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[Griffon]

Nobody should be ashamed of loving the female body.

 

[hecatomb]

Nobody should be ashamed of loving the female body.

feminist would disagree with you, they want females to look like androgynous aliens.

 

[Grinchy]

I wish I could find examples, but since Era was brought up in the OP, I do think it's worth pointing out that they've had threads about attractive male characters in the past.

Why is it ok to have attractive male characters in videogames and to discuss how attractive they are, but it's sexist just because the exact same thing happens with female characters? I don't know how some of the members can go from an 800 page thread about sexualized female characters to a new thread about sexualized male characters and can't see any problem anymore.

I'm guessing the response is some horseshit about the "male power fantasy" or "it happens more often with women" or something along those lines.

 

[hecatomb]

I wish I could find examples, but since Era was brought up in the OP, I do think it's worth pointing out that they've had threads about attractive male characters in the past.

Why is it ok to have attractive male characters in videogames and to discuss how attractive they are, but it's sexist just because the exact same thing happens with female characters? I don't know how some of the members can go from an 800 page thread about sexualized female characters to a new thread about sexualized male characters and can't see any problem anymore.

I'm guessing the response is some horseshit about the "male power fantasy" or "it happens more often with women" or something along those lines.

Its not something you will understand cause you have to understand the mind of a SJW, and its pointless trying to understand their logic, cause they have none.

 

[RScrewed]

Nothing new. Barbie was introduced in the 50s.

One gender's (sex's?) loud subset of people are definitely more vocal about this than the other.

 

[Boss Mog]

I'm a female and honestly this has never bothered me.

Sure, sometimes it has caused an eye-roll or two from me, but to be frank, if the game is well put together and has an engaging story line, then I'm not really bothered by it.

There are plenty of other games where females are not really overly sexualized.....Samus (suited Samus anyway), Zelda herself, and some of the Resident Evil female protags, just to name a few.

I'm not saying it does not happen and that there are games out there geared towards men, but overall you have to just take it as a developer's art direction.

tl;dr - Nah.

If you said that on Era you'd probably be banned. An actual woman voicing her opinion on a subject that's about women and yet they would seek to silence you for having a dissenting opinion. The topic on that board is nearly 400 pages... 400 pages of nothing but mental illness, virtue signaling nonsense and dog-piling of any dissenters.

EDIT: Oh and you used "females" as a noun and Era has a 24 page thread about why that's disgustingly sexist and misogynistic.

 

[DeepEnigma]

So they can put more women out of jobs?

Or harass them into suicide as well.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Nothing new. Barbie was introduced in the 50s.

One gender's (sex's?) loud subset of people are definitely more vocal about this than the other.

And this is the new She-Ra vs. OG.

 

[ipukespiders]

What the fuck is that?

 

[Cybrwzrd]

And this is the new She-Ra vs. OG.

It is really sad for girls that they turned a powerful female hero into a quarterback in a skort wearing a wig. Or is that Cecil from FF4 in a skort?

 

[brap]

And this is the new She-Ra vs. OG.

The left one is gross. How many women do you know that have completely flat chests and broad shoulders? Not many right? Yet another unrealistic standard girls are being held up to.

 

[DeepEnigma]

The left one is gross. How many women do you know that have completely flat chests and broad shoulders? Not many right? Yet another unrealistic standard girls are being held up to.

Remove the flowing hair, and that's a dude. Looks more masculine than Link.

 

[Michele]

Wow, so I see I'm shady now.

I'd like to point out that this is for the sake of other women. I don't speak up for all women, but if you'd asked them, most of them would agree with me to some degree.

 

[cr0w]

 

[ipukespiders]

The left one is gross. How many women do you know that have completely flat chests and broad shoulders? Not many right? Yet another unrealistic standard girls are being held up to.

That's a boy in a wig.

 

[Boss Mog]

And this is the new She-Ra vs. OG.

It was designed by a lesbian in case you had any doubt. Why do so many LGBT people feel that they have to make everything they do about LGBT; especially with a beloved figure of peoples' childhoods. I have a gay male friend and he acts like a normal person and he doesn't really bring up the fact that he's gay unless it specifically comes up. You can have conversations with him without him making it about LGBT. Sadly people like him seem to be a minority in the LGBT community. Key and Peele had a good sketch about this:

 

[DeepEnigma]

I was designed by a lesbian in case you had any doubt. Why do so many LGBT people feel that they have to make everything they do about LGBT. I have a gay male friend and he acts like a normal person and he doesn't really bring up the fact that he's gay unless it specifically comes up. You can have conversations with him without him making it about LGBT. Sadly people like him seem to be a minority in the LGBT community. Key and Peele had a good sketch about this:

That skit.

 

[Grinchy]

And this is the new She-Ra vs. OG.

Sure doesn't look like a teenage boy or anything.

 

[Cunth]

And this is the new She-Ra vs. OG.

That’s a crossdresser

 

[hecatomb]

Just proving my point they want females to look like androgynous aliens

 

[lifa-cobex]

They are not objects, they are peoples, and they want to be treated as such.

I'm still cool with hitting them in fighting games yea?

 

[Cyndane]

If you said that on Era you'd probably be banned. An actual woman voicing her opinion on a subject that's about women and yet they would seek to silence you for having a dissenting opinion. The topic on that board is nearly 400 pages... 400 pages of nothing but mental illness, virtue signaling nonsense and dog-piling of any dissenters.

EDIT: Oh and you used "females" as a noun and Era has a 24 page thread about why that's disgustingly sexist and misogynistic.

*Cue aforementioned eye-roll*

Haven't you heard? In this age of tolerance, dissenting opinions are not to be tolerated. Either you agree, or get out!!

In all seriousness, I try to stay away from conversations geared that way. They never really go anywhere and they never end well. I'm an Admin over at Smashboards and those kinds of threads are usually locked pretty quickly because of how quickly they degenerate into trolling/flaming/harassment.

 

[brap]

Sure doesn't look like a teenage boy or anything.

Holy fuck dude lmao. Looks like a boy from archie comics or something.

 

[lifa-cobex]

Wow, so I see I'm shady now.

I'd like to point out that this is for the sake of other women. I don't speak up for all women, but if you'd asked them, most of them would agree with me to some degree.

i haz all the waman

 

[Silvawuff]

Wow, so I see I'm shady now.

I'd like to point out that this is for the sake of other women. I don't speak up for all women, but if you'd asked them, most of them would agree with me to some degree.

No offense, but "other women" don't need you to "speak up" for us. We can speak just fine, thanks. You have no way of knowing what "most of" women would say, but I venture it's pretty close to what's been said here. Several women in this thread (myself included) already replied to the discussion you brought to the table here saying we don't actually care, and just prefer to play video games without bringing the sexism argument into it. I actively encourage all gamers, creators of games, companies that publish games, and anyone who enjoys games to partake, enjoy, and support it regardless of how the characters are designed. If you don't like the design of something because of some self-gratifying social implications, just don't support it and move on with your life.

I would give more concern to how real women are treated in the entertainment culture sphere, the fictional ones be damned.

 

[mcaleen]

Well, its a game and its a developer's fantasy ... lets stick with that. I never seen or come across any girl who ever complained about it.

 

[Cosmogony]

Ok, so recently, this controversary has been getting a bit more traction in some parts of the Internet. Era is the obvious one, but I'm seeing more traction on other forums/sites too. At first I was a bit relucant to talk about it but after some talking I figured I'd get this thread here too. Ahem...

Before I talk, I'd like to say that I'm a male, not a girl. I don't have any 'sexual' personality, whatever that is. I sometimes do review, but there are some games I and other women would criticize, that has nothing to do slut or racism, it has to do with frustration. How are we supposed to combat sexism in gaming, if the biggest thing and examples, which reinforce and reflect the sexist viewpoints - is consistently let slide?

If we have a game, where all dudes like me are covered, and a girl has only the bikini or partially nude and feels uncomfortable, then it's sexist, because it reinforces this idea tht all women are 'objects' and exist solely for pleasure. Like, ew, that's disgusting. The women wants to be treated like goddamn peoples, and NOT for pleasure.

There's nothing wrong with a woman wearing a bikini if a game is set in beach, and the male characters are in their swimming trunks. But to me, I just feel like lately I've noticed that developers are so desperate for those personal things, like boobs, and it just feels like 'Wow, do you want to do this badly? Can't you, like, leave us alone for five minutes?!' If she needs to be undressed, then come on, at least let her wear bras and skirts. It just feels like, 'okay, we get it already, this game is for dudes, and the women are there just for eye candy and pleasure' I'm a male, but this still doesn't mean I can't ask this, for the sake of other women: Can we stop now, please?

TLDR: I (and the other women) feel like the game developers are so desperate, that they actually want to make sexualized designs of the women. It's like they want the dudes to feel pleasure with other women, whenever it be intentional or not, and it's getting tiring and annoying to let the women be simply called objects, thus making the actions sexist. They are not objects, they are peoples, and they want to be treated as such.

Unh...with this long post out now, I'd like to know your opinion, so far about the sexism in gaming.

First off, a note on the title.

Rigour would've had you writing "Why some women criticize [what they perceive as] sexualized character designs" instead. Because, no, it's not true that the criticism you speak of is widespread among women - at least you have not provided any evidence to support the claim. And no, it's not true that the majority of women view sexualized designs are inherently problematic. Thirdly, no, it's not true that most women view sexualization as sexism. You have yet to provide any evidence to back these claims up. And, no, you have not been elected by women as their representative and thus cannot presume to speak on their behalf. These are all your opinions and yours alone.

With that out of the way, let's address their substance.

Definitions are in order, particularly because you seem to be rather confused.

A. Sexism is the belief and/or behaviour rooted in the belief that one gender and all its members are inherently superior to the other gender and all its members.

B. Sexualization is the process and the effects of emphasizing erogenous zones in the depiction of the human figure.

For a game to be sexist (a), it would have to somehow attempt to convey the message that in real life one gender is inherently superior to the other. It is obvious that (b) sexualization is completely ill-suited to that effect. How would emphasizing bosom, buttocks and other parts of the female anatomy in a obviously laudatory way ever be tantamount to declaring all women inferior to all men?

It's self-evidently an absurd claim.

So what's the real root cause of your criticism, then? A derogatory view of sexuality, that's what it is. It's criticism predicated on the belief that sex is tainted, a blemish, that states adults are not sovereign, that deems them incapable of making basic decisions such as to what to wear and whom to sleep with and frowns upon them exercising their freedom. But in fact NPCs and PCs who get the so-called sexualized treatment are uniformly portrayed as adults acting out of their own volition. Why would you have a problem with fictional adults doing what they fictionally see fit? Only a puritanical view of sex masquerading as progressivism would allow someone to point a finger at that.

Another ludicrous point is the attempt to claim that appreciating any given human for having attribute X is equal to reducing him or her to X object. If that were true, appreciating someone's brightness would be reducing her to an IQ object, admiring his artistic talent would be equal to viewing him merely as an art object and so on. Yet these claims aren't ever made, so patently absurd they'd be regarded as. The reason for this blatant double-standard is the same: a world view that deems sex dirty, lesser, shameful, connubial alone. A self-conscious religious residue trying to shapeshift into secular identity politics. That's what it is.

If you don't want to play games with certain traits, the problem is one of the easiest to solve. Don't play them. At all. Don't buy them. At all. Don't promote them. At all. Vote with your wallet. Beyond that strictly personal sphere, you do not get to decide what others should like and how companies do business. What would give you that right? Why would I ever consider conducting myself according to your worldview when you can't make a rational case for it?

Your attempt to stigmatize people who do want those characteristics in games has failed with equal eloquence. You have provided neither a moral nor a philosophical foundation for your views and as such, instead of followed, they can be dismissed without hesitation.

 

[TheShadowLord]

And this is the new She-Ra vs. OG.

would you be fine if there were two she-ra shows? One that appeals to a younger (audience) and another that appeals to an older audience with adult themes?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Wow, so I see I'm shady now.

I'd like to point out that this is for the sake of other women. I don't speak up for all women, but if you'd asked them, most of them would agree with me to some degree.

I do not doubt that at all, but do you think that's more to do with actual constructive free thought, or stuff that's drilled in their heads from social media and schooling/courses? Or a combination of the two?

Some take it as far as to practically deny we are sexual beings, which would deny biology, and would deny the whole premise of them being born. But again, there is radicals in everything, and the extremists tend to be the most vocal.

 

[Wonko_C]

Wasn't Senran Kagura reported to have a very sizeable amount of female fans? (between 30%-40%) And it's a game that looks like this. (Warning: NSFW)

 

[Mojoraisin]

Wow, so I see I'm shady now.

I'd like to point out that this is for the sake of other women. I don't speak up for all women, but if you'd asked them, most of them would agree with me to some degree.

Perhaps in the circles you hang out. Countless female friends have no problems with this whatsoever. You're so convinced that you're right you're setting yourself up for failure. Had a dinner tonight where 5 female friends were present, NONE of them thought this was a problem when i showed them some of the most heavily sexualixed characters from VG. Got quite a few laughs though as they are so over the top it's funny.
Sure, it's by no means a statistically significant sample, but still says quite a lot about the bubble you are in.

With that being said, I don't care that much for heavily sexualized characters at all in VG but if thats what the artist wants to do and majority have no problems with it, it's fine.

Stop dictating what creative people can and can't do. You're making our lives incredibly boring.

 

[TheDuskwalker]

My best friend is female, and like I stated in another topic, she doen't give a damn, and most her favorites are sexualized to all hell and she loves cosplaying them, and has a Morrigan Aensland tatoo.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

If you said that on Era you'd probably be banned. An actual woman voicing her opinion on a subject that's about women and yet they would seek to silence you for having a dissenting opinion. The topic on that board is nearly 400 pages... 400 pages of nothing but mental illness, virtue signaling nonsense and dog-piling of any dissenters.

EDIT: Oh and you used "females" as a noun and Era has a 24 page thread about why that's disgustingly sexist and misogynistic.

All of us would have been banned there and here 1 year ago.

 

[Damigos]

I dont care about women getting objectified in gaming
I dont care about men getting objectified in gaming

Gaming is an art form. If the creator want to show female breasts, fine. If he wants to show penises, fine. Accept whatever the game's creator wants to create. Or just dont, and play something else

 

[The Mad Draklor]

It’s quite simple. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. However, the thing with ERA and social justice maniacs, in general, is that exercising your right to buy/not buy a game isn’t enough. No, they want to control what you can and cannot buy.

 

[Kenpachii]

It’s quite simple. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. However, the thing with ERA and social justice maniacs, in general, is that exercising your right to buy/not buy a game isn’t enough. No, they want to control what you can and cannot buy.

They are called extremists.

 

[Helios]

Edit: OP, out of curiosity do you considerer designs like this sexist as well?

I just love the JoJo part 5 character designs!!!

I'll go a bit off-topic because fuck it, it's JoJo.
When I first started watching JoJo and I saw the direction the art took, I hated it. I loved the Fist of the North Star look and I never understood why Araki would make every character look so androgynous. I always thought I would just stop at part 3.

Well, here I am a few years later enjoying part 8. While it may have lost it's manliness the character design has only gotten better and I think it's partly because of the art style change. And to add to your "sexist" examples:

Spoiler

 

[Dice]

I just want to add something from the flip side which may reveal a bit about what mystifies me regarding all the fuss over these things from others.

I've seen people say: "Ripped male characters don't count as sexualized men because that isn't what women find sexy. It's just a male power fantasy."

To this I want to say:

1. I've seen plenty of women express their attraction for such dudes and characters like that. So however your attraction works doesn't speak for all women and it is in fact sexist to speak for all women like that.
2. Whether women find it sexy or not, it is nonetheless creating a depiction of men where they are all greek gods and it does set a social expectation for men to live up to all the same as expectations of body type for women. You know how I deal with it? I accept myself and only develop my body as I desire and don't care what others think about my body choices.
3. The argument presumes that others finding it attractive is the basis of it creating a social environment affecting you and needing to change it for you to not be victimized by this social environment. However, changing it won't change what they find attractive, so it is literally just ending something because it is their preference and it is not your preference. It is 100% selfish and trying to force your desires to be more important than theirs rather than just not buying something that you don't like, skipping the potential "could you include something I like as well?" step in between.
4. While I can understand the idea of "why can't they just be like normal people? why does everyone have to be hot?" the fact is making all or most of the characters attractive is common in all media. You not liking the "make it sexy" approach is not you being victimized. There are in fact games that take a realism approach, and there are games that go for intentional diversity or even straight up androgyny approach. Not every game has to be stylized how you want for the world to be just.
5. There are many things in every single form of media that I don't like because it advances designs, ideologies, or social sentiments that I believe are toxic, not enjoyable for me, and bad for our culture. Instead of trying to force them to be different or imagining some preferable "what it could have been" version of it to clamor for it to become, I just don't buy those things. If I feel like they are missing a market in people like me and they should know it, I may just simply say "I'm not really interested in this because it seems focused on so-and-so but I enjoy this-and-that" rather than try to persecute them and destroy the product for people who enjoy it as it is.

 

[DeepEnigma]

would you be fine if there were two she-ra shows? One that appeals to a younger (audience) and another that appeals to an older audience with adult themes?

I don't know, I have not watched it since I was a kid. Just noticing trends. Voltron stayed pretty faithful, but I have not really dived into that one either.

 

[Deleted member 713885]

Yes, female chracters are sexualized...

Both male and female chracters are 'fantasy versions' of stronger, faster, wittier, cooler, sexier people.

You dont see many fat slob male characters. Usually their ripped or "cool"

And yeah, some ladies like chiseled pecs and tight abs...but let's be honest, most ways into making a womans naughty bits tingle is a moderately good looking, brave, funny, etc.. male chracter.

So, while us men are aroused visually, creators seem to design sure some male chracters to make women go "mmmm" visually (like Kratos) but most are brave, moderately built well, dashing, funny etc.. types (Drake, Dante)
Let's face it, most straight girls dont get off watching dicks flopping around. Girls in general are attracted to character/chrisma/charm vs. Abs of steel and a mountain of a bulge.

It's all fantasy..
The giant breasted, skin showing woman, or the 5 o'clock shadow, 6ft 165lb Brad Pitt from Fight Club charming guy.

Sadly, many ladies wont have Double D's and a booty you can bounce a quarter off of, and us slobs will be chicken chested, beer gutted, and social awkward and not be making panties drop via our witty jokes and ability to street fight.

These chracters are aimed to make us play better, sexier, braver, cooler fantasy versions of us.

Nobody ugly, fat, awkward, wants to escape into a world where the represented us is the hero.
The only hero version of us is capable of doing is settling for sex with someone less disgusted in us then we are and perhaps the GREAT ADVENTURE of correlating files or washing dishes.

 

[Paracelsus]

I still find weird as soon as progressive politics got into videogames, pretty much all girls' faces got bland, mediocre or outright ugly all of a sudden. Not sexualizing bodies and outfits is a thing, making them ugly another issue altogether. Then again, face makes for most of the appeal of a person, so maybe that's the point.

 

[TheDuskwalker]

I still find weird as soon as progressive politics got into videogames, pretty much all girls' faces got bland, mediocre or outright ugly all of a sudden. Not sexualizing bodies and outfits is a thing, making them ugly another issue altogether. Then again, face makes for most of the appeal of a person, so maybe that's the point.

Seeing Aloy's (Horizon Zero Dawn) concept face, then the final version was pretty cringe. Don't get me started on Mass Effect Andromeda and what they did to the pretty girl that did the face model for the female MC, if I was her I would have been fucking pissed since they didn't do that to the male face model. Face model for Claire in RE2 remake might be getting similar treatment, have to wait and see more of her in game to know for certain.

 

[brap]

Yeah, pretty much all women are fucking ugly in games now. HZD, TLOU 2, RE2, DMC5. Can't let unattractive women feel bad that video game characters look better than them I guess.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

Yeah, pretty much all women are fucking ugly in games now. HZD, TLOU 2, RE2, DMC5. Can't let unattractive women feel bad that video game characters look better than them I guess.

 

[Strife In a Teacup]

The world needs more Conan/Boris Vallejo/old school AD&D type art. Everyone could use a good dose of that.

That way you can have a badass woman who's also hot chopping off demon's/dragon's heads. What the hell is not to like about that? Nothing!

Meanwhile the other side can look at some muscled, glistening MFer doing the same as the above. Everybody wins.

 

[TheShadowLord]

The world needs more Conan/Boris Vallejo/old school AD&D type art. Everyone could use a good dose of that.

That way you can have a badass woman who's also hot chopping off demon's/dragon's heads. What the hell is not to like about that? Nothing!

Meanwhile the other side can look at some muscled, glistening MFer doing the same as the above. Everybody wins.

And his wife has done the same kind of art he has done. On top of her being a former bodybuilder.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

So they can put more women out of jobs?

Just like the Grid girls.

 

[Strife In a Teacup]

And his wife has done the same kind of art he has done. On top of her being a former bodybuilder.

I love Boris Vallejo's art style, and the other guy I can't think of currently. Italian I believe, if I remember correctly.

Keith Parkinson did a pretty good job with stuff like Everquest as well. I really like that style of art.

 

[MayauMiao]

I don't have problem with sexualized characters in video games, just like I don't have problem with violence in video games.

 

[JordanN]

It's not the video game's industry job to police what characters you want to look at.
Sorry, but it's just not right to treat an entertainment medium as your source of social morality.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with criticizing or not wanting to support games you don't like. But if you seriously start treating a bunch of pixels on screen as representing "real people", then your priorities are out of whack.
There's real torture and mutilation of women going on in the real world that should be addressed first. Video game characters aren't capable of suffering behind the LCD screen.