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Why It's a Bad Idea to Tell Students Words Are Violence (Atlantic)

Arkage

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
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While I'm sympathetic to deplatforming someone as toxic as Milo, this article does a decent job in laying out why some of the fundamental arguments being made in defense of deplatforming aren't good ones to make. It's a long article with many citations to other sources, but here's the important bits IMO.

Rather than trying to protect students from words and ideas that they will inevitably encounter, colleges should do all they can to equip students to thrive in a world full of words and ideas that they cannot control. One of the great truths taught by Buddhism (and Stoicism, Hinduism, and many other traditions) is that you can never achieve happiness by making the world conform to your desires. But you can master your desires and habits of thought. This, of course, is the goal of cognitive behavioral therapy.

....

We explained why we thought that widespread adoption of trigger warnings, safe spaces, and microaggression training would backfire. Rather than keeping students safe from harm, a culture of ”safety" teaches students to engage in some of the same cognitive distortions that cognitive-behavioral therapy tries to eliminate. Distortions such as ”emotional reasoning," ”catastrophizing," and ”dichotomous thinking," we noted, are associated with anxiety, depression, and difficulty coping.

.....

This is why the idea that speech is violence is so dangerous. It tells the members of a generation already beset by anxiety and depression that the world is a far more violent and threatening place than it really is. It tells them that words, ideas, and speakers can literally kill them. Even worse: At a time of rapidly rising political polarization in America, it helps a small subset of that generation justify political violence. A few days after the riot that shut down Yiannopoulos's talk at Berkeley, in which many people were punched, beaten, and pepper sprayed by masked protesters, the main campus newspaper ran five op-ed essays by students and recent alumni under the series title ”Violence as self defense." One excerpt: ”Asking people to maintain peaceful dialogue with those who legitimately do not think their lives matter is a violent act."

The implication of this expansive use of the word ”violence" is that ”we" are justified in punching and pepper-spraying ”them," even if all they did was say words. We're just defending ourselves against their ”violence." But if this way of thinking leads to actual violence, and if that violence triggers counter-violence from the other side (as happened a few weeks later at Berkeley), then where does it end? In the country's polarized democracy, telling young people that ”words are violence" may in fact lead to a rise in real, physical violence.

.....

Rauch contrasts Liberal Science with the system that dominated before it—the ”Fundamentalist" system—in which kings, priests, oligarchs, and others with power decide what is true, and then get to enforce orthodoxy using violence. Liberal Science led to the radical social invention of a strong distinction between words and actions, and though some on campus question that distinction today, it has been one of the most valuable inventions in the service of peace, progress, and innovation that human civilization ever came up with. Freedom of speech is the eternally radical idea that individuals will try to settle their differences through debate and discussion, through evidence and attempts at persuasion, rather than through the coercive power of administrative authorities—or violence.

https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...ea-to-tell-students-words-are-violence/533970
 

Sunster

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Aug 28, 2015
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Frozenprince

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Sep 26, 2013
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"Kids need to know the world is a shit plave full of shit people" has always been a stupid rebuttal.

Not to mention that Milo degraded and debased a trans woman so utterly by publicly shaming her in front of all her peers include sexually harassing her in public.

But hey.

Not like he's hurting anybody right? Nothing violent about talking how he wants to rape a trans woman.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Jun 18, 2009
62,408
10
1,115
Uhm...these kids aren't getting to college uneducated about this stuff already. I'm pretty sure if you're a black kid you're already well acquainted with bigotry by 18. This isn't about not wanting to learn
 

Zelenogorsk

Banned
Mar 14, 2013
1,629
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Missouri
Reminds me of the time I was 16 and complaining to my mom about the boss at my job being an asshole, she told me "life is full of assholes, so you better get used to it."
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Jun 18, 2009
62,408
10
1,115
Yeah I'm reading the full piece and I feel like...its still making the mistake a lot of these pieces seem to? These are not exactly sheltered kids who are going outside their bubbles for the first time and discovering how big and mean the real world is. These are often kids who have put up with a ton of bullshit in their lives so far and for the very first time are in any sort of arena where they can say "no this is not acceptable"
 

Frozenprince

Banned
Sep 26, 2013
31,941
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Pretty sure I didn't need people screeching their hate rhetoric to know that I was nothing more than a no good mongrel faggot to a sizable portion of the country.
 

benicillin

Banned
Mar 31, 2012
5,306
0
0
I would take these stories more seriously if it wasn't just authors re-writing the same stories again and again (they've written basically the same thing for the Atlantic previously) and wasn't coming from people associated with FIRE.

It paints an unrealistic view of what college is actually like to further their weird anti-liberal agenda.
 

Ogodei

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Apr 13, 2015
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These folks don't get the idea that some words have a very direct line to actions. Direct incitement is already understood to be speech that can be regulated without a chilling effect, *some* of the speech that the article talks about here is in the same category. Certainly Milo's stuff could be construed as incitement because he understands that the mob doesn't need to be a physical mob, the twitter mob does just as well.

Incitement to harassment should certainly be seen as a thing worth damning, both in regards to internet trolls and people who take internet troll tactics out into meatspace. You don't reason with the trolls, and ignoring them doesn't work. You ban them off the website, you censure them in an appropriate manner in meatspace.
 

Misha

Banned
Apr 21, 2015
8,596
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What would have happened had Yiannopoulos been allowed to speak at Berkeley? He would have faced a gigantic crowd of peaceful protesters, inside and outside the venue. The event would have been over in two hours. Any students who thought his words would cause them trauma could have avoided the talk and left the protesting to others.

I'm not sure they know who Milo is. He isn't just a guy who says shitty things, He singles out people who can easily be hurt and leaves them open for attack from other awful people.
 

Deepwater

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Aug 25, 2016
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also, I wish we would stop framing college as an example of trial by fire that everyone has to go through in order to make it in the "real world". It's problematic for a number of reasons but in particular if I say "hey can you guys stop calling me nigger and work on your microaggressions" and you say "wow if this bothers you how are you gonna survive in the real world"

So now suddenly the real world means getting subjected to offensive comments that AREN'T appropriate in "the real world". Half of the stuff that can be platformed on a college campus would get you fired from an actual job. It's pretty disingenuous to imply that by wanting a more humane society and community for 4+ years that people are pampered kids wanting to shield themselves from the harsh realities of the world.
 

Hackworth

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May 20, 2014
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From what I've seen, being mistreated, even if it's just words, directly links to mental illness and suicide. Being constantly told you're a waste ruins people emotionally.

Also, inciting people against an out-group in the way America's Republicans seem to constantly do justifies harm against members of that out-group in the eyes of the public. It's less direct than the mental illness link but if you look at who gets hurt by random violence it's significantly less cis white dudes than you'd expect considering population sizes.

So, I mean, I get that words aren't directly violence but it's more complicated than "liberal snowflakes want to stop perfectly reasonable free speech for no reason".

While I'm complaining, literally none of the stuff Yiannopoulos says is new or interesting, and claiming he has to be allowed to speak because he's pushing the boundaries or whatever is dumb as hell. The guy is a professional shitcunt, he picks targets that people already marginalize, and he's been doing that for like five years.
 

shawnbuddy

Member
Jul 28, 2015
3,109
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If you try to hide or censor this stuff people still do it, they just get underground and sneaky. I saw a picture from a German Neo Nazi music festival that drew 6,000 people yesterday, and people were wearing "sneaky" shirts with stuff like "HITLR" on them.

Don't punch them to shut them up. Let 'em say it in public and wear their uniforms so we can educate against them. At some point there may be a time when we need to punch them to stop actions and they will be a lot easier to identify.
 

IrishNinja

Member
May 12, 2009
40,052
9
1,150
"Kids need to know the world is a shit plave full of shit people" has always been a stupid rebuttal.

Not to mention that Milo degraded and debased a trans woman so utterly by publicly shaming her in front of all her peers include sexually harassing her in public.

But hey.

Not like he's hurting anybody right? Nothing violent about talking how he wants to rape a trans woman.

Uhm...these kids aren't getting to college uneducated about this stuff already. I'm pretty sure if you're a black kid you're already well acquainted with bigotry by 18. This isn't about not wanting to learn

as always, consider the source and react accordingly.

I would take these stories more seriously if it wasn't just authors re-writing the same stories again and again (they've written basically the same thing for the Atlantic previously) and wasn't coming from people associated with FIRE.

It paints an unrealistic view of what college is actually like to further their weird anti-liberal agenda.

four & done here
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
Oct 30, 2007
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So this article is a bit silly.

It's saying that physical violence is an escalation from wrods. Which is generally true.

You can also escalate different types of physical violence.

Just using a word doesn't mean people can't evaluate degrees.
 

Dr.Acula

Banned
May 12, 2006
16,300
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Why should Milo get to speak? Does he do original research that advances the field? Is he an author whose works are a focus of study? Is he a pioneer in an emergent industry?

Are our standards for who should be invited to speak on campuses so low? Milo is literally anybody. He's not notable for reasons other than being controversial, certainly not for his research or findings, which don't stand up to any kind of scholarly analysis.
 

Cagey

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Jul 28, 2011
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A discussion of the perils in expanding the definition of violence to include speech given the commonly understood meaning of violence (and thus conflating the two), and the rather insightful observation that the term "microaggression" achieves the same subtle conflation by using the word aggression, is interesting.

A discussion of the alleged dangers in banning this Milo dope from campus, not so much.
 

crisdecuba

Member
Jun 11, 2004
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Just going by the title, I agree that speech should not be considered "violence," given how the word is generally understood.
 

kamineko

Does his best thinking in the flying car
Oct 7, 2014
5,245
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yes, we need to make sure these underprivileged folks understand what oppressive language sounds like.

how else could they ever know

/s
 

Nepenthe

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Mar 14, 2016
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Who better to pen yet another article telling minorities- of all people- they need to toughen up against and "tolerate" the oppressive ideas and rhetoric they've encountered beforehand in their lives than one white guy?

Two white guys.
 

Palette Swap

Member
May 13, 2009
12,826
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That place there.
I don't know if the author is stupid, disingenuous or both, but they should go tell this :
Any students who thought his words would cause them trauma could have avoided the talk and left the protesting to others.

The argument works only if Berkeley students experience their school as a “harsh environment,” a “culture of constant, casual brutality” in which they are chronically “worrying about [their] safety.” Maybe that is the perception of some students. But if so, is the solution to change the school or to change the perception?

to the person on the receiving end of this:

On Tuesday, alt-right troll Milo Yiannopoulos made yet another stop on his tour of colleges and universities across the country. He spoke at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, where he was invited by a conservative student group, and he used his platform to mock a transgender student, displaying her name and photo prominently onscreen.

In critiquing leftist criticism of the phrase “man up,” Yiannopoulos said around the 49:52 mark, “I’ll tell you one UW-Milwaukee student that does not need to man up.” He then showed the student’s photo. “Have any of you come into contact with this person?” he asked. “This quote unquote nonbinary trans woman forced his way into the women’s locker rooms this year.” He went on:

“I see you don’t even read your own student media. He got into the women’s room the way liberals always operate, using the government and the courts to weasel their way where they don’t belong. In this case he made a Title IX complaint. Title IX is a set of rules to protect women on campus effectively. It’s couched in the language of equality, but it’s really about women, which under normal circumstances would be fine, except for how it’s implemented. Now it is used to put men in to women’s bathrooms. I have known some passing trannies in my life. Trannies — you’re not allowed to say that. I’ve known some passing trannies, which is to say transgender people who pass as the gender they would like to be considered.”
He then referred to the photo, which was still onscreen, and said, “Well, no. The way that you know he’s failing is I’d almost still bang him.” The audience laughed.

Maybe Milo is a fucking terrible hill to die on and the real question is why any campus tolerated him afterwards.

If the point was to make an nth article about safe spaces, trigger warnings, snowflakes, etc, Milo was a bad example to use, and generally speaking, these articles focus so much on their ideal of white well-off liberal arts students with a tumblr account that they throw under the rug the minorities who've been eating shit sandwiches every day of their life, and don't need a lecture on toughness.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
Oct 30, 2007
12,845
1
1,050
A discussion of the perils in expanding the definition of violence to include speech given the commonly understood meaning of violence (and thus conflating the two), and the rather insightful observation that the term "microaggression" achieves the same subtle conflation by using the word aggression, is interesting.

A discussion of the alleged dangers in banning this Milo dope from campus, not so much.

It's still a silly argument. Brains can still distinguish between physical or verbal violence or aggression.
 
Jul 26, 2013
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Interesting article, thanks OP. I especially liked this line:

Free speech, properly understood, is not violence. It is a cure for violence.

I'm also interested in checking out that iGen book come August, especially as someone looking to start a family in the near future. If anxiety, depression and suicide are on the rise among America's youth, then that should be alarming for everyone.
 

Cagey

Banned
Jul 28, 2011
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0
600
It's still a silly argument. Brains can still distinguish between physical or verbal violence or aggression.

Words matter. Whether intentional or not, the issue is about conditioning a person to associate one concept with another.

A non-black person asking to touch a black coworker's afro, unaware of the issues with the request, is now defined as a microaggressive act.

What's aggression? A hostile or forceful act or behavior, synonymous with assault or combativeness or fighting in general.

From the jump, the act has been framed as aggressive (i.e. hostile or forceful act, a combative act, an assault) without needing to explain the how/why or provide justification for calling the act aggressive. And why is that? Because of the terminology used.
 

Night Angel

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Aug 18, 2013
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The main dangerous reasoning I've seen on this board and elsewhere is condoning real violence against people with shitty opinions. That's not something I can get behind.
 

lobdale

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Sep 16, 2005
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I think the knee jerk reactions in this thread maybe missed the parts of the article where they specifically say they are not talking about verbal threats of violence, intimidation, and incitement.
 

Deepwater

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Aug 25, 2016
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I think the knee jerk reactions in this thread maybe missed the parts of the article where they specifically say they are not talking about verbal threats of violence, intimidation, and incitement.

I think you missed the part where they used Milo as an example of speech that needed to be tolerated. It's essentially just one big "ignore the trolls in real life and they go away eventually" piece.
 

Joe T.

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Oct 3, 2004
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Who better to pen yet another article telling minorities- of all people- they need to toughen up against and "tolerate" the oppressive ideas and rhetoric they've encountered beforehand in their lives than one white guy?

Two white guys.

"I don’t want you to be safe, ideologically. I don’t want you to be safe, emotionally. I want you to be strong. That’s different. I’m not going to pave the jungle for you. Put on some boots, and learn how to deal with adversity. I’m not going to take all the weights out of the gym; that’s the whole point of the gym. This is the gym." -Van Jones

He isn't white.

I can't say I disagree, but I am white, so it would seem that my opinion is void by default here. I am, however, genuinely curious as to why so many on American college campuses would feel they need to be sheltered, in case anyone wants to actually discuss the topic rather than dismiss it outright. Are campuses there filled with so many racists, sexists and xenophobes that life for minorities, women and members of the LGBT community becomes practically impossible? One would hope students were a little more open minded and could find creative ways of getting around their differences if the direct approach failed.

I'm a Gen X'er so the whole idea of safe spaces is foreign to me.
 

Par Score

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Dec 6, 2014
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This article fails in the same way all the others do.

It's core argument can be boiled down to: LGBT* kids (who've often grown up getting abused both physically and verbally) should not be allowed a place where they can be safe from physical and verbal abuse.

If you are making that argument, then you're probably an asshole.


*Insert marginalised group of your choice here.

I can't say I disagree, but I am white, so it would seem that my opinion is void by default here. I am, however, genuinely curious as to why so many on American college campuses would feel they need to be sheltered, in case anyone wants to actually discuss the topic rather than dismiss it outright. Are campuses there filled with so many racists, sexists and xenophobes that life for minorities, women and members of the LGBT community becomes practically impossible? One would hope students were a little more open minded and could find creative ways of getting around their differences if the direct approach failed.

Why does our life need to be impossible before it become a problem? Why are you going to bat for the racist, sexist, homophobic bigots instead of fighting in the corner of their victims?
 

Glass Shark

Banned
Feb 24, 2013
9,967
24
525
“Asking people to maintain peaceful dialogue with those who legitimately do not think their lives matter is a violent act.”

I actually agree with this statement. But I also don't think it is necessarily right or prudent to repay violence with violence.
 

Dynasty

Member
Apr 6, 2015
2,679
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270
England
The whole Milo situation of him not speaking at the College was a interesting situation for me, my posistion shifted as I learnt more, ended up with this posistion.

While I agree Milo shouldnt talk at colleges(this is due to his past behaviour of harrassing a trans student at a previous college) I dont agree with violence being used as the way to stop him from speaking(This is because it gives more publicity to Milo and allows him to support his idea of the intolerant left). But then I wonder what method would have stopped Milo from talking. If Milo was allowed to talk, there would be a chance he would single people out, painting a target. From this I can genuinely see a case for self defense if the students were aware of Milo's previous actions. Do the ends justify the means in this case? This is a question I go back and forth on tbh and am still thinking about.
In the end I say the fault lies with the college who allowed Milo to attend in the first place. They potentially endangered students by allowing Milo to come as a speaker, who has a track record of harrassing students, they either did this knowing his track record(and thought it wasnt a big deal) or invited unknowningly(which shows incompetence)
 

benicillin

Banned
Mar 31, 2012
5,306
0
0
"I don’t want you to be safe, ideologically. I don’t want you to be safe, emotionally. I want you to be strong. That’s different. I’m not going to pave the jungle for you. Put on some boots, and learn how to deal with adversity. I’m not going to take all the weights out of the gym; that’s the whole point of the gym. This is the gym." -Van Jones

He isn't white.

I can't say I disagree, but I am white, so it would seem that my opinion is void by default here. I am, however, genuinely curious as to why so many on American college campuses would feel they need to be sheltered, in case anyone wants to actually discuss the topic rather than dismiss it outright. Are campuses there filled with so many racists, sexists and xenophobes that life for minorities, women and members of the LGBT community becomes practically impossible? One would hope students were a little more open minded and could find creative ways of getting around their differences if the direct approach failed.

I'm a Gen X'er so the whole idea of safe spaces is foreign to me.

You don't know anything about American college campuses (they aren't full of people wanting to be sheltered) and you're quoting Van "Trump just became president" Jones because he's black, not because he has anything enlightening to say.
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
Nov 23, 2015
31,114
138
475
New Jersey
I think the knee jerk reactions in this thread maybe missed the parts of the article where they specifically say they are not talking about verbal threats of violence, intimidation, and incitement.

Then they probably shouldn't have talked so much about Milo as that totally underwrites that point.
 

Deepwater

Member
Aug 25, 2016
1,942
3
65
"I don’t want you to be safe, ideologically. I don’t want you to be safe, emotionally. I want you to be strong. That’s different. I’m not going to pave the jungle for you. Put on some boots, and learn how to deal with adversity. I’m not going to take all the weights out of the gym; that’s the whole point of the gym. This is the gym." -Van Jones

He isn't white.

I can't say I disagree, but I am white, so it would seem that my opinion is void by default here. I am, however, genuinely curious as to why so many on American college campuses would feel they need to be sheltered, in case anyone wants to actually discuss the topic rather than dismiss it outright. Are campuses there filled with so many racists, sexists and xenophobes that life for minorities, women and members of the LGBT community becomes practically impossible? One would hope students were a little more open minded and could find creative ways of getting around their differences if the direct approach failed.

I'm a Gen X'er so the whole idea of safe spaces is foreign to me.

Van Jones "this is moment Trump became president" Van Jones?
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Sep 20, 2014
32,454
9
525
Burnaby, BC
"I don’t want you to be safe, ideologically. I don’t want you to be safe, emotionally. I want you to be strong. That’s different. I’m not going to pave the jungle for you. Put on some boots, and learn how to deal with adversity. I’m not going to take all the weights out of the gym; that’s the whole point of the gym. This is the gym." -Van Jones

He isn't white.

I can't say I disagree, but I am white, so it would seem that my opinion is void by default here. I am, however, genuinely curious as to why so many on American college campuses would feel they need to be sheltered, in case anyone wants to actually discuss the topic rather than dismiss it outright. Are campuses there filled with so many racists, sexists and xenophobes that life for minorities, women and members of the LGBT community becomes practically impossible? One would hope students were a little more open minded and could find creative ways of getting around their differences if the direct approach failed.

I'm a Gen X'er so the whole idea of safe spaces is foreign to me.

Safe spaces are a several decades old concept so nice try in making it out to be some silly Millenial thing.
 

Seesaw15

Member
Jun 5, 2014
3,502
0
310
"I don’t want you to be safe, ideologically. I don’t want you to be safe, emotionally. I want you to be strong. That’s different. I’m not going to pave the jungle for you. Put on some boots, and learn how to deal with adversity. I’m not going to take all the weights out of the gym; that’s the whole point of the gym. This is the gym." -Van Jones

He isn't white.

I can't say I disagree, but I am white, so it would seem that my opinion is void by default here. I am, however, genuinely curious as to why so many on American college campuses would feel they need to be sheltered, in case anyone wants to actually discuss the topic rather than dismiss it outright. Are campuses there filled with so many racists, sexists and xenophobes that life for minorities, women and members of the LGBT community becomes practically impossible? One would hope students were a little more open minded and could find creative ways of getting around their differences if the direct approach failed.

I'm a Gen X'er so the whole idea of safe spaces is foreign to me.
Did I miss the memo? Is Van "Nothing Burger" Jones the new MLK? Lol
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
May 21, 2006
17,232
4
0
The heart of this argument is basically that anxiety and depression aren't real, they're just made up things because people got coddled and given participation awards. I don't think mental health professionals would agree, so it's difficult to continue the inference.