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Will cyberpunk psn removal have a ripple affect across the industry? Or will it just fizzle out.

Umbasaborne

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First thread here. Been thinking about the long term effects of cyberpunk. A few years ago, from about 2013-2015, games coming out broken was the norm, not the exception. That changed obviously, but i feel like cyberpunk could change the way information is rolled out pre-release, and maybe even the amount of time big games spend cooking.

Id imagine the games removal from psn spooked some publishers. Will we see less early release date announcements, with more publishers taking the “when its ready”’approach that is so popular among the independent scene?
Will we see less actual gameplay until a game is extremely close to launch so that no one has unrealistic expectations?


The flood gates are open now, and I'm not sure if they can be shut. If cyberpunk
Was removed for being broken, and people will have come to expect digital refunds on consoles for broken games, whats to stop battlefield 6 from being removed if the multiplayer doesnt work for a while like battlefield 4? Or if starfield comes out with bugs and lots of hard crashes? Would mass effect andromeda had been removed if it came out recently in the busted state it launched in?

Conversely this might not change anything. Cyberpunks broken release will be a flash in the pan. Unrealistic release dates that will inevitably be pushed back will be announced far too early. Devs will still continue to show unrealistic gameplay footage only to severely cut features and downgrade visuals closer to launch. I think, in a post covid world, games will still launch incredibly buggy. Hell, call of duty is supposed to be rock solidyet black ops cold war hard crashed on me twice on series x.

(im not here to shit on cyberpunk, i actually quite like the game, but i have to acknowledge the rough state it launched in)
 

EverydayBeast

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I remember games launching with bugs, glitches etc. for the past 20 years perhaps more often, and it’s why gamers are confident in updates. Really seemed like haters were trying to drive a wedge between Cyberpunk and the rest of video games.
 

Umbasaborne

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I remember games launching with bugs, glitches etc. for the past 20 years perhaps more often, and it’s why gamers are confident in updates. Really seemed like haters were trying to drive a wedge between Cyberpunk and the rest of video games.

i think for some reason cyberpunk’s brokeness got everyones attention this time. Not just gamers. So it was amplified by the media in a way that the broken master chief collection wasn’t. But i cant shake the feeling that, as far as digital refunds and digital store removal go, this will have a wider effect on the entire industry. Like i said, the gate has been opened even if just a little, and i dont know if it can or should be shut.
 

Umbasaborne

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Nobody wants to be cyberpunk 2.0.

But I also blame Sony and MS trusting their day one patch promises as they would have had to certify it before allowing a release.

precisely. I definitely think that halo infinites year long delay wasn’t only influenced by the reception to the graphics, but also the state that mcc launched in, as well as what just happened with cyberpunk.
 

Umbasaborne

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It only got removed, because CDPR told buyers to ak for refund, otherwise it's not going to happened I believe. Also no game probably ever got relased (well Batman City did on PC got removed for similar reasons) in such state, that it was really unplayable...

yeah didn’t mkx get removed as well? I knew this wasn’t uncommon on pc, but were definitely not used to it happening to a major game on consoles
 

M1chl

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yeah didn’t mkx get removed as well? I knew this wasn’t uncommon on pc, but were definitely not used to it happening to a major game on consoles
Not familiar with MK X (I am not gfighting games fan), but yeah. Anyway it would be a good thing imho, if this would started fair refunds on consoles or straight up "wait until fixed"....
 

cormack12

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i think for some reason cyberpunk’s brokeness got everyones attention this time. Not just gamers. So it was amplified by the media in a way that the broken master chief collection wasn’t. But i cant shake the feeling that, as far as digital refunds and digital store removal go, this will have a wider effect on the entire industry. Like i said, the gate has been opened even if just a little, and i dont know if it can or should be shut.

Honestly it was because so many external sources wanted a pop at CDPR. The coverage of 'crunch', the ridiculous and unfounded 'transphobia' campaign etc. It became the safe, popular game to hate to show how different you were from Gamers™

Take a look at the Valhalla forums, how many progression stopping quest bugs are in there? Lootables that can't be gathered, quests disappearing, NPCs disappearing. No fish spawning in water bodies, preorder bonuses not of the right quality tier, quick switch/resume crashing etc.

For their own IPs look no further than Godfall, hard locks and crashes in the tower (which is a two hour trial to get to level 50 and crashes on level 49), perks not proccing, dreamstone crashes and lock, randomly floating in AToT, bugs that stop you running or healing etc. memory leaks when augment equip load is higher than 95, constant stutters and frame locks, random mission fails when no one dies etc.

It was hypocritical imo and not made for the right reasons. It was an easy 'win' against social pressure rather than Sony trying to enforce some sort of quality assurance.
 
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jm89

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Don't offer refunds on behalf of sony and you might get away with it.
 

harmny

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As long as the developer doesn't offer refunds you won't see the game removed from the ps store. PlayStation doesn't give a shit. They just don't want to give players their money back
 

Kamina

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I still sont get why they removed it completely and not just took it down from any list, only making it findable if you use search.
 

Moogle11

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I think the blowback in general will have some impact. Developers will have more leverage to tell their investors to be patient vs. rush out games that aren’t ready. Better to wait to make huge profits than rush and risk losing money.

At the same time, may lead to even more playing it safe in the AAA space. Budgets are too big to take big risks and do things hugely ambitious as investors forking over a ton of money are going to want to see returns sooner than later. Safer to fund sequels and monetized service games to make a quick return.
 

FranXico

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I still sont get why they removed it completely and not just took it down from any list, only making it findable if you use search.
Because of how their store works. When a game is delisted, it's gone from the frontend. Only visible in user download lists.
 
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KingT731

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Honestly it was because so many external sources wanted a pop at CDPR. The coverage of 'crunch', the ridiculous and unfounded 'transphobia' campaign etc. It became the safe, popular game to hate to show how different you were from Gamers™

Take a look at the Valhalla forums, how many progression stopping quest bugs are in there? Lootables that can't be gathered, quests disappearing, NPCs disappearing. No fish spawning in water bodies, preorder bonuses not of the right quality tier, quick switch/resume crashing etc.

For their own IPs look no further than Godfall, hard locks and crashes in the tower (which is a two hour trial to get to level 50 and crashes on level 49), perks not proccing, dreamstone crashes and lock, randomly floating in AToT, bugs that stop you running or healing etc. memory leaks when augment equip load is higher than 95, constant stutters and frame locks, random mission fails when no one dies etc.

It was hypocritical imo and not made for the right reasons. It was an easy 'win' against social pressure rather than Sony trying to enforce some sort of quality assurance.
Godfall is not a Sony IP.
 
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Rikkori

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It only got removed because Sony got butthurt by CDPR saying you can refund on their store, that's all. ACV & WDL had way worse launches even on those platforms this fall. This is just corpo dick-waving. It will be back soon enough, don't you worry, because for as much as Sony wants to say theirs is bigger the truth is they're at the mercy of such publishers too, especially in light of what MS is doing and what others are gearing up to do. Can't be too arrogant just yet, they're still mostly a small fish.
 
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NahaNago

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It will fizzle out. It only got removed because of the refund situation. Plenty of companies release buggy and trashy games on psn.
 
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Cyberpunk is a very rare case and I think people seem to miss that point. Most AAA games don't release in such a bad state like Cyberpunk did.

Witcher 3, Skyrim and other AAA open world games have released with some bugs and glitches but nothing to the extent that we saw from cyberpunk.
 
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KingT731

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Third party console exclusive then......do you want to contribute or just a 'sony defence corrector?'
Just correcting YOU good buddy. Not defending anything, more of a statement of fact. But really in the grand scheme of this conversation removing CP2077 from the PS store makes sense in context of the wording of their refund policy. No it's not perfect or ANYWHERE close but you can't direct everyone to get a refund and at the same time say your product isn't faulty.
 
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harmny

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Cyberpunk is a very rare case and I think people seem to miss that point. Most AAA games don't release in such a bad state like Cyberpunk did.

Witcher 3, Skyrim and other AAA open world games have released with some bugs and glitches but nothing to the extent that we saw from cyberpunk.

short term memory?



i had a ps3 and those two games were horrible. gta 5 dipped to 20 all the time and skyrim had those lagging issues that they never fixed. both were universally praised. 90+ metacritic.

i'm not saying cyberpunk launch is great but people acting as if this never happened before are delusional.
 
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YeulEmeralda

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CDPro trying to throw Sony under the bus is what got CP2077 delisted. Someone at Sony realised that they had a PR moment sticking up for gamers.

I would love it if MS/Nintendo/Sony come up with a refund system like Steam but I'm not optimistic.
 
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short term memory?



i had a ps3 and those two games were horrible. gta 5 dipped to 20 all the time and skyrim had those lagging issues that they never fixed. both were universally praised. 90+ metacritic.

i'm not saying cyberpunk launch is great but people acting as if this never happened before are delusional.
Those games were sold mostly in the physical disc age. The copies were already out just like hoe CP2077 physical copies are still sold.
Also GTA5 dropping to 20 fps is not considered broken at PS3 time because all the other games ran at 10 fps.
 
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dyergram

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I don’t think I’ve played a console game that crashes as much as cb did (haven’t played since any of the major patches waiting for next gen) all ps5 games have been a bit crashey tbf. I think any game that crashed that much should be removed from sale I think that most company’s that are releasing that many skus at once should take heed tbh and this is probably a good argument in favour of timed exclusivity in the future.
 
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cormack12

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Just correcting YOU good buddy. Not defending anything, more of a statement of fact. But really in the grand scheme of this conversation removing CP2077 from the PS store makes sense in context of the wording of their refund policy. No it's not perfect or ANYWHERE close but you can't direct everyone to get a refund and at the same time say your product isn't faulty.

Depends on what your threshold is I guess. Not sure if you play but do you remember the black crash screens in BF4 for example? There were weeks where the multiplayer was fucked completely. Then rubber banding and black screens in vehicles etc. Was an absolute mess.

I also think a lot of people supported it because they didn't quite realise CP2077 was never going to be 'future gta v', so used the pressure to get a refund on a poor purchasing decision.

All in all the whole situation is stupid to me. There are too many ambiguities and different tiers of what makes a game unplayable to people and how to know if users are experiencing specific issues or embellishing things for their own gain.

I think even with warranties the supplier gets an opportunity to fix the product before refund territory?
 
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Endless Fluff

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It won't have an effect on anything.

Just like Steam's refund policy back then had no impact on the industry, even so it made publishers and devs sweat bullets as everyone believed that it will bring change to all online stores including consoles.
 

D.Final

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First thread here. Been thinking about the long term effects of cyberpunk. A few years ago, from about 2013-2015, games coming out broken was the norm, not the exception. That changed obviously, but i feel like cyberpunk could change the way information is rolled out pre-release, and maybe even the amount of time big games spend cooking.

Id imagine the games removal from psn spooked some publishers. Will we see less early release date announcements, with more publishers taking the “when its ready”’approach that is so popular among the independent scene?
Will we see less actual gameplay until a game is extremely close to launch so that no one has unrealistic expectations?


The flood gates are open now, and I'm not sure if they can be shut. If cyberpunk
Was removed for being broken, and people will have come to expect digital refunds on consoles for broken games, whats to stop battlefield 6 from being removed if the multiplayer doesnt work for a while like battlefield 4? Or if starfield comes out with bugs and lots of hard crashes? Would mass effect andromeda had been removed if it came out recently in the busted state it launched in?

Conversely this might not change anything. Cyberpunks broken release will be a flash in the pan. Unrealistic release dates that will inevitably be pushed back will be announced far too early. Devs will still continue to show unrealistic gameplay footage only to severely cut features and downgrade visuals closer to launch. I think, in a post covid world, games will still launch incredibly buggy. Hell, call of duty is supposed to be rock solidyet black ops cold war hard crashed on me twice on series x.

(im not here to shit on cyberpunk, i actually quite like the game, but i have to acknowledge the rough state it launched in)
If a game is broken, then it is a good choice.
 
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SlimySnake

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Nah, CD Project is an indie publisher. It's easy for sony to give them the finger. They make one game every five years. Sony can live with upsetting them.

Ubisoft, EA, and Activision on the other hand? Nope. If sony even tries to ban their game, those companies will threaten to pull all their other games. All those lucrative year titles full of microtransactions Sony relies on so much.

There is a reason why Sony didnt pull or even offer refunds for games like AC Unity, Fallout 76, Anthem, and Battlefront 2. And had no problems offering refunds for No Mans Sky, another indie game.
 
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Nothing as important as Cyberpunk 2077 will come out as fuked up as that game did. We're talking here about Big Rigs levels of fucked up. I doubt we will see something like that abomination in a very long time

Yeah yeah, the game is perfect on PC and Stadia. No patch needed: 100% perfection. Sure. Good for you, assholes.
 
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ZehDon

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It only got removed, because CDPR told buyers to ak for refund, otherwise it's not going to happened I believe. Also no game probably ever got relased (well Batman City did on PC got removed for similar reasons) in such state, that it was really unplayable...
Correct. Sony has a garbage refund policy, so to avoid having to manually process any requests, they elected to stop selling the game to cover their ass. Cyberpunk being pulled won’t have any repercussions because it being pulled had nothing to do with the game.
 
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Correct. Sony has a garbage refund policy, so to avoid having to manually process any requests, they elected to stop selling the game to cover their ass. Cyberpunk being pulled won’t have any repercussions because it being pulled had nothing to do with the game.
CD Projekt PR team was on some serious ego trip when they anounced full refunds without discusing it to anyone, just like that: I'm the good guy. Sorry i fucked you up. You don't like my shit? Take your money back.

But it's not that easy, and you have witnessed it that it's not that easy: people playing for more than 50 hours and asking for a refund.

That's what i would do too. Are you kiding me?

I'm glad that Sony stood against CD Projekt bullshit. That's more than you could say about some gamers.
 
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Dazraell

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I don't think it will. If CD Projekt wouldn't encourage players to do refunds on Sony's and MS's behalf without working out a proper plan with them, I don't think this would have happened. We had way more broken releases in the past and something like this never have happened before.
 
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ZehDon

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CD Projekt PR team was on some serious ego trip when they anounced full refunds without discusing it to anyone, just like that: I'm the good guy. Sorry i fucked you up. You don't like my shit? Take your money back.

But it's not that easy, and you have witnessed it that it's not that easy: people playing for more than 50 hours and asking for a refund.

That's what i would do too. Are you kiding me?

I'm glad that Sony stood against CD Projekt bullshit. That's more than you could say about some gamers.
Steam, with an automated refund system and clear eligibility guidelines, didn't have any problems with it at all.
Microsoft, with an automated refund system and clear eligibility guidelines, didn't have any problems with it at all. Heck, they even extended their refund window with a "no questions asked" policy for the game within 24 hours of CD Projekt Red's announcement.
GOG, owned by CD Projekt, with an automated refund system and clear eligibility guidelines, obviously didn't have any problems with it.
So, only Sony, who has an infamously terrible refund system with equally terrible guidelines, had a problem with it... because it puts them on the hook, so they elected to just pull the game to save them the effort of dealing with the fallout of their shitty policies.

Do you seriously think in the age of digital purchases, where these companies are posting billion dollar profits, that an secure and easy to use refund system is some marvel of technical engineering? Raise your expectations, friend; you deserve better.
 
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Steam, with an automated refund system and clear eligibility guidelines, didn't have any problems with it at all.
Microsoft, with an automated refund system and clear eligibility guidelines, didn't have any problems with it at all. Heck, they even extended their refund window with a "no questions asked" policy for the game within 24 hours of CD Projekt Red's announcement.
GOG, owned by CD Projekt, with an automated refund system and clear eligibility guidelines, obviously didn't have any problems with it.
So, only Sony, who has an infamously terrible refund system with equally terrible guidelines, had a problem with it... because it puts them on the hook, so they elected to just pull the game to save them the effort of dealing with the fallout of their shitty policies.

Do you seriously think in the age of digital purchases, where these companies are posting billion dollar profits, that an secure and easy to use refund system is some marvel of technical engineering? Raise your expectations, friend; you deserve better.
It was a shit fest, you know it. People where completing the game and pouring 50+ hours in it and then asking for a refund. That's how it is, that's just how the world works.

MS where good with that? I doubt it, they simply don't care and i think that, if they were in a more dominant position ,they wouldn't think twice about getting that broken ass game out their store. Of course, people are going to ask for a refund.

And if the studio behind the game tells you: you don't like it? I'll give your money.

Well, i'll take it after i finish the game. It's what it is. We're gamers, not a ONG.
 
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harmny

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It was a shit fest, you know it. People where completing the game and pouring 50+ hours in it and then asking for a refund. That's how it is, that's just how the world works.

MS where good with that? I doubt it, they simply don't care and i think that, if they were in a more dominant position ,they wouldn't think twice about getting that broken ass game out their store. Of course, people are going to ask for a refund.

And if the studio behind the game tells you: you don't like it? I'll give your money.

Well, i'll take it after i finish the game. It's what it is. We're gamers, not a ONG.
So you are happy that Sony stood against "cdpr bullshit" and that "bullshit" is giving every gamer that wanted it a refund no questions asked. Man sony fanboys are weird
 
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martino

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So you are happy that Sony stood against "cdpr bullshit" and that "bullshit" is giving every gamer that wanted it a refund no questions asked. Man sony fanboys are weird
Imagine same argument when a game is released without shitty copy protection....
i'm irresponsible and nothing prevent me to be a pirate ,i'm not a ONG !
hypocrite pseudo level over 9000 (yes i'm currently into that one a lot lately)
 
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So you are happy that Sony stood against "cdpr bullshit" and that "bullshit" is giving every gamer that wanted it a refund no questions asked. Man sony fanboys are weird
Man, i have read this forum long enough to know that, in a discussion with you about about Cyberpunk2077, i'm fucking done.
I surrender.

Serioulsy. I'm not going to even try.
 
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FranXico

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So you are happy that Sony stood against "cdpr bullshit" and that "bullshit" is giving every gamer that wanted it a refund no questions asked. Man sony fanboys are weird
Every gamer wanted the game shipped in an adequate condition long before they ever wanted a refund.
Every gamer wanted honest reviews that showed the state of the game in every platform, to be able to make an informed decision before spending money on a preorder.

Very easy to use Sony's shitty refund policy to deflect and act like a saint after taking people's preorders money.

Where was that outrage at corporate greed of yours when MS announced they were going to double the fees of XBLG, btw?
 
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D.Final

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Imagine same argument when a game is released without shitty copy protection....
i'm irresponsible and nothing prevent me to be a pirate ,i'm not a ONG !
hypocrite pseudo level over 9000 (yes i'm currently into that one a lot lately)
Apply this to Bethesda games
 

harmny

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Every gamer wanted the game shipped in an adequate condition long before they ever wanted a refund.
Every gamer wanted honest reviews that showed the state of the game in every platform, to be able to make an informed decision before spending money on a preorder.

Very easy to use Sony's shitty refund policy to deflect and act like a saint after taking people's preorders money.

Where was that outrage at corporate greed of yours when MS announced they were going to double the fees of XBLG, btw?

Yeah they didn't ship the game on an adequate condition on consoles. So they decided that if people spent money getting the game and they are not happy they could get their money back.

This is not about looking like a saint. This is not some pr bullshit they are actually giving everyone a refund even people that finished the game. And if your copy is physical you can even keep the game if you wanted to because they give you your money back first and then ask you to return it. I really don't see how haters can criticize that decision but here we are.

What outrage? I'm not here to fight against corporate greed. Life is not black and white
 

D.Final

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Yeah they didn't ship the game on an adequate condition on consoles. So they decided that if people spent money getting the game and they are not happy they could get their money back.

This is not about looking like a saint. This is not some pr bullshit they are actually giving everyone a refund even people that finished the game. And if your copy is physical you can even keep the game if you wanted to because they give you your money back first and then ask you to return it. I really don't see how haters can criticize that decision but here we are.

What outrage? I'm not here to fight against corporate greed. Life is not black and white
And there's still some fan that workings for adding removed things with mods