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[Chindogg]

How have I been absurd?

You kinda go out of your way to defend Nintendo a bit too much. Just an observation that I can see others taking as a Defense Force style.

Might want to dial that back a bit in your postings. Just some advice.

Someone has to :/

I don't hide my love of Nintendo. Wouldn't be running arguably the top fansite for one of their franchises if I didn't. Some of the hate Nintendo gets here/around the net is unfounded and is just getting toxic. Some of which is evident in this thread. :/

But I will try to dial it back.

Totally understandable. Just remember that in your fervor you can blur your message. As insane as some of the shit that's been said in some of these threads are, you shouldn't try to match it in defense. Just be reasonable in your arguments.

 

[JoeM86]

You kinda go out of your way to defend Nintendo a bit too much. Just an observation that I can see others taking as a Defense Force style.

Might want to dial that back a bit in your postings. Just some advice.

Someone has to :/

I don't hide my love of Nintendo. Wouldn't be running arguably the top fansite for one of their franchises if I didn't. Some of the hate Nintendo gets here/around the net is unfounded and is just getting toxic. Some of which is evident in this thread. :/

But I will try to dial it back.

 

[botty]

"hate" for any of these companies is pretty much always unfounded. However, when people critique Nintendo for things that most would consider standard features or procedures in today's gaming world it is definitely warranted. The thing people should really avoid doing is becoming apologist, because those people aren't doing anyone favors. If you feel passionate about a company then I don't see why you shouldn't be able to express that and defend them from irrational, and somewhat trollish comments. Just be able to see the blemishes in the way they run things, too.

 

[Log4Girlz]

For every JoeM there's a SmokeyDave/Logz4Girls/Freezie KO/BundysFeet/etc. Absurdity comes from both ends.

Don't make me bare my fangs

 

[Chindogg]

Don't make me bare my fangs

That dog's adorable.

Another company that's similar to Nintendo that I've mentioned before is Apple. Apple is also a company that minimizes the role of their developers and design staff to the public. There are some on Twitter, but they generally keep a low profile. Tim Cook and the rest of the executive staff rarely post, and it's almost always on-message. They've started letting people like Jony Ive speak publicly more recently, but in very managed pieces.

So I don't think Nintendo's position is weird or draconian or whatever. They prefer to let the products speak for themselves, and have a singular voice to their customers and fans. But compared to their closest competitors they seem very backwards, very old-fashioned. Appearing distant and detached with a customer base that lives on social media, rapid responses, and wanting to their products of choice to have personalities they can engage with. Yoshida is amazing in this regard. Sony has done a brilliant job of turning their ship after seeming very out-of-touch during the PS3 era.

The difference with Apple is that they're a very desirable brand, and seen as cool. And when you're seen that way, you can afford to be aloof, to keep up that mystique. Nintendo doesn't have that luxury. When they put a public gag order on their indie relations guy, and when their communications largely only travel in one direction, they're only hurting themselves. They need to be doing any kind of outreach they can, both to developers and to fans and potential customers, not less.

Its interesting that you mention this considering Iwata has stated several times that he'd like to see Nintendo follow more along the lines of what Apple does.

However there still isn't any real evidence that Adelman's been gagged by Nintendo. We really need to put that accusation to rest until there's some legitimate evidence stating one way or another.

 

[eyeball_kid]

Another company that's similar to Nintendo that I've mentioned before is Apple. Apple is also a company that minimizes the role of their developers and design staff to the public. There are some on Twitter, but they generally keep a low profile. Tim Cook and the rest of the executive staff rarely post, and it's almost always on-message. They've started letting people like Jony Ive speak publicly more recently, but in very managed pieces.

So I don't think Nintendo's position is weird or draconian or whatever. They prefer to let the products speak for themselves, and have a singular voice to their customers and fans. But compared to their closest competitors they seem very backwards, very old-fashioned. Appearing distant and detached with a customer base that lives on social media, rapid responses, and wanting to their products of choice to have personalities they can engage with. Yoshida is amazing in this regard. Sony has done a brilliant job of turning their ship after seeming very out-of-touch during the PS3 era.

The difference with Apple is that they're a very desirable brand, and seen as cool. And when you're seen that way, you can afford to be aloof, to keep up that mystique. Nintendo doesn't have that luxury. When they put a public gag order on their indie relations guy, and when their communications largely only travel in one direction, they're only hurting themselves. They need to be doing any kind of outreach they can, both to developers and to fans and potential customers, not less.

 

[sörine]

How many indies are on the eShop right now? Now compare that to the number of indies on PS4s PSN right now and remember Wii U has a year headstart on the PS4. Nintendo can claim they're extremely indie friendly but none of that matters without results.

Also JoeM doing fine work in this thread as usual.

Currently Wii U has more 3rd party indie games than PS4 or Xbox One. We did some counts upthread. I don't expect it stay above PS4 for too long, maybe until next fall. Xbox One isn't catching up at all though.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

They should ask Nintendo directly

I'm calling unintentional but jacknicholsongif

 

[Pikma]

NoA is a fucking mess. I wonder when will NCL start to take it's proper management seriously.

 

[Chindogg]

NoA is a fucking mess. I wonder when will NCL start to take it's proper management seriously.

Care to explain this stance?

 

[Shiggy]

Someone has to :/

I don't hide my love of Nintendo. Wouldn't be running arguably the top fansite for one of their franchises if I didn't. Some of the hate Nintendo gets here/around the net is unfounded and is just getting toxic. Some of which is evident in this thread. :/

But I will try to dial it back.

While I do think you are defending them in a rather excessive way, I don't see why you should stop it, even if I often don't agree with your opinions. After all, you bring arguments and this is not North Korea, where you should be stopped from posting.

 

[StreetsAhead]

Care to explain this stance?

It's fairly well known that a lot of the power Nintendo of America, largely in the form of Howard Lincoln, had in the nineties and early two-thousands has been stripped away. This was in terms of third party relations and Western development teams. Although there have been some improvements lately (I believe it was NoA who came up with TVii, for example) in terms of product development, NoA is now primarily a distribution marketing, and localization subsidiary and seemingly not the most effective one, either.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

So has it been confirmed that this is what actually happened?

I understand if somebody higher up at Nintendo wasn't happy about Adelman's tweet regarding region lock, but completely forbidding him to use twitter seems like it would do more harm than good to the company.

Couldn't they just settle this with a slap on the wrist and clarify to him that it's not his place to question certain rules and regulations?

I don't see what this kind of attitude achieves, and it seems to go against what we've heard from many indie studios about the ease of working with Nintendo.

I'd love it if someone was able to ask Reggie or Bill Trinen about this..

 

[blu]

So has it been confirmed that this is what actually happened?

I understand if somebody higher up at Nintendo wasn't happy about Adelman's tweet regarding region lock, but completely forbidding him to use twitter seems like it would do more harm than good to the company.

Couldn't they just settle this with a slap on the wrist and clarify to him that it's not his place to question certain rules and regulations?

I don't see what this kind of attitude achieves, and it seems to go against what we've heard from many indie studios about the ease of working with Nintendo.

I'd love it if someone was able to ask Reggie or Bill Trinen about this..

Bah. The real question is, have they found the body yet?

 

[Shiggy]

I'd love it if someone was able to ask Reggie or Bill Trinen about this..

If it's true, do you really think they would go out and confirm it? They'd be gone next.

 

[DrWong]

I've been talking with Henchmen Studio - French indies, former Ubi & Quantic Dream staff - these past weeks, they've Monkey Pirates coming to the eShop soon, they were at the GDC invited by Nintendo and their game is now exclusive to the Wii U after a failed Greenlight attempt : they're happy with their relationship with Nintendo, they told me there's great Unity content coming to the eShop and that Nintendo is really helpful. There's no Aldeman here.

This thread is like reading a sensationalist headline. Same for the og article.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

If it's true, do you really think they would go out and confirm it? They'd be gone next.

No, but I think some information could be gained by seeing how they approached answering the question.

 

[Exile20]

No, but I think some information could be gained by seeing how they approached answering the question.

Have you ever seen an interview with Reggie? I think I have seen the strings and the hand up his butt sometimes. He doesnt talk outside what he is suppose to say. He would avoid any questions outside of what is scripted.

 

[Replicant]

One link that I found.

https://twitter.com/Dan_Adelman/status/377630034342596608

Dan Adelman:


Wouldn't be surprised if this is one of the tweets that got him in trouble.

*cringe*

This is why Nintendo will never change as long as the same people in Japan are holding the trump card for every decision the company make. They are hindering the changes required by the company as a whole to move forward to present day instead of getting forever stuck in the past.

 

[Yado]

How odd that people would take this speculative article as fact.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Have you ever seen an interview with Reggie? I think I have seen the strings and the hand up his butt sometimes. He doesnt talk outside what he is suppose to say. He would avoid any questions outside of what is scripted.

If there ends up being a noticeable change in developer relations over the next months I'd hope some journalist or shareholder would be brave enough to bring this up with Iwata himself.

There's already a long list of questions I'm sure people are dying to ask him about what changes he intends to bring to NoA.

 

[sd28821]

How odd that people would take this speculative article as fact.

honestly what were you expecting since this has gone exactly the way i knew it would.

 

[Omnistalgic]

Meh everything doesn't have to be steam...we have steam and runner up imo PS➕...

Nintendo direct pr videos are good enough for me...

 

[James Coote]

Sony can be more proactive about getting the latest shit-hot indie titles on-board because most will port relatively easily. I spent the whole of last weekend struggling to get a pair of wiimotes to connect to my laptop/Unity so that I could demo the Wii-U game I'm currently working on at the local indie dev meetup. Everyone else at the meet had games using DS3/360 pads, which are 99% the way to a console build.

It'll be even worse once I add in gamepad support. When you consider WiiU's unique thing is the gamepad (and wiimotes), it doesn't really serve anyone to have generic indie titles that don't really use the gamepad floating around on the eShop. And as noted with Stick It To The Man, there are no prizes for second place.

Edit: to illustrate: I thought about doing Ludum Dare this weekend with the WiiU, but I can't upload the resulting game or code for legal reasons. Even if I could, no one would be able to download and play it!

 

[Varth]

To be fair, that's because many of the journalists were posting mistranslations of what Iwata said in many interviews/investor meetings, as well as completely ignoring some Nintendo reveals, so what choice did they have. This is the reasoning Iwata gave for the focus on the Direct in an Investor meeting, if memory serves.

Nope, not really. Nintendo always kept a distance with all mags except his own official magazines. Even at a time when Direct wasn't even a thing. Managing to organize something with them back in the day We had a multiplat mag was nigh on impossible.

 

[JoeM86]

Nope, not really. Nintendo always kept a distance with all mags except his own official magazines. Even at a time when Direct wasn't even a thing. Managing to organize something with them back in the day We had a multiplat mag was nigh on impossible.

Ah, I wasn't aware. Though the reasoning I listed was stated/implied by Iwata somewhere as why they went with the approach, if memory serves.

 

[Lesiroth]

Bah. The real question is, have they found the body yet?

Bill Trinen, you say?

 

[Silvawuff]

Nintendo may not like Indie developers because they don't have complete control of their properties. Makes sense to me.

 

[Amir0x]

It's very hard to defend Nintendo sometimes.

 

[The Boat]

Sony can be more proactive about getting the latest shit-hot indie titles on-board because most will port relatively easily. I spent the whole of last weekend struggling to get a pair of wiimotes to connect to my laptop/Unity so that I could demo the Wii-U game I'm currently working on at the local indie dev meetup. Everyone else at the meet had games using DS3/360 pads, which are 99% the way to a console build.

It'll be even worse once I add in gamepad support. When you consider WiiU's unique thing is the gamepad (and wiimotes), it doesn't really serve anyone to have generic indie titles that don't really use the gamepad floating around on the eShop. And as noted with Stick It To The Man, there are no prizes for second place.

Edit: to illustrate: I thought about doing Ludum Dare this weekend with the WiiU, but I can't upload the resulting game or code for legal reasons. Even if I could, no one would be able to download and play it!

Last time I did it, connecting the Wii remotes to the PC was easier than connecting DS3 which required a terrible, terrible driver. I don't know if it's better now, but either way, neither of them are officially supported on PC.

Could you upload the game/code if it was a PS or Xbox game?

 

[WrenchNinja]

Have you played them? When not running in native mode, they're blurry and glitchy as hell. The sound quality is awful and all 3DS features are locked out, including features Nintendo has set as a standard for Virtual Console.

If they were to add them without it, there would be an uproar. Unfortunately, the 3DS is not capable of GBA emulation due to power. The GBA games are actually played through a trick in DS mode that uses all the processing power of the console and the game is loaded solely into the RAM. It's not an acceptable method and charging for it would be morally wrong.

Nintendo want accurate emulation as much as possible, and that's why SNES and GBA games aren't on it. The 3DS just isn't powerful enough.

But this is a discussion for another topic

I've played them and you are exaggerating quite a lot about their poor quality.

They allow DSi games to be sold on the eshop and that gates you from 3DS features. They allow DS games to be played without 3DS features.

The morality argument is a bit silly.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

I knew Adelman from one of the times he came to Spain, he is a fantasic guy. If this is true about Nintendo not letting him talk personally (or online) with more people/indie devs, they are making a major misstep.
I can defend Nintendo on some thngs they do, but that's not to say they also make some stupid decissions.

 

[JoeM86]

I've played them and you are exaggerating quite a lot about their poor quality.

They allow DSi games to be sold on the eshop and that gates you from 3DS features. They allow DS games to be played without 3DS features.

The morality argument is a bit silly.

Evidently not as if Nintendo felt it was a viable thing to do, they'd have done it, and that's really all it comes down to.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

Nintendo's entire management system seems to be a product of a bygone era where locking out consumers of the discussion or process was common. Now, social media allows that interactions and Nintendo STILL shy away from it. They won't let an employee disagree with certain policies with a consumer but they will let Cranky Kong shit up their Twitter for a day as marketing.

 

[James Coote]

Last time I did it, connecting the Wii remotes to the PC was easier than connecting DS3 which required a terrible, terrible driver. I don't know if it's better now, but either way, neither of them are officially supported on PC.

Could you upload the game/code if it was a PS or Xbox game?

Unless you're using Kinect or doing something with companion apps (which most indies aren't), you can just run off a PC build from whatever engine you're using and upload that. The point is more about it being easy to do the reverse.

Must admit I've not tried the DS3 on PC in a while, but I gather it's fairly easy to integrate with Unity or what have you, and the 360 works straight off the bat.

Wiimotes on the other hand, I've had terrible problems with getting more than one to connect at the same time. Windows installs them fine as HID/Bluetooth devices, but wiimotelib doesn't seem to pick them up at all unless some other program has already initiated a connection. I'm currently using a random whiteboard app I found to make that initial connection, but it, and other apps I've tried seem to be only able to connect 1 wiimote at a time (Just found GlovePie, so about to give that a shot). I've been looking at writing my own connection code using 32feetNet bluetooth library but having used it to successfully get the device information, I've got a bit stuck on how to actually use that to create a bluetooth socket connection.

All this on top of Unity being build on a cut-down version of .Net that as far as I can work out, doesn't support bluetooth. That means I'm actually writing a helper program to pick up the wiimote input, and then sending it via TCP socket to Unity.

If you know of an easier solution, or have some code I could take a peek at, that'd be awesome and much appreciated!

What I'm really getting at though, is that all of this is a distraction from actually developing the game itself. And it's frustrating because I'm having to solve problems that have already been solved with the WiiU devkit. Just that I can't take the WiiU devkit out of the office, nor show it to anyone who hasn't signed an NDA.

Don't get me wrong though. I'm really enjoying working with the Wii-U

Edit: Having said all that, just got it working with GlovePie! Maybe developers just like to have a moan from time to time and Sony/MS are more willing to put up with it

 

[StreetsAhead]

They won't let an employee disagree with certain policies with a consumer but they will let Cranky Kong shit up their Twitter for a day as marketing.

Without trying to sound dismissive, um, of course they permit marketing and not dissent from one of their (relatively high up, it seems) employees. For the record, I don't like the 'Tweet as a character' schtick or the silly cat memes and stuff that NoA did, but I can at least see they might think of as those activities being potentially beneficial.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Evidently not as if Nintendo felt it was a viable thing to do, they'd have done it, and that's really all it comes down to.

You actually believe this is a morality thing with them? Really?

 

[sörine]

Evidently not as if Nintendo felt it was a viable thing to do, they'd have done it, and that's really all it comes down to.

This is the worst kind of rationalization there is. Particularly when it comes to Nintendo.

 

[v1oz]

Another company that's similar to Nintendo that I've mentioned before is Apple. Apple is also a company that minimizes the role of their developers and design staff to the public. There are some on Twitter, but they generally keep a low profile. Tim Cook and the rest of the executive staff rarely post, and it's almost always on-message. They've started letting people like Jony Ive speak publicly more recently, but in very managed pieces.

So I don't think Nintendo's position is weird or draconian or whatever. They prefer to let the products speak for themselves, and have a singular voice to their customers and fans. But compared to their closest competitors they seem very backwards, very old-fashioned. Appearing distant and detached with a customer base that lives on social media, rapid responses, and wanting to their products of choice to have personalities they can engage with. Yoshida is amazing in this regard. Sony has done a brilliant job of turning their ship after seeming very out-of-touch during the PS3 era.

The difference with Apple is that they're a very desirable brand, and seen as cool. And when you're seen that way, you can afford to be aloof, to keep up that mystique. Nintendo doesn't have that luxury. When they put a public gag order on their indie relations guy, and when their communications largely only travel in one direction, they're only hurting themselves. They need to be doing any kind of outreach they can, both to developers and to fans and potential customers, not less.

Yes Nintendo is more Apple-like because they genuinely like to innovate in this industry.

 

[AzaK]

Yes Nintendo is more Apple-like because they genuinely like to innovate in this industry.

Although I would say Apple looks at the world and its trends, sees what's there or coming soon and how they can do it better in a simple, elegant way. Nintendo just do the fuck what they want and if it hits with consumers then they're happy.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Yes Nintendo is more Apple-like because they genuinely like to innovate in this industry.

I remember when Nintendo being compared with Apple started way back when the Wii was as it's peak. I remember feeling that it was insane and absurd and more often than not driven by aesthetics choices and the associations of Nintendo games with casual games.

I always feel that the WiiU is the result of Nintendo believing that rubbish without actually understanding Apple at all.

 

[Messofanego]

Is there a correlation with this stance and Wii U ports for Kickstarters? How supportive are they about that, if there are no people to talk to like this Dan Adelman dude (unlike Shuhei Yoshida or Adam Boyes or Phil Spencer or Chris Charla)?

Just another sign of how behind the times Nintendo is with their relations. While every other company humanises themselves to the audience, they're just hiding people that would like to be open about the processes. If these indie dudes can find the time to highlight the tiniest of unreleased games as a shout out on the Major Nelson podcast, this can only be a good thing.

I decided to speak with two eShop developers and one publisher to get some actual numbers. A developer of a 3D action game sold 1,000 units in the U.S., and 400 in Europe in their first month. They're hoping to eventually reach sales of 5,000. A developer of a casual game sold fewer than 3,000 units across EU and NA in six months, but got a similar number in Japan in just one month. The publisher I spoke to, which is very experienced in the eShop space, told me that with the sort of game I was pitching -- an action puzzle game -- I could expect an income ceiling of about $2,000, and I should plan accordingly.

These are low numbers. It's possible for a savvy indie dev to increase those sorts of numbers and break the mold, but not without some serious marketing support and institutional help from Nintendo. Not without a better-integrated store, greater discoverability, and some space to actually talk about their games in the context of Nintendo's brand.

Marketing is the main thing these indie developers need, since they're usually not good at that.

I've received word from a reliable source that Adelman is no longer allowed access to Twitter. You'll notice his last post was in October of last year. Apparently he wrote something along the lines of "I travel a lot, so I feel your pain," in response to someone saying they didn't like the region locking of the 3DS. This was viewed as unacceptable in Nintendo's eyes, so there you go. All they had was that Twitter account, to talk to indie devs. There are no blogs, no casual podcasts, only corporate-created messaging from Nintendo Direct. No more public voice for indie development from within Nintendo. That's it. It's gone.

My sister was listening to some Hiroyuki Sawano music as she's wont to do, and I told her "you do know his music is in that X game on Wii U?"

"Wii U?"

"Yeah...it's a bad name. Sounds like an add-on to Wii."

"It's not?"

And then she was sad about such an awesome looking game being a Wii U exclusive.

 

[Fourth Storm]

Is there a correlation with this stance and Wii U ports for Kickstarters? How supportive are they about that, if there are no people to talk to like this Dan Adelman dude (unlike Shuhei Yoshida or Adam Boyes or Phil Spencer or Chris Charla)?

Just another sign of how behind the times Nintendo is with their relations. While every other company humanises themselves to the audience, they're just hiding people that would like to be open about the processes. If these indie dudes can find the time to highlight the tiniest of unreleased games as a shout out on the Major Nelson podcast, this can only be a good thing.



Marketing is the main thing these indie developers need, since they're usually not good at that.





My sister was listening to some Hiroyuki Sawano music as she's wont to do, and I told her "you do know his music is in that X game on Wii U?"

"Wii U?"

"Yeah...it's a bad name. Sounds like an add-on to Wii."

"It's not?"

And then she was sad about such an awesome looking game being a Wii U exclusive.

C'mon, bro. You set her up with that one. Many casuals and nongamers will never get the distinction. Anyway, Nintendo did botch the message at the beginning, but now I think it's just a matter of popularity (or lack thereof) caused by the myriad of issues surrounding the console (lack of a diverse library, lack of positive buzz, lack of a real crossover title) Years back, even Game Boy Advance would just be referred to as "a Gameboy" - Wii U will always live in the shadow of its father. That needn't be a bad thing - nor do I think that's what is holding it back from sales.

If Nintendo provided a single game or experience (because I'll include peripherals as part of the hardware/software thing Nintendo has been emphasizing) - if they had a single title that reached out to casuals the way Brain Training or Wii Sports did, people would learn real quick that Wii U was its own thing. They simply don't care to know, because Nintendo hasn't given them reason to.