Why so many Trump supporters are OK with the president's lies

Baruch.S

Neo Member
Oct 31, 2018
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#52
Disputing the premise is not the same as not understanding it. Here's what I know about whataboutism: that it's a vacant pejorative coined as a defense against hypocrisy; that it is, objectively, a way of disregarding inconvenient information to better soothe the egos of losers; that it reduces a domain of political dissent to something easier for morons to understand like "the Soviets Russians did it". I also know that the only reason you are so familiar with this unctuous artifact of liberal sophistry is because it's part of a whole lexicon of redbaiting jargon--along with "authoritarian" and "tankie"--dusted off in the wake of the election as a way for the malingering Democratic establishment to stave off their obvious come-to-Jesus moment.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=whataboutism
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=tankie
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=authoritarian

Your whole ideology is fake news. Excuse me if I fail to respect the insight of someone who's worldview is newer than my car. I could fill this thread with words you don't understand and I wouldn't even have to go back farther than my birthday.
You're trying way too hard, and honestly, what you're infering is stupid. It's not because a word or a concept was or is used within at a certain time, by a certain group for a certain purpose that it despoil it of its meaning.
Here, i'll help you:

When you deflect critisism by pointing out flaws in your opponent, specifically using the phrase "what about x?" This is an attempt to excuse you from changing you behaviour by painting your opponent as a hypocrite.

And that last paragraph, you're so defensive and come off as insecure. Stop impersonating an intelligent person you're not lmao.
 
Sep 4, 2018
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#53
feel like every year from 2016 now until 2024 will be these coastal idiots telling us they know the minds of people who they so openly despise. amazingly they are entirely oblivious to the very harm they are doing by perpetuating in this constant intellectual ego stroking.

a big problem is this writer directly using a religion as a target, then cherry picking from a strawman of it to suit whatever agenda he has already determined before starting the piece. he complains that the ten commandments say do not lie, but Trump lies, so how can they vote for him? lying is a sin. no duh, California journalist dude.

evangelicals tolerate Trump's sins because ultimately nobody is free from sin. sin is part of worldly existence, everyone is born into sin, and this is why people have to be "saved". these are all fundamental teachings of especially evangelical Christianity. Jesus died for everyone's sins. everyone has sins. let's say it again slowly for the journalists: "everyone sins". evangelicals wouldn't imagine ANY person to be free of sin, unless they were a saint, or proclaimed to be the second coming of Christ. then again this writer isn't arguing in good faith. lol faith

ironically the point is that evangelicals tolerate him because they are not ideologues who must believe 100% of everything the politician says and follow every word he utters and action he performs. they grok the realities of a compromised political system, where all thought and nuance and philosophy is distilled into a binary choice of 0 or 1, and they make a practical choice. lots of people do this. it used to be that voting was a personal thing, you didn't discuss your vote. now everyone is a fucking armchair mindreader.

tbh the loudest people with an apocalypse fixation seem to be the Climate Cultists.
 
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Mar 6, 2018
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#54
Look I appreciate the effort and grand standing that goes in your answers, but the fact is that you dont seem to understand what whataboutism is. Most of what people people said in this thread is not wrong, but it doesn't rebut or adress the OP.
You want to argue with me but you do not understand the premise.
Here, i'll help you:

When you deflect critisism by pointing out flaws in your opponent, specifically using the phrase "what about x?" This is an attempt to excuse you from changing you behaviour by painting your opponent as a hypocrite.

A while back, I wrote this, which I'll post again here:

There is no such thing as "whataboutism," as long as you either:

Condemn both examples, defend both examples, or make an argument as to why someone is being hypocritical. Of all the argumentative buzzwords to gain popularity recently, that just might be the absolute dumbest of all of them.

Saying "but all politicians lie" isn't a whataboutism, as long as in doing so they're either defending all lies, condemning all lies, or making an argument as to which lies are worst or who is lying more, which is what several people in this thread are already doing.

So make an argument, and have a debate. Better yet, actually ask a religious person why they support Trump, and I'm sure they'll give you an answer something to the effect that they thought Hillary would be worse for the country. Just like a lot of Hillary voters might not have picked her as their first choice, but they would gladly take her over Trump. But that doesn't mean "how could you support Hillary if you're anti-war?" is some argumentative win button that should see everyone renouncing their world view and political affilation.

Much more likely you'd hear, "yeah, I don't like that about her, but at least she isn't Trump." And the same is true of religious Trump voters. Why wouldn't it be?
 
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Mar 4, 2014
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#56
I don’t care for Trump and him being dishonest is part of that. “Embellishing” has always been a part of his shtick.

With that said, these fact checkers are often a joke. They do rightfully point out outright lies but when Trump says something true, it is often reported as “partially true”, “misleading”, or “lacks context”. So I don’t blame people for ignoring Politifact and other fact checkers.

At the end of the day, let’s not act as if Trump supporters are only people who eat up politican lies. Most people do. There is a reason almost every Republican believes that any Democrat accused in a scandal is guilty and any Republican accused in a scandal is innocent and just the victim of a witch hunt. The opposite holds true for Democrats (Republicans are ALWAYS guilty and Democrats are ALWAYS innocent). Most people believe what they want to believe and choose what facts they want to believe and what news they want to consume based on whatever they already believe. It’s one of the reasons why our politics are such a mess in the era of social media.
 
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#57
The first 'study' they cited included 254 people. That's simply not a large enough sample size when attempting to make determinate statements about subgroups (double digit margins of error are not highly thought of.) The second 'study' they cited, they didn't even bother to provide any specifics on other than 'it kind of agreed with the first.' And, to quote the article itself, 'The researchers caution that these findings should not be overstated: Lying on the part of politicians was considered morally wrong by most people across the ideological spectrum.'

tl;dr - what you posted was dumb and you should feel bad
 

wzy

Member
Dec 29, 2018
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#59
You're trying way too hard, and honestly, what you're infering is stupid. It's not because a word or a concept was or is used within at a certain time, by a certain group for a certain purpose that it despoil it of its meaning.
Here, i'll help you:

When you deflect critisism by pointing out flaws in your opponent, specifically using the phrase "what about x?" This is an attempt to excuse you from changing you behaviour by painting your opponent as a hypocrite.

And that last paragraph, you're so defensive and come off as insecure. Stop impersonating an intelligent person you're not lmao.

No, it isn't. Again: I have no interest in hypocrisy as a substitute for criticism and not a drop of sympathy for Donald Trump. But when your politics boil down to substance-free moralizing like "Trump as a liar!", it's a perfectly acceptable move to illustrate, by way of counter-example, that you are bitching idly in lieu of having an actual point. Like, for example, what specifically is he lying about and why should anyone care? Why are his lies noteworthy other than that he perpetrated them? There's no motivating force to an argument that's being prosecuted cynically, and the obvious proof that an argument is being prosecuted cynically is when the speaker has no observable record of giving a shit about any other case of lying per se. The point here is very specifically not that the speaker is a hypocrite, but that they are arguing disingenuously, and therefore are not credible. If politics boils down to what people want, there's no sense in listening to anyone who doesn't actually give a shit about anything other than scoring points.

And in the world of disingenuous arguments that absolutely everyone should disregard as a matter of principle, surely--surely--pointing out that some claim or another vaguely matches the structure and style of a made-up form of "Soviet" propaganda that mysteriously appeared in the mid-90s post-Berlin must qualify, here. The fact that you don't even realize you've resurrected an old anti-left troll argument in your opposition to Trump is only like 1% adorable and 99% irritating beyond belief. Honestly, your whole class of clueless 1st-year junior leftish #resistance clowns is despicably awful and I predict you achieve exactly nothing, electorally or otherwise, if these are the kind of traps you're already falling into.
 
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#60
Pres. Trump's skill set and background makes for a great politician. He says whatever he needs to. I think he has enjoyed so much success because people expect that from politicians. People don't tend to care because politicians bend the truth and he's on their team. His policies are ultimately what they want.
 

pimentel1

Gold Member
Jul 22, 2018
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#61
You're trying way too hard, and honestly, what you're infering is stupid. It's not because a word or a concept was or is used within at a certain time, by a certain group for a certain purpose that it despoil it of its meaning.
Here, i'll help you:

When you deflect critisism by pointing out flaws in your opponent, specifically using the phrase "what about x?" This is an attempt to excuse you from changing you behaviour by painting your opponent as a hypocrite.

And that last paragraph, you're so defensive and come off as insecure. Stop impersonating an intelligent person you're not lmao.
Democrat lies lead to slander, hoaxes, and laws that lead to more crime and more minorities incarcerated. Trump lies to stroke his own ego when people are making fun of his hair, hands, weight, diet, speech pattern, and dick. Some lies that Democrats keep taunting, such as “Mexico is gonna pay for the wall”— they miss the point. His people knew realistically Mexico was never gonna pay for it. The people, we pay for everything. They knew it was a just rallying call. It sounded good, and it was wish for some compensation for all the damage Mexican gangs and drugs have done here, nothing more. Sure one can find a chump or two who believed that, but Mexico doesn’t have the money to sustain itself. Not gonna happen.

What other lies are people talking? And remember, while he lies, the economy is booming, less minorities are unemployed, tax relief has helped many, and people can again choose whether they want to pay into healthcare or not, or their own plans, and not live under fear of a tax penalty. North Korea is no longer running rampant and willing to hold meetings instead of threatening us with nukes, and China is being reigned in from spying on us and ripping us off on trade.
 
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Feb 24, 2019
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#62
I can't believe I'm about to post Bill Maher
The first 20 seconds;

'And finally new rules. Someone has to tell me what's magic about a capital 'R'. The kind that goes after your name if you're a Republican. Because if you have one of those, you can get away with pretty much anything when it comes to selling out, cursing out, or compromising your own country.'
At which point the audience breaks out into applause. It's like satire. Pure projection.
 
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Jan 31, 2018
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#63
The problem with attributing "lies" to trump is that certain people will spin anything he says to be a lie.

He could say the sky is blue and leftists will ragepost day and night about "ACKCHUALLY IT'S A SHADE OF TEAL" and call Trump's statement a lie.

It's like boy who cried wolf. Whenever someone says "Trump lied" my brain auto-translates it to "Trump said something I didn't like".
 
Apr 15, 2018
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#64
feel like every year from 2016 now until 2024 will be these coastal idiots telling us they know the minds of people who they so openly despise. amazingly they are entirely oblivious to the very harm they are doing by perpetuating in this constant intellectual ego stroking.

a big problem is this writer directly using a religion as a target, then cherry picking from a strawman of it to suit whatever agenda he has already determined before starting the piece. he complains that the ten commandments say do not lie, but Trump lies, so how can they vote for him? lying is a sin. no duh, California journalist dude.

evangelicals tolerate Trump's sins because ultimately nobody is free from sin. sin is part of worldly existence, everyone is born into sin, and this is why people have to be "saved". these are all fundamental teachings of especially evangelical Christianity. Jesus died for everyone's sins. everyone has sins. let's say it again slowly for the journalists: "everyone sins". evangelicals wouldn't imagine ANY person to be free of sin, unless they were a saint, or proclaimed to be the second coming of Christ. then again this writer isn't arguing in good faith. lol faith

ironically the point is that evangelicals tolerate him because they are not ideologues who must believe 100% of everything the politician says and follow every word he utters and action he performs. they grok the realities of a compromised political system, where all thought and nuance and philosophy is distilled into a binary choice of 0 or 1, and they make a practical choice. lots of people do this. it used to be that voting was a personal thing, you didn't discuss your vote. now everyone is a fucking armchair mindreader.

tbh the loudest people with an apocalypse fixation seem to be the Climate Cultists.
It's obvious a lot of people who talk about evangelicals and the like know nothing about them except the stereotypes they see on T.V.
 
Jun 20, 2018
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#66
It's obvious a lot of people who talk about evangelicals and the like know nothing about them except the stereotypes they see on T.V.
Always the funniest shit when you have leftists who routinely shit on Christianity suddenly pretend to care/ become "experts" on it when it suits their needs and can be used against actual Christians.
Bunch of clowns really think everyone else is blind and stupid.
 
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appaws

Gold Member
Jan 31, 2008
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#67
I said this before, and it became very controversial, I can't remember if it was here or during my short stay at the other place. I vote 100% in ideology. I don't care if they are a murderer, sicko pervert, or whatever. I remember saying I would vote for Charles Manson if he shared my ideology. This is based on the assumption that 99.999% of them are corrupt or fucked up in some way. Given that assumption, you may as well vote for the one who has your ideological preferences mirrored best.

So even if all the stuff the shitlib media heaped on Trump were true, I would not give a shit. He has been successful in some areas, particularly in bringing some sanity back to the federal judiciary. I don't care if a video emerges of him and R. Kelly raping a Bichon Friese and peeing on it while calling it the "N-word." I'll still vote for him.
 
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#68
The cataloging of his lies is dishonest. It is just a huge number that people can cite and say see he is a liar. Calling something like him stating 31% vs 33% a lie is incredibly dishonest itself. There are enough actual lies that they could point out but like usual they can't help themselves with Trump. I sincerely doubt that past presidents have been fact checked in the same slanted way. Half of the shit AOC says is just nonsense. Where is her tally?
 
Mar 4, 2014
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#69
I said this before, and it became very controversial, I can't remember if it was here or during my short stay at the other place. I vote 100% in ideology. I don't care if they are a murderer, sicko pervert, or whatever. I remember saying I would vote for Charles Manson if he shared my ideology. This is based on the assumption that 99.999% of them are corrupt or fucked up in some way. Given that assumption, you may as well vote for the one who has your ideological preferences mirrored best.

So even if all the stuff the shitlib media heaped on Trump were true, I would not give a shit. He has been successful in some areas, particularly in bringing some sanity back to the federal judiciary. I don't care if a video emerges of him and R. Kelly raping a Bichon Friese and peeing on it while calling it the "N-word." I'll still vote for him.
If this is true and you aren't trolling, then you are part of the problem and you should be ashamed of yourself.
 
Likes: Horns

appaws

Gold Member
Jan 31, 2008
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#71
If this is true and you aren't trolling, then you are part of the problem and you should be ashamed of yourself.
What problem? Democracy is flawed, and we are all forced to vote for the lesser of two evils. Especially in America, where the "first past the post" system has us locked into two broad ideological coalition parties.

If, as is my assumption, the system is flawed in such a way that it is inherently corrupting, and even those who enter it with high ideals will fall prey to that corruption, then why do I need to look for a moral paragon to vote for? Why not just vote for the candidate who will give me more of what I want policy wise.

And actually, I think most people who make your assertion are lying anyway. You actually vote ideologically the same way I do, you just rationalize away the moral transgressions of the people on your side, while pearl clutching at those on the other side. I just choose to look at it with eyes wide open. Humans are fallen, most people are scumbags, and that is more true in politicians than it is in the general population.

I will vote for Michael Vick/R. Kelly 2024, with Madoff for Fed Chairman and Smollet as head of the FBI, as long as they promise the agenda I want.
 
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May 20, 2007
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#72
What problem? Democracy is flawed, and we are all forced to vote for the lesser of two evils. Especially in America, where the "first past the post" system has us locked into two broad ideological coalition parties.

If, as is my assumption, the system is flawed in such a way that it is inherently corrupting, and even those who enter it with high ideals will fall prey to that corruption, then why do I need to look for a moral paragon to vote for? Why not just vote for the candidate who will give me more of what I want policy wise.

And actually, I think most people who make your assertion are lying anyway. You actually vote ideologically the same way I do, you just rationalize away the moral transgressions of the people on your side, while pearl clutching at those on the other side. I just choose to look at it with eyes wide open. Humans are fallen, most people are scumbags, and that is more true in politicians than it is in the general population.

I will vote for Michael Vick/R. Kelly 2024, with Madoff for Fed Chairman and Smollet as head of the FBI, as long as they promise the agenda I want.
YOU KNOW THAT HONESTY HAS NO PART IN POLITICS. WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?
 
Likes: spandexmonkey
Mar 4, 2014
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#73
Please elaborate on what "the problem" is. I'm genuinely curious and legitimately want your full opinion here.
I personally find it sad that voters care less and less about the character of the people they vote for. For me, character matters.. It's one of the reasons I did not vote for Trump or Clinton, and why I often split my ticket. I find it gross that people are willing to vote for somebody no matter their negatives just because of their ideology.
 
Likes: Neverwas

Voost Kain

Daily Mail headline writer
Jun 6, 2015
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#74
What problem? Democracy is flawed, and we are all forced to vote for the lesser of two evils. Especially in America, where the "first past the post" system has us locked into two broad ideological coalition parties.

If, as is my assumption, the system is flawed in such a way that it is inherently corrupting, and even those who enter it with high ideals will fall prey to that corruption, then why do I need to look for a moral paragon to vote for? Why not just vote for the candidate who will give me more of what I want policy wise.

And actually, I think most people who make your assertion are lying anyway. You actually vote ideologically the same way I do, you just rationalize away the moral transgressions of the people on your side, while pearl clutching at those on the other side. I just choose to look at it with eyes wide open. Humans are fallen, most people are scumbags, and that is more true in politicians than it is in the general population.

I will vote for Michael Vick/R. Kelly 2024, with Madoff for Fed Chairman and Smollet as head of the FBI, as long as they promise the agenda I want.
We aren't a democracy.
 
Sep 4, 2018
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#76
why is anyone ok with lies? bc

1) there are only two choices in the USA and

2) every single person on the planet has lied at one point.

it is not a democracy. you can't even run for president unless you have millions of dollars.
 
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May 22, 2018
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#78
People tend to love the lies that they wanna hear and Trump loves to tell the exact lies his base wants to hear regardless of whether or not its true and regardless of how much damage it does. This goes for both sides though. The problem is that the people who follow Trump do so blindly whereas other groups are more capable of introspection and second guessing of what they are told, but Trumps base tends to take what they are told by Fox News and Trumps administration as fact and never look any deeper which leads to the general ignorance of his base. The wall and the lies that have surrounded it since his campaign is proof of that sad fact.

Also inb4 I get any "hurr durr the left is one to talk hurr durr" from anyone. I literally just said above that both sides suffer from this problem.
 
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Likes: Horns
Apr 18, 2018
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#79
People tend to love the lies that they wanna hear and Trump loves to tell the exact lies his base wants to hear regardless of whether or not its true and regardless of how much damage it does. This goes for both sides though. The problem is that the people who follow Trump do so blindly whereas other groups are more capable of introspection and second guessing of what they are told, but Trumps base tends to take what they are told by Fox News and Trumps administration as fact and never look any deeper which leads to the general ignorance of his base. The wall and the lies that have surrounded it since his campaign is proof of that sad fact.

Also inb4 I get any "hurr durr the left is one to talk hurr durr" from anyone. I literally just said above that both sides suffer from this problem.
I agree that both sides do it, but perhaps the "hurr durr" that still needs to be pointed out is your insistence that "people who follow Trump do so blindly whereas other groups are more capable of introspection and second guessing of what they are told".

This is demonstrably untrue when you reflect upon the past two years. Smollett. Covington. Cohen "leaks" from Buzzfeed. Those are recent examples, but what about Milania Trump having a "body double", or being a trapped victim, or those kinds of gossipy rumors that've been slurped up over the past 2 years? What about Roy Moore getting accused of molestation by the same group that fabricated the 100-page "security document", New Knowledge? How many whooping victory calls of "we got him!" and "the walls are closing in" have we heard concerning the Trump + Russian collusion accusations? What about people believing that it was illegal to look at the leaked Clinton emails? Was that coming from a Fox News anchor?
 
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Nov 11, 2018
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#80
Because they're racists and white supremacy takes precedence over anything else, including truth. As long as he continues governing like a white supremacist, they will support him.
 
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Likes: Horns
Mar 12, 2014
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#81
People tend to love the lies that they wanna hear and Trump loves to tell the exact lies his base wants to hear regardless of whether or not its true and regardless of how much damage it does. This goes for both sides though. The problem is that the people who follow Trump do so blindly whereas other groups are more capable of introspection and second guessing of what they are told, but Trumps base tends to take what they are told by Fox News and Trumps administration as fact and never look any deeper which leads to the general ignorance of his base. The wall and the lies that have surrounded it since his campaign is proof of that sad fact.

Also inb4 I get any "hurr durr the left is one to talk hurr durr" from anyone. I literally just said above that both sides suffer from this problem.
Its not a blind following, It is a knowing refusal to follow the others. People are sick of the RHINO's and Dems. Its that simple. Couple easy to understand topics:

1) Health Care - We tried the dems way. Were promised cheaper prices and better access. But everyone I know ended up paying more for less benefits unless you dropped out of HS essentially, or did not have a job. We did get rid of pre-existing conditions, which most people want to remain the law of the land. But after paying more for less in benefits, NO THANK YOU to anyone from the same camp promising this time we really will get more for less.

2) Illegal Immigration - try getting extra school services for a US citizen child in need. Its a constant battle because the funds are being spent on people who are not supposed to be here (or whose parents are not). Not to mention that people who work for less reduce the wages employers have to pay, and that housing costs increase with demands. We've heard of comprehensive immigration reform for 30 years - all it means is kicking the can down the road if a RHINO says it, or letting more people in if a Dem says it.

3) Taxes - I'll happily take peanuts over paying more or getting no break at all. When a Dem comes to the table with a concrete plan to decrease taxes on middle class, I will listen. But so far all I see is calls for higher taxes.
 
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#83
I personally find it sad that voters care less and less about the character of the people they vote for. For me, character matters.. It's one of the reasons I did not vote for Trump or Clinton, and why I often split my ticket. I find it gross that people are willing to vote for somebody no matter their negatives just because of their ideology.
When votes are chosen by morality instead of what is best for the country the death of the nation is inevitable.
 
Jun 9, 2004
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#84
I'm not sure Trump believes he's lying. I think he's got some weird paralogia where everything he says he automatically assumes is the truth.
 
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Yeah trumps "lies" i wonder how this thread will age after the mueller report.
FISAcrap actually happened. The evidence that has been made public this week is already overwhelming.
Muh Russia narrative is dead and with that nothing trump has ever said compares to the lies that democrats and the media sold for 2,5 years.
 
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i_am_ben

running_here_and_there
Feb 5, 2008
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#86
Its not a blind following, It is a knowing refusal to follow the others. People are sick of the RHINO's and Dems. Its that simple. Couple easy to understand topics:

1) Health Care - We tried the dems way. Were promised cheaper prices and better access. But everyone I know ended up paying more for less benefits unless you dropped out of HS essentially, or did not have a job. We did get rid of pre-existing conditions, which most people want to remain the law of the land. But after paying more for less in benefits, NO THANK YOU to anyone from the same camp promising this time we really will get more for less.

2) Illegal Immigration - try getting extra school services for a US citizen child in need. Its a constant battle because the funds are being spent on people who are not supposed to be here (or whose parents are not). Not to mention that people who work for less reduce the wages employers have to pay, and that housing costs increase with demands. We've heard of comprehensive immigration reform for 30 years - all it means is kicking the can down the road if a RHINO says it, or letting more people in if a Dem says it.

3) Taxes - I'll happily take peanuts over paying more or getting no break at all. When a Dem comes to the table with a concrete plan to decrease taxes on middle class, I will listen. But so far all I see is calls for higher taxes.
1) Donald Trump has lied routinely on healthcare and now plans to cut billions in funding when he ran on a platform saying he wouldn't.

2) Donald Trump has lied routinely on immigration and ran on a platform stating Mexico would pay for the wall when it's apparent that Mexico will not.

3) The Donald Trump tax cuts are not generating the return to the economy that Donald Trump and the Republican party said they would.

All lies. All overlooked.
 

i_am_ben

running_here_and_there
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#87
I said this before, and it became very controversial, I can't remember if it was here or during my short stay at the other place. I vote 100% in ideology. I don't care if they are a murderer, sicko pervert, or whatever. I remember saying I would vote for Charles Manson if he shared my ideology. This is based on the assumption that 99.999% of them are corrupt or fucked up in some way. Given that assumption, you may as well vote for the one who has your ideological preferences mirrored best.

So even if all the stuff the shitlib media heaped on Trump were true, I would not give a shit. He has been successful in some areas, particularly in bringing some sanity back to the federal judiciary. I don't care if a video emerges of him and R. Kelly raping a Bichon Friese and peeing on it while calling it the "N-word." I'll still vote for him.
You know a self-described fascist just shot 49 people. Perhaps you should re-examine your fascist ideology.
 
Jun 9, 2004
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#88
1) Donald Trump has lied routinely on healthcare and now plans to cut billions in funding when he ran on a platform saying he wouldn't.

2) Donald Trump has lied routinely on immigration and ran on a platform stating Mexico would pay for the wall when it's apparent that Mexico will not.

3) The Donald Trump tax cuts are not generating the return to the economy that Donald Trump and the Republican party said they would.

All lies. All overlooked.
I think you're mixing up campaign promises and political reality.

As with real life, you can make all the promises you want. Holding to them is often impossible. Now imagine you're promising stuff in front of a mass audience without the benefit of cost analysis, necessary political support, and absolute foresight.
 
Apr 25, 2009
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#90
I personally find it sad that voters care less and less about the character of the people they vote for. For me, character matters.. It's one of the reasons I did not vote for Trump or Clinton, and why I often split my ticket. I find it gross that people are willing to vote for somebody no matter their negatives just because of their ideology.
The problem is you’re assuming you know the character of the person based on how they prevent themself in the media. That leaves you open to being manipulated by sociopaths. If you assume that all of the options are sociopaths and that some are just more devious than others, how do you determine your vote?
 

i_am_ben

running_here_and_there
Feb 5, 2008
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#91
I think you're mixing up campaign promises and political reality.

As with real life, you can make all the promises you want. Holding to them is often impossible. Now imagine you're promising stuff in front of a mass audience without the benefit of cost analysis, necessary political support, and absolute foresight.
what is the difference between a promise and a lie when you know you won't deliver it?
 
Jun 9, 2004
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#93
what is the difference between a promise and a lie when you know you won't deliver it?
There's a great gap between intent and reality. Just imagine your favorite game developer promised trees that grow in real time but, for whatever reason, was unable to pull it off for the finished product. The intent was there all along, but reality ensured failure.
 

i_am_ben

running_here_and_there
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#94
There's a great gap between intent and reality. Just imagine your favorite game developer promised trees that grow in real time but, for whatever reason, was unable to pull it off for the finished product. The intent was there all along, but reality ensured failure.
What was Donald's Trump intent with his Healthcare bills? Why did he promise to protect Medicaid but then try and make cuts to it? Why couldn't he keep his campaign promise when he controlled the White House, Senate and the House of Representatives?

Why did Donald Trump continue to promise that Mexico would pay for the wall when he was told repeatedly that they would not?
 
Jun 9, 2004
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#95
What was Donald's Trump intent with his Healthcare bills? Why did he promise to protect Medicaid but then try and make cuts to it? Why couldn't he keep his campaign promise when he controlled the White House, Senate and the House of Representatives?

Why did Donald Trump continue to promise that Mexico would pay for the wall when he was told repeatedly that they would not?
I can't speak to the man's intent.

And the border issue is something he holds dear. He continues to be misguided in his belief someone else will pay -- but there's your intent bumping up against reality.
 
Jan 7, 2018
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#97
With that said, these fact checkers are often a joke. They do rightfully point out outright lies but when Trump says something true, it is often reported as “partially true”, “misleading”, or “lacks context”. So I don’t blame people for ignoring Politifact and other fact checkers.

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You're forgot getting that they also fact check what other politicians have said. And their quotes could be labeled as any of those three.
 
Jul 20, 2018
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#98
I will concede that Trump's attempts to bend the truth tend to be more crass and less grey then some of his predecessors, but I would definitely not concede that he is less honest.

All politicians are salesman. Their goal is to win over public opinion in order to put pressure on their opponents and either A) keep their job or B) enact legislation.

Career politicians are mostly trying to do 'A' with a little bit of 'B'.

This salesmanship requires that they say falsehoods, often blatant ones aimed at the subset of people they are trying to appeal to for the above A/B options. This really isn't debatable, it's obvious and to an absurd degree. Watch as candidate Obama and President Obama debate national security:


Politifact would no doubt find few lies in any of Obamas speeches, but to say that makes Obama 'honest' is absurd.

Trump is, in my opinion, a pretty clumsy salesman. He is brash and overly confident in his sales pitch, and he will downright say anything to deliver on his promises, and that includes strait up lies, decepit, manipulation etc. But it should be obvious to anyone who is being intellectually honest, that someone who actually attempts to do what they say they will do, is more valuable to the people that agree with them then someone who simply gives them platitudes.

At the end of the day what would be the greater lie? Telling people you will deliver them a wall, and then doing everything in your power to make that happen (including lying). Or telling people you will deliver them a wall, and then not building it because it's politically difficult and come at the expense of re-election?

Trump may succeed or fail at building a wall. He may claim to have built it when he hasn't. He may lie cheat and steal to get it done. But at the end of the day he won't have lied about doing everything in his power to make it happen. And his supporters will LOVE him for that.
 
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1) Donald Trump has lied routinely on healthcare and now plans to cut billions in funding when he ran on a platform saying he wouldn't.

2) Donald Trump has lied routinely on immigration and ran on a platform stating Mexico would pay for the wall when it's apparent that Mexico will not.

3) The Donald Trump tax cuts are not generating the return to the economy that Donald Trump and the Republican party said they would.

All lies. All overlooked.
1) nothing has been more devastating for healthcare than the lie "If you like your doctor, you can keep him"

2) Did you hold every candidate to the standard of 100% action on campaign promises? Because I have some bad news...

3)
"To hear critics put it, the reforms to the individual income taxes — which lowered rates and expanded the standard deduction — and the much-needed cuts to the corporate income tax rate, were a bust. They didn't help families. Didn't boost corporate investment. They failed to turbocharge the economy. All they did was benefit the rich and explode the deficit.

You don't have to look very hard to see that the tax cuts did, indeed, boost GDP growth and incomes.
Early last year, for example, the Congressional Budget Office's pre-tax-cut forecast had 2018 growth at just 2% and the unemployment rate at 4.4%. GDP growth is well ahead of that pace, and the unemployment rate is just 3.7%.
Contrary to Democrats' claims, workers are clearly sharing in the tax-cut windfall. Not just through tax-cut bonuses and lower withholdings, but through increased opportunities and wage growth.

As we noted in this space yesterday, blue collar workers are now in short supply, "reversing a decades-long trend in the U.S." Average hourly wages are rising at 3.1%, the fastest rate since 1999. Unemployment rates are at lows not seen since 1969, and for minority groups, they're lower than any time on record. Median household income is at all-time highs.
None of this is a continuation of the Obama economy, which had flatlined the year before Trump took office. Growth was so sluggish that conventional wisdom was the U.S. economy was destined for slow growth in perpetuity."

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/trump-tax-cuts-economy-deficits/

You are letting either your blind hate or your simple mind cloud your logic, you can do better.