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[BocoDragon]

The main problem with the game's treatment of Tifa is that it gives no reason for her to actually like Cloud beyond her roping him into promising to adhere to some archaic gender trope she had internalised. Then she becomes this woman-as-saviour figure who manages to literally pull him out of psychic turmoil.

So yeah, work on that Remake team.

It's been a long time since I played FFVII, but I always got the impression that all the relationships are barely there on screen, and are mostly read into by the imagination of the players.

I agree that Tifa has no good reason to like Cloud... but by the same token, I'm not entirely sure why Cloud likes Tifa. Or Cloud likes Aerith. Or Aerith likes Cloud. The narrative seems abstracted enough that they never directly address reasons for attraction. It just kind of made sense back then that these little gendered polygons would "fall in love" after interacting with one another for so long. But it never actually fleshed out their reasons for attraction as a modern game would necessarily need to. You actually have people debating whether or not Tifa and Cloud were an item, were sleeping together, or it was just a will they-won't they situation. No game narrative later than this would be so interpretative.

It could have just been the English translation... but I thought the detail of characterization was actually a step back from the more definitive characters of VI, or the deliberate crafting of romance in VIII.

It's not necessarily a bad thing... I think the way that we were allowed to project our own reading onto these tiny polygon puppets was something special. But Square Enix has a LOT of adaptation to do to flesh out these characters into a modern narrative.

 

[stargateheaven]

I'm interested to see whether the transvestite/Honey Bee Inn quest is in the game. Doesn't it get implied Cloud has sex with men at least twice in that segment?

that whole honeybee inn scene with the half-naked guys will be gone. I'm sure of it.

 

[Wazzy]

It's been a long time since I played FFVII, but I always got the impression that all the relationships are barely there on screen, and are mostly read into by the imagination of the players.

I agree that Tifa has no good reason to like Cloud... but by the same token, I'm not entirely sure why Cloud likes Tifa. Or Cloud likes Aerith. Or Aerith likes Cloud. The narrative seems abstracted enough that they never directly address reasons for attraction. It just kind of made sense back then that these little gendered polygons would "fall in love" after interacting with one another for so long. But it never actually fleshed out their reasons for attraction as a modern game would necessarily need to.

It could have just been the English translation... but I thought the characterization was actually a step back from the more definitive characters of VI, or the deliberate crafting of romance in VIII.

It's not necessarily a bad thing... I think the way that we were allowed to project our own reading onto these tiny polygon puppets was something special. But Square Enix has a LOT of adaptation to do to flesh out these characters into a modern narrative.

I think with Aeris it had to do with her initial attraction for Cloud because she was reminded of her first love but the more she was around Cloud she began to have feelings for him and see he was hiding a lot.

The issue with Tifa is that she starts the game with these feelings and it comes off rushed, especially once we see where they stemmed from.

Either way, VII's romance isn't great because they built it around the idea that you could choose Cloud's love interest therefore the focus get's split.

 

[Plywood]

Boyeee!!!

 

[stargateheaven]

I really hope Cid's attitude isn't changed in the remake. I like him as their asshole who swears all the time. People like that exist, no need to tiptoe around it. Plus with an attitude like that, my imagination filled in alot of his back story for me.

 

[BocoDragon]

I really hope Cid's attitude isn't changed in the remake. I like him as their asshole who swears all the time. People like that exist, no need to tiptoe around it. Plus with an attitude like that, my imagination filled in alot of his back story for me.

Yes. Cid + Shera clearly read as "problematic, abusive, co-dependant relationship" even back then... so you have to ask why they showed it back then, and why they'd need to cut that out now. Did we shift the aim of our escapist media to only show positive role models?

Up next, a remake of Married With Children where Al Bundy is a stand up father and husband!

Having said that, in a more fleshed out, modern portrayal of Cid, I would expect the narrative to subtly censure him for his abusive ways.

I think with Aeris it had to do with her initial attraction for Cloud because she was reminded of her first love but the more she was around Cloud she began to have feelings for him and see he was hiding a lot.

The issue with Tifa is that she starts the game with these feelings and it comes off rushed, especially once we see where they stemmed from.

Either way, VII's romance isn't great because they built it around the idea that you could choose Cloud's love interest therefore the focus get's split.

Yeah, that's definitely part of it.

 

[Plywood]

Mr. Worldwide!?

 

[anaron]

I really hope Cid's attitude isn't changed in the remake. I like him as their asshole who swears all the time. People like that exist, no need to tiptoe around it. Plus with an attitude like that, my imagination filled in alot of his back story for me.

yeah I'm really annoyed by this trend of people needing characters to be halo'd, flawless creatures. No thanks.

 

[Ferr986]

I really hope Cid's attitude isn't changed in the remake. I like him as their asshole who swears all the time. People like that exist, no need to tiptoe around it. Plus with an attitude like that, my imagination filled in alot of his back story for me.

I don't think they'll change his character, but they probably should tone down the scenes when he's an abusive ass with Shera. I mean, they can't totally delete these scenes because it's part of how his character evolves but tone them down a little, not only Cid but also Shera submisive treatment against it

 

[BocoDragon]

I don't think they'll change his character, but they probably should tone down the scenes when he's an abusive ass with Shera. I mean, they can't totally delete these scenes because it's part of how his character evolves but tone them down a little, not only Cid but also Shera submisive treatment against it

They just need to cut from Cid's abuse to the rest of the FFVII team cringing like "awkward........"

 

[Star Falcon]

PC gone mad in here.

VII made a few missteps with its cast that could be handled more sensibly now, but it was ambitious atleast which is more than i can say for some other titles in the series. Its edginess / weirdness made it memorable - its a game not a self-help booklet!

 

[SomeRandomWeirdGuy]

I can understand not wanting the sexualization and camera angles and all that, but I just can't abide by the people that think Tifa's boobs should get shrunk. There are so few busty female characters with actual character in video games, that I just can't understand wanting to change that aspect of her character, especially in a game where there are already women in the main cast with "normal" boobs. Women in real life exist with "disproportionate" breasts, and I don't think they'd want characters like them scrubbed away because you can't take them seriously.

Her outfit, sure, I get that. I personally don't like her Advent Children outfit at all (too blah and monochrome), but something more in that vein I understand. The busty just deserve non-fanservice representation too.

And in regards to Cid, I hope his edges aren't smoothed away too much. Barrett though could probably use a bit of smoothing, or at least a bit of delocalizing.

 

[duckroll]

PC gone mad in here.

Cool contribution.

 

[AGoodODST]

Were there any other minorities in the game other than Barret? I can't remember. Anyway his dialogue was atrocious most of the time so the game isn't winning any points there.

And yeah, there are female party members but they all fit under the same body type, unlike the males who generally show more diverse builds.

It's not really doing that much worthy of praise.

 

[Ferr986]

They just need to cut from Cid's abuse to the rest of the FFVII team cringing like "awkward........"

More like them calling him out for being an ass with her wife. Also make her not as submisive and actually opose him, it would sshow better their broken relationship IMO.

I can understand not wanting the sexualization and camera angles and all that, but I just can't abide by the people that think Tifa's boobs should get shrunk. There are so few busty female characters with actual character in video games, that I just can't understand wanting to change that aspect of her character, especially in a game where there are already women in the main cast with "normal" boobs. Women in real life exist with "disproportionate" breasts, and I don't think they'd want characters like them scrubbed away because you can't take them seriously.

Her outfit, sure, I get that. I personally don't like her Advent Children outfit at all (too blah and monochrome), but something more in that vein I understand. The busty just deserve non-fanservice representation too.

And in regards to Cid, I hope his edges aren't smoothed away too much. Barrett though could probably use a bit of smoothing, or at least a bit of delocalizing.

Those things were way too huge. It's not like they maker her flat chested but they need to shrunk them. There's far less represented female body types that big breasted girls in gaming anyways.

Also, if it helps people accept her character more, it's a good trade to me.

I think Barret wil be fine, no way they translate him the say way they did in the 90's.

 

[zoukka]

You found a scene where he's abusive to a woman he lives with and strangers to be the moment you discovered he was the greatest of all time character?

I mean...what...?

I was 10.

 

[encephalon]

One black guy and female representation in a genre that has historically had a lot of female representation isn't really "progressive." It's a little bit incredible that we got a black main character in 1997, though.

They'll have to change Barrett's dialogue first. lol.

The "flavor" of his English language dialogue is largely an invention of the localization.

 

[Dremark]

More like them calling him out for being an ass with her wife. Also make her not as submisive and actually opose him, it would sshow better their broken relationship IMO.

Those things were way too huge. It's not like they maker her flat chested but they need to shrunk them. There's far less represented female body types that big breasted girls in gaming anyways.

Also, if it helps people accept her character more, it's a good trade to me.

I think Barret wil be fine, no way they translate him the say way they did in the 90's.

I don't believe Cid and She's were actually married in FF7, all he wasn't portrayed well in his dealings with her at all, it made him look verbally abusive and the fact that She's tolerated it rather than feeding into it further highlighted the flaws in his character.

Honestly I've never liked Tifa's design, but those attributes are a part of her image and I don't really see an issue with them staying. You already have other female characters who are more modestly sized, if people value diversity rather than just the removal of something they find unpleasant I don't see any reason to change.

 

[Dremark]

One black guy and female representation in a genre that has historically had a lot of female representation isn't really "progressive." It's a little bit incredible that we got a black main character in 1997, though.

The "flavor" of his English language dialogue is largely an invention of the localization.

Honestly I think it's kind of ridiculous they felt the need to turn him into Mr T. I guess I wouldn't really take issue with it if that's the way his character originally was but it honestly seemed like a dated joke even back then.

 

[Liethe]

Some of you guys are absolutely off your rocker saying her chest is somehow abnormally huge. Large, sure. But that ain't no crime. I'd say Mika from SFV for example is way more endowed. Laura is a given.

What I'm saying is, Tifa is fine as is.

Spoiler

DAMN fine, boyeee!

 

[Dark Cloud]

I don't understand why Square would be applauded, when it's just a remake of an old game. The game is what it is with the characters it had when it was created in the 90's.

 

[Yabberwocky]

Some of you guys are absolutely off your rocker saying her chest is somehow abnormally huge. Large, sure. But that ain't no crime. I'd say Mika from SFV for example is way more endowed. Laura is a given.

What I'm saying is, Tifa is fine as is.

Spoiler

DAMN fine, boyeee!

Mika's well-endowed, but fairly in proportion - and suitably muscled! It's never going to happen, but a more muscled Tifa would be awesome. I don't really have a problem with Tifa's in-game model, either, but her CGI model is absolutely hilarious.

Give that poor woman a sports bra, Square, mother of god.

 

[Ferr986]

I don't believe Cid and She's were actually married in FF7, all he wasn't portrayed well in his dealings with her at all, it made him look verbally abusive and the fact that She's tolerated it rather than feeding into it further highlighted the flaws in his character.

Honestly I've never liked Tifa's design, but those attributes are a part of her image and I don't really see an issue with them staying. You already have other female characters who are more modestly sized, if people value diversity rather than just the removal of something they find unpleasant I don't see any reason to change.

No, they weren't sorry about that. I don't think Shera tolerating it the the point of being submisive further reinforces Cid's flaws. Mind you, I'm not saying she should be always confronting Cid.. just changing a little the approach.

About Tifa, mind you I said toned down, and I'm also particulary speaking about FMV Tifa.

For example, I think they got her better in Dissidia (both in-game and CG).

 

[novabolt]

Barret doesn't even look American Footballer huge, I was surprised to find out he wasn't boss. What I'm trying to say is that the Barret's size is just stupid and they really need to sort him out for the 7 remake.

 

[Shredderi]

Visually I've always liked Tifa's original design (except for the CG model. The tits on that model are way too much lol). It's just that the original costume doesn't make much sense with her tight looking miniskirt since she is a martial artist. I don't think that costume would be too well received today with more realistic 3D-graphics. I wouldn't mind it that much for nostalgia reasons (the only reason, I promise) but I'd definitely be up for a more "logical" design.

 

[SOLDIER]

I can understand not wanting the sexualization and camera angles and all that, but I just can't abide by the people that think Tifa's boobs should get shrunk. There are so few busty female characters with actual character in video games, that I just can't understand wanting to change that aspect of her character, especially in a game where there are already women in the main cast with "normal" boobs. Women in real life exist with "disproportionate" breasts, and I don't think they'd want characters like them scrubbed away because you can't take them seriously.

Her outfit, sure, I get that. I personally don't like her Advent Children outfit at all (too blah and monochrome), but something more in that vein I understand. The busty just deserve non-fanservice representation too.

And in regards to Cid, I hope his edges aren't smoothed away too much. Barrett though could probably use a bit of smoothing, or at least a bit of delocalizing.

It's baffling how so many people can't seem to discern the difference between "large" and "comically large", especially when we have screenshot examples in this very thread.

There's a way to make a sexually appealing female character with ample attributes, but still depict them in a way that is modestly acceptable. The problem is exceeding the design to the point that it's DOA/Senran Kagura-levels of masturbatory fuel, where any attempts to take the character seriously are thrown out the window.

Street Fighter V is a good recent example, because it has an example of both scenarios: they actually adjusted Cammy's design to give her a more appropriately toned physique and even cut down on the number of ass shots, while still keeping her design intact. On the other end of the spectrum, Chun-Li has gotten an increased cup size or two, which often looks ridiculous and was only elevated further with the player 2 glitch. Even Mika wasn't so bad by comparison, because they at least gave her a hefty, muscular body that could reasonably support her massive Mikas.

Laura is....well, Laura.

 

[{insert code here}]

Depends on the writing. I'm not expecting something verbatim from the original but I hope they don't overlook the subtleties of the original. Even Cait Sith had pretty deep and poignant moments and he was a robot (sort of). I hope they maintain the strong character development of the original that in many ways hasn't been matched in RPG games since.

 

[SOLDIER]

Re: Cid and his abusive tendencies.

Last I checked, people didn't have a problem loving characters with overly flawed, inherently shitty traits, if not downright evil. Look how many people love Jaime Lannister from Game of Thrones, for reference.

Cid's verbal abuse toward Shera is never highlighted in a positive light. Granted, I would like the other characters to call him out on in more in the Remake, but it's not exactly a persistent thing with the character either. The whole thing also reaches a bittersweet conclusion when Cid realizes how awful he's been and that Shera was right the whole time. It's a really heartbreaking moment that I would hate to see get removed.

 

[GlassEmpires]

I want more diversity than just characters. Put in a fighting game engine and do Tifa justice when she "fights" Scarlet on the cannon. Take the one from Ehrgreiz if you have to.

 

[SOLDIER]

I want more diversity than just characters. Put in a fighting game engine and do Tifa justice when she "fights" Scarlet on the cannon. Take the one from Ehrgreiz if you have to.

It's CyberConnect so what we obviously need is a "Press X to shut up Scarlet" button prompt.

 

[Depths of Orion]

I just realized we'll be getting a remade vincent in this game and that makes me so happy. One of the coolest characters in FF history

 

[Dremark]

No, they weren't sorry about that. I don't think Shera tolerating it the the point of being submisive further reinforces Cid's flaws. Mind you, I'm not saying she should be always confronting Cid.. just changing a little the approach.

About Tifa, mind you I said toned down, and I'm also particulary speaking about FMV Tifa.

For example, I think they got her better in Dissidia (both in-game and CG).

They weren't sorry about what? The situation is that she did something that ruined his dream and he's bitter and angry about it. It's not portrayed as a positive character trait at all am him realizing that he was wrong for acting that way was the main point of his character development and growth.

You can argue that Cid was still overall portrayed in a positive light and that otherwise he was a likable character and I'll agree with you. His treatment of Sheraton was never portrayed in a positive light and the whole point of his growth was to grow, let the past go and realize that he was wrong for treating her this way.

If he was portrayed in a positive light for treating her this way I could at least understand why someone would find it objectionable, but that's clearly not the case here.

Tifa in the majority of the FMVs honestly looked ridiculous even back then. It's not that I find her design distasteful (although I do) but she wasn't consistent with the character models or even with the other FMVs. If they kept her roughly in line with say her battle model I'd say that's fine. They could also have them fluctuate randomly between large to head size if they want to capture the feel of the original game.

 

[Lights and Waves]

No, they weren't sorry about that. I don't think Shera tolerating it the the point of being submisive further reinforces Cid's flaws. Mind you, I'm not saying she should be always confronting Cid.. just changing a little the approach.

About Tifa, mind you I said toned down, and I'm also particulary speaking about FMV Tifa.

For example, I think they got her better in Dissidia (both in-game and CG).

This gif is fucking perfect. This is exactly what I want her to look like in the remake. I really can't stand that goofy Advent Children costume. Why is she wearing a leather apron?

Either way, save the Advent Children costume for the inevitable sequel to FF7R. The character costumes from FF7 should remain close to the source material.

Except for Aerith's. That outfit is a 90s abomination.

 

[Andrew Evenstar]

No. No one cared before, and they won't know.
The diversity in FFVII isn't a big deal.

It's not a big deal that FFXV has a male main cast.

It wasn't a big deal when FFXIII had a female main character


RE5 was attacked because it had mostly black zombies.
Wouldn't it be more racist if AFRICA didn't have mostly black people?

 

[YankeeDonB]

I think this is all a real stretch. VII had interesting characters, but even if Barret is de-blaxploitated, and the camera does less leering at Tifa, there's nothing remarkably progressive about the cast. Clean it up in a few simple ways and it won't be regressive either, which is just fine.

A few other thoughts - Even in newer renditions of the character, it makes no sense that a martial artist is wearing a full skirt. Give me a break SE. Give Tifa some shorts instead. Or go the other way and make it a loin cloth 0_O

Cid is an abusive bastard. Not beyond redemption of some sort, but none-the-less. Games SHOULD be able to depict such characters, although the balance can be tricky. Basically, Cid is the PS1 RPG version of the Bloody Baron. What's he going to be like in the 21st century? I imagine they'll warm him up a lot, and, to the extent they do, he may end up a pretty flat character if they can't replace his jerkiness with something else. He may become the stereotypical cranky old mechanic with a heart of gold.

 

[Ferr986]

They weren't sorry about what? The situation is that she did something that ruined his dream and he's bitter and angry about it. It's not portrayed as a positive character trait at all am him realizing that he was wrong for acting that way was the main point of his character development and growth.

woops sorry, I meant "they weren't, sorry about that" as a response about Cid and Shera being married.

It's time to stop posting from mobile for me..

And yeah I can't disagree with a lot of you say, basically because other than those scenes I love Cid. Guess my problem is Shera more than him.

This gif is fucking perfect. This is exactly what I want her to look like in the remake. I really can't stand that goofy Advent Children costume. Why is she wearing a leather apron?

Either way, save the Advent Children costume for the inevitable sequel to FF7R. The character costumes from FF7 should remain close to the source material.

I agree. I mean I understand the problems about the skirt part and I would also understand if they redesign that, but I really dislike the AC outfit. it's a mess design wise.

 

[SOLDIER]

This gif is fucking perfect. This is exactly what I want her to look like in the remake. I really can't stand that goofy Advent Children costume. Why is she wearing a leather apron?

Either way, save the Advent Children costume for the inevitable sequel to FF7R. The character costumes from FF7 should remain close to the source material.

Except for Aerith's. That outfit is a 90s abomination.

At first I thought they actually gave her shorts here: the back fabric where a pantyshot would conceivably be would suggest that.

That really would be the best thing they could do with the Remake: keep the same look of the skirt, but have it so that it's actually a shorts variant.

 

[Dremark]

woops sorry, I meant "they weren't, sorry about that" as a response about Cid and Shera being married.

It's time to stop posting from mobile for me..

I post from mobile and make typos on occasion too, no worries, it happens.

 

[Barrel Cannon]

LMAO, man I hope they don't change his dialogue. It's part of what made his character for me.

 

[Infinite_Daremo]

I just realized we'll be getting a remade vincent in this game and that makes me so happy. One of the coolest characters in FF history

Same Limit Breaks though = Pointless

I always loved the style of Vincent when I was younger but every one of his transformations were terrible.

 

[Cloud7]

Honestly, Final Fantasy VII's cast isn't progressive but it is diverse in its personalities. They can make some tweaks but I hope most of the characterization from the original game returns. I felt that the game did a fantastic job of balancing quirkiness with seriousness.

Tifa worked in a bar. That's why she dressed like that. Fine by me.
I doubt Barret is going to be Mr. T like in the Remake. The scant evidence I've seen show far suggests that.
Cid is an a-hole. He was redeemed in the original game by seeing the error of his ways and making up with Shera in Disc 2. That's good enough to me. Maybe give him more screen time?


Honestly, I loved the way romance was handled. Romance was barely part of the story. The story was waaaaaay more about characters finding themselves in the midst of chaos than any love story. When you're a kid, you don't need much to have feelings for someone nor to have motivation to be successful. Based on life experiences, made sense to me. I'm good with it.

Bring on the Remake! Can't wait.

 

[User123456]

Barret might be full on blaxploitation, but if they change that, then pretty much everything that Barret means to me will be gone. He'll look like Barret, he'll be called Barret... But he won't be Barret, he won't feel like Barret.

I don't think every black character in videogames should be Barret, but let Barret be Barret, please. He's my favorite character in the game, and I don't want him to change. Don't kill my Barret.

Barret Barret Barret.

 

[deriks]

I think that is pretty pointless to we, players, praise about that in this game. It's no thing to praise, it's just a design choice. We can praise if the game works nice. That's it.

A good example of well applied diversity it's Mafia 3, which the player controls a black character and fight for his rights - in his own terms, of course. You don't just control a black character, it has a point to control a black character.

 

[jett]

I don't know if it was "ebonics" but it was notably different than other characters:



Also, while I'm looking:

LOL that's much worse than I remembered. I didn't pay attention to it back then I guess. I wonder what was that translator's deal.

 

[PK Gaming]

Barret might be full on blaxploitation, but if they change that, then pretty much everything that Barret means to me will be gone. He'll look like Barret, he'll be called Barret... But he won't be Barret, he won't feel like Barret.

I don't think every black character in videogames should be Barret, but let Barret be Barret, please. He's my favorite character in the game, and I don't want him to change. Don't kill my Barret.

Barret Barret Barret.

I hate to break it to you man, but they already changed him based on his dialogue in the trailer.

It's not like he'll be completely changed, but his dialogue definitely won't be total garbage anymore which is a total plus for everyone.

 

[Skilletor]

Barret might be full on blaxploitation, but if they change that, then pretty much everything that Barret means to me will be gone. He'll look like Barret, he'll be called Barret... But he won't be Barret, he won't feel like Barret.

I don't think every black character in videogames should be Barret, but let Barret be Barret, please. He's my favorite character in the game, and I don't want him to change. Don't kill my Barret.

Barret Barret Barret.

And nothing of value will be lost.

 

[Dremark]

Barret might be full on blaxploitation, but if they change that, then pretty much everything that Barret means to me will be gone. He'll look like Barret, he'll be called Barret... But he won't be Barret, he won't feel like Barret.

I don't think every black character in videogames should be Barret, but let Barret be Barret, please. He's my favorite character in the game, and I don't want him to change. Don't kill my Barret.

Barret Barret Barret.

Are you really going to try and act like the way he spoke in the English version of the game is what made Barret Barret?

Him talking like Mr. T wasn't even originally part if his character, but even if it was it would have been a really minor and superficial trait. He was honestly a good character who took up the responsibility of raising a young girl and trying to make things right in the world. He even grew as a character as the game went on and was man enough to realize that the things he did in the name of resistance were misguided and fights to atone for it.

Honestly if him talking like a parody if a nearly forgotten celeb from years back is the only thing that makes Barret Barret, maybe you don't deserve to have a Barret.

 

[stargateheaven]

LMAO, man I hope they don't change his dialogue. It's part of what made his character for me.

Me too, but i'm sure it'll change. Too many people see him as a stereotype.

 

[Ralemont]

The main problem with the game's treatment of Tifa is that it gives no reason for her to actually like Cloud beyond her roping him into promising to adhere to some archaic gender trope she had internalised. Then she becomes this woman-as-saviour figure who manages to literally pull him out of psychic turmoil.

So yeah, work on that Remake team.

Wait a minute, you're pointing to this as a bad thing?

 

[Dremark]

Wait a minute, you're pointing to this as a bad thing?

Honestly it never made any sense to me considering her background of shunning and lying to him.

The actual way it happened by itself I thought was fine but why it happened never made much sense to me with thier entire relationship being a fabrication.