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White House discussing whether to argue that Trump wasn't officially Impeached due to Pelosi not sending the articles to the Senate

Digital Gex

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I think they should do this, it would force Pelosi's hand. She will either send the articles or upset her base who will see the Republicans claiming he was never impeached, while being mad and confused about why Pelosi won't send the paperwork. Brilliant with a hint of irony.


The White House is considering making the argument that President Trump has not officially been impeached, given that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has not transmitted the articles of impeachment to the Senate, two sources involved in the president's impeachment defense told CBS News.

The House voted to impeach Mr. Trump on two articles of impeachment — abuse of power and obstruction of Congress — on Wednesday. However, Pelosi told reporters on Thursday that the House would wait to deliver the articles until the Senate had laid out the rules for the trial.
"When we see the process that's set forth in the Senate, then we'll know the number of managers we'll have to move forward, and who we would choose," the California Democrat said. The House must vote on a resolution designating impeachment managers to prosecute the case against Mr. Trump in the Senate before delivering the articles.

The White House is considering making the case that Mr. Trump has not been impeached based on an opinion piece by Harvard Law Professor Noah Feldman on Bloomberg's opinion page Thursday. Feldman was one of the legal experts called by Democrats to testify before the House Judiciary Committee earlier this month and has advocated for Mr. Trump's impeachment and removal from office.
"Impeachment as contemplated by the Constitution does not consist merely of the vote by the House, but of the process of sending the articles to the Senate for trial," Feldman wrote in Bloomberg. "Both parts are necessary to make an impeachment under the Constitution: The House must actually send the articles and send managers to the Senate to prosecute the impeachment. And the Senate must actually hold a trial."
"If the House does not communicate its impeachment to the Senate, it hasn't actually impeached the president. If the articles are not transmitted, Trump could legitimately say that he wasn't truly impeached at all," Feldman wrote.

It seems the idea came from one of the Democrats own star witnesses during the inquiry, juicy.
 
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cryptoadam

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Might as well since the whole thing is just a PR game anyways.

Dems don't care about actual impeachment they just want to be able to plaster their ads saying Trump was impeached vote Democrat. They want the soundbyte.

So hurt em where it hurts and "exonerate" (LOL) Trump from this impeachment sham. Take away the power Pelosi thinks she has.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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For those who watched the impeachment, the argument was made by this guy:



Harsh condemnation when one of your own star witnesses undercuts the whole thing. 🤷‍♀️
 

Digital Gex

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Wait, doesn't her base on twitter think Trump has already been removed? :messenger_tears_of_joy:

This is why I don't understand why Pelosi is holding the articles. Her base will become confused and mad once they learn the reason why he's not removed is because she won't send the articles.
 
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dolabla

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This is why I don't understand why Pelosi is holding the articles. Her base will become confused and mad once they learn the reason why he's not removed is because she won't send the articles.

No doubt. Nancy better get on it!
 

Zangiefy360

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This is too rich. Our media jumped the gun and President Trump threw out the red flag to demand an instant replay.

Nancy and the Dems are reeling. She has no moves left.
 
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Madonis

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The White House doesn't make that call, since there's no formal time limit involved.

The House could send the articles in two weeks or two months. It wouldn't make a difference, legally speaking.
 

Vicetrailia

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Everyone is too caught up in the emotional weeds of all of this. I know it's entertaining but, Sit back and relax.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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The White House doesn't make that call, since there's no formal time limit involved.

The House could send the articles in two weeks or two months. It wouldn't make a difference, legally speaking.
It's getting too easy to clown on the Dems if this is your retort. Trump is just blustering as usual. We'll see if the Dems flinch. I bet they will, because Trump knows the PR value of this is more important than the actual legal outcome. He's pissing in their scheme while the Democrats keep insisting there's no scheme.
 
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zeorhymer

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The White House doesn't make that call, since there's no formal time limit involved.

The House could send the articles in two weeks or two months. It wouldn't make a difference, legally speaking.
No, but the point is that every single main stream media jumped on "Trump's been impeached!" sensationalism. If they just said, "The House drafted articles of impeachment and will deliver it to the Senate," then there's no problem. MSM just blew off their head because it really does make it look like a coup attempt.
 

Cravis

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Yep and impeachment means nothing unless the Senate finds him guilty, which they won’t.

It’s like saying I got stopped for speeding and given a ticket but thankfully the judge threw it out.

Bunch of un-informed losers out there that think he’s gone. Saw a few “Bye, Felicia” tweets earlier. Those need to be retweeted back to those folks in 2020 if he is re-elected.
 

Madonis

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No, but the point is that every single main stream media jumped on "Trump's been impeached!" sensationalism. If they just said, "The House drafted articles of impeachment and will deliver it to the Senate," then there's no problem. MSM just blew off their head because it really does make it look like a coup attempt.

Except that it doesn't fit the definition of "coup attempt" in any serious manner. Impeachment is part of the legal framework, even if you believe he's innocent.
 
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zeorhymer

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Except that it doesn't fit the definition of "coup attempt" in any serious manner. Impeachment is part of the legal framework, even if you believe he's innocent.
Oh? You have people on the inside who can't even say what crime he committed. Then you the people on the outside pushing the narrative "YAY he's impeached." And all Trump did is that he's a boorish asshole. No need to play semantics.
 

Cravis

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Oh? You have people on the inside who can't even say what crime he committed. Then you the people on the outside pushing the narrative "YAY he's impeached." And all Trump did is that he's a boorish asshole. No need to play semantics.
Yep they’re impeaching based on what they think was going on during that phone call with no hard evidence. By that sword we could try them for a coup attempt since that’s what we think is going on with no hard evidence.
 

Madonis

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Oh? You have people on the inside who can't even say what crime he committed. Then you the people on the outside pushing the narrative "YAY he's impeached." And all Trump did is that he's a boorish asshole. No need to play semantics.

Impeachment was designed by the Founding Fathers as an inherently political process that isn't exclusively limited to criminal offenses.

For instance, there's been impeachment of judges for entirely non-criminal yet improper behavior. Trump's behavior can also be seen as improper or abusive, even if technically legal.

I think it's valid to disagree about whether there are enough merits to impeach Trump (or if it's better to just elect someone else), but the process itself isn't a coup.
 
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BigBooper

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I don't know that it's a point worth making at this point. If they do that, they will also have to explain why and it simply seems like splitting hairs.

After Trump's reelected though, if they never follow through, that's another story. He should rub it in as much as possible.
 

zeorhymer

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I think it's valid to disagree about whether there are enough merits to impeach Trump (or if it's better to just elect someone else), but the process itself isn't a coup.
The process is just the process like any workflow. Starting the process with an erroneous FISA warrant has to give you pause.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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Impeachment was designed by the Founding Fathers as an inherently political process that isn't exclusively limited to criminal offenses.
"Hey, this isn't limited to criminal offenses. It's an inherently political act" has got to be the most clueless, self-incriminating standpoint I've seen in the whole impeachment circus.

So you admit there was nothing illegal about Trump's actions? I just want to make sure I understand your stance.

For instance, there's been impeachment of judges for entirely non-criminal yet improper behavior. Trump's behavior can also be seen as improper or abusive, even if technically legal.
This is a wonderful example of an individual whose brain is an open funnel for news talking-points.


Using your own example, Trump's behavior is nothing in comparison to the behavior that got Federal judges removed.

I think it's valid to disagree about whether there are enough merits to impeach Trump (or if it's better to just elect someone else), but the process itself isn't a coup.
No one is claiming the process itself is a coup. People are rightly pointing out that the Dem majority is abusing the process as a coup against a duly elected official. I am grateful that in our country coups are carried out in this manner instead of by military action, but let's call it for what it is.
 

Texas Pride

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They accuse Trump of withholding aid to Ukraine until a favorable outcome was produced. Democrats are withholding articles of impeachment until they're granted a favorable outcome in the Senate. So in the end they've become the boogeyman they sought to destroy. I've never seen a group of people so pigheaded and stubborn that they continue to take losses and ignore the failure of it all. Kavanaugh,Russia hoax,impeachment make a list and it becomes apparent they're to the point of fanaticism when it comes to Trump and rational thought goes out the window.
 

Madonis

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It's not part of the legal framework to break the rules during the impeachment proceedings like the Democrats did.

What specific and concrete rules were broken, legally speaking? Why aren't Republicans suing over those violations of the law yet?

"Hey, this isn't limited to criminal offenses. It's an inherently political act" has got to be the most clueless, self-incriminating standpoint I've seen in the whole impeachment circus.

So you admit there was nothing illegal about Trump's actions? I just want to make sure I understand your stance.

Yes, impeachment is a political process about political offenses. Not just this impeachment, I am referring to the concept itself as originally understood.

The subjects of its jurisdiction are those offenses which proceed from the misconduct of public men, or, in other words, from the abuse or violation of some public trust. They are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated POLITICAL, as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself. The prosecution of them, for this reason, will seldom fail to agitate the passions of the whole community, and to divide it into parties more or less friendly or inimical to the accused. In many cases it will connect itself with the pre-existing factions, and will enlist all their animosities, partialities, influence, and interest on one side or on the other; and in such cases there will always be the greatest danger that the decision will be regulated more by the comparative strength of parties, than by the real demonstrations of innocence or guilt.


That sounds about right to me, including the prediction that people would mostly follow their pre-existing party loyalties.

Carrying out impeachment for "high crimes and misdemeanors" does not require violating a criminal statute but includes the abuse of power as a form of violation of the public trust. I believe Trump's behavior in the Ukrainian affair can be considered improper and subject to impeachment, as such, but not strictly criminal. In other words, it's not a crime. That doesn't make it good nor that the House can't rightfully or wrongfully choose to impeach him for it.

To put it another way, perhaps impeachment over this may be unwise or inconvenient. However, I believe it is legal.

Using your own example, Trump's behavior is nothing in comparison to the behavior that got Federal judges removed.

Which is why I don't necessarily think he should be removed per se, even in the almost impossible circumstance of a Senate trial without partisan leanings, but that doesn't mean he can't be legally impeached for it.

No one is claiming the process itself is a coup. People are rightly pointing out that the Dem majority is abusing the process as a coup against a duly elected official. I am grateful that in our country coups are carried out in this manner instead of by military action, but let's call it for what it is.

I don't think it is, because it's a process that the U.S. Constitution allows (and which the Founders knew to be political). It's neither a coup nor a nullification of the election.

You may personally believe the impeached individual is innocent, but that doesn't mean it is a "coup". Not even if the Democrats controlled the Senate and could remove him, which they don't and can't.

The process is just the process like any workflow. Starting the process with an erroneous FISA warrant has to give you pause.

That's the Russia investigation (and there were more grounds to carry it out than the Carter Page issue), which is another topic and not part of the impeachment.
 
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NickFire

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What specific and concrete rules were broken, legally speaking? Why aren't Republicans suing over those violations of the law yet?



Yes, impeachment is a political process about political offenses. Not just this impeachment, I am referring to the concept itself as originally understood.



That sounds about right to me.


Carrying out impeachment for "high crimes and misdemeanors" does not require violating a criminal statute but includes the abuse of power as a form of violation of the public trust. I believe Trump's behavior in the Ukrainian affair can be considered improper and subject to impeachment, as such, but not strictly criminal. In other words, it's not a crime. That doesn't make it good or that the House can't rightfully or wrongfully choose to impeach him for it.



Which is why I don't necessarily think he should be removed per se, even in the almost impossible circumstance of a Senate trial without partisan leanings, but that doesn't mean he can't be legally impeached for it.



I don't think it is, because it's a process that the U.S. Constitution allows. It's neither a coup nor a nullification of the election.

You may personally believe the impeached individual is innocent, but that doesn't mean it is a "coup". Not even if the Democrats controlled the Senate and could remove him, which they don't.



That's the Russia investigation (and there were more grounds to carry it out than the Carter Page issue), which is another topic and not part of the impeachment.
The Russian hoax was a soft coup attempt in my humble opinion, but the impeachment was just a garden variety abuse of power to give an xmas gift to the squad's peeps while tarnishing Trump's name to help treat TDS.
 

daveonezero

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Why would the senate waste their time figuring out how a trial is going to go down to appease Nancy?

She just Took the playground ball and went home with it.
The which hunt doesn’t want actual evidence or disclosure.
They want the general public opinion.

They realized a long time ago that Americans actually thought starting an impeachment trial actually meant the president is guilty.
 
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CeroFrio996

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No, but the point is that every single main stream media jumped on "Trump's been impeached!" sensationalism. If they just said, "The House drafted articles of impeachment and will deliver it to the Senate," then there's no problem. MSM just blew off their head because it really does make it look like a coup attempt.

But Trump HAS been impeached... impeachment isnt removal from office. Impeachment like an indictment, and the senate will have the trial. The MSM is on about it because Trumps only the third president to ever be impeached. Whether or not he should have been impeached the fact that he has been is a big deal.
 

zeorhymer

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But Trump HAS been impeached... impeachment isnt removal from office. Impeachment like an indictment, and the senate will have the trial. The MSM is on about it because Trumps only the third president to ever be impeached. Whether or not he should have been impeached the fact that he has been is a big deal.
I must have missed the memo. When did Pelosi hand over the articles to the Senate?
 

DunDunDunpachi

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But Trump HAS been impeached... impeachment isnt removal from office. Impeachment like an indictment, and the senate will have the trial. The MSM is on about it because Trumps only the third president to ever be impeached. Whether or not he should have been impeached the fact that he has been is a big deal.
Yeah you're out of the loop on this one which is strange because we're literally in a thread packed with statements from informed experts (like the same one from the impeachment hearing) and credible arguments as to why it's only impeachment when... you know... the House process ends.

Are you familiar with "being served"? A court can't legally hold you accountable until the lawsuit has been furnished to you. It might seem incredibly dull to belabor this point, but this process protects citizens from secret courts that hold secret trials to convict you at a distance. Y'know, like FISA.

So until the House hands over the articles of impeachment to the Senate, Trump has not been "served", or in this case the term is "impeached".
 

CeroFrio996

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So until the House hands over the articles of impeachment to the Senate, Trump has not been "served", or in this case the term is "impeached".

The difference is semantic in my opinion. The vote has been held and, like an indictment, once it's set in motion it will eventually be "served".