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Why Won't Companies Make it Clear Their Games are Roguelikes in Marketing?

ManaByte

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Returnal

Deathloop

One $70 game, another $60. Both Roguelikes.

We know Sony understood that they messed up by not making it clear that Returnal was a Roguelike in the marketing via a survey they sent out, but what about Bethesda?

Deathloop releases tomorrow and we're just now learning from reviews that the game is a Roguelike. Hell one review says it takes more than an hour of gameplay to get any powers, which you can then lose by resetting the game.

Why are companies afraid to make this clear before release? Do they want to wow the casuals with flashy trailers and trick them into paying $70/$60 for a Roguelike?

Were studios blinded by the success of indie Roguelikes in the previous gen to the point of hubris that they thought they could get away with AAA pricing for one?
 

MiguelItUp

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No clue, but honestly discovering it was truly a roguelike is what made me cancel and refund. I mean, sure, the name itself implies a roguelike, and honestly a lot of the mechanics they talked about felt that way as well. However, with them not simply labeling it as such, it made me think that there may be more to it.

But there really isn't.

I'm not super disappointed or anything, but much like Returnal, to me the idea of a full priced roguelike is a bit ridiculous as the game itself is, well, grindy. That's just the nature of the beast, and that alone may not be everyone's cup of tea. I've played some of the best roguelikes over the years and they've all been half the price or more than a AAA title. I still plan on checking out Returnal, and I still plan on checking out Deathloop. Just when they're a lot cheaper.

I guess they're just hesitant in saying roguelike because that is a turn off for a lot of players. So, maybe they feel confident enough in their title that they feel if they DON'T use that term, they could potentially hook new players that would usually say they dislike it. I could see that, honestly. Though, I'd personally really appreciate them just coming out and saying it. Even if they said it was a roguelike with a twist, or their go at a roguelike, etc.
 

ManaByte

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Deathloop have plenty of previews, both IGN and Eurogamer don't call it a Roguelike and I am not sure about the others.

Deathloop is not at all what I expected • Eurogamer.net

Also should Roguelikes be limited to a specific price range? Should hit-man? I am very confused at the theory here.

It is a Roguelike.

Some people don't want to pay AAA price for a game with that style of progression.
 

NahaNago

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I honestly thought it was just a souls like game with only guns.

Is souls a rogue-like?
 
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reksveks

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It is a Roguelike.

Some people don't want to pay AAA price for a game with that style of progression.
There is a debate on what features a game needs to have to be a roguelike, clearly IGN and Eurogamer have a different definition.

I get that but I don't get the logic, equally vaild is the statement that some people don't want to pay AAA for a FPS but i don't get the link between Genre and 'Value' of a game at a generalised level (at the personal level, i get it) ?

I also slightly confused cause there have been a number of gameplay trailers and marketing previews that they have released.
 
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GymWolf

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Deathloop is not a roguelite, not a classic one at least.

Onestly at this point sound like trolling.

If you are interested in the game you study a bit and understand what the game is all about and it's not a roguelite, it's a puzzle game dressed as a fps/stealth game.

I'm pretty sure that arkane specifically said in one interview/trailer that the game is not a fucking roguelite.
 
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elliot5

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Well first it's not really a roguelike, but the game is called Deathloop... the tagline is "If at first you don't succeed... die, die, again."...

They cover the aspect of dying and repeating in basically every trailer and even have explanations as to the set up mechanically.



There have been plenty of previews and impressions from months ago talking about the structure, too.


Not sure where the impression this came out of nowhere is coming from..
 

ManaByte

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Onestly at this point sound like trolling.

I was going to buy the game. Had it pre-ordered on Amazon, until I read this thread:
 
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Punished Miku

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Because roguelikes are a terrible rip-off of a genre at $70. They literally only existed in the indie space, where they don't have the funding or manpower to make full length action games.

One of the Deathloop reviews said he saw all the areas in 2 hours. Deathloop is treading the line between roguelike and Majora's Mask timeloop adventure. You bind new items to your "consciousness" so they're present when you restart. But the game isn't emphasizing combat and repeated deaths to the same extent as most roguelikes. It's more of a "temporal metroidvainia," which is a very rare genre that really only a few games inhabit - like Majora's Mask. You move through gated areas like a Metroidvainia, but instead of exploring new zones, you're exploring new elements of a time loop. It's a pretty cerebral concept.

But roguelikes still suck.
 

Vae_Victis

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15 different bloody trailer that explained in detail that you have to kill a list of targets without dying yourself, and if you die the timeline resets and you have to try again from scratch...

I mean, what would make anyone assume it's not a roguelike, or at least has strong roguelike elements? Even if you don't use the word, the description itself is the same of a roguelike. From everything the developers said, you don't even need to know what a roguelike is to understand how the game works.
 
Jun 16, 2019
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Deathloop is not a roguelite, not a classic one at least.

Onestly at this point sound like trolling.

If you are interested in the game you study a bit and understand what the game is all about and it's not a roguelite, iit's a puzzle game dressed as a fps/stealth game.

I'm pretty sure that arkane specifically said in one interview/trailer that the game is not fucking roguelite.

Theres a difference between roguelike and lites. Deathloop is 100% in the lite category as you can keep the stuff and the story progresses as you die and as you learn stuff. A roguelike pretty much resets you to 0 and thats it. Deathloop has very strong rogue mechanics but its not as punishable as the exact term of it and thats why some of us prefer to use the term lite. You'll see a lot of games in these categories. Hades for example is another I'd call roguelite and not roguelike.
 

makaveli60

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Bcause they know it’s shitty game design. I would buy Deathloop if it wasn’t for this ”small” thing. It looks awesome but being a roguelike ruins it for me.
 

GymWolf

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I was going to buy the game. Had it pre-ordered on Amazon, until I read this thread:
I know exactly what the game is all about, because i was interested in it and i watched most explanation videos and trailers.

I guess you can call it a roguelite because you die and part of your progress are lost, but it's not really a roguelite, there are big differences with a classic roguelite, this is more hitman mixed with dishonored imo.

In hitman you learn how to kill all the objectives in a single run and if you restart the mission, all the stuff you collected is gone.

Deathloop is mostly about gaining info and doing actions to have all the 8 targets in a specific place/hour to maximize every part of the day.

There is no roguelite in existence where you need to do that in order to solve tye big puzzle, you don't fight your way out of the game, you can't just fight mini enemies, get to the boss and repeat 8 times, it's far more complicated than that.

P.s. i was not talking specifically to you, but i also readed the reeee topic and some people were convinced that this was a cod game, a battle royale or some other shit, lmao.
 
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GymWolf

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Theres a difference between roguelike and lites. Deathloop is 100% in the lite category as you can keep the stuff and the story progresses as you die and as you learn stuff. A roguelike pretty much resets you to 0 and thats it. Deathloop has very strong rogue mechanics but its not as punishable as the exact term of it and thats why some of us prefer to use the term lite. You'll see a lot of games in these categories. Hades for example is another I'd call roguelite and not roguelike.
I know the difference between lite and light, deathloop still ask to do unique things.

You don't need to actively do something to have hades as a final boss, don't you?!

In deathloop it's you that create the perfect chain of events to solve the puzzle.

Also roguelite or light have random elements, it's a staple of the genre, deathloop has none of that.
 
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V4skunk

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Returnal

Deathloop

One $70 game, another $60. Both Roguelikes.

We know Sony understood that they messed up by not making it clear that Returnal was a Roguelike in the marketing via a survey they sent out, but what about Bethesda?

Deathloop releases tomorrow and we're just now learning from reviews that the game is a Roguelike. Hell one review says it takes more than an hour of gameplay to get any powers, which you can then lose by resetting the game.

Why are companies afraid to make this clear before release? Do they want to wow the casuals with flashy trailers and trick them into paying $70/$60 for a Roguelike?

Were studios blinded by the success of indie Roguelikes in the previous gen to the point of hubris that they thought they could get away with AAA pricing for one?
Seethe cope and dilate.
 

winjer

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I dislike roguelites and roguelikes. The moment I see that in a game's description, I move on.
The only exceptions were Dungeons of the Endless and Hades. But just because these games are so good, that I manage to put up with the roguelike elements.

I still remember finishing Prey, and going to Steam to buy MoonCrash, but at the last moment, I noticed in the user tags that this is a roguelike.
Such a disappointment. But at least I didn't waste money on it.
 
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I know the difference between lite and light, deathloop still ask to do unique things.

You don't need to actively do something to have hades as a final boss, don't you?!

In deathloop it's you that create the perfect chain of events to solve the puzzle.

Also roguelite or light have random elements, it's a staple of the genre, deathloop has none of that.

Just because its more complex does not make it less rogue. If you die and you reset and the whole game is based around that it's rogue. Deathloop levels also change, based on time of day and as you re-awake. It's its way of doing "random" things. Random is not an obligatory staple of the rogue genre, it only makes it better but a game can certainly be rogue and have no randomization. We call those boring games :). I jest ofc but u get the point.
 
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AV

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Is it actually a roguelike though, or are people just conflating games based around timeloops with roguelikes/lites?

Was Outer Wilds a roguelite? Was Twelve Minutes?

The director himself said it isn't back in May and frankly it sounds nothing like one. It's not a dungeon crawler with permadeath and "runs" that are never the same as far as I can tell.
 
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Probably because when you hear roguelike, you think of simplistic indie games for $12. And for many gamers, they probably avoid rogue-ish games no matter what it is in terms of productions value or price.

So got to change the narrative how to market it.
 

cormack12

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I honeslty just don't think it's used much amongst the cashuls. Even Hades is listed as action/adventure/role playing on the Sony/MS stores. Think about it, if the audience doesn't know that term, how would you list the game or under what genre?
 
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engstra

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I think they made it very clear that Returnal was a roguelike. If the common consumer was aware of that or knew what that entailed is another question. I guess Deathloop has rogue elements but I always saw it more as a puzzle action game. You die but each time you learn the pattern of your targets better to be able to line up the perfect run. The Sexy Brutale has a similar loop but I wouldn't call it a rogue because of that.
Also just because a game is a rogue doesn't mean it's less of an experience and therefore should cost less. It's cool that the genre is entering the AAA space and seeing how it's being interpreted.
 

GymWolf

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Just because its more complex does not make it less rogue. If you die and you reset and the whole game is based around that it's rogue. Deathloop levels also change, based on time of day and as you re-awake. It's its way of doing "random" things. Random is not an obligatory staple of the rogue genre, it only makes it better but a game can certainly be rogue and have no randomization. We call those boring games :). I jest ofc but u get the point.
The game changing depends on the hour is not random, X location at noon is gonna be still the same every time, from enemy location to boss location to mechanic stuff to activate, if it wasn't it would be impossible to solve the puzzle.

A game with a big puzzle in it, where gaining infos is far more important than fighting and all the other minor differences is different enough to not be considered a roguelite tbh, i don't know any roguelite or light where combat is not the main thing and where you can basically play like dishonored with a big exploration core.

I'm pretty sure that even arkane said that deathloop is not a roguelite.
And since hades is super famous now, i doubt it was because they fear losing clients...
 
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R6Rider

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From the game Director:

“There is four areas and there is four time periods,” Deathloop director Dinga Bakaba explained. He added: “So the first thing is, at the beginning of each loop, you can go to one of the four areas. So you don’t have to start in the same area.

“And even more importantly, you don’t have to go through the morning. Actually, you can just skip to noon or the afternoon or night – we don’t force you to go through the beginning of the game or anything like that. It is not a game about starting the game over from the start and trying to do it entirely. So that’s one of the reasons why I’ve been saying consistently that it’s not a roguelike.”
 
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Fbh

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I don't know man, I'm not too interested in the game but even just watching the trailers they have shown at various events I thought they were pretty clear about the core concept of this repeating cycle that resets when you die

I mean they had this trailer:
For a game Called DeathLOOP, with a song called Deja Vu, in which the main character dies multiple times and wakes up on the same beach, with the tag line "If at first you don't succeed, die, die again"
 
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The game changing depends on the hour is not random, X location at noon is gonna be still the same every time, from enemy location to boss location to mechanic stuff to activate, if it wasn't it would be impossible to solve the puzzle.

A game with a big puzzle in it, where gaining infos is far more important than fighting and all the other minor differences is different enough to not be considered a roguelite tbh, i don't know any roguelite or light where combat is not the main thing and where you can basically play like dishonored with a big exploration core.

I'm pretty sure that even arkane said that deathloop is not a roguelite.
And since hades is super famous now, i doubt it was because they fear losing clients...

Where did Arkane specify it was not roguelite/like or that it lacked rogue mechanics? I specifically put random in quotation marks. Thought that was clear. Afaik targets can certainly change location around the map besides some other things changing as well. Stop emphasizing on the "puzzle" thing. Having a puzzle is not a genre. We are talking about the game's genre or subgenre. It's not a puzzle game. Every mistery game is a puzzle. Deathloop is rogue or has rogue mechanics. Denying it doesnt change that fact. Videos and everyone claming it is does and as such you're wrong.
 
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AV

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Where did Arkane specify it was not roguelite/like or that it lacked rogue mechanics? I specifically put random in quotation marks. Thought that was clear. Afaik targets can certainly change location around the map besides some other things changing as well. Stop emphasizing on the "puzzle" thing. Having a puzzle is not a genre. We are talking about the game's genre or subgenre. It's not a puzzle game. Every mistery game is a puzzle. Deathloop is rogue or has rogue mechanics. Denying it doesnt change that fact. Videos and everyone claming it is does and as such you're wrong.

The director of the game said it isn't months ago.


Having a timeloop mechanic does not make a game a roguelite. It's not a procedurally generated dungeon crawler that changes every time you play it, as far as I can tell. It shares very little DNA with Rogue. Like I asked above, is Twelve Minutes really a roguelite because the core mechanic is restarting with new knowledge?
 

LordCBH

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Deathloop releases tomorrow and we're just now learning from reviews that the game is a Roguelike.

Damn….I was interested after reading the review scores but roguelikes are a solid no from me…..
 
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Punished Miku

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The director of the game said it isn't months ago.


Having a timeloop mechanic does not make a game a roguelite. It's not a procedurally generated dungeon crawler that changes every time you play it, as far as I can tell. It shares very little DNA with Rogue. Like I asked above, is Twelve Minutes really a roguelite because the core mechanic is restarting with new knowledge?
Sony literally has a roguelikes category on the PSN with this game in it though. It's clearly confusing people.
 

Stuart360

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I wonder why the sudden influx of roguelike games on console is suddenly happening right now. Its always been a PC centric genre.
 

TexMex

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Certain people: More Deathloop? Ughh, I don't care. *ignores*
Same people later on: So wtf is this game? They didn't explain it!

Pretty much. Maybe it's just because I've been looking forward to this, but the responses in this thread are surprising to me. I've known it was a Roguelike for months at this point. Not even sure where I picked that up, but that's what I've been going off of for some time.
 
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GymWolf

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Where did Arkane specify it was not roguelite/like or that it lacked rogue mechanics? I specifically put random in quotation marks. Thought that was clear. Afaik targets can certainly change location around the map besides some other things changing as well. Stop emphasizing on the "puzzle" thing. Having a puzzle is not a genre. We are talking about the game's genre or subgenre. It's not a puzzle game. Every mistery game is a puzzle. Deathloop is rogue or has rogue mechanics. Denying it doesnt change that fact. Videos and everyone claming it is does and as such you're wrong.
No, i'm not gonna stop with the puzzle thing since the main core of the game is solving the fucking puzzle and not the killing like any other roguelite in the market.

You don't explore much in other roguelites let alone having god tier level design or big locations to explore.
You don't search for infos about your targets nor you need to do specific things to kill them in the right order. In other roguelites.

The guy under me answered even better, but if you say that is it a roguelite, i guess the creator of the game is wrong like me, too bad.

Agree to disagree i guess.
 
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Captain Toad

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How many times have Sony shown Deathloop? It's been pretty clear each time that it is a Rouge-like game.
 

AV

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Sony literally has a roguelikes category on the PSN with this game in it though. It's clearly confusing people.

If it's on the console store then I'd say it's an error considering it's not in the roguelike category on the web store, at least in the UK.


That being said, it's still a "pre order" here for some reason so it's not showing up anywhere other than search. I'd say that's more of an issue with the eternally shitty PS store than the marketing of the game itself, which as far as I can tell never said it was a roguelike (because it isn't)
 
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GymWolf

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Sony literally has a roguelikes category on the PSN with this game in it though. It's clearly confusing people.
Because it is easier to classify the game as a roguelite than writing a very specific description.

You can see how some people still don't know shit about the game after 284572958 trailers, previews and reviews and we are supposed to be the hardcore gamers here...imagine the guy who just puts a genre label on the psn...
 
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The director of the game said it isn't months ago.


Having a timeloop mechanic does not make a game a roguelite. It's not a procedurally generated dungeon crawler that changes every time you play it, as far as I can tell. It shares very little DNA with Rogue. Like I asked above, is Twelve Minutes really a roguelite because the core mechanic is restarting with new knowledge?

No, i'm not gonna stop with the puzzle thing since the main core of the game is solving the fucking puzzle and not the killing like any other roguelite in the market.

You don't explore much in other roguelites let alone having god tier level design or big locations to explore.
You don't search for infos about your targets nor you need to do specific things to kill them in the right order. In other roguelites.

The guy under me answered even better, but if you say that is it a roguelite, i guess the creator of the game is wrong like me, too bad.

Agree to disagree i guess.


Depends entirely on the game sure. Does not have to be a pure roguelike, and Deathloop certainly isnt, however they can adopt roguelike/lite mechanics. Dying and restaring wihtout reaching the point of "upgrade" is certainly in the rogue subcategory and in Deathloop as I saw in a video you can certainly get nowhere and keep dying without advancing the "puzzle" or story. Would that not be considered a game with rogue mechanics? In Twelve Minutes you advance the story no matter what. It's a different matter.
 

AV

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Depends entirely on the game sure. Does not have to be a pure roguelike, and Deathloop certainly isnt, however they can adopt roguelike/lite mechanics. Dying and restaring wihtout reaching the point of "upgrade" is certainly in the rogue subcategory and in Deathloop as I saw in a video you can certainly get nowhere and keep dying without advancing the "puzzle" or story. Would that not be considered a game with rogue mechanics? In Twelve Minutes you advance the story no matter what. It's a different matter.

No, not really. You could never reach the first bonfire in Dark Souls, just keep dying and never being able to spend your Souls, and it's not a roguelike or lite. Sure, I guess you could say it has "elements" of one in the same way that Grand Theft Auto has "elements" of Gran Turismo, i.e. you drive vehicles, but they don't belong in the same category.

Also you can absolutely restart a loop in Twelve Minutes without advancing the story in any way, and even if you do, you can still repeat actions that you did on your first loop without choosing the newer dialogue options. I'm not sure either of us know that there aren't irreversible changes that are made to subsequent Death loops, I don't wanna look too far into it to avoid spoilers.
 
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It is a Roguelike.
You say this but youre wrong.
not really because you keep your gear and abilities (more or less) and there's not randomization like in rogueli(t/k)e games. There's just a time loop and you're reusing your clues to get closer to the end goal. IGN compared it to Dark Souls in the sense that you die or repeat sections to learn more and reclaim your residuum ("souls") from your corpse, but Dark Souls isn't a rogue like at all. It's mostly just a time loop existing.
But the titles and commercials of Returnal and Deathloop, like come on. You know youre going to die alot. Still doesnt make them roguelike. RogueKindalite if anything.
 
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No, not really. You could never reach the first bonfire in Dark Souls, just keep dying and never being able to spend your Souls, and it's not a roguelike or lite. Sure, I guess you could say it has "elements" of one in the same way that Grand Theft Auto has "elements" of Gran Turismo, i.e. you drive vehicles, but they don't belong in the same category.

Also you can absolutely restart a loop in Twelve Minutes without advancing the story in any way, and even if you do, you can still repeat actions that you did on your first loop without choosing the newer dialogue options. I'm not sure either of us know that there aren't irreversible changes that are made to subsequent Death loops, I don't wanna look too far into it to avoid spoilers.

I dont think the pure definition of genres apply in games anymore. YOu can certainly call Far Cry an rpg game these days, can you not? Leveling up, crafting, skills, multiple ways of dealing with enemies, multiple ways of doing missions, etc. With your logic I can say Hades is not a rogue-like either. You can certainly not die and reach the final boss and that is it. You can certainly die in any game and not advance anything but then again it really isnt like Deathloop or Returnal or Hades now is it? Because dying in these games is the point. You have to. In roguelite games you have to die in order to get better upgrades and advance the story. In Souls games you don't have to die. You certainly must not.
 
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