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Hardware Wired: Next Playstation will be call Playstation 5. More details.

~Fake

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Dec 20, 2018
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I posting some key mentions from the article here.
Perhaps this is wish fulfilment on my behalf, but I really hope to see a robust solution for PlayStation 5 that avoids the 'jet engine' effect that kicks in on many examples of PS4 and PS4 Pro hardware. An emphasis on innovative cooling also opens the door to higher processor frequencies - and may possibly help to put some of the leaked 'Gonzalo' AMD processor specs into context - particularly the very, very high GPU core clocks.
 
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Vawn

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Correlation != causation

Just because XB1 has BC, it doesn't mean it's the reason it failed
Which us exactly what I said. It obviously didn't hurt, but it clearly didn't help much either.

We are fond going back and forth arguing whether these machines should have BC though. They both will. If you want to believe Xbox invented it a d Sony is copying, ignore history, sales data, etc and go right ahead.
 
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ethomaz

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They probably also don't want to use "dedicated", because AMD may have a multi-use function for their cores that they are not ready to speak about. Still hardware accelerated, but the core is not just locked to RT capabilities?
Well that is the same theory some have over the RT Cores and Tensor Cores on RTX are just CUDA Cores to make the work but called it RT Cores for marketing purpose.

After all it is silicon... you give names to that silicon and how many type of operations it can do.
 
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DeepEnigma

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Well that is the same theory some have over the RT Cores and Tensor Cores on RTX are just CUDA Cores to make the work but called it RT Cores for marketing purpose.

After all it is silicon... you give names to that silicon and how many type of operations it can do.
I remember that. As it stands right now, RTX Tensor Cores just sit there in idle doing nothing if RT is off and are unusable for anything else. I wonder if AMD will have more flexibility out of the gate, like a unified process where devs can pick and choose so they don't have wasted silicon if RT is not needed as much in certain situations, and they can push shaders or machine learning through them, etc..
 

Negotiator

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Well that is the same theory some have over the RT Cores and Tensor Cores on RTX are just CUDA Cores to make the work but called it RT Cores for marketing purpose.

After all it is silicon... you give names to that silicon and how many type of operations it can do.
Nope, there's no proof about that. That's like saying NVENC/NVDEC/TMUs/ROPs are plain old CUDA cores. They're not. They're dedicated fixed-function circuitry.

Pascal cards that lack RT cores are much slower with software RT emulation running through CUDA/FP32 cores.

Back in the day, it was possible to emulate pixel shaders via the CPU if you had a GeForce 2 card. It was slow as ass.
 
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ethomaz

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Nope, there's no proof about that. That's like saying NVENC/NVDEC/TMUs/ROPs are plain old CUDA cores. They're not. They're dedicated fixed-function circuitry.

Pascal cards that lack RT cores are much slower with software RT emulation running through CUDA/FP32 cores.

Back in the day, it was possible to emulate pixel shaders via the CPU if you had a GeForce 2 card. It was slow as ass.
The evidence used in the theory is that Pascal cards runs with the same performance Ray-tracing.

TITAN V
30-12-2018, 19:06:48 bfv.exe benchmark completed, 38930 frames rendered in 548.360 s
Average framerate : 70.9 FPS
Minimum framerate : 51.7 FPS
Maximum framerate : 97.4 FPS

RTX 2080 TI
30-12-2018, 19:21:57 bfv.exe benchmark completed, 22472 frames rendered in 317.438 s
Average framerate : 70.7 FPS
Minimum framerate : 55.3 FPS
Maximum framerate : 101.1 FPS


I at time disagreed saying the most probable is that game didn't use RT Cores but it is a theory.
Like people are making here about ray-tracing on PS4 being executed in a multi-purpose hardware unit.
 
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Negotiator

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The evidence used in the theory is that Pascal cards runs with the same performance Ray-tracing.

TITAN V
30-12-2018, 19:06:48 bfv.exe benchmark completed, 38930 frames rendered in 548.360 s
Average framerate : 70.9 FPS
Minimum framerate : 51.7 FPS
Maximum framerate : 97.4 FPS

RTX 2080 TI
30-12-2018, 19:21:57 bfv.exe benchmark completed, 22472 frames rendered in 317.438 s
Average framerate : 70.7 FPS
Minimum framerate : 55.3 FPS
Maximum framerate : 101.1 FPS


I at time disagreed saying the most probable is that game didn't use RT Cores but it is a theory.
Like people are making here about ray-tracing on PS4 being executed in a multi-purpose hardware unit.
If nVidia is lying about RT cores, then a class-action lawsuit against them is possible. We've already had one about the GTX 970 3.5GB fiasco.
 
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DeepEnigma

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If nVidia is lying about RT cores, then a class-action lawsuit against them is possible. We've already had one about the GTX 970 3.5GB fiasco.
Could they be sued for this though? Silicon is silicon, so they can just dedicate CUDA cores to only that specific function and try and pass it off as some coding streamlining excuse, no?
 

Negotiator

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Could they be sued for this though? Silicon is silicon, so they can just dedicate CUDA cores to only that specific function and try and pass it off as some coding streamlining excuse, no?
Nope:



If someone can prove it by dissecting the actual chip (gonna need an electron microscope for that), that's an excellent opportunity to gain money.
 
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Endless Fluff

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Doesnt the xbox conteoller already do this with rumble. Like if you drive on a diffrent surface the controller reflects that with how it rumbles. Also they just announced the CPU cores and threads somewhere. I think Fujitsu. Seems like they are giveing out a lot of info before reveal
One is "adaptive triggers" that can offer varying levels of resistance to make shooting a bow and arrow feel like the real thing—the tension increasing as you pull the arrow back—or make a machine gun feel far different from a shotgun.
The way I understand this is that the trigger gets easier to press depending on situation, like slipping tires on mud would make it easier to press just like a FFB wheel gets easier to turn, because the tires lack grip. I would love to know how they're doing this.

This is pretty much Force Feedback and can't be compared to the impulse trigger from the XBO gamepad.
 
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Rolling_Start

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Again, where does he say that he is using DEDICATED ray tracing hardware cores? No where. Why? Because they don’t. They just use the GPU. Hence „accelerated“ by the GPU, and not dedicated hardware cores for ray tracing.
Every GPU could do ray tracing. Doesn’t mean anything.

The trick is to have DEDICATED ray tracing hardware core!l, which the next Xbox WILL do, whereas the PS5 Will NOT do.
You don't necessarily want "DEDICATED" ray tracing cores in your GPU once more general purpose (or existing) units can be adequate evolved to take on the role!
 

Rolling_Start

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MS trialled that back on the 360 with Fable 2 (and possibly some other games) years before this gen even started.

And they won't have been the first people to be thinking about delivering the most immediately needed data first. These are the kind of ideas that computer scients have enjoyed thinking about for decades.
 
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FranXico

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MS trialled that back on the 360 with Fable 2 (and possibly some other games) years before this gen even started.
And Sony with Uncharted 3, Konami with MGS4, etc.

And they won't have been the first people to be thinking about delivering the most immediately needed data first. These are the kind of ideas that computer scients have enjoyed thinking about for decades.
Agreed.
 

Rolling_Start

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But aren't we 5+ years from this being possible?
Honestly don't know! I don't know enough about making ray tracing fast or about how gpus work at a lowish level to know when it'll happen, but I think it will.

We're already seeing a significant speedup on Turing from Pascal for ray tracing even without RTX cores.

[NOTE THAT DLSS IS ACTIVE IN THE BOTTOM GRAPH!]



And that's with DLSS making things look better for RTX than it otherwise would (probably half res?). Now add in some mixed precision modes (fp16 matrix to fp32) to limit the loss of the RT cores, and add some kind of accelerated int8 (maybe 4x int8 at int32 rate) and who knows how close you could get?

Plus ... I mean, you already have lots of interpolation units in texture samplers that might be adaptable to step along rays with fp16 precision and feed a collection of steps back in a compute shader for rapid fire testing. (I say this because I'm sure I've read somewhere about texture samplers being involed in some kind of AMD patent)

It's early days, but why would you want your int8, int 16 and mixed precision abilities walling off from general purpose use? If you make it available somone's going to use it for something cool down the line, and it makes optimisation on a per game or even per scene level far more achievable ... or at least it seems that way to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Heck, I think it's about time we had programmable sample positions for rasterization too.
 

Justin9mm

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Are you fucking dense? You think the ps5 is going to have a the power of a $1000 GPU and sell for under $500?

Why are console only people so delusional?I love my consoles too but man yall make it hard not to laugh at you.
LOL... The PS5 Pro will do this if the developer wants it! We already see 60fps Dynamic 4K on the one X so what are you smoking?? Are you dense? Have you heard of optimisation? The Pro model won't also be under $500.
 

Justin9mm

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Are you fucking dense? You think the ps5 is going to have a the power of a $1000 GPU and sell for under $500?

Why are console only people so delusional?I love my consoles too but man yall make it hard not to laugh at you.
By the way I have a mid tier gaming PC. God forbid a PC Gamer would enjoy playing on a console! I have a much better time sittin back on my lounge on my 75inch 4K OLED with my games looking glorious all up in my face!
 

Shangounchained

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I don't want to hear about raytracing and ssd bullshit show us ram capacity that's the elephant in the room not haptic feedbacks.
 
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PS5 will sold me if this happend

- No censored things
- 7 Exclusive games that are interesting to me
- Gravity rush thing
- Another Japan Studio Game
- PSN Store compatible with download Games of PS4


For me i will waiting 2 years or more to get the PS5.... With the experience of Xbox 360... i dont wanna be a hardware tester in launch day.
 
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ZywyPL

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I remember that. As it stands right now, RTX Tensor Cores just sit there in idle doing nothing if RT is off and are unusable for anything else. I wonder if AMD will have more flexibility out of the gate, like a unified process where devs can pick and choose so they don't have wasted silicon if RT is not needed as much in certain situations, and they can push shaders or machine learning through them, etc..

RT cores and Tensor cores are completely different and separate things. You can still use DLSS without RT (which nobody actually does as the cards already do 4K60), or you can use DLSS along with RT to improve the overall performance. Or you can use RT alone as well, just with worse performance/at lower resolution.

All that being said, I'm very curious how the RT implementation and performance in next-gen consoles will turn out - 40K30 is a given, let's be realistic and simply forget all the 8K and 120FPS PR BS, it ain't gonna happen - I can see MS opting for 4K60 in their 1st party games like they already do, since they are fast-paced and/or heavily MP-focused, but I don't expect wonders from 3rd party devs, with the exception of games that already do 60FPS like BF, CoD, FIFA etc, and Sony 1st party cinematic/immersive games possibly still sitting on 4K30 in favor of even better graphics, animations, physics etc. But even if we consider that all games will be 4K60 - that's still rasterization we are talking about, not RT. So the question is - if there will be enough hardware RT performance for 4K? Or will it be restricted to FullHD? Because with the mid-gen refreshes and multiple performance modes within the games, I can imagine next-gen titles having multiple graphics/performance profiles like this :

-8K 30FPS,
-4K 60FPS,
-FHD 120FPS,
-FHD RT 60FPS,

That's the only option I can see them pulling the 8K or 120FPS BTW. But given how even the most powerful GPUs on the planet barely handle RT at FHD 60, it's really hard for me to imagine next-gen consoles doing more than that, especially given how behind AMD is compared to NV, and that it will be their first RT implementation to begin with. But who knows, maybe they will do it better, never say never - like you said, there's a lot of wasted silicon on the RTX cards, putting more RT cores instead of Tensor cores could greatly increase the RT performance,. And since RT offloads so much of the actually heaviest calculations from CUDA cores, the latter are also sitting somewhat in idle, while some chunk of them could also be replaced with RT cores, for even more RT performance. I just cannot fight the feeling NV screwed up big times when balancing the Turing architecture, so yeah, there is a chance AMD will learn from their mistakes, especially given the consoles are closed architecture which makes everything so much simpler due to no market fragmentation.

The other option I can see for RT, is the games still heavily relying on sub-4K resolutions with upscalled/dynamic/reconstructed/checkerboarded solutions, so having just enough RT performance for 1440-1600p, and then bumping the image to "4K".


However, with that said, doubling down on cooling does seem to be a key aspect of the dev kit design - more so than anything we've seen before.
How so? Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to my simple logic, because of that V-shape the console is losing sooo much functional space in the middle, where a beefy radiator or fan could be put. The very first thing that caught my attention when the dev-kit design was leaked some time ago was exactly the lack of space for the fan, hence I immediately said to myself "this is 100% fake". You can surely use sophisticated fins and heatpipes design in that V-shaped body, but what about the fan? Will they use some sort of laptop-grade screaming tiny fan(s)? Well, as 100+ MLN sold consoles show, you can easily get away with it I guess. But then again, the PS dev-kits almost never resembled the consumer product, not even close.
 
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rofif

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Just please fucking finally add a speakers 3.5mm output to the back of the console. I have a 4k monitor with 3.5mm out that sucks and cuts out.... so I have to use controller audio
 

Bitmap Frogs

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Who works at Polyphony Digital? Babies?


An entire generation of babies. Maybe you and them should go out every once in a while, and maybe do some yard work?
They wouldn't last half an hour.

Gardens are serious business and hard work if you want them looking nice and trim. It pains me not to have one anymore but I don't have the time to take care of it.
 
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Negotiator

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Just please fucking finally add a speakers 3.5mm output to the back of the console. I have a 4k monitor with 3.5mm out that sucks and cuts out.... so I have to use controller audio
I'm afraid analog outputs are dead. Nintendo was the last one that had it with Wii U.
 

Kdad

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Started my biweekly savings account. $30 every 2 week starting now will get me into the right ballpark.
 
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deriks

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DID YOU KNOW?

The PlayStation 5 gets its name from the fact that it is the fifth PlayStation.

But that’s just a theory
But PS5 is not the fifth PlayStation, the Vita is :messenger_grinning_sweat:

And maybe you can even argue that the PlayStation TV is the fifth table console, but I guess that if you count with this, you should count PlayStation X, which is a modified PS2, so it's not fair.
 
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Fractured_Veil

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I really hope they put a lot of time in testing the controllers. I haven't had the best luck with them in the past.
 

ExpandKong

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But PS5 is not the fifth PlayStation, the Vita is :messenger_grinning_sweat:

And maybe you can even argue that the PlayStation TV is the fifth table console, but I guess that if you count with this, you should count PlayStation X, which is a modified PS2, so it's not fair.

 
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joe_zazen

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PS5 will sold me if this happend

- No censored things
- 7 Exclusive games that are interesting to me
- Gravity rush thing
- Another Japan Studio Game
- PSN Store compatible with download Games of PS4


For me i will waiting 2 years or more to get the PS5.... With the experience of Xbox 360... i dont wanna be a hardware tester in launch day.
i think ive decided to buy a switch on ps5 launch day.
 
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DeepEnigma

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PS5 will sold me if this happend

- No censored things
- 7 Exclusive games that are interesting to me
- Gravity rush thing
- Another Japan Studio Game
- PSN Store compatible with download Games of PS4


For me i will waiting 2 years or more to get the PS5.... With the experience of Xbox 360... i dont wanna be a hardware tester in launch day.
Why wouldn't you use the experience of the PS4 as far as that? Seems weird you would use MS's 360 for an apprehension point to the PS5, and not the PS4.
 
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Breakage

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Good to know Sony is being sensible with the name. If only Microsoft could do the same. Anyway I'm looking forward to seeing what the final console and controller designs will look like. Will it take cues from the V-shaped dev kit? Will it be able to stand vertically? What is the “hole” in the controller for? Will Sony keep the same design language for the PS5's logo?
 
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Why wouldn't you use the experience of the PS4 as far as that? Seems weird you would use MS's 360 for an apprehension point to the PS5, and not the PS4.
PS4 Have issues in hardware in launch day models too.... Remember the the inability to eject the game disc... Xbox one have the same issue too plus the noise and inexplicable ability to reproduce some games, Nintendo Switch the Joycon problem, PS3 the yellow light of the death... Nintendo Wii the problem of reading the game and premature death of the laser because the Disc wii games with dual layer... and many examples.

Im not only focus in Xbox 360.... but the reality this one was the most annoying and shameful.
 
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Endless Fluff

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Why wouldn't you use the experience of the PS4 as far as that? Seems weird you would use MS's 360 for an apprehension point to the PS5, and not the PS4.
Blue light of death
Red line of death
Problems with the disc drive

I think waiting for the 1st revision is a very smart idea. Launch models always have some issues.
 
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