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Wii U Speculation Thread The Third: Casting Dreams in The Castle of Miyamoto

The_Ayertosco

Member
Feb 18, 2007
122
0
0
Italy
Well, my 720\ps4 guesses were based only on the rumors i read, i really don't know anything of these platsforms . Onestly, i don't think that there are a lot of studios that can afford a really next gen asset (example, a Samaritan demo quality on a entire game). Too much money\risks involved, and an insane amount of money to be put on a new hardware to be sold on an economically difficult moment, expecially for Sony. How many would pay $600 for a next-gen hardware. It's 2012 and not 2004, when the times were good (at least for an italian guy like me). So i think that Nintendo way is the right one.
 

ColdBlooder

Banned
Aug 24, 2006
2,199
0
0
Ehm... Meaningless numbers aside, the Wii U hardware is several generations ahead of the PS360 generation. It's not using 2004/ 2005 technology.
People unaware on how a CPU works think that a "3core 3,2ghz 2 way smt" from 2004/5 is the same than a "3core 3,2ghz 2 way smt from 2009/10" because the numbers are the same. That the newer CPU has more features and functions, cache latencies/sizes etc... wich increase performance and even propably a way higher IPC than the older generation is unknown to them...


I'm not an expert on this but there is alot more that goes into making a cpu then amount of cores and clockspeeds!
 

frankie_baby

Member
May 3, 2007
18,401
0
0
People unaware on how a CPU works think that a "3core 3,2ghz 2 way smt" from 2004/5 is the same than a "3core 3,2ghz 2 way smt in 2009/10" because the numbers are the same. That the newer CPU has more features and functions cache latencies/sizes etc... wich increase performance and propably a way higher IPC than the older generation is unknown to them...


I'm not an expert on this but there is alot more that goes into making a cpu then amount of cores and clockspeeds!
There are many people that just undwrstand nothing more than numbers when it comes to it, hell many people thought the xbox had a more powerful cpu than the gamecube simply because it had moar mhz!!!!
 

z0m3le

Banned
Jun 16, 2011
3,883
1
0
36
Seattle, WA
www.notenoughshaders.com
People unaware on how a CPU works think that a "3core 3,2ghz 2 way smt" from 2004/5 is the same than a "3core 3,2ghz 2 way smt from 2009/10" because the numbers are the same. That the newer CPU has more features and functions, cache latencies/sizes etc... wich increase performance and even propably a way higher IPC than the older generation is unknown to them...


I'm not an expert on this but there is alot more that goes into making a cpu then amount of cores and clockspeeds!
you forgot a large increase in transistors, 165 million transistors for the original Xenon @ 90nm process, could be over 600 million with the Wii U using a 45nm process. (just dirty 4x estimate) People don't even look at transistor counts, but it's important, the architecture has improved a lot since 2005, so you can assume a very powerful processor compared to 360s, especially considering that it is OoOE and won't waste cycles.
 

Krev

Unconfirmed Member
May 8, 2009
10,606
0
0
Onestly, i don't think that there are a lot of studios that can afford a really next gen asset (example, a Samaritan demo quality on a entire game). Too much money\risks involved, and an insane amount of money to be put on a new hardware to be sold on an economically difficult moment, expecially for Sony. How many would pay $600 for a next-gen hardware. It's 2012 and not 2004, when the times were good (at least for an italian guy like me). So i think that Nintendo way is the right one.
I think it's definitely going to help win them support from Japan, where the entire console development sphere still seems shaken from the HD transition.
 

Donnie

Member
Mar 24, 2005
2,860
18
1,415
I do. Nothing on PS2 even comes close to Ninja Gaiden, Doom 3, Conker, or the XBox version of Chaos Theory. With those shader capabilities, it was practically half a generation ahead techwise. There had never been such a stark difference between two consoles of the same gen before that, and not counting Nintendo holding back we'll probably never see anything like it again. If Wii had the XBox's graphics tech combined with Wii's increased horsepower, a lot more people would have been satisfied with Wii's graphics.
I actually agree with everything you just said :)
 

Donnie

Member
Mar 24, 2005
2,860
18
1,415
I don't understand technical mumbo jumbo, but someone told me that more middleware being applied could loosen stress on the processor or something like that.
Sounds like he could have meant moving tasks such as sound and IO from the main CPU to the dedicated hardware.
 

wsippel

Banned
May 25, 2006
14,534
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Erfurt, Germany
I'm talking about capabilities and that's what they told me (people that are working on it). They're friends and i don't think they lied but they're designers\artists and not tech whores\programmers so i personally think that game studios can make great things with it with a more modern tech even if the raw power seems similar.
Well, in the tech space, when you talk about "capabilities", you typically mean features, not raw performance. Even if the computational performance is in the same ballpark, it's still more modern and capable hardware, and can therefore do things that would be prohibitive or outright impossible on PS360.
 
Jun 28, 2011
707
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470
Poland
Does anyone think there might be 2 Wii U SKUs at launch? Like the PS3, 360 and Vita?

Maybe 1 option with a single pad, and an option with 2 pads? Or 1 with a pad and a wiimote/nunchuck and 1 with just a pad?

Thoughts?
 

AceBandage

Banned
Mar 22, 2007
35,549
0
0
Does anyone think there might be 2 Wii U SKUs at launch? Like the PS3, 360 and Vita?

Maybe 1 option with a single pad, and an option with 2 pads? Or 1 with a pad and a wiimote/nunchuck and 1 with just a pad?

Thoughts?
Nope.
1 Sku until years from now when they bundle different games with it.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
May 23, 2006
40,788
0
0
Does anyone think there might be 2 Wii U SKUs at launch? Like the PS3, 360 and Vita?

Maybe 1 option with a single pad, and an option with 2 pads? Or 1 with a pad and a wiimote/nunchuck and 1 with just a pad?

Thoughts?
No, they're gonna K.I.S.S.

Shame, I would like one with a harddrive and a second padlet.
 

BurntPork

Banned
May 12, 2011
6,808
0
0
New York
I'm talking about capabilities and that's what they told me (people that are working on it). They're friends and i don't think they lied but they're designers\artists and not tech whores\programmers so i personally think that game studios can make great things with it with a more modern tech even if the raw power seems similar.
And yet someone here just said the opposite not too long ago. Is the universe trying to balance itself? Lol.


Maybe Wii U is just difficult to develop for. That's the only logical explanation. Devs that take the extra time to learn it see that it's noticeably more powerful, and those that don't only get it running on par or slightly weaker.
 

AceBandage

Banned
Mar 22, 2007
35,549
0
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And yet someone here just said the opposite not too long ago. Is the universe trying to balance itself? Lol.


Maybe Wii U is just difficult to develop for. That's the only logical explanation. Devs that take the extra time to learn it see that it's noticeably more powerful, and those that don't only get it running on par or slightly weaker.
We already know what the problem is.
The Wii U has different pipelines for things (Like Audio and I/O) and some devs are just slapping middleware onto the system thinking it's just a 360 and they're getting bad results.
It's not that it's hard to develop for, it's that it takes some tweaking.
 

specialguy

Banned
Feb 17, 2011
4,527
0
630
And the Wii U will have 7 years over the Xbox 360. Sigh, how I long for the olden days of monstrous generational leaps.



Dreamcast effectively was 10x more powerful than the N64, and the PS2 was dramatically more powerful than it. We'll be LUCKY to get a 6 x leap with the Loop/Durango/Orbis. Generational leaps aren't what they used to be.
And you know that because next gen is out? A bunch of rumors mean little, that should be obvious with how practically each one contradicts the last. I expect at least the next Xbox to provide a true generational leap.


Also, PS2 wasn't dramatically more powerful than DC imo...more powerful yes, dramatically, no. IMO they were from the same generation.
 

DrWong

Member
Nov 17, 2011
4,152
0
0
And yet someone here just said the opposite not too long ago. Is the universe trying to balance itself? Lol.


Maybe Wii U is just difficult to develop for. That's the only logical explanation. Devs that take the extra time to learn it see that it's noticeably more powerful, and those that don't only get it running on par or slightly weaker.
I agree. But according to what we know/speculate no need to use "difficult" (negative vibes), "different" (i.e > dedicated silicon, DSP...) also works
 

Taker666

Member
Apr 26, 2005
4,060
3
0
Does anyone think there might be 2 Wii U SKUs at launch? Like the PS3, 360 and Vita?

Maybe 1 option with a single pad, and an option with 2 pads? Or 1 with a pad and a wiimote/nunchuck and 1 with just a pad?

Thoughts?
I just hope they launch with a base colour other than white...and try and make the packaging as different from the current Wii as possible.

With some already thinking the Wii U is just an add-on controller....keeping the base colour the same as the original Wii will lead to even more confusion. They'll end up with the same branding mess they had with the 3DS.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
May 23, 2006
40,788
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0
And you know that because next gen is out? A bunch of rumors mean little, that should be obvious with how practically each one contradicts the last. I expect at least the next Xbox to provide a true generational leap.


Also, PS2 wasn't dramatically more powerful than DC imo...more powerful yes, dramatically, no. IMO they were from the same generation.
Uh, well they kinda were in the same generation, or some may argue Dreamcast created its own niche generation, but it certainly wasn't in the 32 bit generation.

Going from the N64 to Gamecube, PS1 to PS2 was well over a 10 x increase in power (geez comparing that Transformers game on PS2 to anything on PS1, I mean that's more like 30, 40x the complexity in almost every metric), shoot Saturn to Dreamcast was well over 10x. We will not see that again. Sorry. At best the next gen Xbox is 10x the 360 and that's pushing it.
 

nintendors

Member
Sep 10, 2011
517
0
0
I just hope they launch with a base colour other than white...and try and make the packaging as different from the current Wii as possible.

With some already thinking the Wii U is just an add-on controller....keeping the base colour the same as the original Wii will lead to even more confusion. They'll end up with the same branding mess they had with the 3DS.
what branding mess ??


when Nintendo says this is the next generation "Wii" and show games for it ,,,99% of people would go to stores and buy it ((people who want the next generation "wii" that its ))
 

richman555

Member
Sep 17, 2005
576
0
0
48
Penns Woods
I believe that the Wii U will blow away current Wii games with a move to HD. This would be plenty good enough for a lot of people. PS4/Xbox720 will be very similar to each other.

I do wish Nintendo would employ multiple tablets and do away with connectivity to the TV. This way it would stand out as something completely different.
 

AceBandage

Banned
Mar 22, 2007
35,549
0
0
I believe that the Wii U will blow away current Wii games with a move to HD. This would be plenty good enough for a lot of people. PS4/Xbox720 will be very similar to each other.

I do wish Nintendo would employ multiple tablets and do away with connectivity to the TV. This way it would stand out as something completely different.
Eh, people still enjoy TV gaming, though. And making it a console that you can only use on your tablets seems rather pointless.
 

Mlatador

Banned
Jun 28, 2011
5,093
0
0
They should release a Wii U game, where your main objective is to speculate about the successor to the Wii U.

It's got online support.
 

The_Ayertosco

Member
Feb 18, 2007
122
0
0
Italy
Well, in the tech space, when you talk about "capabilities", you typically mean features, not raw performance. Even if the computational performance is in the same ballpark, it's still more modern and capable hardware, and can therefore do things that would be prohibitive or outright impossible on PS360.
Yep, i think it might be as this too. And again, my friends are game designer so tech wise he doesn't really know how much capable is the system probably. By the way, a lot of memory added to a 360 would produce great things even with a 6 years old tech graphically speaking, personally it would be enough. Not talking about complex things as physics, Ai, deferred lighting and so on obviously.
 

ColdBlooder

Banned
Aug 24, 2006
2,199
0
0
I believe that the Wii U will blow away current Wii games with a move to HD. This would be plenty good enough for a lot of people. PS4/Xbox720 will be very similar to each other.

I do wish Nintendo would employ multiple tablets and do away with connectivity to the TV. This way it would stand out as something completely different.
I love the idea of having the possibility to game anywhere in my home without having to use the TV but the TV will still be the main "Gaming display device"...

The possibility to switch to the uPad is "just" an extremely nice option!
 

NeoRausch

Member
Jan 18, 2012
7,826
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0
39
Germany
You know what i want from my next gen hd nintendo console?

Lightning Bolts
Racestripes
big rims
hydraulics to let it jump

oh and candy apple colors!
 

Log4Girlz

Member
May 23, 2006
40,788
0
0
I wish Nintendo and Valve got really close and not only does Nintendo use Steam Tech, but anyone developing games for Nintendo's service gets an almost automatic green light for Steam PC. Why would this benefit Nintendo? By making Nintendo the safe bet to develop indie games for, or to release DD games as you lower your risks. They simply make more money from royalties that way.
 

z0m3le

Banned
Jun 16, 2011
3,883
1
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36
Seattle, WA
www.notenoughshaders.com
Yep, i think it might be as this too. And again, my friends are game designer so tech wise he doesn't really know how much capable is the system probably. By the way, a lot of memory added to a 360 would produce great things even with a 6 years old tech graphically speaking, personally it would be enough. Not talking about complex things as physics, Ai, deferred lighting and so on obviously.
Yeah, I have a friend who works at microsoft, in the xbox division, but he doesn't really talk about the console much, we've discussed the Wii U and he keeps up with the rumors, I think once the Wii U actually comes out, he'll compare it to the 720 with me, but he has said that they are working on a tablet for the 720 (which isn't what he calls it, he just says the next xbox)

Personally I think the only way PS720 is going to be really different than Wii U is if they use a second GPU for OpenCL, that's about the most interesting thing they could do for the systems... could mean a lot of timed exclusives for Wii U early on, as those versions might be ready before the others.

It will be an interesting generation.
 

HylianTom

Banned
May 3, 2007
21,074
0
0
Loving life in Uptown NOLA.
Yeah, I have a friend who works at microsoft, in the xbox division, but he doesn't really talk about the console much, we've discussed the Wii U and he keeps up with the rumors, I think once the Wii U actually comes out, he'll compare it to the 720 with me, but he has said that they are working on a tablet for the 720 (which isn't what he calls it, he just says the next xbox)

Personally I think the only way PS720 is going to be really different than Wii U is if they use a second GPU for OpenCL, that's about the most interesting thing they could do for the systems... could mean a lot of timed exclusives for Wii U early on, as those versions might be ready before the others.

It will be an interesting generation.
That would be interesting if Microsoft does indeed take Nintendo's tablet bait from last year. Two consoles with controllers featuring tablet input.
 

Taker666

Member
Apr 26, 2005
4,060
3
0
what branding mess ??


when Nintendo says this is the next generation "Wii" and show games for it ,,,99% of people would go to stores and buy it ((people who want the next generation "wii" that its ))
The branding mess where people essentially thought it was another minor iteration of the same old DS ..but with 3D. The branding mess where some stores just stick all the 3DS stuff on shelves with the normal DS stuff and not even have a seperate section. Even now there are online stores with no seperate 3DS section..everything just thrown in together as if the DS/DSi and 3DS are the same machine. The logo made it look like another DS iteration, the packaging made it look like just another DS iteration. Terrible branding for a wholly new product IMO.

...and Wii U is following a similar path..hence the confusion by some when the Wii U was revealed. In the UK one of our biggest newspapers ran a story saying the Wii U was a new controller for the current Wii. Plenty of people still believe that. They need to make it look like a completely new machine..not just a Wii with a new controller.
 

joshwaan

Member
Sep 6, 2009
645
27
765
Australia
I wish Nintendo and Valve got really close and not only does Nintendo use Steam Tech, but anyone developing games for Nintendo's service gets an almost automatic green light for Steam PC. Why would this benefit Nintendo? By making Nintendo the safe bet to develop indie games for, or to release DD games as you lower your risks. They simply make more money from royalties that way.
Man that would sweet if that happened and it may very well happen Value seem very happy with the Wii U.
 

z0m3le

Banned
Jun 16, 2011
3,883
1
0
36
Seattle, WA
www.notenoughshaders.com
That would be interesting if Microsoft does indeed take Nintendo's tablet bait from last year. Two consoles with controllers featuring tablet input.
It's a work in progress, and they might sell it separately, but all I really got out of my friend at the time (didn't really ask him, we were talking about the Wii U and he brought it up) was that They were working on a tablet too, but that it wasn't in the devkits yet... this was sometime around the beginning of the year though, and his info might of been a month old or so as he was with family for the holidays.
 

Dragon

Banned
Jul 7, 2007
24,879
0
0
We already know what the problem is.
The Wii U has different pipelines for things (Like Audio and I/O) and some devs are just slapping middleware onto the system thinking it's just a 360 and they're getting bad results.
It's not that it's hard to develop for, it's that it takes some tweaking.
I didn't know you were a developer and/or had access to a WiiU dev unit. Anything else you can tell us about the specs?
 

BurntPork

Banned
May 12, 2011
6,808
0
0
New York
We already know what the problem is.
The Wii U has different pipelines for things (Like Audio and I/O) and some devs are just slapping middleware onto the system thinking it's just a 360 and they're getting bad results.
It's not that it's hard to develop for, it's that it takes some tweaking.
I'm beginning to wonder, actually. I mean, for devs to be so incredibly polar, it probably means that the tweaking takes more effort than many devs would like, especially if these guys are telling their friends and the media that it's weaker and don't even realize that it's an issue on their end.

Though, perhaps DrWong is correct in saying "different." Wii U's API has more in common with the PS3 than the 360, but the hardware has more in common with the 360 than the PS3. That alone could require a fair bit of relearning.

And you know that because next gen is out? A bunch of rumors mean little, that should be obvious with how practically each one contradicts the last. I expect at least the next Xbox to provide a true generational leap.


Also, PS2 wasn't dramatically more powerful than DC imo...more powerful yes, dramatically, no. IMO they were from the same generation.
The same could be said of the Wii U rumors, though, and yet people somehow take sides. The only thing we can do for all three consoles is to look at everything we have and try to piece it together. Rumors contradicting each other doesn't mean that they're wrong. We need to figure out if there's a reason for the contradictions first. We might just find that the current rumored "weak" set-ups are just alpha kits because they can't get enough SI GPUs yet.
 

darthdago

Member
Nov 29, 2011
336
0
0
Germany
OMG around 25 new pages...
WTF has happened?
New rumors about the Wii U?

I tried to read some pages but its an up and down...

So are we again up or down, I'm confused...and my head...
 

BurntPork

Banned
May 12, 2011
6,808
0
0
New York
He's actually talking about facts that are known. (like that the Wii U has a chip for audio unlike ps360)
You're going to fight a losing battle here. He's going to ask for an official spec sheet to prove it, and we don't have that.

OMG around 25 new pages...
WTF has happened?
New rumors about the Wii U?

I tried to read some pages but its an up and down...

So are we again up or down, I'm confused...and my head...
Me
No RE6 on Wii U
Me
Aliens is "not a port"
Me
ShockingAlberto's sources said something along the lines of PS360 ---> Wii U being similar to PS2 ---> XBox and then The_Ayertosco said that it's equal to 360 but with more RAM
Me
 

HylianTom

Banned
May 3, 2007
21,074
0
0
Loving life in Uptown NOLA.
The branding mess where people essentially thought it was another minor iteration of the same old DS ..but with 3D. The branding mess where some stores just stick all the 3DS stuff on shelves with the normal DS stuff and not even have a seperate section. Even now there are online stores with no seperate 3DS section..everything just thrown in together as if the DS/DSi and 3DS are the same machine. The logo made it look like another DS iteration, the packaging made it look like just another DS iteration. Terrible branding for a wholly new product IMO.

...and Wii U is following a similar path..hence the confusion by some when the Wii U was revealed. In the UK one of our biggest newspapers ran a story saying the Wii U was a new controller for the current Wii. Plenty of people still believe that. They need to make it look like a completely new machine..not just a Wii with a new controller.
I don't get how a reporter can mess that kind of thing up. If they were paying attention to the conference, it was quite clear that Nintendo was talking about a new home console.

What do they need to do? Have "NEW HOME CONSOLE SYSTEM" in huge lettering scrolling across the screen during their slideshow and video footage? I see people faulting Nintendo for supposedly not being clear enough on this, but it's pretty damn obvious that those folks simply were not paying attention. My criticism goes doubly so for those there in person: you're at the friggin' Nintendo E3 conference, an event that millions would kill to go to - and yet you're not paying attention?!? C'mon.. do your f'in job!

I'm HylianTom, and this has been another installment of "What Grinds HylianTom's Gears." Thanks.
 

z0m3le

Banned
Jun 16, 2011
3,883
1
0
36
Seattle, WA
www.notenoughshaders.com
You're going to fight a losing battle here. He's going to ask for an official spec sheet to prove it, and we don't have that.
Not that I really care about fighting a console war, we do have some official word about the audio chip, it's also not really all that surprising as Gamecube and Wii have both had them, so if I need to go dig up the evidence, I will... but it's really common sense at this point.