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[Michele]

Original title: Why women criticize sexualied character design
Ok, so recently, this controversary has been getting a bit more traction in some parts of the Internet. Era is the obvious one, but I'm seeing more traction on other forums/sites too. At first I was a bit relucant to talk about it but after some talking I figured I'd get this thread here too. Ahem...

Before I talk, I'd like to say that I'm a male, not a girl. I don't have any 'sexual' personality, whatever that is. I sometimes do review, but there are some games I and other women would criticize, that has nothing to do slut or racism, it has to do with frustration. How are we supposed to combat sexism in gaming, if the biggest thing and examples, which reinforce and reflect the sexist viewpoints - is consistently let slide?

If we have a game, where all dudes like me are covered, and a girl has only the bikini or partially nude and feels uncomfortable, then it's sexist, because it reinforces this idea tht all women are 'objects' and exist solely for pleasure. Like, ew, that's disgusting. The women wants to be treated like goddamn peoples, and NOT for pleasure.

There's nothing wrong with a woman wearing a bikini if a game is set in beach, and the male characters are in their swimming trunks. But to me, I just feel like lately I've noticed that developers are so desperate for those personal things, like boobs, and it just feels like 'Wow, do you want to do this badly? Can't you, like, leave us alone for five minutes?!' If she needs to be undressed, then come on, at least let her wear bras and skirts. It just feels like, 'okay, we get it already, this game is for dudes, and the women are there just for eye candy and pleasure' I'm a male, but this still doesn't mean I can't ask this, for the sake of other women: Can we stop now, please?

TLDR: I (and the other women) feel like the game developers are so desperate, that they actually want to make sexualized designs of the women. It's like they want the dudes to feel pleasure with other women, whenever it be intentional or not, and it's getting tiring and annoying to let the women be simply called objects, thus making the actions sexist. They are not objects, they are peoples, and they want to be treated as such.

Unh...with this long post out now, I'd like to know your opinion, so far about the sexism in gaming.

edit: I want to clarify this for newcomers. If you don't think this is for you, you don't have to partecipate. That is all.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

The women I know don't give a flying fuck about this at all. Just fat betas on the net.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Prudishness in products of entertainment and art has never ended well...

No amount of mental gymnastics will convince rational people that sexy ladies (or dudes) in our entertainment is some kind of Freudian projection of our inner-misogyny toward women, let alone some form of intentional oppression.

 

[Ulysses 31]

Women is a rather broad term, it's usually inconfident women who complain about it.

 

[trufflepigg]

I enjoy playing video games with attractive characters, I enjoy watching movies with attractive characters. That's all there is to it.

 

[Cunth]

Let me ask my wife.

Nope, she don’t give a shit

 

[Fuz]

Just google some cosplay and you'll see how much women hate skimpy characters.

There's a place for everything.

 

[Real]

Is this a joke? Just because you dont like it why should it not exist? If you don't like it don't buy it, it's that simple. I'd personally much rather look at someone who is beautiful than someone who isn't. They don't have to be objectified, you're the one doing that.

Games are fantasy they aren't real, why do all the characters need to be.

 

[gioGAF]

I don't see a problem with sexualized character designs. Why shouldn't developers of a product be allowed to target a specific audience? Should I demand Victoria's Secret caterer to me?

The whole notion that liking a sexualized character design is somehow bad is also ridiculous. Crap like beauty pageants getting rid of swimsuits for "reasons" are so stupid. It is a beauty pageant! Contestants are judged on their looks. The irony is that these so-called moral authorities are telling these other women how they need to behave and what they need to be like.

You as a consumer get to choose. "Hey, I don't like this so I am not buying it." That doesn't seem too hard to me. Just in the same way that I will probably not buy things that are doing things that I don't like. Seems like most of the games I buy these days are made outside of the US, since everything here is mostly about virtue signaling these days, smh.

 

[MDSLKTR]

 

[A.Romero]

I never met anyone in real life that cares about this.

More importantly, I think that the people that are trying to instigate a change in this regard are approaching the wrong industry. Sexualized characters are available (maybe even the norm) in pretty much all media. I think they chose approach other industries before video games. That said, we already know that the music industry and Hollywood don't give a fuck and apparently most consumers don't either.

Wrong battle, wrong industry and the wrong way to approach it. I feel there will be a huge push back soon now that the industry is realizing that pandering to the market section that has that moral code is simply not profitable. Fallout is a good example and regretfully I think BFV will be another.

That said, I'm a 34 yo Mexican dude. I don't have a six pack, I don't speak perfect English and I don't share many of the values that are portrayed in video games. I never cared that Nathan Drake is not Mexican, for example and I'll probably never care that media often uses Mexicans as criminals or comedic relief. It doesn't stop my enjoyment of the product not even one bit. I want to see stories, play games and in general have fun, not see my ethnic background or whatever represented there. I don't need to experience my own life through media, I want to experience others.

 

[Nymphae]

Playing street fighter the other day and my girlfriend laughed at Vs screen with Laura's massive cans popping out. She's not a big gamer, I said "You know there are people who complain about that and think this is harmful to society" and she just laughed and said "But men like it? And it's not real so why do the women care?"

I said that's a great question lol.

 

[Danjin44]

I don't want to live in the world that it wrong to like design like this.

 

[Geki-D]

Ok, so recently, this controversary has been getting a bit more traction in some parts of the Internet. Era is the obvious one, but I'm seeing more traction on other forums/sites too. At first I was a bit relucant to talk about it but after some talking I figured I'd get this thread here too. Ahem...

Yeah, on ERA no doubt but if anything it seems like people don't care about this at all anymore. It was a talking point a few years back but it blew over.

Before I talk, I'd like to say that I'm a male, not a girl.

So you're offended on behalf of other people. Gotcha.

If we have a game, where all dudes like me are covered, and a girl has only the bikini or partially nude and feels uncomfortable, then it's sexist, because it reinforces this idea tht all women are 'objects' and exist solely for pleasure.

Wait, if the girl in the game "feels uncomfortable"? Dude, they aren't real people. Also could you link your source for games causing men in real life to see women as sex objects?

The women wants to be treated like goddamn peoples, and NOT for pleasure.

The women in video games aren't real so what they want isn't really relevant, they don't "want" anything. Now can you show us that depicting women in games in a sexual manner has an impact on real world women?

There's nothing wrong with a woman wearing a bikini if a game is set in beach, and the male characters are in their swimming trunks. But to me, I just feel like lately I've noticed that developers are so desperate for those personal things, like boobs

Excuse me? What actual mainstream games feel like this these days? What year did you actually write this in? I'm not saying none exist, but besides a few obscure and less obscure Japanese games, this is totally not true.

It just feels like, 'okay, we get it already, this game is for dudes, and the women are there just for eye candy and pleasure' I'm a male, but this still doesn't mean I can't ask this, for the sake of other women: Can we stop now, please?

Again, this is not the trend modern games are taking. I'm really assuming you wrote this years ago or don't play too many video games.

I (and the other women)

Who are these other women? Do they actually play games? Do the ones that do actually care?

feel like the game developers are so desperate, that they actually want to make sexualized designs of the women. It's like they want the dudes to feel pleasure with other women, whenever it be intentional or not, and it's getting tiring and annoying to let the women be simply called objects, thus making the actions sexist.

Third time. I think you need to stop playing hentai games on steam and actually see what's coming out these days.

They are not objects, they are peoples, and they want to be treated as such.

No, they don't. Women in video games aren't real people. In till they achieve sentience and rise up, what they want doesn't matter. As to what real women want, the current gaming landscape is perfectly inclusive. There are games that do feature sexualize women, more that don't. If you don't like the games that have sexy girls in them, play something else.

 

[Revolutionary]

Why rational people don't criticize sexualized character designs: because they're not real, who gives a shit.

 

[Helios]

I can somewhat understand your problem when the pandering is too on the nose and catering to horny teens rather than making a good game. I.E. most visual novels. Than again, the answer to that is just : Don't buy it.
At the same time I don't really understand what you mean by this

If we have a game, where all dudes like me are covered, and a girl has only the bikini or partially nude and feels uncomfortable, then it's sexist, because it reinforces this idea tht all women are 'objects' and exist solely for pleasure. Like, ew, that's disgusting. The women wants to be treated like goddamn peoples, and NOT for pleasure.

It's a video game, they are objects in a certain way. Doesn't mean that somehow dehumanizes actual women
You also have pandering on the other side. To continue the Street Fighter examples, what do you think of this?

Edit : I forgot to include my boi Urien

 

[InterMusketeer]

Can we stop now, please?

Stop? With what? All sexualized designs in games?
That's calling for censorship, you know. If you're in favour of censorship, there's no further discussion to be had. If you're not, and you're just asking devs to cater to your feelings, I hope they will keep in mind they're making games for their customers, not to encourage social change.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Playing street fighter the other day and my girlfriend laughed at Vs screen with Laura's massive cans popping out. She's not a big gamer, I said "You know there are people who complain about that and think this is harmful to society" and she just laughed and said "But men like it? And it's not real so why do the women care?"

I said that's a great question lol.

You have a gf? Huh.

 

[Nymphae]

You have a gf? Huh.

Yes?

 

[Isa]

This is ridiculous and a non-issue. My gf has played dozens of hours in DOAXtreme3 for example, she loves the escapist fantasy and (que suerte yo tengo) she actually greatly resembles a few of the characters. In any game she and I play the "chicas" and she goes looking for all the costumes especially the kinky ones. I can't help but feel this is a bait thread though...

 

[Northeastmonk]

My wife points it out more than I do. She seems to enjoy the fact that its there than if it wasn't. I asked her why she played "X-Blades" because I thought it was a crappy game and why didn't she play Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden. She said it was because she liked how the main character wore such skimpy clothes. So she's more interested in the way she dresses than playing Ninja Gaiden with boob physics or better gameplay mechanics? What gives?

Other than that she doesn't really care about video games either way. The females I know who did game, gamed in their past, and they don't really care if they play video games or not. I tried explaining ShenMue to my wife and she said "don't fill me head with useless BS". Sometimes I feel like there is only a small percentage of females who actually care about video games the same way as the people on the internet do. My sister hated video games and I was told by my wife to take "GameStop" off my resume because that will never get me a good job.

 

[Pejo]

I think there's value in your conversation OP, but I feel like you went about it the wrong way by instantly calling it sexist. There are a myriad of reasons why this is done. There's a market for it, consumers want it. There's also plenty of room for non sexualized women in games of all types. But calling for a stop of one thing to force the other doesn't seem like the answer in any sort of art form.

 

[Razzorn34]

It's tiring hearing about this kind of crap day after day, when anything sexy is just accepted in all other forms of media. Why do video games need to be singled out for this? They don't, and the shit needs to stop.

 

[Nymphae]

Wow thanks mods lol

 

[Pantz]

There's more games than ever that have women characters who are not wearing bikinis or dressed over sexually.

Not every game is going to be made for your personal preferences, so vote with your dollars. The more games sold of the type that you like will bring more of those games in the future.

Many consumers do like sexy stuff in video games and suggesting to take that away from them is quite rude.

 

[LucidFeuer]

Ok, so recently, this controversary has been getting a bit more traction in some parts of the Internet. Era is the obvious one, but I'm seeing more traction on other forums/sites too. At first I was a bit relucant to talk about it but after some talking I figured I'd get this thread here too. Ahem...

Before I talk, I'd like to say that I'm a male, not a girl. I don't have any 'sexual' personality, whatever that is. I sometimes do review, but there are some games I and other women would criticize, that has nothing to do slut or racism, it has to do with frustration. How are we supposed to combat sexism in gaming, if the biggest thing and examples, which reinforce and reflect the sexist viewpoints - is consistently let slide?

If we have a game, where all dudes like me are covered, and a girl has only the bikini or partially nude and feels uncomfortable, then it's sexist, because it reinforces this idea tht all women are 'objects' and exist solely for pleasure. Like, ew, that's disgusting. The women wants to be treated like goddamn peoples, and NOT for pleasure.

There's nothing wrong with a woman wearing a bikini if a game is set in beach, and the male characters are in their swimming trunks. But to me, I just feel like lately I've noticed that developers are so desperate for those personal things, like boobs, and it just feels like 'Wow, do you want to do this badly? Can't you, like, leave us alone for five minutes?!' If she needs to be undressed, then come on, at least let her wear bras and skirts. It just feels like, 'okay, we get it already, this game is for dudes, and the women are there just for eye candy and pleasure' I'm a male, but this still doesn't mean I can't ask this, for the sake of other women: Can we stop now, please?

TLDR: I (and the other women) feel like the game developers are so desperate, that they actually want to make sexualized designs of the women. It's like they want the dudes to feel pleasure with other women, whenever it be intentional or not, and it's getting tiring and annoying to let the women be simply called objects, thus making the actions sexist. They are not objects, they are peoples, and they want to be treated as such.

Unh...with this long post out now, I'd like to know your opinion, so far about the sexism in gaming.

Not a mention of the fact that men are more sexualised...you've won ZERO empathy for me.

Also the fact that you say "I" as a male "and other women" makes you character shady and hypocrite...

 

[NickFire]

I think some people are in fact sexist. But I think some people have a tough time distinguishing between sexism and targeting an audience that puts the food on the plate. And some people are just plain and simple hypocrites, who have no qualms with content producers targeting certain audiences they give special status to, but take great objection to content producers targeting the audience who is most likely going to drive 80-95% of the best case scenario for revenue.

 

[ickythingz]

There is not a single real woman who cares about this. These characters are fictional and I am disgusted by people who say that someone does not have a creative right to create whatever they want. People can create whatever they want. If you can't handle this OP, you have other issues you need to deal with before you are allowed to preach to me. People who are unable to handle a the visual representation of someones creative mind are weak and serve no purpose in existence

 

[hecatomb]

Cause women who live in 1st world countries have nothing else better to do? Its not like they try to offer any real help to anyone else but themselves, or complain about minor things that have no effect on them in their daily life.

Like whens the last time you've actually seen a sjw feminist actually help people who need help?

 

[Silvawuff]

I'm a woman, and I don't care about any video game character designs. I do like to see fanservice with guys, which is pretty rare, but eh, whatever.

 

[TheShadowLord]

I can somewhat understand your problem when the pandering is too on the nose and catering to horny teens rather than making a good game. I.E. most visual novels. Than again, the answer to that is just : Don't buy it.
At the same time I don't really understand what you mean by this

It's a video game, they are objects in a certain way. Doesn't mean that somehow dehumanizes actual women
You also have pandering on the other side. To continue the Street Fighter examples, what do you think of this?

Edit : I forgot to include my boi Urien

While I am not the user you are quoting, the closest thing I have seen that come as an objectified male that was also controversial was this one I believe.

 

[Moneal]

OP, you know we had this debate about 20 years ago. It was just over violence instead of sexuality. Do video games change the behavior of the players? The answer then was No, and the answer now is still no. If games can influence the sexual behavior of players, then it would also change the violent behavior as well wouldn't you agree? If so, violence in video games should be the most important target to go after since it much more prevalent than sexualized characters. But again, we had that debate and its now ancient history.

 

[lock2k]

I love these kinds of designs and my wife loves them too. She always laughs when I'm playing with, say, Ivy in Soul Calibur, for example. It's so exaggerated that it's almost a kind of humor.

 

[Snoopycat]

Man there gonna be a lot of tantrums, dog piles, red warnings, mod edits, locks and ban sweeps in this 7000 page thread.

To be serious I remember playing that last Metal Gear game and the girl gets her ass in your face in the helicopter. I liked it. It gave me a laugh but I understand why women get pissed off. If the only women you ever see in video games are just sex objects or there as props for men then yeah, that shit probably gets old fast. Before anyone start getting rowdy, I know there been some great female characters, but there not been enough, there's always room for more Laras and Ellies

 

[ipukespiders]

I'd like to say that I'm a male, not a girl.

.............

and the women are there just for eye candy and pleasure' I'm a male,

Misandrist

 

[Kagero]

It's just a very vocal minority. I could be saving kittens in Burma and some dip shit would have issues with it.

 

[Danjin44]

there's always room for more Laras and Ellies

If you mean the new Lara from TR Reboot series then I would say no. I rather see characters more like Chloe from Uncharted as female lead in western games.

Edit: OP, out of curiosity do you considerer designs like this sexist as well?

Spoiler

I just love the JoJo part 5 character designs!!!

 

[CatCouch]

I'm an artist and this stuff has been difficult to deal with when it pops up since so much of it is rooted in a hypocritical beliefs like sexy men are male power fantasies while sexy women are sexist. There has never been any consensus I can see on what's sexist and what's sexy, there will always be someone complaining a character is sexist if the issue comes up.

I want to see more sexualized art of men and women. Expressing sex appeal in art is great, it's healthy, it's natural. I don't believe it is natural to suppress one's interest in the people they find sexually appealing, whether your gay straight or anywhere in between. I've spent years of my life drawing erotic art and learning about kinks and what turns people on. It's not black and white. It's not something anyone can put a blanket definition on. You can't define what's sexy and what's sexist off of any one persons views which is what I see over and over again. You certainly shouldn't apply politics to it, which is another thing I see people do. Perception seems to taint these discussions from my experience. A gay woman artist posting gay erotic art on Tumblr can be accepted as progressive but a straight artist doing the same thing can be considered sexist (someone used this argument against me once).

I've had conversations with people who didn't like my art and it was just not helpful or insightful. It's usually quite hostile with demands that everything change to fit their view or it's sexist. I get the impression people think their views of sexuality are what should be accepted and things they don't like are "problems to be corrected". It's surprisingly narrow-minded and goes against what I learned in college from all my art classes.

My main take-away from 6 years of dealing with this stuff is the way people address these issues tends to make things worse. The progressive culture going on now is obsessed with subtraction and not addition. Instead of adding more variety of female designs in games they argue about getting rid of the designs that exist. It should be obvious that trying to take away things people enjoy is going to get you push back, especially when it's tied to their sexuality. All the unnecessary hostility towards art that's aimed at stright men only makes it harder to create a wider market for women. I want to see more games like Life Is Strange and less articles on how every Japanese game is sexist. Create more games! Don't attack creators for not creating what you like~

 

[Lightsbane]

I'm fine with sexualized characters (be they male or female) and I'm equally fine with non-sexualized ones. Whatever the creators want to make is alright by me.

And I don't need to know their reasons. They can be creative, they can be financial... whatever they are, they are none of my business. As long as there is absolutely no censorship, I am happy.

 

[Kamina]

Humans are sexual beings, and no matter what sex someone is, they will always enjoy looking at whatever other sex pleases them if they wear sexy clothes. Acting like this is wrong is just unnatural.

 

[B_Signal]

I've known a few women who have commented on sexism in gaming, contrary to what some in this thread think they're neither "inconfident" nor fat.

I'm not going to speak for them though, I can't really. It seems to me how weighted it is is the cause of the problem, A lot of media is sexist and objectifying of women, things have got better and I think they will continue to, gaming will too.

At the same time, I think titillation has its place, it'd be a shame to lose it. If everything is balanced then there shouldn't be any problem with it, and while I'm tempted to say no one would care, I think there will be some that do. There is also every possibility that the kind of games we play will just never appeal equally, it is a shame though if some people feel like they aren't welcome. As gaming gets bigger though I think there's more room for more niches, not every game can be, nor should be, for everyone

 

[Cybrwzrd]

People really need to get over their prudishness.

 

[Shin]

Isn't there a lengthy discussion on the #metoo forum called res, ain't that enough?

 

[Ascend]

Don't confuse women with feminists.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Don't confuse women with feminists.

Yes, how dare you gender them.

 

[JimmyRustler]

I'm a tad bit confused by this whole outrage. Why even? What harm does it do to have sexualized males or females? Since when are games, movies or like any entertainment media educational? Haven't women been treated in films like princesses like forever? If this shit is educational, why do we still have retards sending dick picks and sexually harassing women and not hoards of white knights in the streets?

 

[WaterAstro]

Porn is so accessible, more so than games, feminists should be fighting that instead.

 

[brap]

Porn is so accessible, more so than games, feminists should be fighting that instead.

So they can put more women out of jobs?

 

[Cyndane]

I'm a female and honestly this has never bothered me.

Sure, sometimes it has caused an eye-roll or two from me, but to be frank, if the game is well put together and has an engaging story line, then I'm not really bothered by it.

There are plenty of other games where females are not really overly sexualized.....Samus (suited Samus anyway), Zelda herself, and some of the Resident Evil female protags, just to name a few.

I'm not saying it does not happen and that there are games out there geared towards men, but overall you have to just take it as a developer's art direction.

tl;dr - Nah.

 

[ipukespiders]

So they can put more women out of jobs?

He meant "joining" that instead.