Support NeoGAF

[bgassassin]

Here.

Thanks. I see how I missed it.

 

[TheNatural]

The fact that we're talking about Nintendo "getting through" this holiday is at the heart of the problem. Hell, Nintendo SHOULD be supporting the Wii at least through holiday 2012 with a new release here and there. They're just letting it dry up and expect everyone to buy the new Wii U or end-of-life Wii licensed shovelware. Yet, they choose to not even release games in the U.S. that are complete. They've grown out of touch with their U.S. fans. Most other successful systems saw a limited release of games even after the successor has launched, but for the 3rd home console and running now, it seems as if Nintendo will abandon the installed base of the system in a blatant and nearly disrespectful manner - this time a good 6 months before Wii U even releases. For shame.

They're spread too thin and have no support. Trying to do basically four platforms at once and split the games up is a ridiculous task. They've managed to send off their two big systems with big games this year at least (Zelda Wii, Pokemon DS) with some decent side stuff, like Kirby and Mario Party.

This isn't any different than other consoles end of life cycle outside of the fact they don't have the third party support to back them up this late. It's not like Sony or Microsoft themselves have really put big releases of their own consistently at the end of their previous consoles life. Third parties did that, not them.

 

[guek]

Question is: will it have enough juice to do it without choppiness/jaggies/etc.?

better question: why does it matter? Unless nintendo forces native 1080p onto devs (they wont), most devs are going to produce games at 720p anyway just to get the little bit of extra juice. Why do you think the term "HD twins" are actually a misnomer?

 

[abstract alien]

I reeeeally wouldn't put it past nintendo to not distinguish between upscaled 1080p and native 1080p

At times, I tend to forget who I'm dealing with, as you are exactly right.

Question is: will it have enough juice to do it without choppiness/jaggies/etc.?

I'm sure its a concern for nintendo and their titles which are framerate depended will definitely run at their usual 60fps. Problem is that nintendo tends to think everyone can do what they can on their systems, so they won't have a clue that it is hard as hell for the rest of the developers outside of Shin'en lol

 

[abstract alien]

dp

 

[disap.ed]

From Beyond 3D:

I know a person who is an investor of MoSys and other technological companies, we talked about Wii U a few days ago and I became surprised with a comment from him about the new console:

"Wii U uses 28nm manufacturing process from NEC and 1T-SRAM from MoSys"

I asked him how he could know it and he told me that this information have been shared to the investors of MoSys because Nintendo partnership is the more important one for them and any signal of losing the deal can be very dangerous for the health of MoSys business. Since he isn´t a technical person I didn´t ask him about technical specs, but the 28nm comment was very interesting.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1582489&postcount=7715

As for the latest round of tech that we do know about, Yerli may not be particularly taken with the PlayStation Vita (Jones is more diplomatic, and says Crytek will work with the machine when the timing is right and the interest from licensees is significant) but he's excited about the Nintedo Wii U.

The specs are very good," Yerli enthuses.

"It's a challenge for designers, but once thought through it can add value, and that's what ultimately important. Our guys in Nottingham they are very happy with their tests on the dev kits and they're excited about it."

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1582363&postcount=7706

 

[IrishNinja]

nintendo wont release another new controller for wii U. They're going to run off the back of the classic controller. That's your non-tablet controller right there.

i might be imagining this, but wasn't something said @ E3 about the classic controller being used more? i absolutely would love having the option for wiimote & pad for games which utilize them better, and a default classic pro for everything else.

 

[Indyana]

From Beyond 3D:
"Wii U uses 28nm manufacturing process from NEC and 1T-SRAM from MoSys"

I wish they would use this manufacturing process to build its CPU and GPU.

 

[Naked Prime]

"Our guys in Nottingham"
Might that be Crytek UK, formerly Free Radical developers of Timesplitters......hmmmm

 

[Xun]

i might be imagining this, but wasn't something said @ E3 about the classic controller being used more? i absolutely would love having the option for wiimote & pad for games which utilize them better, and a default classic pro for everything else.

It would make sense, and I think it'll be redesigned.

I still doubt Nintendo will brand the Wii U the same as it currently has.

 

[disap.ed]

I wish they would use this manufacturing process to build its CPU and GPU.

Well, GPU probably will be built on 28nm too after all.

 

[fabricated backlash]

What was the former estimation? 45nm?

If so, isn't that considerably smaller, and more expensive?
Makes you wonder if Nintendo used e3 to gauge consumer interest and get feedback from 3rd parties to know how fast the final product should become.

 

[wsippel]

Assuming the 1T-SRAM rumor is correct, on Hollywood, the eTC is directly connected to the TEV units, right? And TEVs are basically TMUs on crack as far as I understand. Would it make sense to use a more modern GPU, but replace the TMUs with TEVs?

 

[Naked Prime]

Makes you wonder if Nintendo used e3 to gauge consumer interest and get feedback from 3rd parties to know how fast the final product should become.

Given how the 3DS's reception and NCL attempts to remedy it, this is more than likely so. I'd almost wanna say that next years E3 Wii U may look like a completely different machine that what we originally thought. More so in aesthetics & branding, but I suspect a modest bump in some specs (nothing to drastic though, this is Nintendo) over what they were originally planning to do.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

Has there been any word on whether they are putting in the Wii chips in there for perfect backwards compatibility?

Is is possible for them to use those same chips for other functions when not running Wii software? Like loading off the screen to the Wii's GPU?

 

[fabricated backlash]

Has there been any word on whether they are putting in the Wii chips in there for perfect backwards compatibility?

Is is possible for them to use those same chips for other functions when not running Wii software? Like loading off the screen to the Wii's GPU?

I guess they could, since I'd asume they have tons of those in their warehouse.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

What was the former estimation? 45nm?

If so, isn't that considerably smaller, and more expensive?
Makes you wonder if Nintendo used e3 to gauge consumer interest and get feedback from 3rd parties to know how fast the final product should become.

I would like to echo this question, what are the technical/commercial implications of this change if true?

 

[Indyana]

Well, GPU probably will be built on 28nm too after all.

I don't know. I believe it will be at 32nm.

What was the former estimation? 45nm?

If so, isn't that considerably smaller, and more expensive?
Makes you wonder if Nintendo used e3 to gauge consumer interest and get feedback from 3rd parties to know how fast the final product should become.

IBM revealed that their CPU will be at 45nm. AMD said nothing about their manufacturing process.

 

[fabricated backlash]

I don't know. I believe it will be at 32nm.
IBM revealed that their CPU will be at 45nm. AMD said nothing about their manufacturing process.

But does it even make sense to use different die sizes?

 

[Indyana]

But does it even make sense to use different die sizes?

IBM is going to produce the CPU at its factory, so I guess it makes sense to them.

 

[fabricated backlash]

IBM is going to produce the CPU at its factory, so I guess it makes sense to them.

So it has no effect on performance in the final architecture?

 

[Indyana]

So it has no effect on performance in the final architecture?

Oh, yes, it's going to drop compared to another smaller manufacturing process. It's bigger, it needs more energy, it needs better cooling.

 

[McHuj]

So it has no effect on performance in the final architecture?

Maybe indirectly, but not really. It would only really effect power consumption and manufacturing costs of the system.

I guess I'm a little surprised Nintendo would be going with a 28nm GPU, but that would certainly address the overheating rumors that we've been hearing about without the need to drop clock rates/reduce performance.

 

[StevieP]

Maybe indirectly, but not really. It would only really effect power consumption and manufacturing costs of the system.

I guess I'm a little surprised Nintendo would be going with a 28nm GPU, but that would certainly address the overheating rumors that we've been hearing about without the need to drop clock rates/reduce performance.

28nm GPUs are still not available to the mainstream AMD GPU consumer, let alone Nintendo's chip.

Perhaps MoSys is still a partner with WiiU for 1T-SRAM for backwards compatibility? I.e. if the Power7 derivative or the 476FP or whatever isn't perfectly BC with the G3 in the Wii? They'll put the Wii guts inside on an SoC along with the 24mb of MoSys ram? Just a thought.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I don't think the 28nm is in reference to the GPU. I think its probably just referencing the ram.

28nm GPUs are still not available to the mainstream AMD GPU consumer, let alone Nintendo's chip.

Perhaps MoSys is still a partner with WiiU for 1T-SRAM for backwards compatibility? I.e. if the Power7 derivative or the 476FP or whatever isn't perfectly BC with the G3 in the Wii? They'll put the Wii guts inside on an SoC along with the 24mb of MoSys ram? Just a thought.

Would it also be possible to have the Wii guts as a SoC driving the tablet screen? Or do we have confirmation that the Wii-U gpu is driving it?

 

[Jorok Goldblade]

Given how the 3DS's reception and NCL attempts to remedy it, this is more than likely so. I'd almost wanna say that next years E3 Wii U may look like a completely different machine that what we originally thought. More so in aesthetics & branding, but I suspect a modest bump in some specs (nothing to drastic though, this is Nintendo) over what they were originally planning to do.

I'd also expect a bump in the internal storage. Allowing the user to upgrade with any SD card, USB Flash drive or USB Hard drive they want is a great move but the rumored 8 gigs internal is not going to be nearly enough for a console that will need to store DLC and sell downloadable titles.

 

[bgassassin]

Thanks for the links disap.ed.

i might be imagining this, but wasn't something said @ E3 about the classic controller being used more? i absolutely would love having the option for wiimote & pad for games which utilize them better, and a default classic pro for everything else.

Yes. You can use all Wii controllers on Wii U. That's why Nintendo wouldn't need to make a "secondary" controller when they already have the CCPro. Now that doesn't mean we won't see tweaks made to the CCPro down the road, but they already have a non-screen alternate in place.

Assuming the 1T-SRAM rumor is correct, on Hollywood, the eTC is directly connected to the TEV units, right? And TEVs are basically TMUs on crack as far as I understand. Would it make sense to use a more modern GPU, but replace the TMUs with TEVs?

Considering ATI bought ArtX, couldn't we also assume that their post-Flipper GPUs have TMUs that were based on TEV?

"Our guys in Nottingham"
Might that be Crytek UK, formerly Free Radical developers of Timesplitters......hmmmm

Yes. Hmmmm indeed.

28nm GPUs are still not available to the mainstream AMD GPU consumer, let alone Nintendo's chip.

Perhaps MoSys is still a partner with WiiU for 1T-SRAM for backwards compatibility? I.e. if the Power7 derivative or the 476FP or whatever isn't perfectly BC with the G3 in the Wii? They'll put the Wii guts inside on an SoC along with the 24mb of MoSys ram? Just a thought.

I'm kinda shocked like McHuj, but if it's coming from NEC and not GlobalFoundries and TSMC, I can see it as a possibility since that latter two are providing their chips for multiple vendors. I didn't know this many companies were involved with the 28nm process.

http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/06/18/toshiba.28nm.deal.extends/

Toshiba and NEC together said today that they would extend their agreement with IBM to produce 28 nanometer chip technology. The deal sees the members of the larger alliance continuing to work on the smaller, more efficient technology with the intention of using it for home user products. They now also say they expected 28nm to be particularly useful for "mobile communication devices" such as smartphones.

...

Other members of the 28nm alliance include Chartered, AMD's former manufacturing arm GlobalFoundries, Infineon, Samsung and STMicroelectronics. These are likely to use 28nm for smaller, more powerful mobile chipsets, including probably ARM-based smartphone processors from Samsung and cellular chips from Infineon.

If Wii U is pulling this off, that kills the doubts I had about Xbox and PS using it as well.

I also believe the mentioning of the 1T-SRAM refers to it being embedded like many of us have believed before.

 

[McHuj]

28nm GPUs are still not available to the mainstream AMD GPU consumer, let alone Nintendo's chip.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

The WiiU isn't coming out for another 6-9 months (maybe more) so the today's availability of 28nm GPU's shouldn't be an indicator of anything. Anyway's, we'll probably have 28nm GPU's in consumer products this year. AMD already demonstrated one this week. And if they're publicly showing engineering samples, they probably had chips in labs several months ago.

 

[Luckyman]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

The WiiU isn't coming out for another 6-9 months (maybe more) so the today's availability of 28nm GPU's shouldn't be an indicator of anything. Anyway's, we'll probably have 28nm GPU's

They will be used in most expensive high end products first.. yields will be problem

 

[McHuj]

They will be used in most expensive high end products first.. yields will be problem

I know yields are going to be a problem at first. But it's a temporary problem.

My hope is that Nintendo is willing to live with that in the short term. I'm ready to be disappointed.

 

[sfried]

I know yields are going to be a problem at first. But it's a temporary problem.

My hope is that Nintendo is willing to live with that in the short term. I'm ready to be disappointed.

So do you think they will make the Wii U a console that sells close to a loss considering the measures they did with 3DS?

 

[Jin34]

The 28nm is about the ram, memory chips are less complex and thus ahead in node tech compared to gpu/cpus. Considering the likely release date of the Wii U it is just way too much of a risk to go with 28nm when that won't come out until the end of the year, likely rife with low yields and AMD/Nvidia and probably Apple.

http://semiaccurate.com/2011/09/08/exclusive-tsmc-raises-prices-on-amd-and-nvidia/

 

[bgassassin]

So do you think they will make the Wii U a console that sells close to a loss considering the measures they did with 3DS?

That's exactly what I'm expecting after what happened with the 3DS.

The 28nm is about the ram, memory chips are less complex and thus ahead in node tech compared to gpu/cpus. Considering the likely release date of the Wii U it is just way too much of a risk to go with 28nm when that won't come out until the end of the year, likely rife with low yields and AMD/Nvidia and probably Apple.

http://semiaccurate.com/2011/09/08/exclusive-tsmc-raises-prices-on-amd-and-nvidia/

I don't have much knowledge in this area, but to me that sounds like the GPU is going to be a 28nm chip and it's the process of implementing eDRAM (1T-SRAM in this case) on a fabrication of that size. For example NEC originally made the daughter-die for Xenos with production being switched over to TSMC. Here is the article from that.

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/pr/75

Production of 90nm Microsoft Graphics-Memory Subsystem Underway
Hsinchu, Taiwan, R.O.C. – August 15, 2007 - Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company, Ltd. (TSE: 2330, NYSE: TSM) today announced that Microsoft has started production of the Microsoft Xbox 360 graphics-memory subsystem using the TSMC 90nm embedded DRAM process. Designed to meet the needs of volume consumer electronics devices, the TSMC 90nm eDRAM process features a high-density macro design (80Mb) and fast performance to 500MHz

Xenos is 90nm. Separately, the eDRAM is 80Mbits (10MB).

And of course NEC was involved with Flipper and Hollywood (safe assumption) as well.

With that article, supply was a big thing I harped on as to why I didn't think 28nm was possible in any of the next consoles. But if Nintendo, Sony, and MS use someone that doesn't utilize TSMC, it may not be as big an issue. I didn't even think of other companies outside of TSMC and Globalfoundries.

But yeah, it sounds to me Wii U will have a 28nm GPU. Never even imagined that before today.

 

[Plinko]

If Crytek is happy with it and excited about the system that's a great sign.

 

[abstract alien]

If Crytek is happy with it and excited about the system that's a great sign.

I'm honestly wondering if it has to do with them actually being happy with it, or if they are merely running the course because they can now port from the other two without much trouble.

 

[Plinko]

I'm honestly wondering if it has to do with them actually being happy with it, or if they are merely running the course because they can now port from the other two without much trouble.

That was my initial reaction as well but after recently hearing what they actually want to see in next-gen systems and then coming right out and saying the phrase, "the specs are very good," my hopes are higher.

 

[bgassassin]

If Crytek is happy with it and excited about the system that's a great sign.

If it gets us TS4, I'm down. That seems to be the type of FPS I would enjoy.

 

[Cow Mengde]

8 Gigabytes of RAM baby!

 

[guek]

I'm gonna say...2gb minimum of ram if crytek is actually "happy."

 

[Mithos]

If Crytek is happy with it and excited about the system that's a great sign.

I missed this, when did they say this?

 

[Jin34]

I missed this, when did they say this?

Post 6011 has a quote from Crytek.

 

[Lord Ghirahim]

It could always be the case that Crytek doesn't acknowledge it as a "next-generation" system. That statement is pretty empty.

 

[BurntPork]

That's exactly what I'm expecting after what happened with the 3DS.



I don't have much knowledge in this area, but to me that sounds like the GPU is going to be a 28nm chip and it's the process of implementing eDRAM (1T-SRAM in this case) on a fabrication of that size. For example NEC originally made the daughter-die for Xenos with production being switched over to TSMC. Here is the article from that.

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/pr/75



Xenos is 90nm. Separately, the eDRAM is 80Mbits (10MB).

And of course NEC was involved with Flipper and Hollywood (safe assumption) as well.

With that article, supply was a big thing I harped on as to why I didn't think 28nm was possible in any of the next consoles. But if Nintendo, Sony, and MS use someone that doesn't utilize TSMC, it may not be as big an issue. I didn't even think of other companies outside of TSMC and Globalfoundries.

But yeah, it sounds to me Wii U will have a 28nm GPU. Never even imagined that before today.

I really don't think you should get excited. 28nm for a GPU would be ridiculously expensive right now, and they'd have to be looking to put in quite a bit of power if they're going that small; definitely enough that there shouldn't be doubt over whether or not it's significantly more powerful than current consoles unless they're really not even trying. That said, we haven't heard anything about Wii U hardware in months, so something may have changed there.

EDIT: Just saw the Crytek quote. Hm... Interesting.

 

[guek]

It could always be the case that Crytek doesn't acknowledge it as a "next-generation" system. That statement is pretty empty.

yeah...or they could.

Why would devs be excited about using redundant hardware? And why would they talk about "challenge" and "adding value?"

I thought maybe they were just talking about trying to use the new controller for a sec but Yerli specifies clearly that they're talking about specs.

Of course, it could still all be PR speak, but it's definitely a good sign. Yeah, something a bit more quantitative would be nice but they probably aren't able to talk too much about specifics at the moment.

 

[ZAK]

Makes you wonder if Nintendo used e3 to gauge consumer interest and get feedback from 3rd parties to know how fast the final product should become.

I dunno about that exact sequence of events, but considering the way they seem to be trying to address 3DS concerns as directly as they can, I do wonder what it means for the Wii U. Is this a general trend of listening to outside opinions, or do they consider the 3DS particularly catastrophic?

 

[bgassassin]

Little guek growded up. I still fell Crytek did that to have people get some perspective about the next consoles and what not to expect.

I really don't think you should get excited. 28nm for a GPU would be ridiculously expensive right now, and they'd have to be looking to put in quite a bit of power if they're going that small; definitely enough that there shouldn't be doubt over whether or not it's significantly more powerful than current consoles unless they're really not even trying. That said, we haven't heard anything about Wii U hardware in months, so something may have changed there.

Who said I was excited? I'm more shocked at the possibility than anything else. The cost is something I've believe to be an issue as well and like I mentioned I didn't expect any of the new consoles to use it.

And you refuse to let go of the "Power relates to size" argument I see. Considering the Wii used 18w, it could be just as easily said that they are trying to keep the Wii U as low as possible as well. I'm all for them cramming as much as possible under the hood without pricing it out of my range, but that's definitely not an indicator of a power increase. And at the same time we'd have to have a tangible origination point to say something truly changed. A first dev kit isn't a good one since we all know it's a poor man's version of the final hardware.

 

[watershed]

So for someone like me who doesn't even know what 28nm means, what does it mean for the wii u, if its true?

 

[BurntPork]

Little guek growded up. I still fell Crytek did that to have people get some perspective about the next consoles and what not to expect.



Who said I was excited? I'm more shocked at the possibility than anything else. The cost is something I've believe to be an issue as well and like I mentioned I didn't expect any of the new consoles to use it.

And you refuse to let go of the "Power relates to size" argument I see. Considering the Wii used 18w, it could be just as easily said that they are trying to keep the Wii U as low as possible as well. I'm all for them cramming as much as possible under the hood without pricing it out of my range, but that's definitely not an indicator of a power increase. And at the same time we'd have to have a tangible origination point to say something truly changed. A first dev kit isn't a good one since we all know it's a poor man's version of the final hardware.

I was talking about the node when I said small.

So for someone like me who doesn't even know what 28nm means, what does it mean for the wii u, if its true?

If Nintendo were to use that for the GPU, they could easily make the console much more powerful than the current gen. 5x would be the low-end estimate, and 8x would be the high-end, even taking case size into consideration.

However, it really doesn't seem likely that a mid 2012 console would use 28nm.

 

[Azure J]

I'm gonna say...2gb minimum of ram if crytek is actually "happy."

Oh snap, please as punch if this turns out true. The Crytek comment has brought a little flare of hype back to this in my eyes.

Can't wait to see if Nintendo delivers a SSJ2 Gohan of a console.

 

[guek]

Oh snap, please as punch if this turns out true. The Crytek comment has brought a little flare of hype back to this in my eyes.

Can't wait to see if Nintendo delivers a SSJ2 Gohan of a console.

I wonder how people would respond if nintendo put out a monster of a console but took a tremendous hit and sold it for around $350.

Would the entire internet do an immediate 180? Or would they 360 degrees and walk away?

Even in such an unlikely scenario, they'd probably still get a ton of flack for their online network.