikely to ever reach the west.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

I don't think there's much to interpret from Transformers or Metal Gear. They're not exactly War and Peace, it's just mindless entertainment.

Not really sure you're familiar with either of them if you honestly think they're both on the same level of mindlessness, and that some of the MGS games don't have a message

 

[May16]

Fun* side note, they're currently expanding their air force and navy, greatly increasing military spending, in the midst of a huge soldier recruitment campaign, and modifying the constitution so that it allows fighting not just in self defense in the strictest sense.

First reality, then it'll spread to fiction. The pro-war narrative is making a comeback, baby!


* = It is not fun