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Wii 2 (Project Cafe): Officially Announced, Playable At E3, Launching 2012 [Updated]

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From The Dust

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lunchwithyuzo said:
Nintendo's also always just had one internal name as far back as we know...

VR32 = Virtual Boy
Project Reality = Nintendo 64
Atlantis = Game Boy Advance
Dolphin = GameCube
Nitro = Nintendo DS
Revolution = Wii
Century = Nintendo 3DS
Cafe = ???

was this ever confirmed?
 

M74

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Wow. I go away for a few hours, I come back and people are losing it over haptics. Who says "fuck the Cafe" just because haptics might be in use? Why is that a bad thing when we already "know" there are physical buttons? I know there's a tendency for some people to just write stuff off as "lol Nintendo gimmicks", but we haven't even seen the damn thing yet.
 

VisanidethDM

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Inventing cool applications of the screen-streaming technology was easy and intuitive; trying to do the same with "touch" as a gaming sense feels really, really forced.
 

Vinci

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M74 said:
Wow. I go away for a few hours, I come back and people are losing it over haptics. Who says "fuck the Cafe" just because haptics might be in use? Why is that a bad thing when we already "know" there are physical buttons? I know there's a tendency for some people to just write stuff off as "lol Nintendo gimmicks", but we haven't even seen the damn thing yet.

If Sony or MS announced haptics in their next controller, people would be, "Whoa! Awesome!"
 

VisanidethDM

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Vinci said:
If Sony or MS announced haptics in their next controller, people would be, "Whoa! Awesome!"

I don't think it's that; there's cool innovations, and there's pointless BS. I have faith in Nintendo being one step ahead and blowing my mind with the unthinkable, and making haptics good for gaming; however, I have more faith in Nintendo being sensible and this rumor being fake.
 

FoneBone

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M74 said:
Wow. I go away for a few hours, I come back and people are losing it over haptics. Who says "fuck the Cafe" just because haptics might be in use?
Nobody, but it contributes to a sense that they're piling on "cool" features without a cohesive vision behind them.

(That judgment is obviously a qualified one based on incomplete rumors. But the point stands.)
 

M74

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VisanidethDM said:
there's cool innovations, and there's pointless BS.
I realize you aren't necessarily saying it's BS, but that's kinda my point. People who are pre-judging this as BS, assuming there's an validity to it at all, before we even see its application are being ridiculous.


FoneBone said:
Nobody, but it contributes to a sense that they're piling on "cool" features without a cohesive vision behind them.

(That judgment is obviously a qualified one based on incomplete rumors. But the point stands.)
Again, we haven't seen it yet and we don't know how it will be used by developers. How can anyone properly judge their vision? The knee jerking by some people is hilarious.
 

ReyVGM

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EvilMario said:
Feel could just be the code name for the controller. 'Dolphin' was the name for the Gamecube, while Flipper was the GPU.

Similar to Ultra 64 / Project Reality.

Ultra 64 WAS the actual name. They ended up not using it because someone else had "Ultra 64" trademarked in the USA (or maybe Europe), so they dropped the "Ultra" part because they wanted to have a unified name.
 
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Honest question here, but when has nintendo ever released a controller with a new feature and not have a game that can showcase it? I can't even think of one, because even the virtual boy had Wario which used the tech as best it could be used I suppose.
 

VisanidethDM

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I'm trying to go through the last few pages, but did anyone even attempt to think of how haptics could be even applied to the most important genres?

I'm trying to wrap my head around it, but touch is a sense, and sensory inputs are generally meant to be used to acquire informations. Now, in videogames we generally use visual and aural cues in order to do that, and I don't really see where touch can come in.

Even considering the easiest genre to implement the system in (first person adventure/investigation), how is this system gonna supplement visual cues? Is feeling something "soft" on the pad any helpful, when we already can see we're touching cloth?
I can imagine a situation like an Ace Attorney game where touching on a cloth surface returns a "soft" sensation, and if something "hard" is hidden underneat, the pat could give an "hard" feedback... but it's grasping at straws. When we see an object, we're capable of imagining how it feels.

And if the information the haptics system is important, it has to be something we can't discern in other ways. Imagine playing Mario, and having the haptics system as the tool that allows you to know if a surface is "icy" (cold/smooth feedback), normal (rough feedback), bouncy (soft feedback) etc... that means removing the visual cues from the game. It doesn't add anything.

People have often incorrectly labeled motion controls as gimmicks, but this thing fits the definition a lot better.
 

Teknoman

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M74 said:
Wow. I go away for a few hours, I come back and people are losing it over haptics. Who says "fuck the Cafe" just because haptics might be in use? Why is that a bad thing when we already "know" there are physical buttons? I know there's a tendency for some people to just write stuff off as "lol Nintendo gimmicks", but we haven't even seen the damn thing yet.

Im not sure why people still go "lol nintendo gimmicks" anyway, since almost everything Nintendo introduces becomes a gaming staple at some point.
 

brochiller

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I'm waiting for the full reveal before I judge the usefullness of any of these rumored features. We cant say that there is or isn't a cohesive plan behind all of this until we see what Nintendo plans to do with it.
 

EvilMario

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VisanidethDM said:
I'm trying to go through the last few pages, but did anyone even attempt to think of how haptics could be even applied to the most important genres?

I'm trying to wrap my head around it, but touch is a sense, and sensory inputs are generally meant to be used to acquire informations. Now, in videogames we generally use visual and aural cues in order to do that, and I don't really see where touch can come in.

Even considering the easiest genre to implement the system in (first person adventure/investigation), how is this system gonna supplement visual cues? Is feeling something "soft" on the pad any helpful, when we already can see we're touching cloth?
I can imagine a situation like an Ace Attorney game where touching on a cloth surface returns a "soft" sensation, and if something "hard" is hidden underneat, the pat could give an "hard" feedback... but it's grasping at straws. When we see an object, we're capable of imagining how it feels.

And if the information the haptics system is important, it has to be something we can't discern in other ways. Imagine playing Mario, and having the haptics system as the tool that allows you to know if a surface is "icy" (cold/smooth feedback), normal (rough feedback), bouncy (soft feedback) etc... that means removing the visual cues from the game. It doesn't add anything.

People have often incorrectly labeled motion controls as gimmicks, but this thing fits the definition a lot better.

It's all about how it's applied. Motion control CAN be a gimmick, but it can also be a great benefit to many titles. The same will hold true for this.
 

VisanidethDM

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M74 said:
Again, we haven't seen it yet and we don't know how it will be used by developers. How can anyone properly judge their vision? The knee jerking by some people is hilarious.

You also need to realize that when motion controls were announced, we got thinking and thousands of possible applications sprung to our minds. When the screen streaming was announced, I could go on all day with possible application.

With this, I'm struggling to figure out anything sensible, and everything I come up with is tied to extremely obscure applications in pretty hardcore genres.

If these haptics are simply a form of feedback (like vibration) and not the core of the new mechanics, ok, it's pretty cool I guess, doesn't make and doesn't break the console.
But if we're meant to create games around them, then I can't possibly imagine an universal application method. How do I fit touch in the gameplay and make it a core function?
 

EvilMario

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VisanidethDM said:
You also need to realize that when motion controls were announced, we got thinking and thousands of possible applications sprung to our minds. When the screen streaming was announced, I could go on all day with possible application.

With this, I'm struggling to figure out anything sensible, and everything I come up with is tied to extremely obscure applications in pretty hardcore genres.

If these haptics are simply a form of feedback (like vibration) and not the core of the new mechanics, ok, it's pretty cool I guess, doesn't make and doesn't break the console.
But if we're meant to create games around them, then I can't possibly imagine an universal application method. How do I fit touch in the gameplay and make it a core function?

Maybe we should wait to actually see the thing. People don't even the basics of what exactly they'll be using.
 
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EvilMario said:
It's all about how it's applied. Motion control CAN be a gimmick, but it can also be a great benefit to many titles. The same will hold true for this.
You can apply this to literally any function of a controller though.
 

VisanidethDM

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EvilMario said:
Maybe we should wait to actually see the thing. People don't even the basics of what exactly they'll be using.

That's for sure. I guess I'm simply advocating that touch is a fairly hard to implement sense for videogames. The kind of information it gives is not as immediately useful as sight and hearing, and for most gaming genres, it's absolutely bloody pointless if meant to be a direct translation (ie, you touch something, you feel what you're touching).

Nintendo could be willing to move some information from sight to touch, of course, but the entire thing feels convoluted and unnatural tbh. But I'm just speculating, let's wait and see.
 

brochiller

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VisanidethDM said:
You also need to realize that when motion controls were announced, we got thinking and thousands of possible applications sprung to our minds. When the screen streaming was announced, I could go on all day with possible application.

With this, I'm struggling to figure out anything sensible, and everything I come up with is tied to extremely obscure applications in pretty hardcore genres.

If these haptics are simply a form of feedback (like vibration) and not the core of the new mechanics, ok, it's pretty cool I guess, doesn't make and doesn't break the console.
But if we're meant to create games around them, then I can't possibly imagine an universal application method. How do I fit touch in the gameplay and make it a core function?

The tech just doesn't seem to fit with Nintendo's vision for their next console. We already know buttons will be the main input method and that we aren't going to be touching the screen very much, so what would the point really be? Rumble is something you get the benefit of all the time since you feel it no matter where you're touching the controller. With this, you have to be touching the screed, which doesn't make for a high benefit compared to the cost. It would make much more sense on a handheld where the screen in the main input method.
 

Hiltz

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I hope Nintendo includes more worthwhile features it offers into the Wii's successor. It's really the only one who focuses on implementing hardware features it desires most and not so much on what third-parties.

The Wii's Menu channel had the unecessary Weather and News Channels that you checked out once or twice and never bothered to go back to. The Wii Remote Speaker was too gimmicky. The Nintendo Channel is cool but could be improved upon. I doubt anyone really cares for those weekly online episodes. The Voting channel was stupid but the Check Mii Out channel was pretty cool. If Nintendo isn't going to focus heavily online, then third-parties are going to have to basically work around the issue.


Can't have stuff like this repeated on the Wii's successor.
 
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abstract alien said:
Honest question here, but when has nintendo ever released a controller with a new feature and not have a game that can showcase it? I can't even think of one, because even the virtual boy had Wario which used the tech as best it could be used I suppose.

If we're talking controllers, I'm afraid Wario Land on VB didn't quite utilize all the controller features. The controller had two triggers, two D-pads, Start, Select, A, and B. Having 100%-ed the game back in the day, I'm fairly sure VB Wario Land didn't even use the right-side D-pad (although some other titles did, and I'm not sure if they used both triggers/all the buttons or not).

Red Alarm might be better described as the VB's showcase game, because it really required the 3D feedback to navigate, but that's a pretty sad thought. Maybe 3D Tetris?
 

VisanidethDM

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brochiller said:
The tech just doesn't seem to fit with Nintendo's vision for their next console. We already know buttons will be the main input method and that we aren't going to be touching the screen very much, so what would the point really be? Rumble is something you get the benefit of all the time since you feel it no matter where you're touching the controller. With this, you have to be touching the screed, which doesn't make for a high benefit compared to the cost. It would make much more sense on a handheld where the screen in the main input method.

One could assume that the "haptic surface" isn't on the screen but on the pad grips. Sort of dismantles any possible use I could think of so far, tho.

The real question to answer here is: what kind of useful information can touch provide us in most videogame genres?
 

brochiller

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VisanidethDM said:
One could assume that the "haptic surface" isn't on the screen but on the pad grips. Sort of dismantles any possible use I could think of so far, tho.

The real question to answer here is: what kind of useful information can touch provide us in most videogame genres?

I thought about this too, but I'm not really sure if its possible. If it is it would be a very cool new method of feedback over the 15 year old rumble technology. And it would prove a lot more useful than having it on the screen.
 

Akai

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VisanidethDM said:
The real question to answer here is: what kind of useful information can touch provide us in most videogame genres?

Reminds me of the old "What kind of useful information can two screens provide us in most videogame genres?" question when the DS was revealed...
 

plex

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[Nintex] said:
I've been told Cafe is(was?) also the name of the support forum on Nintendo's development website.
Wait, what?
So those leaked Café banners hadn't anything to do with the new console at all?
 

Michan

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Teknoman said:
Im not sure why people still go "lol nintendo gimmicks" anyway, since almost everything Nintendo introduces becomes a gaming staple at some point.
For every one staple, Nintendo releases at least half a dozen gimmicks, though.
 

Hiltz

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A haptic surface feature sound too gimmicky to me. Third-parties had a hard enough time using motion control in fun, creative, and responsive ways. How much faith can one put in third-parties when it comes to being able to feel textures in a game ?
 

Krev

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Yeah, if there's haptics they have to be in the grips. Makes a lot more sense than the screen as it would be cheaper to implement, be something you're touching at all times, and would better emulate the sensation of holding something. Pikmin would be amazing.

I remember reading a rumour back in the day that 'Revolution' would incorporate haptic feedback in the grips, funnily enough.
 
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Michan said:
For every one staple, Nintendo releases at least half a dozen gimmicks, though.

I wonder how true this is!

I can think of a few things that ended up being short-lived "gimmicks," like the e-Reader, handheld-to-console connectivity (arguably gimmicky) and, also arguably the Balance Board, but I can think of several things that have proliferated across multiple companies (D-pad, analog thumbstick, freestyle motion controller). I would try to make a chart myself, but I think it would be seen as "list wars" and too many things on the list could be argued as one instead of the other, anyway.
 

Father_Brain

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M74 said:
Again, we haven't seen it yet and we don't know how it will be used by developers. How can anyone properly judge their vision? The knee jerking by some people is hilarious.

We'll see. They'll have to present one hell of a compelling vision for it at E3 to justify both the probable expense of the controller and the enormous risk of abandoning the feature that made Wii so successful in the first place.
 

ksamedi

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Hiltz said:
A haptic surface feature sound too gimmicky to me. Third-parties had a hard enough time using motion control in fun, creative, and responsive ways. How much faith can one put in third-parties when it comes to being able to feel textures in a game ?

I don't think they will have a hard time. Its just that Nintendo released a gimped motion controller which gave even Nintendo a hard time. I've seen some excellent pointer games from many companies. And I'm pretty sure we would see some very cool motion controlled games like Zelda SS if third parties had the opportunity to use the Wii motion + from the start.
 

birdchili

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Hiltz said:
The Wii's Menu channel had the unecessary Weather and News Channels that you checked out once or twice and never bothered to go back to.
i still use the news channel all the time: easy interface when i want to troll the AP feed on the tv.

the weather channel was always too far behind to be useful.
 

poppabk

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ksamedi said:
I don't think they will have a hard time. Its just that Nintendo released a gimped motion controller which gave even Nintendo a hard time. I've seen some excellent pointer games from many companies. And I'm pretty sure we would see some very cool motion controlled games like Zelda SS if third parties had the opportunity to use the Wii motion + from the start.
The Godfather released very early on in the Wii's lifetime and it has probably the best motion controls by a third party and they were shoe-horned into an existing game.
 

miksar

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Pikmin 3 would be great to demonstrate the advantages of haptic feedback: various ways of interacting with pikmin, terrain, etc.

Also, imagine a horror game where you are almost blind and have to move around using touch and sound only.
 

StevieP

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poppabk said:
The Godfather released very early on in the Wii's lifetime and it has probably the best motion controls by a third party and they were shoe-horned into an existing game.

As I said in the other Cafe thread, games like the Godfather single-handedly sold motion controls as legit to me early in the Wii's life, even more than Wii Sports did (though bowling was a close second). It made playing GTA4 all that much more difficult, due to the regression of its control scheme. "Waggle", as its so lovingly dubbed, made the game WAY better.
 

Parl

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Lupin the Wolf said:
I wonder how true this is!

I can think of a few things that ended up being short-lived "gimmicks," like the e-Reader, handheld-to-console connectivity (arguably gimmicky) and, also arguably the Balance Board, but I can think of several things that have proliferated across multiple companies (D-pad, analog thumbstick, freestyle motion controller). I would try to make a chart myself, but I think it would be seen as "list wars" and too many things on the list could be argued as one instead of the other, anyway.
I think if the question is what hardware turned out to be a waste of time, the balance board surely can't be among them. Balance board is short-lived, but it doesn't take aware from the fact it (along with its chief software) was very successful, and certainly didn't miss the market.
 

EvilMario

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ksamedi said:
I don't think they will have a hard time. Its just that Nintendo released a gimped motion controller which gave even Nintendo a hard time. I've seen some excellent pointer games from many companies. And I'm pretty sure we would see some very cool motion controlled games like Zelda SS if third parties had the opportunity to use the Wii motion + from the start.

I'd say Motion+ has very little to do with motion controls being used properly. When the controls are horribly implemented (DKCR, SC Legends, most 3rd party titles), nothing will save them. But when they're in the right element (Metroid Prime 3, Trauma Centre, Silent Hill:SM) they can be wonderful.
 

ksamedi

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EvilMario said:
I'd say Motion+ has very little to do with motion controls being used properly. When the controls are horribly implemented (DKCR, SC Legends, most 3rd party titles), nothing will save them. But when they're in the right element (Metroid Prime 3, Trauma Centre, Silent Hill:SM) they can be wonderful.

I agree with you but it severely limits the type of games that can work with motion controls. The games you mention are about pointer controls, which work great but not about motion without pointer. There are only a handful of games that actually worked well with only motions like Wii sports or Wii Fit and stuff like that. True motion control gaming will come with the next generation.
 

Man God

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birdchili said:
i still use the news channel all the time: easy interface when i want to troll the AP feed on the tv.

the weather channel was always too far behind to be useful.

Weather has a fairly accurate five day for my area.

I love the AP feed though.
 
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