What if its all true?

cryptoadam

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So what if its all true and there was FISA abuse, that the either the FBI/DOJ/CIA/HRC or even Obama did make this all up to spy on Trump, entrap him, rig the election, and then try to get rid of him and over turn the 2016 election?

Lets say its all true, that Mifsud was a western intelligence asset, that Papa G was entrapped, that the FBI knew Steele's dossier was phony and committed FISA fraud.

What happens? Lets say Obama or Hillary knew they get indicted and carted off to jail? Would Obama the first black president actually be indicted in this type of scheme? Could you imagine the cries of racism.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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Well the funny thing about conspiracy is that it remains conspiracy until it is confirmed to be true. We'll likely find out answers to most of these questions in just a few weeks.

I ordered a 55 gal drum of popping kernels, though, for sure.
 
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Texas Pride

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People involved with no money and connections will go to jail. Obama and Clinton won't. That's not fair or right but it's how we've seen this work in America. That's what would happen. If you have a large enough bankroll you can buy your way out of anything.
 
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Taxexemption

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The problem is all of these people in power are guilty, most of them operate under the assumption that either they won't get caught or they won't be prosecuted for their particular kinds of improprieties. Virtually every politician elected to office is guilty of something, all it takes is the right attorney general sizing them up. For this reason, they generally don't go after each other because they understand that they could create a never ending conflict where whoever takes power immediately uses the office to jail and oppress their political opponents. I think the left may ruin this dynamic, and if they do that's how we could create what will inevitably evolve into a civil war.
 
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Yoshi

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I deem it extremely unlikely to be true, but if it was, the political actors would probably not be important anymore in day-to-day politics, so it would a scandal, some investigations by the FBI and probably legal charges against the perpetrators. I would expect it to damage the Democratic platform for 1-2 years, but ultimately, as Obama and Clinton are not really active anymore, it would probably have no long lasting effect on the party itself. A limitation of the powers of the president may happen though, to prevent a repeat.
 
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Joe T.

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I'm more interested in seeing how the media tries to spin the story if it turns out to be true. Whether or not the guilty parties face any sort of justice isn't quite as important because the court of public opinion will bury them anyway, though it would be nice to know that this kind of scandal couldn't be so easily perpetrated again in the future.
 
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bucyou

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“Because IG Horowitz is the hero America deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So the liberals will trash him. Because he can take it. Because he's not their hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight.”
 
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diablos991

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Honestly if it is true I could see the outcome becoming classified and hidden from the public eye.

There are several delicate issues at play. One would have to limit the public awareness/response to not set off the crazys.

Slow and steady keeps things stable.
 
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Zangiefy360

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President Trump will tweet about it, the media will provide cover for the perps, and the people will be as upset as their political affiliation allows them to be. The right will say "lock him up!" and the left will say "meh, it was deserved."
 
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i_am_ben

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So in this scenario, the Australian Government is in on the conspiracy?
 

autoduelist

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I think Comey, Brennan, and a few other high profile ABC's will be sacrificed. If rumors are true, people are already flipping.

I don't think the public has the stomach for hanging, so it'll be significant jail time. Unless declassified documents or testimony come up that directly speak to coup, in which case anything goes. As trump has said, this can never again happen in our future. Trump has said the word 'treason' more than once. This travesty of justice has already ripped the country in two, and wasted years. Important people have themselves accused Trump of treason on national. TV, which, if it had been found true, could have resulted in the execution of a president. I don't think Trump can or should take that lightly.

I think Obama and Clinton will be protected by others falling on their swords in various deals. Maybe disgraced. Not jailed. Depends on how much dirty laundry has been dug up.

Regarding the media. I think the declassified documents are going to be absolutely damning. I think enough is going on the media will need to cease fire, though obviously some will continue to run cover for the guilty. if enough run cover, to the point they convince half the population Trump is arresting opponents for no reason, it will break the country because clearly they wont accept 2020 either. If the media, despite evidence, push the narrative Trump is a usurper in 2020, we could easily see conflict.

So, I'm hoping the declassified documents and testimony of flippers is compelling. The media needs to swallow their pride, admit they were wrong, and support trump in this for the good of the country.
 
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So in this scenario, the Australian Government is in on the conspiracy?
You mean one man? Alexander Downer? Who was connected to the Clintons going back as far as 2006? The reality is that his story directly contradicts the FBI's. And they're both fraying fast.

The likely reality is that Papadopoulos was set up.
 

Teletraan1

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I think Comey will be having his next CNN town hall from jail. Nobody else other than a few bad actors in the FBI will take any heat for this. You won't see Clinton, Obama, Biden catch anything on this.
 

i_am_ben

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You mean one man? Alexander Downer? Who was connected to the Clintons going back as far as 2006? The reality is that his story directly contradicts the FBI's. And they're both fraying fast.

The likely reality is that Papadopoulos was set up.
I believe the conservative Australian Government also forwarded Downer's concerns to the US Government so it's not just him.

Also, Alexander Downer is a former leader of the conservative party in Australia, current Ambassador to the UK (the second highest Ambassadorship in Australia) and served in Cabinet as Australia's Foreign Minister for almost a decade. He's not some random no-name guy. He's about as high profile a person you can get.
 

i_am_ben

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And even if you believe that Downer is dirty (which I won't entirely rule out given his role in stealing East Timor's gas for Australia), the timeline for this conspiracy is not the best.

i.e. the Professor was already in contact with Papadopoulos prior to the hacking even occurring, and introducing him to Russians with ties to the Russian Government.

This begs the question - why would Obama and Hillary be looking for a fall guy for something that hasn't occurred yet?
 

Burnttips

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Both parties have something they want covered up. It wasn’t just Democrat’s that were involved in the dossier. I heard the pee story about hookers back in 2000 primaries between Bush and McCain. Look at how fast Karl Rove wanted Trump to stop the investigation and move on. They got shit they are hiding.
 

oagboghi2

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President Trump will tweet about it, the media will provide cover for the perps, and the people will be as upset as their political affiliation allows them to be. The right will say "lock him up!" and the left will say "meh, it was deserved."
pretty much. For all the crap Trump voters get for their support of Trump, Obama fans are no different. They will perform any mental gymnastic to believe Obama and Hillary are innocent, and when that fails, the media will just smear anyone who disagrees to be a racist or a nazi. Like clockwork

Maybe some no name spends a few months in club fed, but ultimately no one cares. The democratic party is untouchable once you hit a certain level.
 

cryptoadam

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autoduelist

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bump for this thread.

Getting closer to it being true.
I look forward to the increasing probability I get to bump my treason thread.

We are definitely starting to see things come together. Barr seems to be doing his job exceedingly well.
 
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cryptoadam

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I look forward to the increasing probability I get to bump my treason thread.

We are definitely starting to see things come together. Barr seems to be doing his job exceedingly well.
I think its going to need a good bump soon.

The day of reckoning is coming and I don't think its going to be 22 months of waiting for a nothing burger like Mueller.

The whole cabal were completly biased against Trump and thought they were super patriots for stopping the American people from chosing their next president.

The last question will be did this go up to Obama. Its hard to believe that Obama didn't know what his FBI and DOJ were doing, especially to an oppostion candidate during the election/transition to power.
 
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cryptoadam

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I think we should all temper our expectations and just be happy this is being investigated. Don't want to get Mueller'd.
Yes for sure. No need to say we got em this time like every time Mueller leaked something.

But there are a lot of juicy details coming out and its fun to speculate. But I will wait till the final word is out before declaring victory LOL.

Its entirly possible this is just Republican spin and everything was done by the books. Just doubtful, but surely possible.

If I am wrong may Trump eat my soul.
 
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The same thing that almost always happens when filthy-rich people get caught doing something illegal: A slap on the wrist.

Unless the public forgets about it in a week, as usual, then an even more severe punishment will occur: Absolutely nothing.
 
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He's not some random no-name guy. He's about as high profile a person you can get.
He is high - profile. I did not deny that. He is, however, a Clinton Foundation crony. That is a fact.

i.e. the Professor was already in contact with Papadopoulos prior to the hacking even occurring, and introducing him to Russians with ties to the Russian Government.
That is not the case.

After WikiLeaks dumped its first huge batch of Russian-stolen Democratic Party emails on July 22, 2016, the Aussie government sent Mr. Downer’s Papadopoulos cable to Washington.

The FBI by then knew the Russian military was hacking Democratic computers in 2015 and 2016. Papadopoulos did not.


 
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That article is fascinating. It clearly exposes how Papadopoulos was literally set up and this whole shitshow of that being the origin of the FISA application is just a complete farce set on by the clowns in the media.

This is going to be amazing.
 

cryptoadam

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As Papadopoulos would tell it, a man gave him the money in a Israel hotel room for some sort of Mediterranean-Middle East political consulting venture they discussed. Beyond his work for the Ben Carson and Trump presidential campaigns, Papadopoulos was also an energy consultant. Papadopoulos said he felt uncomfortable and gave the money to his lawyer in Athens, Greece, but the man would not take the money back.

In July 2017, Papadopoulos flew to Dulles International Airport outside Washington where FBI agents placed him under arrest. He pleaded guilty October 2017 to making false statements to the FBI about his contacts with Russians and served 12 days in prison late last year. He also was fined $9,500 and ordered to do community service. Papadopoulos additionally agreed to cooperate with the Russia investigation conducted by Mueller, who recently wrapped up and found no criminal conspiracy between the Trump campaign and the Russian government. The FBI launched its original counterintelligence investigation, called Crossfire Hurricane, in July 2016. It was prompted by Australian diplomat Alexander Downer informing the FBI that Papadopoulos told him Russia had damaging information on Hillary Clinton, Trump's Democratic rival in the 2016 election. Papadopoulos has said Maltese academic Joseph Mifsud, who told him about the alleged dirt on Clinton, was also working for Western intelligence.

Papadopoulos said on Tuesday that the money is still with his lawyer in Greece. He said he believes the bills are "marked" and have a traceable link to the Obama Justice Department, FBI, and even Mueller himself.
We could be going down the rabbit hole here. Sounds a little far fetched and maybe Papa G was a little paranoid. But more smoke to add to the fire.
 

cryptoadam

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And even if you believe that Downer is dirty (which I won't entirely rule out given his role in stealing East Timor's gas for Australia), the timeline for this conspiracy is not the best.

i.e. the Professor was already in contact with Papadopoulos prior to the hacking even occurring, and introducing him to Russians with ties to the Russian Government.

This begs the question - why would Obama and Hillary be looking for a fall guy for something that hasn't occurred yet?
Who do we believe the FBI who says Mifsud is a Russian agent?

Papa G who says he is Western Intelligence?

Or Mifsud who says he is neither?

Why didn't the FBI do anything with Mifsud after he lied to them. Considering he is essentially patient 0 yet even though he was in the Washington in 2017 the FBI or Mueller never talked to him since his first interview.
 

i_am_ben

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Who do we believe the FBI who says Mifsud is a Russian agent?

Papa G who says he is Western Intelligence?

Or Mifsud who says he is neither?

Why didn't the FBI do anything with Mifsud after he lied to them. Considering he is essentially patient 0 yet even though he was in the Washington in 2017 the FBI or Mueller never talked to him since his first interview.
Why should we accept the word of a person who has confessed to perjury on this very matter and impeded an investigation?
 

i_am_ben

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He is high - profile. I did not deny that. He is, however, a Clinton Foundation crony. That is a fact.



That is not the case.

After WikiLeaks dumped its first huge batch of Russian-stolen Democratic Party emails on July 22, 2016, the Aussie government sent Mr. Downer’s Papadopoulos cable to Washington.

The FBI by then knew the Russian military was hacking Democratic computers in 2015 and 2016. Papadopoulos did not.


You are correct - I apologise.

I had forgotten that the DNC hack had occurred much earlier than the Podesta hack (which is the one that occurred after Papadopoulos and the Professor had met).
 
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Why should we accept the word of a person who has confessed to perjury on this very matter and impeded an investigation?
Because he clearly didn't share the information. His sentence was reduced to two weeks! This is what the judge said about Papadopoulos at his sentencing hearing:

“I don’t have any reason to believe and I don’t think there’s any reason in the record to conclude that Mr. Papadopoulos had any desire to aid Russia in any way, to do anything that was contrary to the national interest,” said Judge Randolph D. Moss, a Barack Obama appointee.

Mueller, in his report said:

“No documentary evidence, and nothing in the email accounts or other communications facilities reviewed by the Office, shows that Papadopoulos shared this information with the Campaign.”
 
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cryptoadam

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Why should we accept the word of a person who has confessed to perjury on this very matter and impeded an investigation?
Mifsud was never charged with perjury and the FBI/Mueller never went back to him even though they claimed that he lied to them.

Also outside of media reports what evidence does the FBI have that Mifsud is a Russian spy?

I agree Papa G may not be the most reliable person and it seems like he thinks everyone who approached him is some sort of spy. Can't blame him though when Halpern and Turk were actually spying on him.

There is a lot more evidence tying Mifsud to western inteligence then Russian, and the fact that he was at a state department Gala in 2017 makes the whole thing even more odd.
 

cryptoadam

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Not only did Strozk say that along with Trump should lose 100 million to 0 and the insurance policy, but him having an affair with Page really has to call into question his judgement.

If a FBI agent cant seperate his personal from his work enough to not stick his dick into his colleague somehow I am supposed to believe he could seperate his hate for Trump from his job?

Its clear Strozk has no ethics when it comes to his job and does not care about personal feelings seeping into his work.

And sure you may say its ok to hook up with people you work with, while not when you work at the FBI where your personal life needs to be checked at the door.

And where are the leftists? Page worked under Strozk, reported to him, is that not toxic masculinity and an abuse of power? Hello METOO???? Pussyhat anywhere?
 

Bolivar687

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It's no longer really a question whether the FBI knew the Steele Dossier was defective or that they mislead the FISA courts about its nature in order to spy on a campaign. We are well down the road on that one:


The core of the issue will likely come down to the relationship between Fusion GPS with Bruce and Nellie Ohr and their role in getting the FBI to fabricate an investigation which they could then leak to the media. Apparently Bruce is a narcotics guy - he had absolutely no business at all being anywhere near a foreign political investigation. And it was equally problematic that Fusion was shopping all of this around to the media (with ironically no buyers until after Trump had won):


Furthermore, it increasingly looks like the infamous Trump Tower meeting between Don Jr. and the Russian lawyer, which conspiracy theorists obsess over to this day, was entirely orchestrated by Fusion GPS, so they could then report about links between Trump and Russia that they themselves had manufactured:


As far as the million-dollar Clinton question, it's actually not really up for debate whether she is responsible for any of their potentially criminal activity. Under principles of agency law, her campaign and the DNC are vicariously responsible for Fusion's actions while they were under contract through their proxy, the law firm Perkins Coie. The only question is if it's a crime for a campaign to direct a political contractor to coordinate with foreign actors (and potentially foreign state actors) to fabricate facts and generate a fake criminal investigation which they can then leak to the press for dissemination. How does the analysis shift when government officials are aware of their participation in the hoax? It's up to career criminal prosecutors like Barr to put those pieces together, but there is clearly more of a criminal threshhold here than there ever was with "collusion" and fake "obstruction."

The billion dollar question, though, is whether the government officials intentionally collaborating under this scheme includes the President of the United States. We know he directly ordered his own people to "stand down" in the face of obvious Russian interference. And we also know Paige said he wanted to be involved in the Hillary investigation, which Strzok prematurely ended to prioritize the manufactured Trump investigation:



Did either of these decision have anything to do with the Trump Hoax? Occam's razor - is it more likely that a) Obama genuinely thought publicizing Russia's activities would hurt Hillary (he instead had asked McConnell to help publicize it) or b) he knew what his subordinates were doing, given they admitted to writing briefing points for him, and he wanted to get out of their way in further manufacturing links between Trump and Russia?

I recognize the scandalous nature of all this, but there is already such an extensive and well documented paper trail, I'm genuinely interested in the logic someone would use to interpret it in a different direction.
 
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cryptoadam

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@Bolivar687 Great write up.

Can we make this the OT for all this stuff? Just keep all the updates in one place.

Its going to be coming fast and furious (pun intended).
 
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Furthermore, it increasingly looks like the infamous Trump Tower meeting between Don Jr. and the Russian lawyer, which conspiracy theorists obsess over to this day, was entirely orchestrated by Fusion GPS, so they could then report about links between Trump and Russia that they themselves had manufactured:
It's crazy because I remember reading about Veselnitskaya and how her visa was extended by somebody in the Obama State Department. Preet Bharara denied her request for a visa three months prior and then suddenly she was allowed in the US to meet with Trump Jr? It's all right out in the open.

Veselnitskaya obtained a visa from the State Department to enter the country in June 2016, according to a government filing last week. The filing, which came in response to a new request by Veselnitskaya to be allowed into the U.S. for a Nov. 9 hearing in the now-settled Prevezon case, cited a Fox News report from last July.


 
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Bolivar687

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It's crazy because I remember reading about Veselnitskaya and how her visa was extended by somebody in the Obama State Department. Preet Bharara denied her request for a visa three months prior and then suddenly she was allowed in the US to meet with Trump Jr? It's all right out in the open.

Veselnitskaya obtained a visa from the State Department to enter the country in June 2016, according to a government filing last week. The filing, which came in response to a new request by Veselnitskaya to be allowed into the U.S. for a Nov. 9 hearing in the now-settled Prevezon case, cited a Fox News report from last July.


It's also well established that a) Veselnitskaya really had been lobbying in the U.S. for years regarding adoption; b) all the parties at the meeting basically walked away confused when it became apparent none of them were on the same page with why the meeting was called; and c) Veselnitskaya met with Glen Simpson, the principal of Fusion GPS, both before and after her meeting with Don Jr., while his firm is simultaneously trying to manufacture a fake criminal investigation into Trump.

It's amazing to think about these people mocking Trump for his intelligence and decrying his moral character, all the while trying to pull off something so disturbingly dark like this. It's the irony of Brennan accusing Trump of authoritarianism, while he himself literally oversaw the textbook definition of a fascist police/surveillance state.

If this was anywhere else on earth... I don't even want to say it.
 

Super Mario

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There is always a fall guy. It will never hit the higher ups.

I've just accepted that politics is a dirty game with everyone doing things that they shouldn't be.
 

Trojita

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It's also well established that a) Veselnitskaya really had been lobbying in the U.S. for years regarding adoption; b) all the parties at the meeting basically walked away confused when it became apparent none of them were on the same page with why the meeting was called; and c) Veselnitskaya met with Glen Simpson, the principal of Fusion GPS, both before and after her meeting with Don Jr., while his firm is simultaneously trying to manufacture a fake criminal investigation into Trump.

It's amazing to think about these people mocking Trump for his intelligence and decrying his moral character, all the while trying to pull off something so disturbingly dark like this. It's the irony of Brennan accusing Trump of authoritarianism, while he himself literally oversaw the textbook definition of a fascist police/surveillance state.

If this was anywhere else on earth... I don't even want to say it.
This spin is out of control.

Glen Simpson was hired by a D.C. Law Firm (BakerHostetler) which was hired by attorney Veselnitskaya who was representing Denis Katsyv in a Russian tax fraud and money laundering case. Glen Simpson was having a client lunch which is very common and likely had him interfacing with the law firm that hired him rather than attorney Veselnitskaya, which I've read there would have been a language barrier there. The "dinner" sounds more intimate and insidious than the reality. It was more like a banquet/party where Mark Cymrot , partner at BakerHostetler, invited a lot of friends, colleagues, and clients to attend. Both deny having even talked to each other at an event where numerous people had attended.

Also Veselnitskaya's adoption excuse is pure bullshit. Russia's external adoption policy has always been to only allow their disabled and sick children to be adopted out of Russia. After the Magnitsky Act froze assets of the Oligarch's, Russia responded by not allowing adoption anymore citing an incident that happened in one of the states where one family committed maltreatment on an adopted child. The United States has no part in enabling the adoption process occur again. The only victims here are the disabled and sick children. The US was willing to take in their most vulnerable to give them a better quality of life.
 

Trojita

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Then why did the Obama state department allow her to enter the country?
You'd have to ask the state department who still hasn't said to this day why they granted the visa. The state department could be compelled to speak on this issue under Trump but they still haven't publicly stated what happened. Obama appointee Pree Bharrara had been denying her request for immigration parole. Did the state grant her visa through incompetence, not checking the fact that Bharrara was denying her in the past?
 
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Glen Simpson was hired by a D.C. Law Firm (BakerHostetler) which was hired by attorney Veselnitskaya who was representing Denis Katsyv in a Russian tax fraud and money laundering case. Glen Simpson was having a client lunch which is very common and likely had him interfacing with the law firm that hired him rather than attorney Veselnitskaya, which I've read there would have been a language barrier there. The "dinner" sounds more intimate and insidious than the reality. It was more like a banquet/party where Mark Cymrot , partner at BakerHostetler, invited a lot of friends, colleagues, and clients to attend. Both deny having even talked to each other at an event where numerous people had attended.
You're saying she attended oral arguments for the Prevezon case based under the assumption that she was there to represent Katsyv. This is not the case. She was NOT permitted to enter the US under those circumstances according to Bharara. He wrote:

“Since neither Katsyv nor Veselnitskaya are required to appear as witnesses in person at this stage of proceedings, we do not believe that immigration parole is appropriate,”

So since we do not know the nature of the State Dept. visa, we cannot assume her intention was to be a part of this meeting when she was explicitly told she was not allowed to enter the US simply because she was Katsyv's lawyer.