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Where do you stand on federal legalization of all recreational drugs?

DragoonKain

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I can see the argument from both sides. Many people argue it will significantly cut down on cartels and/or gangs because it would essentially take away their business when people can legally and freely buy drugs, the cartels will no longer have a business purpose anymore, and in turn it would cut down on nationwide violence and gang activity,

However, and this is my argument against that: legal repercussions is a major deterrent in many people using hardcore drugs, Artie Lang was on Rogan's podcast recently and he himself said the concern of him going to jail is one of the main reasons why he's been clean for the longest time in his life in decades. So the amount of drug-addicted people in this country would rise rather significantly, and drug-addicted people are desperate, dangerous, unpredictable, and that alone could cause a rise in crime that would cancel out any potential declining gang activity, and also lead to more impoverished neighborhoods since more drug-addicted people means more people blowing all their money on drugs, which would in turn lead to more shitty and run down neighborhoods.

I give both sides of the argument major credence, but I just don't think federal legalization of drugs would do enough good to outweigh the bad. Drugs literally change people. They can turn good, honest people into desperate, dangerous criminals who would even kill for that fix.

But a lot of people... I know Joe Rogan, Colin Moriarty, Tim Pool(I believe) among others all support federal legalization and they think it would do a lot of good. Where do you stand on this?
 
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Tesseract

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a slow rolling tide of trial balloon states seems adequate

decriminalize, then medicalize(?), then recreational-ize, then observe various stats as the experiment runs

i think we need more over counter painkillers tho, excedrin and ibuprofen just doesn't work well for people like me
 
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Super Mario

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Terrible idea. The premise lies on that crime will go away when stuff like Marijuana is legalized. It ignores the very thing that gets the cartels up in the morning. Money and power. When you take that away, they won't just vanish. They won't carry their passion for marijuana into working a 9-5 for a marijuana corporation. They will pickup new trades like harder drugs or human trafficking. The cartels stay. We still will have drug activity. People will still be trying whatever is new and hip.

Maybe we can deal with marijuana. Even though it's going to lead into having to smell that crap, more impaired accidents, and more losers always being high. Sure alcohol is similar, stay woke. But legalizing all drugs is just preposterous. We don't need anymore homeless, druggie, victims filling up our streets. Some drugs need to be met with death penalty for dealing.
 
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sahlberg

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This has already been tested so we know what it will lead to. The data is available.

Look at the Market street and other areas in SF. Open heroin use is tolerated. No one bats an eye and cops just look the other way.
9th and Market, or around the Civic area are great places to see what happens.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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Does anyone happen to know why the USA enacted prohibition?

Even though I disagree with its reasons, it wasn't just because some angry women hated alcohol. Rather, they hated how widespread alcohol had become, how it drained the household finances, how it turned husbands into wreckers, and how its overuse brought down communities. From their perspective, it made sense to ban the substance at the root of all these problems. It was a (short sighted) compromise to address a very real problem of the era.

Would anyone here like to deal with heroin and meth junkies wandering around their neighborhoods? Would anyone here enjoy their health insurances going up because these destructive drugs are now legal?

I'm a practical person. There's clearly a benefit to restricting some of these substances from general usage. There are objective, physiological effects when a drug user becomes addicted to their substance of choice. "I can quit anytime, and besides it's legal" is meaningless if their heroin cravings have pushed them into a life of crime to fund the habit.
 

pennythots

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decriminalization sure, legalization no.

opioids are no fucking joke, meth is no fucking joke, cocaine is no fucking joke. if 40k people a year died doing extreme sports do people think business would continue as usual? people would be raising awareness, politicians would be mulling over mandatory training and licensing, no one but lulbertarians would be out there saying you have the absolute right to destroy yourself and your local environment just for freedom's sake.

no one should ever go to jail for simply using a product, ever. all you're doing is turning an amateur criminal into a professional one. the ruthless stance on hard drugs has been as destructive as hard drugs themselves and if my taxes are going to clothing, feeding and sheltering a guy for months or years at a time I want him to come out of that time as a better person and productive citizen, not as someone who will be put back into the system time and time again.
 

DragoonKain

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I should have said decriminalization, that’s my fault, that’s a much more debated issue, although some think it should be totally legalized as well.
 

Grinchy

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Artie Lang was on Rogan's podcast recently and he himself said the concern of him going to jail is one of the main reasons why he's been clean for the longest time in his life in decades.
He's been using heroin and other drugs for decades. The only reason jail is finally putting that fear into him is because he was caught with the drugs for the 20th time and he got a really lenient sentence that allows him to avoid jail time.

It just feels like a bad example to point to a guy who has been a drug addict for most of his life and say that jail time was a deterrent to him doing drugs. The illegality did not deter him until he was caught (a million fucking times).

I don't think the deterrent works at all. We have plenty of examples to point to (like Prohibition) that show that making something illegal does not make someone want it less. If anything, it makes them want it more. If heroin was legal, I'd never buy it. The same goes for basically all drugs other than weed. I'd snort a line of coke in Vegas or something, but for the most part, legal drugs wouldn't change my life at all.
 
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Burnttips

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Weed is ok.
mushrooms is not something I think they should do. Some types of mushrooms are way more potent than lsd.
The others should be seen as they are now.
 

DragoonKain

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He's been using heroin and other drugs for decades. The only reason jail is finally putting that fear into him is because he was caught with the drugs for the 20th time and he got a really lenient sentence that allows him to avoid jail time.

It just feels like a bad example to point to a guy who has been a drug addict for most of his life and say that jail time was a deterrent to him doing drugs. The illegality did not deter him until he was caught (a million fucking times).

I don't think the deterrent works at all. We have plenty of examples to point to (like Prohibition) that show that making something illegal does not make someone want it less. If anything, it makes them want it more. If heroin was legal, I'd never buy it. The same goes for basically all drugs other than weed. I'd snort a line of coke in Vegas or something, but for the most part, legal drugs wouldn't change my life at all.
Well I think Artie Lang's celebrity status allowed him to avoid significant ramifications, and by that point he was already a full-blown addict. I don't think legalities will be effective at deterring people who are already addicts, but I think it is a significant one for people who are first-timers or people who have been addicts, but are sober.

That's a big reason I never tried drugs when I was young, I didn't wanna get in trouble with the law or at home. Was that the only reason? No, but I do think there are people out there to where if there were no criminal penalties they'd have more incentive and less to consider.
 

Rentahamster

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Sure why not. The negative externalities of drug enforcement seem worse than the abuse. And that's the key word, abuse, not use.

As long as you're not hurting anyone else, according to the freedom - centric philosophy of the USA's founding, I don't see why it should be punished.

Observe the data, see what works and what doesn't. If it gets out of hand, then adjust the law accordingly.
 

AaronB

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Would you pay $40,000 a year to lock someone up for using drugs, if that was their only crime?

Do you think you would have the right to do so?
 

sahlberg

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I vote no on "legalize all drugs".

I worked in SF, 9th and Market.
All drugs, including heroin is basically legal there. You have person shooting up on horse in open street at lunch time just in front of cops and they just walk past (because the mayor will fire them if they intervene).


You just have to trust me on this. Legalize all types of hard drugs has been tested and it does not work out well.
 

FMXVII

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Decriminalize the use.

Ratchet up the punishment for selling.

Get the shit off the streets.

Educate the New Millenials.

Also: Start making punishment a corrective thing, and start rehabilitating criminals, giving them the fresh slate that they are supposed to have after serving their time, so that they might flourish as members of and thus contribute to society. Win-win, yo. Read Foucault.
 
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Mohonky

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However, and this is my argument against that: legal repercussions is a major deterrent in many people using hardcore drugs, Artie Lang was on Rogan's podcast recently and he himself said the concern of him going to jail is one of the main reasons why he's been clean for the longest time in his life in decades.
It's really not.

I used to take shit every weekend or at least every other weekend; all my friends did, all the people around me at the clubs and raves did. That it was illegal didn't do shit from stopping anyone from doing it, it just made it a lot sketchier in terms of knowing exactly what you were getting.

At big music festivals in Australia, particularly Sydney, they started putting sniffer dogs at the entrance. All it did was drive up over doses or people flipping out and running emergency services off their feet because instead of not bringing drugs, they just took all of them at once so they wouldn't get caught in possession of them. The Government is still doing the whole 'if we allow pill testing at events it'll just encourage their use' meanwhile young adults are dying because they are getting pills full of shit other than what they thought was MDMA.

Better to have some sort of control of what is out there and it's consumption. Trying to stop people from doing it is a never ending money sink.
 
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I have supported marijuana legalization for hears, even knowing the DOT will never allow me to use it regardless of legality. People peddling opioids to kids deserve the rope, because they're not worth a bullet.
 

Rentahamster

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I vote no on "legalize all drugs".

I worked in SF, 9th and Market.
All drugs, including heroin is basically legal there. You have person shooting up on horse in open street at lunch time just in front of cops and they just walk past (because the mayor will fire them if they intervene).


You just have to trust me on this. Legalize all types of hard drugs has been tested and it does not work out well.
That's not a legalization problem. That's a we don't know how to properly house and care for the poor and mentally ill, we don't know how to provide drug treatment to addicts, and we don't know how to enforce the public safety laws problem.
 

DESTROYA

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Marijuana is one thing, but some of that other shit is just scary.
decriminalization sure, legalization no.

opioids are no fucking joke, meth is no fucking joke, cocaine is no fucking joke. if 40k people a year died doing extreme sports do people think business would continue as usual? people would be raising awareness, politicians would be mulling over mandatory training and licensing, no one but lulbertarians would be out there saying you have the absolute right to destroy yourself and your local environment just for freedom's sake.

no one should ever go to jail for simply using a product, ever. all you're doing is turning an amateur criminal into a professional one. the ruthless stance on hard drugs has been as destructive as hard drugs themselves and if my taxes are going to clothing, feeding and sheltering a guy for months or years at a time I want him to come out of that time as a better person and productive citizen, not as someone who will be put back into the system time and time again.
Weed is ok.
mushrooms is not something I think they should do. Some types of mushrooms are way more potent than lsd.
The others should be seen as they are now.
I vote no on "legalize all drugs".

I worked in SF, 9th and Market.
All drugs, including heroin is basically legal there. You have person shooting up on horse in open street at lunch time just in front of cops and they just walk past (because the mayor will fire them if they intervene).


You just have to trust me on this. Legalize all types of hard drugs has been tested and it does not work out well.
Spot on guys.
 

Rentahamster

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Some food for thought. These are the results of Portugal's decriminalization effort.


The opioid crisis soon stabilised, and the ensuing years saw dramatic drops in problematic drug use, HIV and hepatitis infection rates, overdose deaths, drug-related crime and incarceration rates. HIV infection plummeted from an all-time high in 2000 of 104.2 new cases per million to 4.2 cases per million in 2015. The data behind these changes has been studied and cited as evidence by harm-reduction movements around the globe. It’s misleading, however, to credit these positive results entirely to a change in law.


Portugal’s remarkable recovery, and the fact that it has held steady through several changes in government – including conservative leaders who would have preferred to return to the US-style war on drugs – could not have happened without an enormous cultural shift, and a change in how the country viewed drugs, addiction – and itself. In many ways, the law was merely a reflection of transformations that were already happening in clinics, in pharmacies and around kitchen tables across the country. The official policy of decriminalisation made it far easier for a broad range of services (health, psychiatry, employment, housing etc) that had been struggling to pool their resources and expertise, to work together more effectively to serve their communities.
In 1998, Goulão was on the panel of experts who recommended a shift in the country’s approach. “We realized we were squandering resources,” he told Fonseca. “It made much more sense for us to treat drug addicts as patients who needed help, not as criminals.” Police could concentrate on traffickers and dealers, freeing up resources for the government to invest in treatment and harm reduction practices. A 2015 study found that since Portugal approved the new national strategy in 1999 that led to decriminalization, the per capita social cost of drug misuse decreased by 18%. And according to a report by the Drug Policy Alliance, a New York-based nonprofit with the goal of ending America’s “War on Drugs,” the percentage of people in prison in Portugal for drug law violations has decreased dramatically, from 44% in 1999 to 24% in 2013.
We need a cultural shift.
 

OSC

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I give both sides of the argument major credence, but I just don't think federal legalization of drugs would do enough good to outweigh the bad. Drugs literally change people. They can turn good, honest people into desperate, dangerous criminals who would even kill for that fix.

But a lot of people... I know Joe Rogan, Colin Moriarty, Tim Pool(I believe) among others all support federal legalization and they think it would do a lot of good. Where do you stand on this?
Decriminalization, and possibly legalization. The reason cartels have hit men, illegal guns, and gangs is because they can't go to the actual police and need their own private form of property and contract enforcement, their own private 'police'. If drugs can be legally sold, all that goes away with legal competition, and it is doubtful things like human trafficking will compensate for the disappearance of the drug market.

Lone careless individuals who do drugs, will be caught if they resort to a life of crime.

Smoking causes cancer and kills people, it even hurts the health of bystanders, especially children, yet it is legal. Campaigns against smoking and taxation have reduced smoking in the population. Similar could be done about legalized drugs. Would most informed adults engage in drug use? doubtful. Regarding minors there could be severe penalties for enticing them, marketing to them or providing them with such.

As for the individuals that when informed still make the bad decision and resort to crime? Better law enforcement should result in them being caught.
o a life of crime to fund the habit.
only if they're not caught. Stealing again and again will cause them to get caught, especially if they're desperate and careless.

All drugs, including heroin is basically legal there. You have person shooting up on horse in open street at lunch time just in front of cops and they just walk past (because the mayor will fire them if they intervene).
It is implicitly legal but not truly legal, you don't have real companies selling drugs, thus no real competition for the drug dealers. Also doubt anyone trafficking drugs can go to the police if there's any issue such as someone not paying them or someone stealing the drugs, they still need gangs to enforce their property rights.
 
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JordanN

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I've said it before, but I rather just create an enclave where are all the druggies can just get together and they can inject themselves with whatever chemicals they want.

Just keep them away from the rest of society.
 
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daveonezero

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I’ll take it a step further. I’m anti war. That includes the war on drugs.

Also it should be taxed and regulated like they tax and regulate tomatoes.

Basically none.

Decriminalized, free to transact.
 
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daveonezero

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I've said it before, but I rather just create an enclave where are all the druggies can just get together and they can inject themselves with whatever chemicals they want.

Just keep them away from the rest of society.
It’s called a house. And then a good neighborhood.

It’s your fault if you have people shooting up in either one with drugs you don’t like.

Move out of the downtown cities. A vast majority (99% of surface area) of the world doesn’t have this problem.
 
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JordanN

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It’s called a house. And then a good neighborhood.

It’s your fault if you have people shooting up in either one with drugs you don’t like.

Move out of the downtown cities. A vast majority (99% of surface area) of the world doesn’t have this problem.
How is it my fault?

And I can't be in a house 24/7. Watch any video from Vancouver or NYC and these drug addicts are a nuisance. If they want to be on mind changing chemicals, they should do so in their own territory away from normal people just trying to go about their day.


I've also had to work next to people who were on hard drugs, and while they mostly left me alone, it generally ruined productivity. Their lifestyle just isn't compatible with the rest of society. I wont punish them for just grabbing something off the shelf and putting in their body, but I also don't want to reward them for it when they decide to overdose and go to the hospital either.

And even though smoking is legal, we still have laws or regulations that bar them from doing it in certain areas. I would like to see the same thing applied for all other drugs.
 
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Mar 18, 2018
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This has already been tested so we know what it will lead to. The data is available.

Look at the Market street and other areas in SF. Open heroin use is tolerated. No one bats an eye and cops just look the other way.
9th and Market, or around the Civic area are great places to see what happens.
Not really. America and her cities are hardly monolithic. Things tolerated by the people of SF do not represent the rest of society.
 

Sub_Level

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Legalize Pot ages 21 and older.
Decriminalize Shrooms and LSD ages 21 and older.

If you get caught doing psychadellics you are probably using them irresponsibly. So I'd still keep them illegal, but as a civil offense.
 
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TheGreatYosh

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Legalize Pot ages 21 and older.
Decriminalize Shrooms and LSD ages 21 and older.

If you get caught doing psychadellics you are probably using them irresponsibly. So I'd still keep them illegal, but as a civil offense.
I agree, but I would make it 25.

Most drugs I would ban, and execute all dealers.
 
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Gashtronomy

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The world is fucked and full of cunts. Legalise everything and sell it at a local shop.

Let's get on with wiping each other out already. We need to thin the population.
 
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bigedole

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I don't know which drugs fall under the categorization of recreational, but assuming the intent is lighter stuff like weed/shrooms, I am in favor of legalizing it and treating it the same way we treat cigarettes.

In terms of what age, I think there are a lot of things I find hypocritical about current age limits/restrictions in the US. Like, if you're old enough to be forcibly drafted and sent to war, I would say you're old enough to drink alcohol/get high. I hope my children are smart enough to not do that shit at all, or at least wait until their brains are fully developed at 25+, but 18 is the age we've decided to draw the line of adulthood at, so I don't think it's fair to take half measures.
 

AV

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Decriminalize everything. If an adult wants to get messed up in the comfort of their own home that's none of my fucking business. Doesn't mean it needs to be on the streets or in stores. There's a balance to be struck.

The "war on drugs" is a preposterous ongoing failure and waste of time and money that's done more harm than good.
 
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I agree in spirit with "legalize everything", but drugs like heroin, fentanyl, and meth are just too strong for a large section of the population to resist becoming addicted to. There would be a point where these drugs get so "good" that it would be too much of a drain on society.
 

Gashtronomy

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I agree in spirit with "legalize everything", but drugs like heroin, fentanyl, and meth are just too strong for a large section of the population to resist becoming addicted to. There would be a point where these drugs get so "good" that it would be too much of a drain on society.
Survival of the fittest. Make heroin et al, so addictive that the user overdoses by the time they get to their 5th hit.
 

Zefah

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Opiates/opiods fucking ruin people. I don't know if I could ever support legalization of that kind of heavy shit.
 

Blade2.0

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a slow rolling tide of trial balloon states seems adequate

decriminalize, then medicalize(?), then recreational-ize, then observe various stats as the experiment runs

i think we need more over counter painkillers tho, excedrin and ibuprofen just doesn't work well for people like me
Something we can agree on. Ibuprofen doesn't do shit for when I get a gout attack. China had an amazing over the counter drug for the pain, but it isn't available in the states.
 
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crowbrow

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I support it 100%. My reasons to do it:

-It is widely accepted that prohibition of alcohol in the US provided a foothold for criminal mafia groups to gain huge amounts of power and influence similar to how the cartels do now. As long as prohibition exists, this foothold will exist.

-The war on drugs is a complete failure, it hasn't stopped violence or the proliferation of cartels or drug use or addiction. It has wasted billions or even more in resources. Clearly keeping this method is nonsense.

-Illegal drug trade not only helps finance cartels but political violence and influence, from the CIA, to paramilitary and communist guerrillas have used illegal drug money to finance armament, insurgency groups and political destabilization in Latin America.

-Drug usage should be treated as a health issue not a criminal issue. Addicts are victims and the state should provide them with care rather than jail. Not only treating drug use as a criminal act doesn't help with addiction but also fills jails with people that shouldn't be there and then you have a overbooked jailing system that is a ticking bomb and where these " drug criminals" actually learn to become real criminals.

-A good way to finance the health costs for addiction besides saving money from jailing people that shouldn't be in jail is that through legalization you could tax drugs and, instead of all that money going to cartels and armed groups, it could go to the state to finance social programs for addiction and prevention. Also actual legitimate business owners would be making money, providing also to the economy and jobs.

-For people who think legalization will cause an epidemic of addiction that's simply not true. As I posted in another thread only 5% of illicit drug users become addicts. Most recreational drug users are not addicts. Besides in the few countries where there has been legalization or decriminalization, the addiction rates have not gone up so there's no reason for the hysterical panic.

-Also by legalization and regularization you can control quality of the substance and provide accurate information to the users. Users who know exactly what they are taking and that the product is of quality will have much less rates of medical problems and emergencies reducing as well the costs of health treatments. (This actually happened in Portugal where decriminalization alone brought a considerable decrease in HIV cases because of the increase in safety of a more relaxed market)

-Drugs should a personal choice made in a free society and, in most cases, it doesn't affect others more or less than stuff like alcohol, cigarettes or even pollution. If legalization comes together with health and prevention campaigns like with cigarettes I don't see why it can't be a highly controlled and manageable business.

If I think of other points I will ad them.
 
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Whitesnake

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Nay.

Hard drugs are too addictive to expect people to not abuse them. It can and will bring people into downward spirals of financial ruin that either ends with them sleeping on the streets or in a prison cell.

On top of the many health problems, the effects that many drugs have on the mind, both short-term and long-term, make users a danger to others as well as themselves.

Throwing addicts in rehab instead of jail won’t actually fix anything. The results will be the same, the ones that want to get better will get better, but the ones who don’t want to get better will immediately relapse and continue as normal.

I don’t believe getting high is a human right.
 
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Vicetrailia

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People need to go to jail for possessing drugs because they lead to homelessness, and theft/crime. Decriminalizing weed and molly is fine, but the hard shit is a no no.
 

DrJohnGalt

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I also support decriminalization of all drugs across the board, but I wouldn't legalize "hard" drugs. If you commit a crime (reckless driving, robbery, and worse) while under the influence of drugs it should be considered (just like reckless driving is a lot worse if you've been drinking).

I don't believe the role of government is to protect people from themselves.
 

crowbrow

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Alcohol is too addictive to expect people to not abuse it. It can and will bring people into downward spirals of financial ruin that either ends with them sleeping on the streets or in a prison cell.

On top of the many health problems, the effects that alcohol have on the mind, both short-term and long-term, make users a danger to others as well as themselves.
You can basically change "hard drugs" by "alcohol" (like I did) and the whole post is also valid. Still not a justification to ban alcohol.
 
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Whitesnake

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You can basically change "hard drugs" by "alcohol" (like I did) and the whole post is also valid. Still not a justification to ban alcohol.
Sure.

But alcohol is much more mild in both short-term and long-term effects and is less chemically addictive compared to hard drugs. It’s also less dangerous to make.

I don’t think alcohol is that good for society either, but I’d rather have alcohol and weed around than let everyone have crack and heroin.