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[akuda]

Throwing in my two cents...

I tried to get into Gaf... I guess it's called 1.0 now, a few times over the last few years. Mostly around big events like E3. And last year I actually made a go of sticking around.

That lasted about six hours. Without getting into specifics, in my first day I got shouted down and people trawled through my search history trying to prove I wasn't a woman because I didn't agree with them.

That's the flavor of militant community I hate. It's the fact-warping, double-think, outright refusal of reality and the constant need to square everyone away into Us and Them. If I'm here getting shouted down, are you fighting for women? If you're shouting down people who suggest alternative methods for the exact same end, are you pushing your cause or just militant with no purpose?

For all the brass bikini talk on Gaf 1.0 I think the most prominent thing in the gaming community that actively discourages me from taking part is self-proclaimed male feminists pointing me out and saying "you're a sock puppet." Nothing could possibly be less welcoming or accepting.

If Gaf 2.0 can do away with that attitude, I'll definitely make a go of dropping in more often.

 

[Dunki]

I love Margaret Atwood, but lean towards the arguments against her. Calling what happened to her a visous attack seems like demonising a lively but not harmful debate.

Infants are well known to participate in socialisation even when they're very young. What people end up doing as a job is such a socially complex issue, that it's become a pet peeve of mine when people mention their gender jobs theory, as if it is a well known fact and not just a theory that a small subset of scientists have.

Also when I read that article you linked it almost appeared to imply the opposite of what you said. That article mostly uses DOJ statistics to disprove the idea floated around that there is a rape epidemic on campuses. Using DOJ statistics to prove their argument seems a little weak seeing that a lot of sexual assaults are never reported, or if they are reported they're not properly looked into. For example:

https://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/nancy-kaffer/2017/12/17/rape-kit-detroit/953083001/

They were dogpiling on her. There is a reason why someone like her has to take a break on social media. So yes I do think that you cann call this a visous attack. Modern Feminists use this "excuse" for way less. Hell. Remember the UN Women debate in which I think it was Sarkesian and co tried to argue that it is harrassment if people over the internet disagree with her? There was a reason why this debate was deleted afterwards...

As for the Infants: We are talking here again about babies who were ONE DAY alive. Maybe if you believe babies/infants can be manipulated in their mothers womb this argument can count.

And for the rape part: There were 6 cases in this year. So if we believe that 90% do not get reported it is still a pretty low number given the number of campuses in America. I do not see how this argument is proving the opposite. WE even have numbers that rape or sexual assault has been lowered by over 60% in the last 30 years. It just does not add up at all.

 

[TheGraykid]

They were dogpiling on her. There is a reason why someone like her has to take a break on social media. So yes I do think that you cann call this a visous attack. Modern Feminists use this "excuse" for way less. Hell. Remember the UN Women debate in which I think it was Sarkesian and co tried to argue that it is harrassment if people over the internet disagree with her? There was a reason why this debate was deleted afterwards...

As for the Infants: We are talking here again about babies who were ONE DAY alive. Maybe if you believe babies/infants can be manipulated in their mothers womb this argument can count.

And for the rape part: There were 6 cases in this year. So if we believe that 90% do not get reported it is still a pretty low number given the number of campuses in America. I do not see how this argument is proving the opposite. WE even have numbers that rape or sexual assault has been lowered by over 60% in the last 30 years. It just does not add up at all.

If you write an article on the internet, it's not dogpiling if people respond to it online. I don't know what Sarkesian has anything to do with this, she just expressed her own personal opinion. One feminist does not equal every modern feminist.

With the infant thing, that sounds super interesting I would be very interested to see those studies.

I don't know where you get "There were 6 cases in this year" from. The only thing closest to that in the article you posted was "During the years surveyed, 1995-2002, the DOJ found that there were six rapes or sexual assaults per thousand per year.", so six rapes or sexual assaults PER THOUSAND PEOPLE, per year. Furthermore, the article you posted uses DOJ data collected from a survey technique over the years of 1995-2002, and 1994-2010, it feels wrong to use data that old to draw any conclusive trends about the world of right now. Even if we did do that, we'd be ignoring all the other data collected in similar ways which points in the opposite direction. All of this is underscored by an admission by DOJ studies that:

"The measurement of rape and sexual assault presents many challenges. Victims may not be willing to reveal or share their experiences with an interviewer. The level and type of sexual violence reported by victims is sensitive to how items are worded, definitions used, data collection mode, and a variety of other factors related to the interview process. In addition, the legal definitions of rape and sexual assault vary across jurisdictions. "

Also, none of the sources you posted even mention things like sexual harassment which was my initial point, to begin with. All we're talking about is sexual violence, which is somewhat missing the point.

 

[Dunki]

With the infant thing, that sounds super interesting I would be very interested to see those studies.

t.

First of all I need to apologize. Of course it wsa 6 per thousands which is still a very small number compared to the every 5th women scenario. Don not get me wrong. We still need to a lot of work to lower these numbers but to fiight the probelms we need real numbers and analyze the reasons for it in a very cold manner. therefore feelings should not matter here. Also imagine the every 5th women is true while also the cases went down by 60% in the last case. That would mean that almost every second women would have been raped 30 years ago.

As for the sexual harrassment part: There is also a huge problem what people consider sexual harrassment. See the whole Aziz debatte. Some feminist even consider it sexual harrassment when you speak to a women in public who is reading a book. Yes no joke.

And Sarkessian was mentioned because she literally stated that it is harrassement when you disagree with her on the internet. So giving that she had to take a break from social media for her inocent until guilty comment" she recieved a ton of this and since I know how visous the left can be I bet it was not a pretty sight. I bet she get ton of rape and death threats from the so called progressive side.

And I guess I have to state again: I am talking about the 3rd wave/intersectional/tumblr/internet feminists. People like essica valenti. Sarkessian etc.

Last but not least. Sinc eI am at work I can not search all day for the studies but I can give you a link of a 38 minute documentary which includes all these studies and interviews about this topic. It is really intersting to watch.

 

[dolabla]

I would argue that Era is just Neogaf 2012-2017 but significantly worse
I do not pretend to have been here since the olden days, having only made an account in 2014.
But I've seen the older threads.
And old threads had here are threads that would not fly in Era.

Lol, no doubt. This is Era is a nutshell:

 

[Senua]

It's funny that this site is way more civil than it used to be, and compared to resetera.

 

[Amory]

The problem I had was that people were absolutely free to be assholes to others, so long as it was about the "right" things. The non-religious could say whatever they wanted about the religious. Damn near every thread was about what a terrible place the US is, and full of ignorant generalizations about the American people. You could derail threads and shitpost to your heart's content, as long as your opinion was shared by the mods.

Old GAF wasn't a friendly place. For all the SJW hand wringing going on, it was a mean spirited forum full of bullies who knew they'd never get banned.

And unsurprisingly, Era is headed that same way.

 

[Green Saber]

Yeah, I mean, this was off-topic:



I could barely look at it at the time. All the threads in pink were deleted by the mods to try to keep the peace while I tried to write some kind of official statement, but everything kept getting worse and worse. I basically hadn't slept for three days at that point because I found out about the facebook allegation two days prior and since she deleted it the next day and it hadn't become a thing I didn't know if I'd have to address it publicly or not. Then I guess some Social Justice gaffers got together on Twitter and coordinated posting screenshots of the already deleted allegation all over the site the day after that, everything went wild as per the screenshot above, we were then getting DDoSed and the site was down more than it was up, mods started having panic attacks and resigning and then the site was pretty much completely down from the DDoSing and I had rewritten my statement like a dozen times over at that point and had nothing left in me. I basically shifted over to saying goodbyes to everyone who was quitting since some of those folks I had been running gaf with for almost two decades. Gromph was trying to get the site back up but I told him to get some sleep since everything seemed fucked anyway, and I spent the night emailing Patrick Klepek with comment about the story (while still not having slept yet I don't think...) since I figured he would be a more neutral and well-researched avenue than Kotaku, who asked me absolutely ridiculous leading questions.

When Gromph woke up he managed to take the site down officially for maintenance through the DDoSes, and I tried to regroup the remaining few people to figure out what to do when we turned things back on, but there was barely anyone left and off-topic was where most of the rioting had taken place, so that's why off-topic was closed temporarily. Some insane social justice people were trying to get anyone who hadn't disavowed NeoGAF fired from their jobs (unsuccessfully, since that's ridiculous, but it still created more panic internally). I told everyone from the start of the panic that morning to protect themselves first and foremost and that I didn't blame them if they felt they needed to leave. Almost everyone ended up leaving. When we came back online we didn't have enough mod coverage to possibly deal with all the Reset promotional spam so we just kind of let it run its course, figure out what to do, I lawyered up and started documenting evidence with my lawyers that discredited the allegation completely, but very quickly the narrative moved on to how it "wasn't about the allegation" anymore.

I had to take care of family medical emergencies shortly thereafter and I was pretty shaken by everything and didn't want to bring any volunteer mods into such a shitstorm where people were trying to fuck with anyone still involved with the site, so even though tons of people offered to help mod via PM I turned them down, asked them to sit tight and just give things some time, and hired some contractors to take care of things on the moderation end until everything settled down enough where I felt it was okay to bring a new team of mods in. I mean, when the contractors were helping, things were still really bad with hundreds of account suicides with porn spam and Reset promotion. We got Cloudflare up ASAP though and so the subsequent DDoS attempts were unsuccessful at least.

It was messy. I fucked up plenty during the whole thing and didn't communicate with everyone here enough except through some PMs, because I was really sad about how the community seemed to turn on me so awfully, and then the media circus that followed was just astounding in scope and I wanted nothing to do with that either and told all my friends and business associates to distance themselves until things cooled off. I probably should have protected myself more instead of just letting it all hit me, but it seemed like the public narrative had been set in stone instantly anyway.

I think you have done a great job of getting Gaf up and running again. Having read up about what happened before I can honestly say that I think people were wrong to judge you so quickly and so harshly, everyone deserves the right to defend themselves and the amount of hate you received was insane, I am glad to see you back on your feet, thank you for keeping the site going and also thank you accepting me into your site, here's to the future success of NeoGaf.

 

[MogCakes]

No part of GAF was militant, but there was a clear and growing tension between its communities and all it took was a catalyst for them to blow apart. Much of the arguments even in this thread don't involve Evilore or the incident itself, they are about the forum climate as it was.

 

[Blam]

No part of GAF was militant, but there was a clear and growing tension between its communities and all it took was a catalyst for them to blow apart. Much of the arguments even in this thread don't involve Evilore or the incident itself, they are about the forum climate as it was.

Well yeah that's sorta the whole point. It was never about Evilore, it was about GAF being shit in general more like a highschool that had too many cliques. Once it hit a breaking point everyone went in with a school brawl.

 

[Cato]

There was most definitely a very toxic alt-left, but very vocal, group that poisoned everything on old-gaf.

I disagree with OP that this was due to the trans community. Most trans people probably, I hope, felt
offended by these extreme "activists" speaking for them. As I think all other minorities spoken for by these crazies
also felt.

Most trans folks are decent people, just like everyone else. Sure there are a few bad apples, like in any demographic,
but most of them are just normal decent people.

The cancer in old-gaf were not the trans community but the very small and very intolerant and very toxic
and very cancerous tiny professional offended activist groups that destroys all discourse.
The trans community did not elect these crazies to talk for them and are not responsible for their
transgressions.

Thank god that those SJW, said UN-IRONICALLY, are gone from this site.

This whole thread is proof that we can have a, mostly, civil discussion on these topics and problems
without having it degenerating into "who is most progressive and hateful olympics".

I don't think OP is a bigot. He just mistakenly was socially conditioned to be annoyed by one group, not by what the group did,
but by what a small crazy militant alt-left clique, pretending to be speaking for the trans community, behaved.

He made a mistake, but he is human and we can all learn.

 

[SatansReverence]

No part of GAF was militant, but there was a clear and growing tension between its communities and all it took was a catalyst for them to blow apart. Much of the arguments even in this thread don't involve Evilore or the incident itself, they are about the forum climate as it was.

This is uncatagorically false, Gaf had a very prevalent and vocal militant alt left feminazi SJW community to the point where no matter what the subject, unless you towed the company line you would get attacked from multiple angles and even banned by "impartial" moderators. It was virtually impossible for someone with a functioning brain who could reasonably approach a subject to actually post without getting attacked. In fact I got my tag from participating in a thread full of such users.

Now though, this place is significantly improved. I for one don't give the slightest of fucks about left wing or right wing politics. I'm not some meek little sheep who just follows who I perceive to be the loudest wolf in the paddock. Now it is actually possible to have a conversation with other intelligent users and have a meaningful discourse. An exchange of ideas and ideologies which eventually is what improves us all. Zero improvements come from neither left wing or right wing nut job echo chambers.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

It's really weird to come back to this place after a few weeks and see how it did a 180 completely. I sincerely hope there's still a bunch of great people on this forum, but given the recent OT posts I checked and see insults hurled at posters like me and tons of others who left or aren't comfortable posting their opinion on here anymore I doubt it. "SJW" is now a legit insult, "the alt-left" and "feminazi" are now common, unironically used vocabulary. The communities that made Gaf what it was are now a free-for-all target practice with no respect of what they did and still do elsewhere. This place reads like reading a generic Gamergate forum now, and that's incredibly sad to see, since at one time it was a forum that quite literally made me a better person than what I was before, when I didn't give a shit about other views and, sadly, people.

Given that I no longer want to be associated with a site literally hating me and so many friends I made throughout the last decade on GAF, I'd like to request an account deletion or ban. Of course I could just go and never log in again, but since I'm not obligated to share my reasons or feelings on the difference to anyone on here, I'd go with a "No, thank you" on that. I want to end my membership on GAF on my, personal, terms, and that's part of it. I don't want to derail, but I felt like I had to get this off my chest as well, so please just ignore this post if it doesn't concern you.

I sincerely wish you the best,
T.

 

[Corrik]

It's really weird to come back to this place after a few weeks and see how it did a 180 completely. I sincerely hope there's still a bunch of great people on this forum, but given the recent OT posts I checked and see insults hurled at posters like me and tons of others who left or aren't comfortable posting their opinion on here anymore I doubt it. "SJW" is now a legit insult, "the alt-left" and "feminazi" are now common, unironically used vocabulary. The communities that made Gaf what it was are now a free-for-all target practice with no respect of what they did and still do elsewhere. This place reads like reading a generic Gamergate forum now, and that's incredibly sad to see, since at one time it was a forum that quite literally made me a better person than what I was before, when I didn't give a shit about other views and, sadly, people.

Given that I no longer want to be associated with a site literally hating me and so many friends I made throughout the last decade on GAF, I'd like to request an account deletion or ban. Of course I could just go and never log in again, but since I'm not obligated to share my reasons or feelings on the difference to anyone on here, I'd go with a "No, thank you" on that. I want to end my membership on GAF on my, personal, terms, and that's part of it. I don't want to derail, but I felt like I had to get this off my chest as well, so please just ignore this post if it doesn't concern you.

I sincerely wish you the best,
T.

Why do you feel people are hating on you and your friends?

 

[Alx]

This place reads like reading a generic Gamergate forum now.

Such hyperbole is the root of the issue actually. Claiming NeoGaf has become some sort of alt-right haven is ridiculous, as much as some of the way people picture resetera is excessive. There have been some opinions expressed here that would have been silenced a few months ago, some even borderline indeed, but if you can't accept discussing with people having different opinions from yours then the issue is on your side. I'm pretty sure the new rules will let anybody from old Gaf defend his unchanged stance, what is frowned upon is the hostility, not the values.
Limiting your discussions with people you agree with is the definition of an echo chamber. The very nature of the debate is to confront dissenting people.

 

[luxsol]

This is uncatagorically false, Gaf had a very prevalent and vocal militant alt left feminazi SJW community to the point where no matter what the subject, unless you towed the company line you would get attacked from multiple angles and even banned by "impartial" moderators. It was virtually impossible for someone with a functioning brain who could reasonably approach a subject to actually post without getting attacked.

Oh man, the Star Wars threads over there are great.

Those people been conditioned so long to just raging and simply making accusation to silence someone for having a different opinion that they've been getting people banned by calling them sexist, racist, misogynistic, etc because someone doesn't like that the main character doesn't earns her abilities with work or has them fall into her lap.
You can call anything else just "not good" or even strongly worded as "shit" without anyone getting offended, but if you don't have your 5 point thesis ready to qualify your statement about a female protagonist or just the plot, you're gonna get warned or banned, if not silenced by being dog piled. Oh, and your five point thesis? It's still trolling/reddit/gamergate material and they're going to pick at everything you said to try and get you banned, and getting banned = everything you said was wrong, thus Rey isn't a Mary Sue.

It's that way with so many topics that it's impossible to disagree and not getting a couple of them to try and get you banned or warned by them making claims about you.
And this shit had been happening on GAF since at least 2007, but the moderation wasn't completely changed yet to enforce that policy of different opinions are wrong. I mean, back then and before we had a very healthy discussion between the left and right, but it slowly got more and more left to the point where just having a right view was ban worthy.
I pretty much viewed NeoGAF as being 4chan's left version of /pol/, where it's overwhelming hate just to hate. The rest of 4chan, even /b/, was far more understanding, fair and sympathetic than this place was, and how the other forum currently is. People can actually have a very knowledgeable discussion on shit over on 4chan, with far less extremism and actual facts being discussed.

So i don't think you can get actually more militant than how NeoGAF was (and RE currently is), when the members were working with the mods to cut out any dissenting opinions or views.

 

[SatansReverence]

It's really weird to come back to this place after a few weeks and see how it did a 180 completely. I sincerely hope there's still a bunch of great people on this forum, but given the recent OT posts I checked and see insults hurled at posters like me and tons of others who left or aren't comfortable posting their opinion on here anymore I doubt it. "SJW" is now a legit insult, "the alt-left" and "feminazi" are now common, unironically used vocabulary. The communities that made Gaf what it was are now a free-for-all target practice with no respect of what they did and still do elsewhere. This place reads like reading a generic Gamergate forum now, and that's incredibly sad to see, since at one time it was a forum that quite literally made me a better person than what I was before, when I didn't give a shit about other views and, sadly, people.

Given that I no longer want to be associated with a site literally hating me and so many friends I made throughout the last decade on GAF, I'd like to request an account deletion or ban. Of course I could just go and never log in again, but since I'm not obligated to share my reasons or feelings on the difference to anyone on here, I'd go with a "No, thank you" on that. I want to end my membership on GAF on my, personal, terms, and that's part of it. I don't want to derail, but I felt like I had to get this off my chest as well, so please just ignore this post if it doesn't concern you.

I sincerely wish you the best,
T.

Lets summarise this post.

You don't match my radical left (and warped) world views so you must be hitler.

Gaf is no longer my personal echo chamber, whaaaaa.

I crave attention so I'm going to request a ban, but it's totally not attention craving.

fyi, terms such as alt left, feminazi, SJW and militant are perfectly reasonable ways to describe gafs community before the exodus but do keep plying the victim card, perhaps you weren't taught a certain nursery rhyme growing up because it wasn't gender neutral enough for you.

 

[KevinKeene]

It's really weird to come back to this place after a few weeks and see how it did a 180 completely. I sincerely hope there's still a bunch of great people on this forum, but given the recent OT posts I checked and see insults hurled at posters like me and tons of others who left or aren't comfortable posting their opinion on here anymore I doubt it. "SJW" is now a legit insult, "the alt-left" and "feminazi" are now common, unironically used vocabulary. The communities that made Gaf what it was are now a free-for-all target practice with no respect of what they did and still do elsewhere. This place reads like reading a generic Gamergate forum now, and that's incredibly sad to see, since at one time it was a forum that quite literally made me a better person than what I was before, when I didn't give a shit about other views and, sadly, people.

Given that I no longer want to be associated with a site literally hating me and so many friends I made throughout the last decade on GAF, I'd like to request an account deletion or ban. Of course I could just go and never log in again, but since I'm not obligated to share my reasons or feelings on the difference to anyone on here, I'd go with a "No, thank you" on that. I want to end my membership on GAF on my, personal, terms, and that's part of it. I don't want to derail, but I felt like I had to get this off my chest as well, so please just ignore this post if it doesn't concern you.

I sincerely wish you the best,
T.

This posting shows how caught-up in their echo chamber one can be. I've been lurking NeoGAF for years, but people like you had me stay quiet, because you'd dogpile and witchhunt any dissenting opinions. You complain about you and 'your friends' receiving some nebulous kind of hate, yet you had no second thoughts when you and 'your friends' threw Evilore under the bus, all just because of a silly accusation. You didn't know what happened, but you were firm in your choice who to believe at that time - the same gross attitude is now slowly but surely undermining the entire #metoo-movement, which is sad, because there is a lot of sexual abuse going on. But once many innocent men enough have been accused and witchhunted, nobody will take the movement seriously anymore. Classic 'boy who cried wolf'-scenario.

And sjw isn't used as insult. It's aptly applied to crazy people that are arguing and demanding bizarre stuff that the majority of the general public would only laugh about. Stuff you can find on the other forum, especially relating to trans-topics. "You're transphobic if you don't accept trans-women as real women" or "youu're transphobic if you don't date trans-women". Or attacking Matt Damon, just for making the reasonable notion that there are many nuances when it comes to sexual misconduct. Or the continued derail of The Last Light-threads. The forced controversy around Kingdom Come: Deliverance. And so on. That's the terrible sort of people the term 'sjw' describes. And unless you can offer a better name for such crazies, sjw is here to stay. It's not an insult, not a right-wing term or anything like that. You just don't like it. And you know why.

And regarding GamerGate: There you're also perpetuating the disingenuous public view that awful websites like Polygon and kotaku keep spreading. GamerGate isn't a misogynist movement doing harassment. There surely are individuals that do this crap, but it's not part of what makes GamerGate. It is about the wish that gaming is all about fun, not about political agenda. It is anti-censorship. And it is 'facts over feelings'. That's it.If you find those 'problematic', the problem probably lies with you. But Xenoblade 2 just became a million-seller, so it seems most people aren't afraid of boobs as much.

 

[Corrik]

Lets summarise this post.

You don't match my radical left (and warped) world views so you must be hitler.

Gaf is no longer my personal echo chamber, whaaaaa.

I crave attention so I'm going to request a ban, but it's totally not attention craving.

fyi, terms such as alt left, feminazi, SJW and militant are perfectly reasonable ways to describe gafs community before the exodus but do keep plying the victim card, perhaps you weren't taught a certain nursery rhyme growing up because it wasn't gender neutral enough for you.

Actually, you are displaying exactly the behavior he was talking about. So, I get where he is coming from now.

 

[SatansReverence]

Actually, you are displaying exactly the behavior he was talking about. So, I get where he is coming from now.

Aaaaand you have a point to make there?

He is right, from his (warped) perspective gaf isn't what it used to be. But that is because I am also correct in saying that gaf was an alt left sjw etc etc etc blah blah echo chamber.

I have absolutely zero respect for anyone who cannot handle the world outside of their special safe places or echo chambers. In fact, no one should respect people like that. They don't deserve it and have done nothing to earn it (respect isn't a basic human right fyi) so I do not give it to them.

And before you even try, I would be treating any neo nazi who tried to come in here with their tiki torch proclaiming kill all jews.

 

[Corrik]

Aaaaand you have a point to make there?

He is right, from his (warped) perspective gaf isn't what it used to be. But that is because I am also correct in saying that gaf was an alt left sjw etc etc etc blah blah echo chamber.

I have absolutely zero respect for anyone who cannot handle the world outside of their special safe places or echo chambers. In fact, no one should respect people like that. They don't deserve it and have done nothing to earn it (respect isn't a basic human right fyi) so I do not give it to them.

And before you even try, I would be treating any neo nazi who tried to come in here with their tiki torch proclaiming kill all jews.

You make valid points at times. Ones I would myself make.

Yes, a lot of his problems seem to be that he has become accustomed to a bubble. When the bubble bursting and other opinions were allowed to clash with his, he did not like it and doesn't want to deal with it.

You can infer by his post alone that he feels by the bubble or echo chamber of thought that he was a part of that he was a better person due to being a part of it. Thus, those who are not part of it are not "better" people.

So, yes, I agree with your posts gist in many ways. That is why I asked him for specific examples of how he was insulted, as there is no reason to insult him for being further left on the spectrum. He is entitled to his opinion just as much as me or you.

However, then you go in outright insulting him with some nonsense about gender neutral nursery rhymes. You are being antagonistic for no reason and are insulting him just as he stated he was being insulted. You outright proved his point. And, I wish he would realize that whether we are on the right it left that such insulting is considered pointless and unwelcome. I have no problem as a Conservative sitting here saying that you are antagonizing him purposely. There are ways to say what you said without being so.

For example:

Yes, both sides of the spectrum have radicals. The "Alt-Right" is wrong, but it does not absolve the "Far Left", "Alt-Left", or "Ultra Liberals" either. Both sides are wrong and both sides should be condemned. Every white supremacists, Neo-Nazi, or other form of the Alt-Right should be unequivocally denounced. This does not mean every conservative should be considered a part of this group.

This also should be the same for far left of the spectrum. This includes Antifa, the few transgender activists who go too far by saying you are transphobic if you do not agree with transgender issues (including accusing you of being a bigot if you do not wish to date someone who is transgender), BLM activists who take the message beyond an encompassing social reform platform into an anti-police area, and feminists who have taken their message beyond that they should be equal but instead think they should be considered superior.

These should be denounced by both sides. These are the kind of people that make your parties look dumb and stupid. We should also be taking care to not group people into these groups unless they truly belong there, however.

I have never in real life been called a racist by someone arguing politics with me. Not a single time. However, it is almost common point no matter the topic on some sites that somehow when discussing politics with someone on the left that they will loop the argument around whether it is about economics or military to somehow label me as a racist, sexist, bigot, or alt right. That is unhealthy and what causes many of the problems and divisiveness that poltiics bring about.

This is also no different to the left. How many times does a person on the left support something and they get labeled as a SJW, feminazi, or whatever else. Why? Unless it is true beyond reproach, then this labeling should not exist.





You could have said something along those lines and made a good post. Instead you insulted the user and tried to label him. Thus, you proved exactly what his point was yourself.

 

[PtM]

And unless you can offer a better name for such crazies, sjw is here to stay. It's not an insult, not a right-wing term or anything like that.

SJW noun informal, derogatory

How bout them facts?

 

[TBiddy]

SJW noun informal, derogatory

How bout them facts?

It's not listed in the dictionary. Only in Oxfords online section, which can hardly be classified as "facts".

 

[lifa-cobex]

It's funny that this site is way more civil than it used to be, and compared to resetera.

No part of GAF was militant, but there was a clear and growing tension between its communities and all it took was a catalyst for them to blow apart. Much of the arguments even in this thread don't involve Evilore or the incident itself, they are about the forum climate as it was.

Gaf was militant. It wasn't the part of two, three or however amounts of users having a POV. It was at the point of moderators deciding "This group is right and this group is wrong. In fact they are so wrong, I will remove them from the site." That is when you pick a side.
Now this would have been fine if Gaf had started like this from the very beginning. The rules were strict but the dialog was open. The rules started the change around the time Gamergate happened. But again, nobody was informed of the new rule set as they were never laid out.
This confused a fuck-ton of ppl (myself included). It was so confusing that many users stopped posting and just watched.

As the rules were never laid out as to what is "right and wrong speak", The rules twisted and were made more broad as the years went on. This is one of the reasons people got very frustrated and acted out.

Reading this thread has been really good. There many posts that I don't agree with but it doesn't matter. Learning how users view dialog and how this site is/was have been informative.
Most of all the tensions are loosening and they will only go on for as long as a piece of rope.

 

[KevinKeene]

SJW noun informal, derogatory

How bout them facts?

How about citing the actual sjw-entry:

A person who expresses or promotes socially progressive views

And I disagree with that definition, as it isn't what most people use it to describe. I consider myself very progressive. But thers nothing progressive about insulting, shaming and punishing people because they don't want to date trans-women. That's what sjw means: people that demand outlandish changes that go so far beyond reason that it has a negative effect on actual important issues.

 

[Amory]

It's really weird to come back to this place after a few weeks and see how it did a 180 completely. I sincerely hope there's still a bunch of great people on this forum, but given the recent OT posts I checked and see insults hurled at posters like me and tons of others who left or aren't comfortable posting their opinion on here anymore I doubt it. "SJW" is now a legit insult, "the alt-left" and "feminazi" are now common, unironically used vocabulary. The communities that made Gaf what it was are now a free-for-all target practice with no respect of what they did and still do elsewhere. This place reads like reading a generic Gamergate forum now, and that's incredibly sad to see, since at one time it was a forum that quite literally made me a better person than what I was before, when I didn't give a shit about other views and, sadly, people.

Given that I no longer want to be associated with a site literally hating me and so many friends I made throughout the last decade on GAF, I'd like to request an account deletion or ban. Of course I could just go and never log in again, but since I'm not obligated to share my reasons or feelings on the difference to anyone on here, I'd go with a "No, thank you" on that. I want to end my membership on GAF on my, personal, terms, and that's part of it. I don't want to derail, but I felt like I had to get this off my chest as well, so please just ignore this post if it doesn't concern you.

I sincerely wish you the best,
T.

I know you already committed your solemn ritual account suicide and all, but I still just wanted to say sanctimonious bullshit.

"I sincerely wish you the best" lol. God.

 

[PtM]

I know you already committed your solemn ritual account suicide and all, but I still just wanted to say fuck this post. Sanctimonious bullshit.

"I sincerely wish you the best" lol. God.

Yeah, the civility of NewGAF is really getting to me.

How about citing the actual sjw-entry:



And I disagree with that definition, as it isn't what most people use it to describe. I consider myself very progressive. But thers nothing progressive about insulting, shaming and punishing people because they don't want to date trans-women. That's what sjw means: people that demand outlandish changes that go so far beyond reason that it has a negative effect on actual important issues.

Maybe you shouldn't use words with your own redefinitions, you're risking misunderstandings.

Just for the record, I didn't look up the full definition because I didn't want to type it out and mark it on the phone.
But hey, social justice warrior is also marked as derogatory. Quelle surprise.

 

[KevinKeene]

Just for the record, I didn't look up the full definition because I didn't want to type it out and mark it on the phone.

Do you not realize how crazy that sounds?

 

[Bill O'Rights]

Just an informal note people. Can we not get bogged down on small details. If you are posting things that you haven't fact checked, then expect to be called out on them. Especially if you present them as facts. This is not a cue for that to the derail the thread. It's there in black and white, anyone reading the thread publicly can see if someone has been corrected. Or made a faux pas. That's usually punishment enough. Having committed your name next to daft comments.


Largely this thread (aside from a couple of individual posts), is a good example of what we're trying to push to the fore. Impassioned debate with real disagreement with the absence of vitriol. We are watching a lot of threads and there might be some posts that run close to what you think is acceptable (they provoke debate amongst the moderators too). However, we need to be fair and we need to allow the community to self form its own standards to a degree. Moderators are not faceless ban-hammers to call into the battle when you're losing a debate. If the tone remains generally civil (bearing in mind we're all human, and occasionally passion gets the best of us), then know when to contribute more, or alternatively contribute less

 

[PtM]

Do you not realize how crazy that sounds?

More lazy than anything else.
To be clear, I can mark text on the phone and select to look up lexical entries for that.

It's not listed in the dictionary. Only in Oxfords online section, which can hardly be classified as "facts".

Is it user-generated content?

 

[OrionFalls]

It's not listed in the dictionary. Only in Oxfords online section, which can hardly be classified as "facts".

Wait, the Oxfords dictionary isn’t an actual dictionary? Well I’ll be fucking damned.

 

[Zoe]

Maybe you shouldn't use words with your own redefinitions, you're risking misunderstandings.

What he pasted is the "redefinition". The term did not originate with positive intentions.

 

[Composer]

They weren't militant. They just had a zero BS policy.

 

[Croatoan]

edit: I would like to say I don't think it was specifically a trans community that made Old gaf toxic. It was more likely the white allies and their incessant virtue signalling in every thread.

As a classical style liberal I can fully understand ones desire to have ones own identity, and I fully get behind your right to do so. But, at the same time, other people have the right to not give a crap as well. Part of the issue with old gaf was forcing beliefs on people and blacklisting, dog piling and banning those that didn't conform.

If you want to say you are asexual that's fine, but "Jim from Phoenix" doesn't have to call you xer in the United States. Does that make Jim close minded? Maybe? But he does have that right.

Personally I only believe there are 2 genders, 3 sexual orientations (Straight, Gay, and Bi) and a Transition state. I have never really met a MtF or FtM person who wanted to be known as Trans. They all want to be called Male or Female (as in the ones they transitioned to). Trans really shouldn't be an "Identity" since nobody should be transitioning forever.

There is a modern problem with this though, Trans HAS become an identity which in turn became the simplest way for certain men to gain a measure of power in the "Oppression Olympics". These "trans-trenders" want the benefits of being an oppressed group without going through the hell of transition (pills, surgery, etc.). Most of them barely even attempt to pass as the other gender but are generally the most vitriolic and toxic on twitter or forums.

These people actually piss me the hell off because they are making life for people who are actually going through proper transition, or have already transitioned, a living hell in some cases.

Then there is the infinite gender types thing. This has nothing to do with transitioning and everything to do with millennials being told their whole lives they are special snowflakes and then growing up to realize they are no more special than the next meat sack. Some of us can't handle that and need to differentiate. Which is perfectly fine. Like I said, thinking you are a pan-sexual demon is your thing, go for it, but don't expect society to accept you as that when 99.9% of the population considers themselves male or female. Also, screaming bigot at them for not getting your pronouns right, when there are thousands of new made up pronouns, isn't doing anything but pissing people off.

I actually think that over time we will see gender roles continue to degrade and the need to be anything more than man or woman will disappear entirely.

 

[dolabla]

They weren't militant. They just had a zero BS policy.

A zero bs policy that consisted of you better not disagree or else, lol.

This forum is a 1000x better with those type of people now gone. No rational discourse (like we're now seeing) was ever going to happen with them since they ran off emotions.

 

[Alx]

What he pasted is the "redefinition". The term did not originate with positive intentions.

It did, actually.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ow-a-dictionary-entry/?utm_term=.f49bda930b57

More than 20 years ago, the term was generally used as a neutral or even complimentary describer. Here’s a clip from a 1991 write-up of a Montreal jazz festival, from the Montreal Gazette:

​

[Quebec guitarist Rene] Lussier will present the world premiere of his ambitious Quebecois mood piece Le Tresor de la Langue, which juxtaposes the spoken word — including sound bites from Charles de Gaulle and Quebec nationalist and social-justice warrior Michel Chartrand — with new- music noodlings.

Baptist minister, the Rev. James Obey Sr.’s, 1992 obituary in the Houston Chronicle was titled, “Social justice warrior dies.” In 2007, “Social Justice Warrior” Monsignor David Cappo was honored with an award. And lawyer-turned filmmaker Ana Kokkinos told a newspaper reporter in 2009 that “what attracted me to law at that age was the idea of being a social justice warrior.”​

But meanings of words come and go with time. Labelling someone as "an intellectual" was also pejorative one century ago.

 

[prag16]

There is a modern problem with this though, Trans HAS become an identity which in turn became the simplest way for certain men to gain a measure of power in the "Oppression Olympics". These "trans-trenders" want the benefits of being an oppressed group without going through the hell of transition (pills, surgery, etc.). Most of them barely even attempt to pass as the other gender but are generally the most vitriolic and toxic on twitter or forums.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but is this really a thing? Are there really men who basically crossdress and say they're trans, and do nothing more towards trying to pass etc etc, and use this just to gain ground in the oppression olympics? Without actually deep down feeling like they're transgender?

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but is this really a thing? Are there really men who basically crossdress and say they're trans, and do nothing more towards trying to pass etc etc, and use this just to gain ground in the oppression olympics? Without actually deep down feeling like they're transgender?

Don't have an opinion on this myself but I've read there are divides in the trans community over this exact issue. Look up truscum.

 

[Rocket Number 22]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but is this really a thing? Are there really men who basically crossdress and say they're trans, and do nothing more towards trying to pass etc etc, and use this just to gain ground in the oppression olympics? Without actually deep down feeling like they're transgender?

Yup it's a thing.

LGBT and then the sub community of "trans" is not all roses. I myself refuse to go beyond LGBT and I only grudgingly use the T because I transitioned....which is the thing, you transition and then the "trans" part is done.

A lot of the alt right eye rolls about trans come from these "trans" non binary people pushing buttons because "Me me me me".

 

[MogCakes]

This is uncatagorically false, Gaf had a very prevalent and vocal militant alt left feminazi SJW community to the point where no matter what the subject, unless you towed the company line you would get attacked from multiple angles and even banned by "impartial" moderators. It was virtually impossible for someone with a functioning brain who could reasonably approach a subject to actually post without getting attacked. In fact I got my tag from participating in a thread full of such users.

Uncatagorically would mean I'm ambiguously wrong, which is a very strange thing to say.

Well, according to dictionaries my claim is wrong. That being said, I think many people weren't the devilish confrontationalists you're describing. Tensions between groups were high, and I think that was the biggest reason for the split. There were some individuals with high presence who engaged in baiting and taunting, but they weren't the majority by a long shot IMO.

 

[Blam]

They weren't militant. They just had a zero BS policy.

So banning talk of certain people that they didn't like was "Zero BS?". Sure keep dreaming buddy.

 

[shpankey]

So banning talk of certain people that they didn't like was "Zero BS?". Sure keep dreaming buddy.

Honestly, it's curious to me how they've justified these actions to themselves. I've always wondered. Now I know... "I'm a zero BS kind of person".

Ookaay :rolleyes

edit: spelling

 

[Blam]

Honestly, it's curious to me how they've justified these actions to themselves. I've always wondered. Know I now... "I'm a zero BS kind of person".

Ookaay :rolleyes

Well it's simple. They've got opinions that the majority don't like so then lets just not allow them to be heard on the site anymore. "No BS" just silencing lol.

 

[Scopa]

Well it's simple. They've got opinions that the majority don't like so then lets just not allow them to be heard on the site anymore. "No BS" just silencing lol.

And history shows us that silencing critical voices always leads to good things, right? lol

 

[Blam]

And history shows us that silencing critical voices always leads to good things, right? lol

Always. /s

 

[prag16]

Always. /s

And history shows us that silencing critical voices always leads to good things, right? lol

Well, when you self-evidently hold the moral high ground at all times, it's justified. -_-

 

[lifa-cobex]

Well, when you self-evidently hold the moral high ground at all times, it's justified. -_-

 

[Blam]

Not like this no this can't be.

 

[Rich TAYLOR]

I agree with OP the old Neogaf was so condescending towards opposing views .. not all of us wanna share a bathroom with a female lol.