What made Squaresoft get so angry at Nintendo?

It can't be just that. They would've just go with Sony and that was it. Square didn't get this angry at Nintendo because they chose a format they didn't want.
I'm sure it's been brought up already since this thread is long enough by now, but your entire framing that it was Square who was "Angry" is wrong: Nintendo, namely Yamauchi, was furious when Square moved development to Playstation. He burned a lot of bridges with Square in interviews after that, saying he essentially didn't want their games on his system. The most infamous was his thinly veiled insult where he says he hates RPGs and their fans.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2006/03/14/top-10-tuesday-wildest-statements-made-by-industry-veterans

Years after Square jumped off the Nintendo ship to support PlayStation with a series of smash-hit Final Fantasy role-playing games, Nintendo's retired president, Hiroshi Yamauchi, made some hilarious comments about the booming genre - and about the people drawn to it. "[People who play RPGs are] depressed gamers who like to sit alone in their dark rooms and play slow games," he noted in a 1999 interview. Yamauchi - who incidentally has prided himself on the fact that he has never played a videogame - went on to call RPGs as a whole both "silly and boring." Square Enix's Final Fantasy and DragonQuest RPGs continue to rank amongst the highest-selling games whenever they are released in Japan or America.
He wasn't exactly the most diplomatic face for a company. Fortunately Iwata was able to lure some of the companies back during the Gamecube/GBA era. As for why Square left in the first place? It just made good business sense for them. Square and Enix entered an agreement to support a single platform to make it a sort of "Ultimate RPG platform" to boost both companie's software sales. The ease and low cost of the PS1 along with all the storage space with the CDs made it a no-brainer. The N64 might've seen some support had Iwata been in charge at the time.
 
Nintendo then gave a middle finger back by preventing Square from developing GBA games at the beginning of the system's life. Square and Nintendo only patched things up after Yamauchi retired and Iwata took over since hes a more reasonable dude.
Actually the patch up happened when Yamauchi was still in charges.
For instance Squaresoft through Game Designers Studio got an investement from Yamauchi's Q fund to develop Gamecube games.
 
The breakup of Nintendo and Square was also the reason PAL never got Super Mario RPG.

Square had a hand in convincing other developers to leave Nintendo hardware. I believe Enix was the big one and likely what made Yamauchi so enraged and unwilling to work with Square afterwards
Enix still released a few games on the SNES (Terranigma in PAL, late 1996), and a couple of N64 games before going over to the Playstation. They continued to release games on Nintendo's handhelds, but never returned back to Nintendo consoles at all (as themselves).
 
Choice of carts for N64 has nothing to do with bad relationships with Squaresoft. They were both angry at each others, even before that, during SNES days. From what I read, out of redistribution of incomes from Mario RPG, about the way Nintendo was dealing with large carts (it seems that Square was denied larger cart because of their scarcity a couple of time, meanind they had to cut their games), etc.

If I'm not mistaken, the result was that Square wasn't even invited in the "dream team" Nintendo gathered for the launch of N64, and didn't received dev kits, which is a sure sign of cold relationships. Enix, on the other hand, was. When Sony approached Squaresoft for teaming with them, Nintendo probably didn't care much, but when Squaresoft and Sony convinced Enix to join them, it was a pretty bad blow, and Yamauchi must have enraged.
 
Square and Nintendo had their fights, mostly because Nintendo was a dick, but Square kept coming back to Nintendo because Nintendo was generally less of a dick to Square than they were to other publishers. Also, Nintendo was money, so most people couldn't afford to walk away from Nintendo.

Nintendo had this thing going on the SNES where you're supposed to ask them for (as an example) 2 million cartridges and give them a massive money order for that amount, and then Nintendo decides that you only "need" 500k units, so they arbitrarily sell you 500k and give you back your change (you have no say in the matter, Nintendo decides how big your game is going to be). It was crazy because you had to have enough cash in your bank account to buy a money order for 2 million units, even though you only want 500k. And if you tell Nintendo that you only want 500k (and put forward that much money), Nintendo will decide that you get 100k, and then your game bombs. If you really do want 2 million units, you need to ask (and pay for) 10 million units. At expensive cartridge prices.

Well, Square was apparently supposed to develop AND publish Mario RPG, but they decided to send Nintendo a message about this stupid policy, so they asked Nintendo for an amount of carts that Nintendo typically gave Square, not the amount that Square typically asks for. Nintendo got insulted and took the publishing duties away from Square. That might have something to do with why Square owns the name and Nintendo can't use it, because Square (not Nintendo) was originally set to publish it.

But that particular fight didn't end Nintendo and Square's relationship, nor did FF7's FMV necessarily demand that FF7 be made for PSX. FF7 got FMV added to the formula after Square moved. FF7 was originally slated to be made on SNES after FF6, but then it got cancelled so the developers could work on Chrono Trigger, and after Chrono Trigger they got pencilled in for FF7 on the N64, and started to experiment on how to use the analog stick. They never got past playing around with the analog stick before higher-ups at Square decided to give Nintendo the boot and move to Sony.

Sony had flirted with Square over the original Play Station (the Sony-made CD add-on for the SNES). This resulted in some fights with Nintendo and canned/shoehorned games, and a few business cards being traded back and forth.

When carts were announced for the N64, half the industry objected (the other half cheered for the death of Nintendo), but RPGs were singled out as the genre which would be hurt by carts the most. So Nintendo quickly put together their "64DD" idea, which was good enough to get Square and Enix to hesitate and say "I'm listening". Nintendo apparently asked Square and Enix for a wishlist of things they wanted for the 64DD (anything except CD), and they apparently asked for premade text fonts to be built into the system, to make it cheaper and easier for text-heavy games to be made for the 64DD. I remember at one point I read in an old magazine that Square and Enix were being listed as "design partners" with Nintendo on the 64DD. Nintendo really wanted to make them happy. At one point, I believe the 64DD was pencilled in for about four games, Zelda 64, FF7, DQ7, and Mother 3.

But Sony had an actual CD-based system and Square's business card, so they asked Square "Seriously, what are you doing bending over backwards to support these assholes who have proven time and time again that they don't give a damn about you. Nintendo's trying to meet you halfway? Fuck halfway. If you were our girl, we would give you everything you wanted and more."

So yeah, Square dumped Nintendo and moved to Sony. And apparently when Square told Yamauchi about it, he was okay with it, because everyone else dumped Nintendo a lot quicker, and it was the right move for Square.

But then Sony treated Square like rock stars, and there were interviews about how awesome Sony and PSX were, compared to the hell Square had to endure with Nintendo and LOL carts, and Sony produced and paid for ads for FF7 in America which specifically took shots against Nintendo and the N64 (ads made by Sony, in Square's name). Another thing which was rumored to be a major factor in pissing off Yamauchi was that Square's president apparently met with Enix's president for coffee, and Square convinced Enix to dump Nintendo too. Now Nintendo was left with no RPG support, and the 64DD which was built almost exclusively for Square and Enix looked pointless. Zelda 64 got shoehorned onto carts, kind of like what happened to Square's games on the original Play Station. Square gave Nintendo a second taste of what it was like to be one of Nintendo's "partners".

So Yamauchi lashed out against Square, and held a grudge for years. He only let them come back (pretty much tried to bribe them, even) after Square's president was forced to step down.
 
It can't be just that. They would've just go with Sony and that was it. Square didn't get this angry at Nintendo because they chose a format they didn't want.
They chose a format that Square's biggest games couldn't run on "after" informing them they're going to use CDs, how is that not a big issue?
 
Forma what I know IT was a series of factors... Mainly the using of cartridges instead of CDs (especially since for a big part of the SNES gen,square and Nintendo were on war with each other because square needed bigger cartridges for their games,but needed to pass through Nintendo to obtain them..and sometimes Nintendo would refuse ,just to use those same bigger cartridges for some other first party product),the higher royalties that Nintendo demanded from his third party partners compared to what Sony was proposing.. And the fact that at this point in time,yamauchi-san clearly got the reputation of being a dick with his 'partners'...since at that time the SNES was on the top of the world and he though they could go away with anything...pretty much what happened with Sony and ps3,before they sorted things out
 
my god there's so much misinformation here, it's almost as if we're witnessing the rewrite of a pivotal moment in gaming history.
every generation this question is asked by 'newer' gamers, and every generation the reasons and stories become even more uninformed, distorted, and outright fictional.

there's about a handful of people in this thread so far that have mentioned something that is specifically 'accurate'.
i've taken part in addressing this question in the distant past on other forums with a slew of links, newspaper clippings, interviews with square executives involved, etc.
the problem now is, because that was so long ago i no longer have those links at my disposal, unfortunately.

anybody who says 'cartridges' as the full and definite answer is wrong. that is NOT why square left nintendo. that wasn't even the straw that broke the camels back.
nintendo, up until the gcn, was very terrible with their treatment of most 3rd parties. i say most, because there were some developers like enix, who were treated like royalty in comparison.

from what i remember, square, too, had a very close relationship with nintendo. they enjoyed a fruitful partnership and made a lot of money off each other.
square's dissatisfaction started during the 16 bit era. again i don't have all the details anymore, but people mentioning Nintendo being 'cheap' to their close partner with examples of disallowing square the extra megs they needed for larger cartridges is absolutely CORRECT.
Square made plenty of requests of a similar vein; all of which were denied by nintendo. in an act of complete douchebag-ery, when enix asked for the same thing, nintendo gave it to them without question.
this didn't happen all at once. multiple requests throughout the generation were denied and it turned square off, ever so slightly


Square and Nintendo had their fights, mostly because Nintendo was a dick, but Square kept coming back to Nintendo because Nintendo was generally less of a dick to Square than they were to other publishers. Also, Nintendo was money, so most people couldn't afford to walk away from Nintendo.

Nintendo had this thing going on the SNES where you're supposed to ask them for (as an example) 2 million cartridges and give them a massive money order for that amount, and then Nintendo decides that you only "need" 500k units, so they arbitrarily sell you 500k and give you back your change (you have no say in the matter, Nintendo decides how big your game is going to be). It was crazy because you had to have enough cash in your bank account to buy a money order for 2 million units, even though you only want 500k. And if you tell Nintendo that you only want 500k (and put forward that much money), Nintendo will decide that you get 100k, and then your game bombs. If you really do want 2 million units, you need to ask (and pay for) 10 million units. At expensive cartridge prices.

Well, Square was apparently supposed to develop AND publish Mario RPG, but they decided to send Nintendo a message about this stupid policy, so they asked Nintendo for an amount of carts that Nintendo typically gave Square, not the amount that Square typically asks for. Nintendo got insulted and took the publishing duties away from Square. That might have something to do with why Square owns the name and Nintendo can't use it, because Square (not Nintendo) was originally set to publish it.

But that particular fight didn't end Nintendo and Square's relationship, nor did FF7's FMV necessarily demand that FF7 be made for PSX. FF7 got FMV added to the formula after Square moved. FF7 was originally slated to be made on SNES after FF6, but then it got cancelled so the developers could work on Chrono Trigger, and after Chrono Trigger they got pencilled in for FF7 on the N64, and started to experiment on how to use the analog stick. They never got past playing around with the analog stick before higher-ups at Square decided to give Nintendo the boot and move to Sony.

Sony had flirted with Square over the original Play Station (the Sony-made CD add-on for the SNES). This resulted in some fights with Nintendo and canned/shoehorned games, and a few business cards being traded back and forth.

When carts were announced for the N64, half the industry objected (the other half cheered for the death of Nintendo), but RPGs were singled out as the genre which would be hurt by carts the most. So Nintendo quickly put together their "64DD" idea, which was good enough to get Square and Enix to hesitate and say "I'm listening". Nintendo apparently asked Square and Enix for a wishlist of things they wanted for the 64DD (anything except CD), and they apparently asked for premade text fonts to be built into the system, to make it cheaper and easier for text-heavy games to be made for the 64DD. I remember at one point I read in an old magazine that Square and Enix were being listed as "design partners" with Nintendo on the 64DD. Nintendo really wanted to make them happy. At one point, I believe the 64DD was pencilled in for about four games, Zelda 64, FF7, DQ7, and Mother 3.

But Sony had an actual CD-based system and Square's business card, so they asked Square "Seriously, what are you doing bending over backwards to support these assholes who have proven time and time again that they don't give a damn about you. Nintendo's trying to meet you halfway? Fuck halfway. If you were our girl, we would give you everything you wanted and more."

So yeah, Square dumped Nintendo and moved to Sony. And apparently when Square told Yamauchi about it, he was okay with it, because everyone else dumped Nintendo a lot quicker, and it was the right move for Square.

But then Sony treated Square like rock stars, and there were interviews about how awesome Sony and PSX were, compared to the hell Square had to endure with Nintendo and LOL carts, and Sony produced and paid for ads for FF7 in America which specifically took shots against Nintendo and the N64 (ads made by Sony, in Square's name). Another thing which was rumored to be a major factor in pissing off Yamauchi was that Square's president apparently met with Enix's president for coffee, and Square convinced Enix to dump Nintendo too. Now Nintendo was left with no RPG support, and the 64DD which was built almost exclusively for Square and Enix looked pointless. Zelda 64 got shoehorned onto carts, kind of like what happened to Square's games on the original Play Station. Square gave Nintendo a second taste of what it was like to be one of Nintendo's "partners".

So Yamauchi lashed out against Square, and held a grudge for years. He only let them come back (pretty much tried to bribe them, even) after Square's president was forced to step down.
some of this is correct.
a few things though, from what i remember researching…

**your point about the cartridge orders is spot on. from my memory nintendo did indeed do this. ridiculous, really.
**by the time the SMRPG project rolled around, nintendo already felt a strain on their relationship with square. that's why they offered them the mario franchise; as a show of faith of some sorts.
**FF7 was never an active n64 project. that tech demo was nothing more than that. FF7 did start out a snes game though, and it was originally set in NYC, and the main character was a detective called 'joe' or something.
**square indeed flirted with sony a little during the snes cd rom debacle. SoM2 was originally planned for that platform but development was switched, then butchered in an attempt to fit into your typical snes cartridge.
** the point about Yamauchi being ok with square's departure is also true. his exact response was indeed "it couldn't be helped". the insult square 'felt' at yamauchi being ok with them leaving is also true. i used to have the article that linked to an executive confirming this. again that was years ago and i no longer have it.
** the point about most developers already leaving by the time square decided to jump ship is a half truth as far as i remember. true, most developers had already signed up to make games for playstation, not too many of them though, aside from namco and square, committed to the psx platform exclusively. they still had plans to develop n64 titles. it was only after squaresoft actively sought them all out and convinced them to drop nintendo (which happened very early in the generation), did they finally commit to playstation exclusivity. Onimusha for example was rumoured to have begun as a n64 project, which moved to psx. when capcom realised they couldn't fullfill their vision on that platform, they moved it to ps2 where it released.
 
Someone please get the guys who make cartridge games a cigarette and a blindfold.

Possibly the greatest game ever made is available only on PlayStation.

Good thing. If it were available on cartridge, it'd retail for around $1,200.
 
no this is wrong.

super mario rpg 2 was paper mario. they(nintendo) changed the title later on(you could see in mags that the game was called for a long time rpg 2).

the game is called super mario story in japan, so there is no way that square fucked around the name. this is simply a wrong information.

and about the cds.... square could choose between carts or cds.

and paying nintendo a ridiculous amount of money to produce their games or to independently mass produce them with a small licence fee from sony, they could choose it.

also dont forget the indredible big space difference.

carts which didnt have more space than 512mbit (64mb) (resi2/donkey kong 64)
and cds 500mb-800mb later and dont forget having up to 4 cds for one game....
 
More interesting thread than I expected. Lot of back and forth so I'm not sure what to believe, but a lot of interesting perspectives at least.

also why is it that Nintendo acolytes hate console numbers when talking about the GC but love console numbers when talking about the Wii? And no-one ever mentions attach rate during either gen.
I'm not sure what the attach rate was for any of the consoles in gen 6, but are you saying there was something wrong with the Wii's attach rate? Do you know anything about what you're talking about?

last point? All those gaming PC's running windows circa 2001, do they have any bearing on "games"? If you include GBA seems only fair.
That answers that question.
 
*FF7 was never an active n64 project. that tech demo was nothing more than that. FF7 did start out a snes game though, and it was originally set in NYC, and the main character was a detective called 'joe' or something.
Yeah, the Siggraph tech demo (commonly referred to as Final Fantasy 7 64) was inspired by FF6 and made by Square USA (not the Final Fantasy team) as an example of how RPGs might work in 3D. It wasn't nearly FF7 64.

But after Chrono Trigger, Square was heading to Nintendo's next console as a default, with FF7 being the default thing they would make, but it apparently never went beyond experiments in playing around with trying to figure out how N64's analog worked.
 
i also want to re-iterate that Nintendo, despite popular fictional belief, was perfectly ok with square moving to playstation.
they even wished them well.

their 'bad blood' only started the moment squaresoft had secret meetings with enix to convince them to drop nintendo support.
note the key here, is not simply to "also develop for playstation", but to outright "drop" nintendo,
what people always seem to overlook is how close Nintendo & Enix were. Losing DQ to nintendo executives was like losing one of their own internal franchises.

despite the shift from n64 to psx, nintendo still continued to publicly say positive things about enix and actually complimented DQ7 when it released on playstation.
and yes yamauchi said all those insulting things about the jrpg. his intention however, was not to insult the genre per se (remember they loved DQ), but to insult square in perpetual retaliation. lol.
 
Square and Nintendo had their fights, mostly because Nintendo was a dick, but Square kept coming back to Nintendo because Nintendo was generally less of a dick to Square than they were to other publishers. Also, Nintendo was money, so most people couldn't afford to walk away from Nintendo.

Nintendo had this thing going on the SNES where you're supposed to ask them for (as an example) 2 million cartridges and give them a massive money order for that amount, and then Nintendo decides that you only "need" 500k units, so they arbitrarily sell you 500k and give you back your change (you have no say in the matter, Nintendo decides how big your game is going to be). It was crazy because you had to have enough cash in your bank account to buy a money order for 2 million units, even though you only want 500k. And if you tell Nintendo that you only want 500k (and put forward that much money), Nintendo will decide that you get 100k, and then your game bombs. If you really do want 2 million units, you need to ask (and pay for) 10 million units. At expensive cartridge prices.

Well, Square was apparently supposed to develop AND publish Mario RPG, but they decided to send Nintendo a message about this stupid policy, so they asked Nintendo for an amount of carts that Nintendo typically gave Square, not the amount that Square typically asks for. Nintendo got insulted and took the publishing duties away from Square. That might have something to do with why Square owns the name and Nintendo can't use it, because Square (not Nintendo) was originally set to publish it.

But that particular fight didn't end Nintendo and Square's relationship, nor did FF7's FMV necessarily demand that FF7 be made for PSX. FF7 got FMV added to the formula after Square moved. FF7 was originally slated to be made on SNES after FF6, but then it got cancelled so the developers could work on Chrono Trigger, and after Chrono Trigger they got pencilled in for FF7 on the N64, and started to experiment on how to use the analog stick. They never got past playing around with the analog stick before higher-ups at Square decided to give Nintendo the boot and move to Sony.

Sony had flirted with Square over the original Play Station (the Sony-made CD add-on for the SNES). This resulted in some fights with Nintendo and canned/shoehorned games, and a few business cards being traded back and forth.

When carts were announced for the N64, half the industry objected (the other half cheered for the death of Nintendo), but RPGs were singled out as the genre which would be hurt by carts the most. So Nintendo quickly put together their "64DD" idea, which was good enough to get Square and Enix to hesitate and say "I'm listening". Nintendo apparently asked Square and Enix for a wishlist of things they wanted for the 64DD (anything except CD), and they apparently asked for premade text fonts to be built into the system, to make it cheaper and easier for text-heavy games to be made for the 64DD. I remember at one point I read in an old magazine that Square and Enix were being listed as "design partners" with Nintendo on the 64DD. Nintendo really wanted to make them happy. At one point, I believe the 64DD was pencilled in for about four games, Zelda 64, FF7, DQ7, and Mother 3.

But Sony had an actual CD-based system and Square's business card, so they asked Square "Seriously, what are you doing bending over backwards to support these assholes who have proven time and time again that they don't give a damn about you. Nintendo's trying to meet you halfway? Fuck halfway. If you were our girl, we would give you everything you wanted and more."

So yeah, Square dumped Nintendo and moved to Sony. And apparently when Square told Yamauchi about it, he was okay with it, because everyone else dumped Nintendo a lot quicker, and it was the right move for Square.

But then Sony treated Square like rock stars, and there were interviews about how awesome Sony and PSX were, compared to the hell Square had to endure with Nintendo and LOL carts, and Sony produced and paid for ads for FF7 in America which specifically took shots against Nintendo and the N64 (ads made by Sony, in Square's name). Another thing which was rumored to be a major factor in pissing off Yamauchi was that Square's president apparently met with Enix's president for coffee, and Square convinced Enix to dump Nintendo too. Now Nintendo was left with no RPG support, and the 64DD which was built almost exclusively for Square and Enix looked pointless. Zelda 64 got shoehorned onto carts, kind of like what happened to Square's games on the original Play Station. Square gave Nintendo a second taste of what it was like to be one of Nintendo's "partners".

So Yamauchi lashed out against Square, and held a grudge for years. He only let them come back (pretty much tried to bribe them, even) after Square's president was forced to step down.
This has been one of the most interesting replies I've ever gotten in my short NeoGAF tenure.

Thanks for taking your time to write this.

Love you, GAF!
 
What I remember from the time, is that Nintendo was a stupid company from what ive read in magazines.
They didnt support you in making games, they wanted lots of money from you to make the games.

Sony with its newcomer gave away free developerkits, they gave lots of support when you did your games. and the fee for making games were like none in comparsion.

guess thats why... and Nintendo has always been a greedy company. they wanted second hand games to be illegal already in the 80ies in scandinavia...
 


Your so right, and 'blows my mind' that even today they refuse to do business with Nintendo over past business decision of using cartridges over cds. geesh.

But we all know things are never that simple.... are they?
Square has arguably put out their best content on Nintendo platforms since the PS2.
 
Care to share that story? Not all of us know about it!
Oh sure. So basically the deal is that on the SNES Nintendo required that 3rd parties had their games made by Nintendo. (Sega did not require this.) This meant that every game produced on a Nintendo system required the 3rd party to pay an extra fee.(You'd pay your royalty which I think might have actually been higher than on say Sega but you also had to pay for the cart.) Worse was that Nintendo was a bit slow on production.(Not as much of an issue if you were making them yourself.) So this meant when ordering cartridges you had to be precise on how many you wanted. Order too few and now you're waiting month for your next order to go through Nintendo.(And most games sold the majority in the first couple of months.) Too many and you were stuck with extra carts that eat into your profits. (But of course Nintendo was paid up front so they got their money.)

Now what you have to remember is one of the games that really turned the SNES around, especially in the US, was Street Fighter 2 which did sell quite well. Of course SF2HF also sold a lot too. So when it was time to put out SSF2 they figured it would sell a lot too. Unfortunately it didn't and they ended up being stuck with I believe a million carts. So they tried to return them to Nintendo to get some of their money back. Pretty much they figured that Nintendo owes us a big favor for SF2.(I mean hell, they could have put it on a Sega system.) Pretty much Nintendo told them sucks to be you but we're not giving you any money back. Suffice it to say Capcom felt a bit screwed. (Especially as I mentioned putting the first SF2 on the SNES was a big thing and really helped out Nintendo.)
 

Woo-Fu

incest on the subway
It can't be just that. They would've just go with Sony and that was it. Square didn't get this angry at Nintendo because they chose a format they didn't want.
It probably wasn't just that. Just about every third party hated Nintendo's draconian policies during the Nintendo era. They ruled with an iron fist.
 
Square and Nintendo had their fights, mostly because Nintendo was a dick, but Square kept coming back to Nintendo because Nintendo was generally less of a dick to Square than they were to other publishers. Also, Nintendo was money, so most people couldn't afford to walk away from Nintendo.

Nintendo had this thing going on the SNES where you're supposed to ask them for (as an example) 2 million cartridges and give them a massive money order for that amount, and then Nintendo decides that you only "need" 500k units, so they arbitrarily sell you 500k and give you back your change (you have no say in the matter, Nintendo decides how big your game is going to be). It was crazy because you had to have enough cash in your bank account to buy a money order for 2 million units, even though you only want 500k. And if you tell Nintendo that you only want 500k (and put forward that much money), Nintendo will decide that you get 100k, and then your game bombs. If you really do want 2 million units, you need to ask (and pay for) 10 million units. At expensive cartridge prices.

Well, Square was apparently supposed to develop AND publish Mario RPG, but they decided to send Nintendo a message about this stupid policy, so they asked Nintendo for an amount of carts that Nintendo typically gave Square, not the amount that Square typically asks for. Nintendo got insulted and took the publishing duties away from Square. That might have something to do with why Square owns the name and Nintendo can't use it, because Square (not Nintendo) was originally set to publish it.

But that particular fight didn't end Nintendo and Square's relationship, nor did FF7's FMV necessarily demand that FF7 be made for PSX. FF7 got FMV added to the formula after Square moved. FF7 was originally slated to be made on SNES after FF6, but then it got cancelled so the developers could work on Chrono Trigger, and after Chrono Trigger they got pencilled in for FF7 on the N64, and started to experiment on how to use the analog stick. They never got past playing around with the analog stick before higher-ups at Square decided to give Nintendo the boot and move to Sony.

Sony had flirted with Square over the original Play Station (the Sony-made CD add-on for the SNES). This resulted in some fights with Nintendo and canned/shoehorned games, and a few business cards being traded back and forth.

When carts were announced for the N64, half the industry objected (the other half cheered for the death of Nintendo), but RPGs were singled out as the genre which would be hurt by carts the most. So Nintendo quickly put together their "64DD" idea, which was good enough to get Square and Enix to hesitate and say "I'm listening". Nintendo apparently asked Square and Enix for a wishlist of things they wanted for the 64DD (anything except CD), and they apparently asked for premade text fonts to be built into the system, to make it cheaper and easier for text-heavy games to be made for the 64DD. I remember at one point I read in an old magazine that Square and Enix were being listed as "design partners" with Nintendo on the 64DD. Nintendo really wanted to make them happy. At one point, I believe the 64DD was pencilled in for about four games, Zelda 64, FF7, DQ7, and Mother 3.

But Sony had an actual CD-based system and Square's business card, so they asked Square "Seriously, what are you doing bending over backwards to support these assholes who have proven time and time again that they don't give a damn about you. Nintendo's trying to meet you halfway? Fuck halfway. If you were our girl, we would give you everything you wanted and more."

So yeah, Square dumped Nintendo and moved to Sony. And apparently when Square told Yamauchi about it, he was okay with it, because everyone else dumped Nintendo a lot quicker, and it was the right move for Square.

But then Sony treated Square like rock stars, and there were interviews about how awesome Sony and PSX were, compared to the hell Square had to endure with Nintendo and LOL carts, and Sony produced and paid for ads for FF7 in America which specifically took shots against Nintendo and the N64 (ads made by Sony, in Square's name). Another thing which was rumored to be a major factor in pissing off Yamauchi was that Square's president apparently met with Enix's president for coffee, and Square convinced Enix to dump Nintendo too. Now Nintendo was left with no RPG support, and the 64DD which was built almost exclusively for Square and Enix looked pointless. Zelda 64 got shoehorned onto carts, kind of like what happened to Square's games on the original Play Station. Square gave Nintendo a second taste of what it was like to be one of Nintendo's "partners".

So Yamauchi lashed out against Square, and held a grudge for years. He only let them come back (pretty much tried to bribe them, even) after Square's president was forced to step down.
This is great.
 
Nintendo was ruthless back in the day - they pissed off a lot of parties. Yamauchi did not fuck around.

That being said - I find the Paper Mario/SMRPG thing hard to believe. How could another company own the naming rights to a Mario game? Nintendo probably just wanted to call it something more interesting than "Mario RPG 2."
 
Nintendo was ruthless back in the day - they pissed off a lot of parties. Yamauchi did not fuck around.

That being said - I find the Paper Mario/SMRPG thing hard to believe. How could another company own the naming rights to a Mario game? Nintendo probably just wanted to call it something more interesting than "Mario RPG 2."
Sometimes developers can own the parts that they added to a franchise. Like, Rare created "Krystal" for the StarFox franchise, but if Rare hadn't given Krystal to Nintendo, Nintendo wouldn't have been able to use her in future StarFox games. And neither would Rare, for that matter. She would exist in limbo until Nintendo and Rare agreed to work together again and let her exist in the present reality (Rare avoided this situation by giving/selling Krystal to Nintendo).

Or, if Nintendo wanted to make a massively-superior remake of "Zelda: Wand of Gamelon", Nintendo would probably have to ask Phillips for permission. Phillips very broadly can't make any more Zelda games without Nintendo's permission, but Nintendo very narrowly can't make another Wand of Gamelon without Phillips.

"Geno" from Mario RPG had a small cameo in "Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga" (around the time Square and Nintendo patched things up), and the credits for the game say "Geno" Character Copyright SQUARE ENIX CO. LTD. It seems possible that maybe Square's rights extended to the very-generic name they came up with for Mario RPG? Or maybe Nintendo just wanted a better name after they came up with the "Paper" concept. I don't know, I'm just speculating.
 
Sometimes developers can own the parts that they added to a franchise. Like, Rare created "Krystal" for the StarFox franchise, but if Rare hadn't given Krystal to Nintendo, Nintendo wouldn't have been able to use her in future StarFox games. And neither would Rare, for that matter. She would exist in limbo until Nintendo and Rare agreed to work together again and let her exist in the present reality (Rare avoided this situation by giving/selling Krystal to Nintendo).

Or, if Nintendo wanted to make a massively-superior remake of "Zelda: Wand of Gamelon", Nintendo would probably have to ask Phillips for permission. Phillips very broadly can't make any more Zelda games without Nintendo's permission, but Nintendo very narrowly can't make another Wand of Gamelon without Phillips.

"Geno" from Mario RPG had a small cameo in "Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga" (around the time Square and Nintendo patched things up), and the credits for the game say "Geno" Character Copyright SQUARE ENIX CO. LTD. It seems possible that maybe Square's rights extended to the very-generic name they came up with for Mario RPG? Or maybe Nintendo just wanted a better name after they came up with the "Paper" concept. I don't know, I'm just speculating.
I was under the impression that anything in SMRPG that wasn't based on an already existing element of the Mario series was in Squenix's hands, and not just Geno.
 
Sometimes developers can own the parts that they added to a franchise. Like, Rare created "Krystal" for the StarFox franchise, but if Rare hadn't given Krystal to Nintendo, Nintendo wouldn't have been able to use her in future StarFox games. And neither would Rare, for that matter. She would exist in limbo until Nintendo and Rare agreed to work together again and let her exist in the present reality (Rare avoided this situation by giving/selling Krystal to Nintendo).

Or, if Nintendo wanted to make a massively-superior remake of "Zelda: Wand of Gamelon", Nintendo would probably have to ask Phillips for permission. Phillips very broadly can't make any more Zelda games without Nintendo's permission, but Nintendo very narrowly can't make another Wand of Gamelon without Phillips.

"Geno" from Mario RPG had a small cameo in "Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga" (around the time Square and Nintendo patched things up), and the credits for the game say "Geno" Character Copyright SQUARE ENIX CO. LTD. It seems possible that maybe Square's rights extended to the very-generic name they came up with for Mario RPG? Or maybe Nintendo just wanted a better name after they came up with the "Paper" concept. I don't know, I'm just speculating.
Calling all Video Game Journalists - next time you interview Iwata you know what to ask. This needs to be settled!
 
Myamoto didn't want load times for a Mario game, so Nintendo went cartridge.

Square needed to go CD, so they went with Sony.

Basically the gist. I think any hard feelings were drawn from the fact they weren't going to work together anymore and were more on Nintendo's part towards Square.
 
Myamoto didn't want load times for a Mario game, so Nintendo went cartridge.

Square needed to go CD, so they went with Sony.

Basically the gist. I think any hard feelings were drawn from the fact they weren't going to work together anymore and were more on Nintendo's part towards Square.
They should have went with a 4x drive while everyone else has 2x drives. The Mario 64 DD prototype that was leaked didn't have bad loading times at all.
 
Myamoto didn't want load times for a Mario game, so Nintendo went cartridge.

Square needed to go CD, so they went with Sony.

Basically the gist. I think any hard feelings were drawn from the fact they weren't going to work together anymore and were more on Nintendo's part towards Square.
Sure, loading times on N64 were way better but that was the reason they told to the public only. The real reason was Nintendo didn't want to turn down the monopoly they had on those sweet sweet carts they made so much money from before.

An N64 cart cost a third party close to $15 each to produce and had to be ordered months in advance. A PS1 CD cost $1 and could be ordered and have them ready in a matter of days. And people still question why third parties flocked away so bad from the N64.

The N64 carts in reality firm consumer only had two real advantages: shorter loads and more durability. It's pretty clear that for the vast majority didn't care for this and preferred the CD advantages.
 
"I have been saying this for some time, but customers are not interested in grand games with higher-quality graphics and sound and epic stories.
Only people who do not know the videogame business would advocate the release of next-generation machines when people are not interested
in cutting-edge technologies" - Hiroshi Yamauchi

Yamauchi was an idiot. I wouldn't want to do business with him either.
 


Your so right, and 'blows my mind' that even today they refuse to do business with Nintendo over past business decision of using cartridges over cds. geesh.

But we all know things are never that simple.... are they?
That has nothing to do with salt, they just went where it made sense for them as a business. And how do they refuse to do business with Nintendo? Their most Important IP in Japan as been Nintendo exclusive for years now.