RowdyReverb
Member
If a public official supported legalizing prostitution, imagine all the ways his/her opposition could tear them to shreds over it. It's a very difficulty proposition to defend while remaining electable
Because prostitution sucks for the prostitute under both legal and illegal regimes.
That being said, prostitutes should not be punished. Punish the johns.
That being said, prostitutes should not be punished. Punish the johns.
Because prostitution sucks for the prostitute under both legal and illegal regimes.
I think this is how the law is set up in the UK. It's legal as long as the seller isn't being "coerced" (pimped?) by a third party. The buyer is breaking the law even if they didn't know the coercion was taking place, so there is some legal risk to being a John even though it's generally legal.I would fully support legalized prostitution if no one was being seriously taken advantage of, if it was just a buyer and a seller who were making a transaction that they both felt good about. I don't really see that happening, so I'm not surprised no politician wants to touch it.
What would this even mean and why is it the right answer? Sounds like a halfway house that satisfies neither argument?Should be decriminalized, legal is another thing.
It does? Why? I was under the impression that it's not that terrible in places like the Netherlands.
In the Netherlands, it's a service job with all that comes with it, including the occasional unreasonable and/or disrespectful clients. RetailGAF or WaitstaffGAF probably has a thousand horror stories of how they were treated in a professional capacity... but no one is going to claim that those horror stories are the norm or representative of the average client/guest.
The two things that make it more bearable than other service jobs is 1) the ability to dictate your own work hours (over here, you either notify the club when you're there and pay them for advertising/hosting you during those hours or you activate/deactivate your web advertisements whenever you want) and 2) being able to screen clients before you ever get in close contact with them.
That ability to screen johns is something that goes out the window the minute you criminalize them. Whereas Dutch clients are, on average, far more likely to use their own cell phones, park their cars where the sex workers can see their plates or frequent the same agencies/establishments so they're recognizable on sight, in other countries they take active measures to avoid being identified which makes finding them as suspects or witnesses much more difficult and time-consuming.
Also good luck getting tips about sex workers under duress/suffering addiction or other health problems if clients fear arrest just for calling the cops.
Because it's a dangerous profession.
It does? Why? I was under the impression that it's not that terrible in places like the Netherlands.
Nah it's pretty terrible, sorry
To be completely honest, I don't see how selling your body doesn't objectify it, and this is coming from someone with a neutral view of the whole prostitution sheningan...Sexualization is frowned upon because it goes hand-in-hand with objectification, which by dint of its very nature reduces people to sex objects.
Prostitution is a different matter as it is a person deigning to use their body to make money in the most direct way possible.
These are completely different issues.
To be completely honest, I don't see how selling your body doesn't objectify it, and this is coming from someone with a neutral view of the whole prostitution sheningan...
Whelp depends on the place honestly... my understanding was that one of eindhoven latest major was steering for stopping the prostitution..In the Netherlands, it's a service job with all that comes with it, including the occasional unreasonable and/or disrespectful clients. RetailGAF or WaitstaffGAF probably has a thousand horror stories of how they were treated in a professional capacity... but no one is going to claim that those horror stories are the norm or representative of the average client/guest.
The two things that make it more bearable than other service jobs is 1) the ability to dictate your own work hours (over here, you either notify the club when you're there and pay them for advertising/hosting you during those hours or you activate/deactivate your web advertisements whenever you want) and 2) being able to screen clients before you ever get in close contact with them.
That ability to screen johns is something that goes out the window the minute you criminalize them. Whereas Dutch clients are, on average, far more likely to use their own cell phones, park their cars where the sex workers can see their plates or frequent the same agencies/establishments so they're recognizable on sight, in other countries they take active measures to avoid being identified which makes finding them as suspects or witnesses much more difficult and time-consuming.
Also good luck getting tips about sex workers under duress/suffering addiction or other health problems if clients fear arrest just for calling the cops.
But in France, the abolitionist movement is more left wing and says they are feminist. Even if the end result in more risk for both prostitute and client in French.There's been a sex worker rights movement in the US for decades, but Americans really really hate sex and women, so it hasn't gained much steam.
Oddly I never really gave this serious thought before, but as soon as I did, it makes immediately no sense why it is Illegal...
- consenting adults
- I could sell someone a handshake if they were willing to pay for it, I assume...
Yah, the logic immediately breaks down for me...
Edit: And as OP states, it's "black market" nature/culture does WAY more harm than good...
Edit: thinking of the the pimp "protecting" the prostitute part... It's Illegal to rob or assault someone anyways... let the law handle those situations and take the pimp out of it, just as the pimp would be taken out of the "dealer" role.
I'll repeat my "Why".
BrassDragon argues pretty convincingly.
Because America is weird when it comes to sex. And any politician who was open to legalizing prostitution would be obliterated come election time
Its not just America, its illegal in most of Europe too.
Here is a prominent study on prostitution leading to more trafficking:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065
Generally, the method that works best in regards to protecting the women is to legalize selling sex but make the act of buying sex illegal.
Other issues with prostitution:
- Amount of underage girls
- Inadequate systems in place essentially legalize pimping rather than helping the women in any meaningful way
This used to be my field before I moved to counter-terrorism.
The quoted reports state that legalization means more reports of human trafficking, in other words more discovery. That's a logical consequence of sex workers and their enablers being more cooperative and open with the authorities - suddenly stuff that was underground comes to the surface.
Nowhere is there any credible evidence that the number of actual trafficked human beings goes up or down based on policy measures. The total sum of human trafficking is, in law enforcement terms, a 'dark number' - our best criminologists can only estimate the volume but it's impossible to measure accurately as of 2017.
More discovery does NOT mean that legalization 'leads to' more human trafficking. More discovery is a good thing for those of us who prefer to fight this evil with the clearest possible picture.
But a lot of policy makers and citizens would prefer to have the problem disappear under the rug so we can pretend it's not happening in the shadows.
Whelp depends on the place honestly... my understanding was that one of eindhoven latest major was steering for stopping the prostitution..
Nevertheless, i more or less understand the point..
Still I think that via sex-market we're inherently sexualizing the male/female prostitutes's bodies, but if it's fine with them, sure
Great posts.
So yeah, I don't see why someone would say it sucks when it's legal.
Your posts so far have been really illuminating. Having someone speak from experience on the subject is incredibly valuable.
It's concerning that the study itself may be invalid because they conflated increased discovery with an actual increase.
This paper investigates the impact of legalized prostitution on human trafficking inflows. According to economic theory, there are two opposing effects of unknown magnitude. The scale effect of legalized prostitution leads to an expansion of the prostitution market, increasing human trafficking, while the substitution effect reduces demand for trafficked women as legal prostitutes are favored over trafficked ones. Our empirical analysis for a cross-section of up to 150 countries shows that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect. On average, countries where prostitution is legal experience larger REPORTED human trafficking inflows.
With the movement to legalize marijuana finally making some headway over the last decade, you'd think that legalizing prostitution would be gaining traction as well.
Just off the top of my head, pro-legalization logic seems pretty strong. Anti-prostitution law:
-Is almost entirely based around largely outdated morals rather than facts or science.
-Forces the practice to remain unregulated, increasing the spread of STDs between prostitutes and johns.
-Prolongs the suffering of sex workers at the hands of the pimps who manage them.
-Infringes on the basic right to do as one pleases with one's own body.
-Discourages prostitutes from pursuing police protection and/or reporting their own victimization.
-(As with drugs) Is an issue where the poor face the brunt of the punishment from law enforcement.
-*May* increase the likelihood of a person utilizing underhanded/non-consensual means to obtain sexual gratification.
-*May* increase the prevalence and profitability of truly immoral and reprehensible sex trafficking.
I'm sure there are dozens of other positives that could be listed. All of the reasons against legalization amount to the same sort of nonsense people levied during the war on drugs.
The sad thing is, certain parts of the world seem to be moving in the opposite direction. The French National Assembly voted in April 2016 to begin fining johns 1500 for accepting the services of a prostitute, with France joining Sweden, Canada, Norway, Iceland, and Northern Ireland before it. There are very few developed nations where prostitution is 100% legal (the UK, Germany and Australia are among them).
Why is this not a bigger issue? It seems like common sense that more consensual sex is good for everyone, especially in this antisocial era of every thirsty idiot sending/requesting nudes over social media.
If a public official supported legalizing prostitution, imagine all the ways his/her opposition could tear them to shreds over it. It's a very difficulty proposition to defend while remaining electable
Because prostitution sucks for the prostitute under both legal and illegal regimes.
That being said, prostitutes should not be punished. Punish the johns.
This attitude has never made sense to me, because if you think something should be illegal going after the suppliers is always a better idea, whether drugs or prostitutes. There are always fewer of the former than the consumers, and if you can't reduce demand directly reducing supply is the next best thing.
The problem is that, much like the fable of drug legalization, "just legalize it" doesn't solve all the problems and creates new ones, especially since sex trafficking is a multinational industry. If you legalize it in one country, no matter how good your laws there, you're basically just increasing demand and more women will be exploited somewhere else and trucked off to meet it. It's not an easy problem to solve.
The EU did a study on how to reduce trafficking.
https://ec.europa.eu/anti-trafficki...trafficking_in_human_beings._final_report.pdf
Some of the takeaways were to consider decriminalizing the sale of sex, but criminalizing the purchase (Swedish model). Anyone in trouble would not suffer legal trouble for coming forward. They also found that many of the supposed benefits of legalized prostitution didn't always materialize.
I can't vouch for the methodology, but the EU is hardly partisan on this issue.
Because it's a dangerous profession.
I think that nobody should sell his body for money, but i think that it's hypocritical and detrimental to the prostitutes which are (in the vast majority of cases) victims of prostitution networks and/or poverty to condemn them.
I think the best way to go is actually condemning the users and going harsh against the networks.
I really disagree with the "abolitionist" narrative, i think prostitution is inherently bad. Pornography, in many cases, is not so far from that. I don't see how it's a fear or hate of sexuality. Sex is great. Reducing it as a commodity is bad.
Don't know how accurate it is, but:
You can go to the bunny ranch and go to town.
.
What's stopping states from decriminalizing it themselves?