Support NeoGAF

[MercuryLS]

One of the biggest missed opportunities in console gaming is BC will all prior generations. On PC you can buy a game on Steam and know it will run on a PC 10 years from now. With current gen consoles being based on X86, if Sony and MS stick with this architecture, is BC a given without having to have a miniaturized PS4/XB1 included in the PS5/XB2 box? Can BC be handled like PC where things just work due to being on the same architecture, just upgraded?

I know people say that BC isn't super important in the long run, only really in the first year. That may be true to some extent, but it would be better for Sony and MS as far as customer retention goes if they can guarantee BC for future consoles. People will have an incentive to stick with either line in the future and not defect to the other. It also makes buying into DD a lot easier, knowing that your purchases will work with future hardware.

 

[EightBitNate]

Next-gen itself isn't even a given

 

[Narpas Sword0]

Next-gen itself isn't even a given

Came here to post this

 

[ArkkAngel007]

Next-gen itself isn't even a given

There's obviously still a significant market for it. At least one of these companies are making another box.

 

[MercuryLS]

Next-gen itself isn't even a given

That's a good point, for argument sake lets say that PS5/XB2 are definitely coming. Lets say these machines have an upgraded X86 APU, would BC be automatic?

 

[Terbinator]

Xbox 1 says hi.

 

[Eusis]

Next-gen itself isn't even a given

I'm vaguely worried about the PS4 staying in stock on Amazon, but we'll see.

I wouldn't take anything for granted, Microsoft seems like they may be somewhat boneheaded on this, and new technology can always crop up to be more appealing, maybe IBM decides to push seriously for a new, gaming friendly PowerPC processor and maybe even some actual graphics technology. Though frankly it's probably better IBM DOESN'T do that, Watson's one of the most amazing things I've ever read about technologically happening in our lifetime, and I want them to really focus on that.

 

[tipoo]

One of the biggest missed opportunities in console gaming is BC will all prior generations. On PC you can buy a game on Steam and know it will run on a PC 10 years from now. With current gen consoles being based on X86, if Sony and MS stick with this architecture, is BC a given without having to have a miniaturized PS4/XB1 included in the PS5/XB2 box? Can BC be handled like PC where things just work due to being on the same architecture, just upgraded?

It's really not that simple. x86 covers a massive range of architectures, if the next gen consoles (we can stop calling this gen next gen now, right?) don't (and they probably won't, just given the passage of time) use Jaguar based cores they could perform radically differently. Why does that matter if the new ones would be better in performance you ask? Because some optimization may be very specific to the old architecture and not run so well on new ones.

There's also the GPU, which can change completely in just years.

 

[Jigolo]

I'd imagine so.

 

[Chittagong]

Nobody really cares about BC anymore so probably, no.

But generational binary breaks are a pretty antiqued idea. Doesn't happen on PC gaming, doesn't happen on iPad. Console gamers have been conditioned to think they are somehow a necessary evil to keep evolving.

 

[_hekk05]

Inb4 cutting edge technology for next gen coupled with new and improved architecture that overwhelms PC.

But yeah BC is almost confirmed.

 

[rudieboy77]

If they were not going to make the XB1 BC to the 360 with that amount of games the 360 had, they won't ever try again.

 

[Skeff]

Xbox 1 says hi.

Yup, og Xbox and XB1 both x86.

 

[Nightengale]

I think the intention is there, clearly.

Be it MS's original intent of transforming all games purchases linked to your account ( digital ), or Sony's baby steps of Playstation as a service platforming (Now, Cross-Buy, etc), it seems to paint a picture that they want to establish their platform to have the longetivity that can be extended beyond 'Box A for current-gen games.' and 'Box B for next-gen games.'

 

[SwiftDeath]

If they were not going to make the XB1 BC to the 360 with that amount of games the 360 had, they won't ever try again.

Did you miss the part where next-gen [assuming it exists] is to be based on x86 architecture again in this hypothetical?

It would be far easier to produce a compelling BC solution in my opinion then trying to get PowerPC games to work on a x86 machine such as is the case with X360 games on the XB1

 

[malfcn]

Possibly. But they code the games so specific to the hardware per generation that it still won't be easy.

 

[Teletraan1]

Xbox 1 says hi.

Hello Xbox 1 who was X86 and whos successor went to a PowerPC. Hello there. Also hello to MS who doesn't give a fuck.

 

[andrerobot]

I bet next gen is going ARM.

 

[rudieboy77]

Did you miss the part where next-gen [assuming it exists] is to be based on x86 architecture again in this hypothetical?

It would be far easier to produce a compelling BC solution in my opinion then trying to get PowerPC games to work on a x86 machine such as is the case with X360 games on the XB1

Nope I didn't miss anything, they could have made a solution. They were too busy making it run at 720p with Kinect.

 

[ohbabyitsken]

Nah even if it was easy they make too much money from reselling games.

 

[PARANO1A]

Hello Xbox 1 who was X86 and whos successor went to a PowerPC. Hello there.

It begs the question as to why can't every Xbox game work on the One. I'd buy loads of them again digitally, and still have Orta, NG and JSRF on disc.

 

[linkthelove]

I guarantee in the next 6-8 years, both parties are going to develop a streaming only console. The technology right now is amazing. Ps Now, is an experiment Sony is taking to see if the market likes it. And by the time 2020 comes, Majority of the market will have a decent internet connection.

 

[ChrisMahoney]

It's not that simple. Games are programmed for the specific CPUs and GPUs, not general x86.

 

[Narpas Sword0]

If PSN Now works as advertised BC would be straight up stupid.

 

[Orayn]

Maybe. BC involves a lot more than just sharing the same CPU architecture, so a dramatic change in the GPU, memory, or APIs used could complicate things.

Inb4 cutting edge technology for next gen coupled with new and improved architecture that overwhelms PC.

But yeah BC is almost confirmed.

What even..?

Hello Xbox 1 who was X86 and whos successor went to a PowerPC. Hello there. Also hello to MS who doesn't give a fuck.

A lot of that had to do with most Xbox games being very "high level" and doing things through DirectX. They were able to do backwards compatibility through dynamic recompilation because the 360 used DirectX as well and had enough power to manage it. It was still incomplete, imperfect, and had to be enabled on a per-game basis.

 

[Takao]

what if next gen is just phone parts

 

[MercuryLS]

It's not that simple. Games are programmed for the specific CPUs and GPUs, not general x86.

Ok, so is the reason that you have BC on PC due to the DirectX layer? So you're saying that because PS4/XB1 games are coded to the metal, it would be hard to make BC automatic?

 

[El_Chino]

Xbox 1 says hi.

That was more of a Graphics issue going from Nvida to AMD.

 

[_hekk05]

What even..?

What's NeoGaf if we don't dream?

Spoiler

Its never gonna happen.

 

[plainr_]

If they roll with x86 again for next gen.

 

[Chettlar]

It's really not that simple. x86 covers a massive range of architectures, if the next gen consoles (we can stop calling this gen next gen now, right?) don't (and they probably won't, just given the passage of time) use Jaguar based cores they could perform radically differently. Why does that matter if the new ones would be better in performance you ask? Because some optimization may be very specific to the old architecture and not run so well on new ones.

There's also the GPU, which can change completely in just years.

Well of course it's not that simple, but wouldn't it be easier to design next gen around the concept of BC this time?

 

[Orayn]

Ok, so is the reason that you have BC on PC due to the DirectX layer? So you're saying that because PS4/XB1 games are coded to the metal, it would be hard to make BC automatic?

Basically. The more specifically tailored to a single piece of hardware a game is, the harder it'll be to run that game on anything else. It's not impossible, but it's going to be a messy process if the new hardware doesn't provide a surefire way of behaving like the old hardware on a very low level.

What's NeoGaf if we don't dream?

Spoiler

Its never gonna happen.

Probably not, and I really don't see how/why it would.

Well of course it's not that simple, but wouldn't it be easier to design next gen around the concept of BC this time?

Yeah, it would entail doing the next consoles as more of an iPad-style upgrade to the old ones, which is a perfectly viable route for Sony and Microsoft to take.

 

[coldone]

AMD is moving from x86 to ARM.

We dont know how long PCs itself will remain the way we know of. We could be in for a ARM/linux world in 7-8 years.

 

[Dr.brain64]

Free BC = 1% chance
Paid service = 80%
No BC = 20%

Let's just say if I was sony I would make you pay - capitalism

 

[Tobor]

If there are new consoles, and if they still use X86 architecture, then maybe.

 

[TouchMyBox]

what if next gen is just phone parts

What if phone parts stop being "phone parts" and just become regular computer parts?

We're getting Kepler in our ARM chips and ARM in our GeForces this year, afterall.

 

[Orayn]

What if phone parts stop being "phone parts" and just become regular computer parts?

We're getting Kepler in our ARM chips and ARM in our GeForces this year, afterall.

Not to mention x86 in our smartphones, courtesy of Asus!

 

[GamerJM]

I'd say it's likely.

Also, I think next-gen is most definitely a given. The PS4 and Xbox One are already dwarfed in power by the more powerful gaming PCs.

 

[todd360]

what if next gen is just phone parts

Ok i ripped the snapdragon out of my room mates cell phone. What do I do next?

 

[SwiftDeath]

Ok i ripped the snapdragon out of my room mates cell phone. What do I do next?

Do you have duct tape on hand? You're going to need a hell of a lotta duct tape for this.

 

[WolvenOne]

Not necessarily.

Even within the X86 family, architectures can differ dramatically. We don't really know how long the PS4 and X1 will last, and how much GPU and CPU designs could change in that time.

Perhaps we'll switch over to using memristors, or go from silicon to graphene, or we'll figure out how to properly stack chips, or do any number of things that force us to dramatically rework our architecture in or to improve performance.

That said, going X86 will certainly help, a lot.. It just shouldn't be assumed to be a given, yet.

 

[todd360]

Do you have duct tape on hand? You're going to need a hell of a lotta duct tape for this.

Will Gorilla tape work? I got 1 roll of that.

 

[Drainer]

I really hope so.

I was bitterly disappointed we didn't get it this time around.

 

[abtom]

ARM-based next-gen consoles.

inb4 epic meltdowns.

 

[Abdul Hafeez]

Next-gen itself isn't even a given

Yep. I'm sure Nintendo will make another console. But not too sure about Sony or Microsoft. Valve is rapidly becoming kind of a behemoth...it's almost a little scary.

 

[Metfanant]

if we assume that x86 remains the architecture of choice...then yeah there isnt any reason for BC not to exist...

but im sure they will find a way to charge us for it...

 

[Jessie.Bristol]

It begs the question as to why can't every Xbox game work on the One. I'd buy loads of them again digitally, and still have Orta, NG and JSRF on disc.

Well, the original Xbox may have been X86 but it used an NVIDIA GPU. So emulation may still be required if they were to port any Xbox game to Xbox One.

 

[Orayn]

Well, the original Xbox may have been X86 but it used an NVIDIA GPU. So emulation may still be required if they were to port any Xbox game to Xbox One.

With the original Xbox, you're also getting to the point where it's not going to be a valuable feature for the vast majority of people who own the console. Same reason the 3DS doesn't have a GBA slot even though GBA compatibility is a part of emulating the DS and probably wouldn't be that hard to add.

 

[thefit]

BC died once they figured out they could resell you old games with their emulators, streaming services or HD remakes. You wont see a BC console from Sony ever again.

 

[Chettlar]

Yeah, it would entail doing the next consoles as more of an iPad-style upgrade to the old ones, which is a perfectly viable route for Sony and Microsoft to take.

I hope that's the route they take then.