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[L Thammy]

This thread is specifically about the history of these sorts of characters, including their common features and how they came to their modern form. I guess they aren't specifically a video game thing, but for those of us who like Japanese video games, it seems like they're becoming a more prominent feature for whatever reason.

If you're just going to post about whether you like or dislike these character types, please don't. That's not what this thread is about. Feel free to make another thread. If you're going to post something like "because pedophiles", well okay, but can you be more specific? Can we isolate a point where they became a viable market to target?



Don't know a ton about this myself because I don't watch modern anime, but I'll try to start this off:

Supposedly the moe aesthetic comes out of shoujo manga. The first few shoujo manga were made by men, but I think that they're mostly made by women for an audience of young girls. The shoujo look often involved detailed art with elaborate clothes, which you see in loli goth characters and the like now.

Then at some point, companies started to realize that guys watch these series too, and they tried to expand their appeal. I can't seem to dig it out now, but I remember reading somewhere that this is why Sailor Moon was how it was. The idea of a team of multi-coloured warriors that fought a monster every week was Toei's way of selling the show to guys, inspired by their own Super Sentai (which was already popular with that demographic). But the primary audience for the show was still younger girls.

And then later you ended up with stuff like Nanoha, which takes on the aesthetic while being an action series for an older male audience. I've heard that part of the shift is due to the Windows reboot of the Touhou Project franchise, which sexualizes the girls while using shoujo-like designs. Although maybe it's the Touhou fans to blame if that's true, since fan works are are so big with that franchise.

And then... well, that's actually all that I've read on the subject. Are there are anime historians here that know better?

 

[L33T]

Japan.

 

[alr1ght]

dirty minds

 

[sixteen-bit]

Here's an academic article on moe
http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/articles/2009/Galbraith.html

 

[L Thammy]

Japan.

How did I not see that one coming?

 

[Wensih]

Loli, at least the name, comes from the novel Lolita where a middle-age man abducts and rapes a 13 year old girl for a span of time. The unreliable narrator, the middle-aged man, who is defending himself at a trial at the beginning describes the girl as the suductress and paints her out to be a sexy nymph. Not sure where Moe comes from.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

Clarisse from the Castle of Cagliostro.

Remember that Miyazaki had a crush on the heroine of White Snake when he was younger, was a fan of Pippi Longstocking, and feature strong young girls in his works since Dobutsu Takarajima (which is one of the greatest movies from the golden age of Toei by the way).

 

[CrazyDude]

40 year sexually repressed men.

 

[NormalFish]

I can't give you the specific, historical answer you're looking for, but I'll offer my take.

Anime and Manga are super trendy. Because the industry is mostly pushed by serialized issues of the comics, there's a lot to be gained by either finding a specific niche or following in the footsteps of a successful author. Because of this, you get some rather tidal changes to the Anime/Manga formula (things come and go, essentially). Given this, I'd think that the archetypes you're referring to probably met success in a few Anime/Manga and took off. If I had to guess, it's probably related to the young demographics of the mediums, and the popularity of coming of age stories. When your whole cast is young students, and you want to appeal to a broad, hormonal audience (and we all know sex sells), you're in a weird spot.

Inversely, I don't think it'll last much longer one way or another.

Will be interesting to see what the origins of the trope are.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Japan.

i was hoping for this.

 

[Sylverstone14]

"Moe used in slang refers to feelings of affection, adoration, devotion, and excitement felt towards characters that appear in manga, anime, or video games."

Loli / lolicon / lolita complex, "Japanese discourse or media focusing on the attraction to young or prepubescent girls.Outside Japan, lolicon is in less common usage and usually refers to the genre. The term is a reference to Vladimir Nabokov's book Lolita, in which a middle-aged man becomes sexually obsessed with a twelve-year-old girl."

Just skimming from Wikipedia.

 

[Drencrom]

How did I not see that one coming?

Never underestimate the first post™

 

[PillarEN]

From kawaii seeking people.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Loli, at least the name, comes from the novel Lolita where a middle-age man abducts and rapes a 13 year old girl for a span of time. The narrator, the middle-aged man, describes the girl as the suductress and paints her out to be a sexy nymph. Not sure where Moe comes from.

I assumed that was just common knowledge.

 

[Drencrom]

Why is this in the gaming section?

 

[FlyingSaucer]

Why is this in the gaming section?

Because JRPGs.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Loli, at least the name, comes from the novel Lolita where a middle-age man abducts and rapes a 13 year old girl for a span of time. The unreliable narrator, the middle-aged man, who is defending himself at a trial at the beginning describes the girl as the suductress and paints her out to be a sexy nymph. Not sure where Moe comes from.

dude should've just stuck with 2D

 

[L Thammy]

I assumed that was just common knowledge.

Yeah, I think the word itself is one of those things that anime fans just know. Like mecha, sama, sempai, baka, doujin, hentai, yaoi, bara, fujoshi, seme, uke, or chikan.

 

[Wensih]

I assumed that was just common knowledge.

While a notorious novel, I'm not sure if it would be common knowledge. It's not really a novel you would come across unless in a literature course in college. Kubrick's and Lyne's adaptations are pretty dated now, and I'm not sure people are flocking to read or watch it due to the subject matter.

 

[yanipheonu]

Moe is interesting because it's one of those words like umami that doesn't have a direct translation.

Closest I've seen is describing it is like the feeling you have when you find your sister or sibling is cute. It's not sexual, even if they are dressed provocatively, it's more a sense of cuteness.

Lolicon... Is basically just one step removed from pedophilia let's be honest. Suppose it's not hurting anyone if it's art though.

 

[erpg]

Yeah, I think the word itself is one of those things that anime fans just know. Like mecha, sama, sempai, baka, doujin, hentai, yaoi, bara, fujoshi, seme, uke, or chikan.

Whoa, those terms took quite a turn there.

 

[Paracelsus]

From kawaii seeking people.

Someone once asked me what it was, I told them

Ever seen people going awwww when looking at video with cute kittens/puppies? In a way, moe reminds of that, but with anime characters

That's why in my view kemonomimi (animal features on humans) is a huge cornerstone of moe.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Yeah, I think the word itself is one of those things that anime fans just know. Like mecha, sama, sempai, baka, doujin, hentai, yaoi, bara, fujoshi, seme, uke, or chikan.

okay I tuned out after yaoi, ramped the difficulty up a bit too fast. Like most people know sempai but much fewer know kouhai. People might know onii and maybe onee but fewer the difference between that and Aniki, Aniue.

Japanese have tags for literally everything though.

While a notorious novel, I'm not sure if it would be common knowledge. It's not really a novel you would come across unless in a literature course in college. Kubrick's and Lyne's adaptations are pretty dated now, and I'm not sure people are flocking to read or watch it due to the subject matter.

haven't read it either but Lolitas, dressing like stylized version of little kids, are a very real and weird thing.

 

[Inuhanyou]

One thing to remember OP(and a lot of folks make this mistake(

Generally "MOE" has gotten confused for the "kawaii", cute girl design archetype, when "moe" as a term can mean anything palatable to a select audience in terms of archetypal characterization, and it settled on, in the modern context being what we know commonly see in anime.

I blame Kyoani generally speaking with populaizing what we now see as that. WIth their adaptions of Kanon, Clannad, Lucky Star, Haruhi, K-On! Ect.

Those types of series(as well as series like Oreimo) essentially popularizing the Otaku demographic, until they were really the only ones that were catered to in modern days.

And it took over the brains of literally anyone who chased after a crazed audience when designing media, and here we are.

 

[Ivan Amiibo]

named after some species of Galapagosian chicken


/sentences you didn't know you'd write two days ago

 

[Wensih]

haven't read it either but Lolitas, dressing like stylized version of little kids, are a very real and weird thing.

It's a very good book in the same way that Requiem for a Dream is a very good movie. It's subject matter is detestable, but it's done with master craftsmanship. There's a reason that Nabokov has multiple novels in top 100 essential reading lists.

It's a weird book that has permeated pop-culture--Lana Del Ray frequently quotes the book in multiple songs, and I'm not sure if they understood that the book has an unreliable narrator who rapes a child or are duped into believing the fairytale version that Humbert is telling.

 

[Mostmanlyman]

They come from hell

Spoiler

/s

 

[John Kowalski]

i thought it was shoujo too

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Well, its kind of an extension of historical (and still rather unfortunate) interests in pre-pubescent figures, which can be down to full on paedophilia, but also involves idealisations of purity, innocence, etc.

Japan's made something of a particular artistic trend of things over the decades however, or at least, visibly enough compared to other cultures so as to be of note. Visible sexualisation has been increasingly present in anime and manga since Go Nagai came along, which then further coupled with an increasing idealisation of youth in Japanese fiction (there is a reason so many series are set around high school), means that sexualisation of minors is kind of a default, with lolicon as an adjusted end of how far one can push it. Often times the archetype is used to be in some way 'subversive' ("The powerful leader is a child!""They look ten but they're actually ten thousand!""You think she would be innocent and pure, but she's a killing machine!", but still retains the fact that visually, they are a child, which yes, still appeals to certain interests.

As for why moe's taken off especially, that's both an artistic trend, but also a commercial one. For better or worse, it sells, whether its to extremely niche but dedicated audiences (who can also be drawn in to pay for subscription channels, merchandise, expensive blu-ray sets, etc), or to wider audience appeal by creating a young and attractive 'face' to what might otherwise be a more mundane but relatively accessible product (see: the idol anime boom). So of course, many artists try to make either themselves more palatable to companies and audiences, or end up pursuing it themselves since its presently an idealised style within various communities.

 

[Enter the Dragon Punch]

 

[vypek]

Loli, at least the name, comes from the novel Lolita where a middle-age man abducts and rapes a 13 year old girl for a span of time. The unreliable narrator, the middle-aged man, who is defending himself at a trial at the beginning describes the girl as the suductress and paints her out to be a sexy nymph. Not sure where Moe comes from.

This is what I thought it was. Loli coming from that Russian novel. I never have seen a definition or supposed origin for moe.

 

[Frog-fu]

People that belong on watch lists.

 

[Hitlersaurus Christ]

Hell

 

[PataHikari]

Nothing in touhou canon is particularly sexualized.

Fans make porn of anything, so blaming Touhou for fanporn is a bit silly.

 

[Tesseract]

pedophiles

 

[lazygecko]

I can't give you the specific, historical answer you're looking for, but I'll offer my take.

Anime and Manga are super trendy. Because the industry is mostly pushed by serialized issues of the comics, there's a lot to be gained by either finding a specific niche or following in the footsteps of a successful author. Because of this, you get some rather tidal changes to the Anime/Manga formula (things come and go, essentially). Given this, I'd think that the archetypes you're referring to probably met success in a few Anime/Manga and took off. If I had to guess, it's probably related to the young demographics of the mediums, and the popularity of coming of age stories. When your whole cast is young students, and you want to appeal to a broad, hormonal audience (and we all know sex sells), you're in a weird spot.

Inversely, I don't think it'll last much longer one way or another.

Will be interesting to see what the origins of the trope are.

The proliferation of it over the course of the 21st century has to do with the increasingly insular nature of the medium and the contraction of the market. Japan has been in a constant recession since the mid 90's, and overall Japanese consumers don't really buy all that much stuff any more, with the big exception of the Otaku culture whose entire lifestyle revolves around the constant consumption of this media and merchandise. Thus, it has become more profitable to be laser-focused on that niche instead of going for mass market appeal.

In a way, it almost mirrors the American comic book industry largely abandoning conventional genres (comics used to be much more like other mediums with plenty of magazines centered around action, horror, teenage drama, etc) and focusing more and more on catering to the superhero fanbase.

 

[The Technomancer]

Can I rant about this here? I think its important that we draw a distinction between "loli" and "chibi", which is a confusion that I see come up occasionally. As someone who appreciated chibi from a design perspective I don't think its fair to lump it in with the more explicitly loli style.

This is chibi:

This is loli:

Spoiler

Get it right damnit

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

I assumed that was just common knowledge.

Why would that be common knowledge? Thats some nasty nasty shit.

 

[PillarEN]

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The proliferation of it over the course of the 21st century has to do with the increasingly insular nature of the medium and the contraction of the market. Japan has been in a constant recession since the mid 90's, and overall Japanese consumers don't really buy all that much stuff any more, with the big exception of the Otaku culture whose entire lifestyle revolves around the constant consumption of this media and merchandise. Thus, it has become more profitable to be laser-focused on that niche instead of going for mass market appeal.

In a way, it almost mirrors the American comic book industry largely abandoning conventional genres (comics used to be much more like other mediums with plenty of magazines centered around action, horror, teenage drama, etc) and focusing more and more on catering to the superhero fanbase.

It's awful really every week there must be a new LN with a boy transferring to a new school coincidentally picking a fight with the resident tsundere fire mage, then deciding to help her in her cause. Then over the next volumes adding 1 hot chick of every conceivable fetish to his group after the other.

Why would that be common knowledge? Thats some nasty nasty shit.

it's a classic. Stanley Kubrick made a movie about it

 

[TheChaos0]

You can blame Tomoe Hotaru from Sailor Moon and then Rei from Evangelion for giving birth to moe. Although, I'd imagine proto moe characters existed even earlier, Lum from Urusai Yatsura, for example. No one really knows the true origin of the term though, at least I don't.

For lolita characters you can probably blame Lewis Carroll and his Alice in Wonderland. Probably. At the very least it can be one of the roots. Alice in Wonderland was very popular in Japan, over the time the imagery of Alice slowly mutated in what we have today.

 

[pizzacat]

They all come platinum games

 

[Enter the Dragon Punch]

i hate k-on so much.

 

[PillarEN]

i hate k-on so much.

I loooooove K-On!

 

[Rembrandt]

Whoa, those terms took quite a turn there.

Lmaooo, you're real.

 

[super-famicom]

Japan.

I knew this was going to be posted.

 

[The Technomancer]

One thing to remember OP(and a lot of folks make this mistake(

Generally "MOE" has gotten confused for the "kawaii", cute girl design archetype, when "moe" as a term can mean anything palatable to a select audience in terms of archetypal characterization, and it settled on, in the modern context being what we know commonly see in anime.

I blame Kyoani generally speaking with populaizing what we now see as that. WIth their adaptions of Kanon, Clannad, Lucky Star, Haruhi, K-On! Ect.

Those types of series(as well as series like Oreimo) essentially popularizing the Otaku demographic, until they were really the only ones that were catered to in modern days.

And it took over the brains of literally anyone who chased after a crazed audience when designing media, and here we are.

Its a tricky thing. With a term as new as moe the meaning has been evolving rapidly. When I first saw moe being thrown around several years ago it was sort of akin to the idea of a fetish, although without as explicit sexual overtones, it was like "having a thing for girls with glasses". But these days it is specifically centered on cute girls and importantly almost always cute innocent (in affect or in reality) girls, which is where things have gotten progressively skeevier from where I sit. People try to argue that the term still isn't sexual and...I suppose that's true, in that everyone who's into moe stuff isn't into the sexual side of it, but there is something almost universally posessive about what I perceive of it. It reminds me of the darker side of idol culture

 

[Paracelsus]

Can I rant about this here? I think its important that we draw a distinction between "loli" and "chibi", which is a confusion that I see come up occasionally. As someone who appreciated chibi from a design perspective I don't think its fair to lump it in with the more explicitly loli style.

This is chibi:

http://www.picgifs.com/graphics/c/chibi/graphics-chibi-005117.png[IMG]
This is loli:

[SPOILER]Get it right damnit[/SPOILER][/QUOTE]

Chibi is somewhat part of moe. Grisaia can be called a moege (despite the heavy mood in some routes) and chibi plays a role in that.

[QUOTE][IMG]http://abload.de/img/moec3pte.jpg

 

[Enter the Dragon Punch]

Chibi is somewhat part of moe. Grisaia can be called a moege (despite the heavy mood in some routes) and chibi plays a role in that.

actually it can be called "kusoge"

 

[Hugstable]

lol what does this have to do with gaming?