• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

"What's the big deal about Sin & Punishment?"

loosus

Banned
May 31, 2006
6,580
0
0
Teddman said:
Can anyone who's played both versions discuss the N64 pad control vs. the Wii's Classic Controller/GameCube pad controls?

I'd like to pick this up for convenience sake, so that I don't have to crack the N64 out of storage. But if the controls aren't dead-on (important in a twitch shooter), then I'll pass...
No idea about the Wii version at all, but I honestly didn't think the control was all that spectacular in the N64 version. :\ It wasn't laggy or anything, but I found it kinda awkward.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Dec 19, 2006
16,848
1
1,450
Atlanta, GA, USA
The only thing wrong with the N64 controls was the quality of the stick itself. Once you've worn yours out to the point where it's so loose, your gaming is bound to suffer with it. Everything else about the original control scheme was perfectly fine.

From what I'm hearing, the Classic Controller setups for this game work fine. The important thing is for aiming to be mapped to the sticks (analog) and movement to be mapped to either the d-pad or face buttons (digital) so that the game doesn't lose anything in transition. I'm pretty sure most of the VC schemes account for this.
 

Squeak

Member
Jun 9, 2004
2,052
0
0
Mejilan said:
I'm not one to rush and agree with Sapiens, but Squeak's contributions to this thread are the very definition of wrong. Wow.
Yeah I know, suggesting that it's possible to like S&P for its aesthetics. The nerve!

Again, until you can argue otherwise, I win.

Playing Sin and Punishment with the sound off is only playing it half. The music is really an integral important part of the experience.
 

Hydro_Alexis

Banned
Jun 3, 2005
2,364
0
1,245
AWESOME GAME played it years ago when a friend had it imported, only bad thing i can say is that the controls take a while for some to get used to.
 

Station42

Member
Apr 5, 2007
976
0
0
Italy
www.santaragione.com
past winter i replayed trough all the difficulty lvl with my roommate...just awesome...the wii vc version looks someway cleaner, doesn't it?

still remember that the first time took me sometime to understand the importance of the sword attack and that with normal target i was earning lots of more points than with auto. XD
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
Jun 9, 2004
38,484
0
0
42
NJ, USA
Yeah, auto-aim is a nasty crutch, for the most part. You do roughly 2x as much damage by leaving it on the free-aim reticle. And sword-reflecting missiles are a HUGE part of the strategy, both for taking out bosses, as well as hitting as many objects as possible. It's a bit part of the scoring meta-game.

Squeak said:
Yeah I know, suggesting that it's possible to like S&P for its aesthetics. The nerve!

Again, until you can argue otherwise, I win.

Alright. I didn't really want to do this, but fine. I never said that you couldn't like the game for its aesthetics, so don't put words in my mouth. You don't win that point.
I am, however, of the opinion that the game's strongest suit is BY FAR its gameplay. And unlike some, I'm not new to the game. I bought it about 6 years ago.

Playing Sin and Punishment with the sound off is only playing it half. The music is really an integral important part of the experience.

This is entirely subjective, and it isn't something that can be 'argued' or 'proven' to any degree. I'd say that for Rez, the music is a fairly large part of the experience. And clearly for any music rhythm game. But horrible music is never an 'integral' part of anything. That said, sounds should be kept up if only due to the audio cues for missile-reflecting swordplay. Actually, the game featured pretty great sound effects by the standards of the day.

Squeak said:
Wow, I didn't think it possible for a human to be so wrong...
I'm flabbergasted and don't know where to begin. :)

You start off by saying all of us are wrong, then follow up by suggesting that we can't state the same until we 'prove' it?

Well, first off the music is awesome.

Your opinion. It isn't shared by all. Or most. Or many, probably.

It might not be your style (which is completely beyond me)

By this very post I'm quoting in piecemeal, I'm not surprised that it's beyond you to consider that your opinion might not be universally shared.

but within its domain it's as good as it gets.

Yes, within the domain of 'suck', it's not the worst I've heard. And the Earth Mimicry battle theme is all kinds of awesome. But that's one song.

I've have a feeling that people who criticize this kind of music with the such scorn, really is secretly enjoying it and is just afraid to admit it to the supposedly "cool" side of themselves, that was raised on indie and "difficult listening" where the mantra is "if it sounds immediately good it's not worth your time".

I have no idea what the FUCK you're babbling about here. But it strengthens what I said above, about suggesting to me that you cannot reasonably consider that your opinion isn't universally shared.

And the porn music accusation is just ridiculous. Whether it has a similarity to some music heard in certain european porn flicks I don't know, but to write off an entire genre because of the arbitrary association with porn, is really unfair and stupid.

Who's writing off a genre? Just a couple of bad tunes... that happen to remind some of bad porn music.

This is synth-fusion at it's very best, combining classic electronic harmonies plucking at your heartstrings, with airy casual pop funk/jazz and the controlled aggressive energy of electric guitar.

Again, entirely subjective. Nothing here to 'argue' or 'prove'. That said, not only did I find the composition offensively bad, but even the synth is of terrible quality. Not even close to the N64's finest, as far as sound quality is concerned.

This is the kind of music that makes you feel like the greatest hero ever while playing.

Nah. Sounds like Eurotrash music (the kind I haven't heard in a game since the Genesis versions of Mortal Kombat) fused with the dregs of Skinemax softcore porn. Nothing heroic there, to my ears. For that, I'll listen to some awesome Falcom Rock, for example.

The graphics are a perfect example of art over technology.
In the same way a great artist can create works of great beauty with simple tools like a pencil and watercolours, or even black ink on white paper as in Japanese and Chinese calligraphy, this game works with the limitations and particularities of the available technology, instead of stubbornly pushing against them.
The style, which can best be described as shredded polygons, perfectly captures Suzuki's scrawly, sketchy style.

I don't think that the N64 was capable of too much more, not while maintaining the clip it did, but the texture work in this game was pretty horrific. Especially during the cinematics, which really had no business panning so close to any of the surfaces it did. The game was at its best when everything was moving quickly and shit was exploding everywhere. Anytime it slowed down, the graphics turned into blurry, pixelated mess. Special effects, however, were pretty fucking awesome.

The voice acting is bad in the good way and I have a strong feeling it's entirely on purpose.
It never grinds or becomes irritating, it always serves to give life and personality to the characters.

There's good VA, and then there's bad VA. S&P depicts some of the worst, and I refuse to believe that it was intentional. Saki and Brad were alright, but Achi, Airan, and especially Leda were horrible and cringe-worthy. If there's one thing I can say about it, is that the horrible quality early-anime-like dub at least matched the horribly nonsensical-anime plot.

The story while not a masterpiece of shakespearean writing (show me a game story that truly is) is nevertheless compelling enough in its own way, revealing hidden depths with every playthrough. What was at first confused and non sequitur, slowly makes a vague emblematic kind of sense.
And for those who don't know it, the game was originally called Glass Soldier during development, but the title was changed when a plot similarity to Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment was seen.
And as someone who has read the book, I have to say (without drawing any qualitative comparisons) it's not too far fetched.

Actually, Glass Soldier is even displayed as part of the credits scroll, IIRC. The game's story and characters play out like some of the worst 80s/early 90s anime I've ever seen... with a dub-quality to match.

I wholeheartedly recommend Sin and Punishment, in every aspect. It's one of the four best games ever made for the platform and the greatest railshooter ever.

Hell yes. Fantastic level and shooter design married to solid competent and excellent replay factor. A testament to absolutely magnificent gameplay, IMHO. But to make it out as an amazing aural experience wrapped around clever prose? Hell no. IMHO, of course.
 

mr jones

Ethnicity is not a race!
Dec 4, 2004
5,611
2
1,590
Minnesota
CO_Andy said:
Will i have to buy a CC controller for this game?

Unless you have a wavebird/gamecube controller, yes you will.

I'm assuming that a wavebird will be excellent for this game. I can imagine how movement to the left and right will be handled by the C-stick. This is gonna be great. I have the JPN N64 version - I'm really hyped about having a translated version.

As others have said in this tread: C'mon Nintendo. I want to give you money.

So... I wonder if they'll release Bangaioh if Sin & Punishment does well?
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
Jun 9, 2004
38,484
0
0
42
NJ, USA
mr jones said:
I'm assuming that a wavebird will be excellent for this game. I can imagine how movement to the left and right will be handled by the C-stick. This is gonna be great.

Double tapping on an analog stick to roll won't be fun. You're better off leaving the movement mapped to buttons, IMHO.
 

mr jones

Ethnicity is not a race!
Dec 4, 2004
5,611
2
1,590
Minnesota
Mejilan said:
Double tapping on an analog stick to roll won't be fun. You're better off leaving the movement mapped to buttons, IMHO.

The C-stick is small enough that double taps shouldn't be that rough. Otherwise I'd have to map the movement to the B and X buttons.

We'll see. If it wasn't for Halo and Metroid, I'd be fiending for a release date of this.
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
Jun 9, 2004
38,484
0
0
42
NJ, USA
In my experience, mapping digital actions to analog controls rarely works out. Can we even map S&P? I think there are 2 or 3 presets, and that's it.
 

mr jones

Ethnicity is not a race!
Dec 4, 2004
5,611
2
1,590
Minnesota
Mejilan said:
In my experience, mapping digital actions to analog controls rarely works out. Can we even map S&P? I think there are 2 or 3 presets, and that's it.

Are you serious???

I never really bothered looking; Mario 64 and Starfox 64 are the only VC games I've dl'ed, and they're mapped pretty well. That's pretty wack if you can't customize your control setup.

There's something to be said about PC emulation... :|
 

Zeed

Banned
Apr 23, 2006
8,122
0
0
Since this is the closest thing to an official thread S&P has right now, I'd like to say that I'm mostly enjoying the game right now, but the controls are ruining it for me. I'm playing on a Wavebird with Control Type 1. If anyone can recommend a smoother alternative I'd love to hear it - right now it just feels so busy and unintuitive.

If any game would work better with Wii controls, it'd be this.

Also, how do you beat Radan?
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
Jun 9, 2004
38,484
0
0
42
NJ, USA
Holy SHIT the game looks WAY better on the Wii with component than on the N64 with S-video! And I know it's not that I'm not remembering the N64 game right, since I just played and beat it a few days ago!

Classic controller + Type C controls IS WHERE IT'S AT, FOLKS! With inverted controls, of course.

Is Radan the dog?

Sword is the only way to go there. Dodge the beams it charges up, then slash with your sword again and again until you knock it into the pit for massive damage. Repeat as necessary.
 

Zeed

Banned
Apr 23, 2006
8,122
0
0
Mejilan said:
Classic controller + Type C controls IS WHERE IT'S AT, FOLKS! With inverted controls, of course.
Looks like I'm gonna have to go buy a Classic Controller then.

Sword is the only way to go there. Dodge the beams it charges up, then slash with your sword again and again until you knock it into the pit for massive damage. Repeat as necessary.
I had a feeling that was it, but I forgot how to use the sword. Damn these controls!